Andraste_Reborn
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Jul 9, 2024 2:35:02 GMT
You mean if several different companies could also have a 5E D&D license and a multi-year open beta? Yeah, didn't think that's what you meant but that is what it means. Before Baldur's Gate, Bioware had one game of middling quality to their name and one OK sequel of someone else's game. Neither one was anything like an RPG. The D&D license with its built-in fanbase that tracked closely with the users of PC games at the time AND some excellent execution allowed them to grow and flourish. I will not take one thing from Larian, but anyone who thinks they sold the number of games they did primarily because of game mechanics is deluding themselves. 5E is tremendously popular across a wider range of audiences than any previous version of D&D ever was. BG3 also benefited from additional marketing support from WotC/Hasbro in the form of modules, crossover events, etc. The long Early Access period acted like an extended marketing campaign a company like Larian could never have afforded on its own. Doesn't mean that some kind of turn-based or RTWP couldn't do it, but BG3 is not the proof for that. Sorry. Yeah, I'm expecting (and indeed looking forward to!) a wave of BG3 imitators in a few years, but it's wildly unlikely that any of them will be as successful or good as BG3 is. In addition to having the 5th edition license and an extended period of early access, Larian are in a unique position having made multiple RPGs on the engine they used for the game before AND not having a publisher breathing down their necks AND having the reputation BioWare built for the Baldur's Gate series. What will really be interesting is if Larian are able to build on their success for the next Divinity game and the new science fiction IP they're working on now that they've parted ways with Hasbro. They've clearly got incredible talent over there, but also I feel like their tendency toward scope creep is going to bite them one of these days. (Like, more than it already did in the Original Sin games and BG3 Act III.)
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apollexander
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Post by apollexander on Jul 9, 2024 2:44:56 GMT
From GI: "Every time you rank up a companion's Relationship Level, you unlock a skill point to spend specifically on that companion." Curious to see how this works, and what disparity there might be between your favourites & those sent their rooms for half the game. It might be annoying that you have to cater to companions to upgrade them.
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Hrungr
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Post by Hrungr on Jul 9, 2024 2:46:11 GMT
From GI: "Every time you rank up a companion's Relationship Level, you unlock a skill point to spend specifically on that companion." Curious to see how this works, and what disparity there might be between your favourites & those sent their rooms for half the game. I feel like they need to show us what our companion skill tree looks like. That, and they should probably just tell us if we are basically going to be playing with neutered companions if we don't play nice with them. That's a good question - Will their Relationship Level go up, go down, or be tracked differently if we're rivals?
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jul 9, 2024 2:57:49 GMT
I feel like they need to show us what our companion skill tree looks like. That, and they should probably just tell us if we are basically going to be playing with neutered companions if we don't play nice with them. That's a good question - Will their Relationship Level go up, go down, or be tracked differently if we're rivals? Did the friendship/rivalry spectrum in DA2 have a downside for each extreme? I can't remember. I know that there were different benefits for each, but can't recall if there was a cost to moving along the spectrum in any one direction.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 9, 2024 3:03:33 GMT
From GI: "Every time you rank up a companion's Relationship Level, you unlock a skill point to spend specifically on that companion." Curious to see how this works, and what disparity there might be between your favourites & those sent their rooms for half the game. Really? If I'm nice to them for the first half of the game, will skill points be taken away if I treat them like crap for the second half? Hmmm...If I'm not nice, they don't gain any skill points. Does that mean they could die in the game? I'm curious about this. I have a feeling I will treat them like crap for my first playthrough. excellent. Is this going to be like ME2 where I had to complete loyalty missions, in this case have a friendly relationship, for everyone to survive the game?
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Post by Hrungr on Jul 9, 2024 3:12:11 GMT
That's a good question - Will their Relationship Level go up, go down, or be tracked differently if we're rivals? Did the friendship/rivalry spectrum in DA2 have a downside for each extreme? I can't remember. I know that there were different benefits for each, but can't recall if there was a cost to moving along the spectrum in any one direction. It's been a while, I had to look it up myself.
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Post by Sartoz on Jul 9, 2024 4:31:40 GMT
From GI: "Every time you rank up a companion's Relationship Level, you unlock a skill point to spend specifically on that companion." Curious to see how this works, and what disparity there might be between your favourites & those sent their rooms for half the game. It might be annoying that you have to cater to companions to upgrade them.
Yeah.. was thinking about that. I usually find two+ chars I don't care about in a DA game... such as Bull, Vivienne, Blackwall...
I may run into trouble with DAV because of it. Catering to their want to unlock a skill point is silly. I can just see my companions with different skill levels already. It's a forced mechanic upon us. Can anyone envision a speed run?
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Post by Sartoz on Jul 9, 2024 4:40:21 GMT
From GI: "Every time you rank up a companion's Relationship Level, you unlock a skill point to spend specifically on that companion." Curious to see how this works, and what disparity there might be between your favourites & those sent their rooms for half the game. Really? If I'm nice to them for the first half of the game, will skill points be taken away if I treat them like crap for the second half? Hmmm...If I'm not nice, they don't gain any skill points. Does that mean they could die in the game? I'm curious about this. I have a feeling I will treat them like crap for my first playthrough. excellent. Is this going to be like ME2 where I had to complete loyalty missions, in this case have a friendly relationship, for everyone to survive the game?
Hey! you might break the game 'cause I don't see the Bio devs looking at this possibility. Remember the game is linear and mission oriented.... can't complete the mission you can't level up or go to the next mission... I think I'll try it at the beginning and see what happens.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 9, 2024 6:28:32 GMT
Dragon Age @dragonageIn the bustling ports of Docktown, nestled within Minrathous, you'll find two factions fighting for control: The Venatori, a cult of blood mages, and the Shadow Dragons, a resistance group that fights against the city's corrupt rulers. #DragonAge #Veilguard Venatori vs Shadow Dragons? Where is the Tevinter authority? Well, there is an invading horde of Qunari rampaging across their nation. Compared to that, both groups aren’t really worth worrying about at the moment.
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Post by Ice-Quinn on Jul 9, 2024 7:21:27 GMT
DA2's system (with adjustments, of course) could probably handle companions the best. Lock down their approval, once you hit a certain threshold. Actually, ME2&3 did it better. Do their loyalty quests, that's it. You can disagree about stuff and decisions you've made, talk about it even but without major repercussions, without having to say stuff your character wouldn't say just to placate some companion. I don't know about you guys and I'm not proud of this, but I've definitely acted out of character in the past because of companion approval, you end up playing a needy dumbass people-pleaser and that's not cute.
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saandrig
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Post by saandrig on Jul 9, 2024 7:50:50 GMT
Did the friendship/rivalry spectrum in DA2 have a downside for each extreme? I can't remember. I know that there were different benefits for each, but can't recall if there was a cost to moving along the spectrum in any one direction. I've never noticed a downside. You could romance and convince a Friend/Rival for anything.
It mostly made a difference in cutscenes and dialogue, sometimes altering certain actions, but the results were the same.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 9, 2024 8:34:20 GMT
Did the friendship/rivalry spectrum in DA2 have a downside for each extreme? I can't remember. I know that there were different benefits for each, but can't recall if there was a cost to moving along the spectrum in any one direction. The main downside was you couldn't play a middle of the road character; in other words be like Varric. If you wanted their loyalty you had to either be a complete sycophant or an absolute jerk until you got them locked in on a particular path and then you could do as you pleased because it made no difference whatsoever. Thus, I quickly locked in Anders on the friendship path early on because throughout Act 1 and the early part of Act 2 I was making decisions and saying things regarding mages that he approved of. By contrast I very nearly rivaled Fenris my first run because he was with me much of the time alongside Anders and so every decision that Anders approved of, Fenris did the opposite. However, just before he locked in on rivalry, I did his personal quest which helped to turn the tide and then my decisions seemed to merit enough approval that ever so slowly I advanced on the friendship side instead. It still took until very near the end of Act 3 and giving him the Sword of Mercy before I finally got to the point where it triggered our reconciliation scene. That was annoying enough but the fact that if you had a balanced opinion of the issues a companion might never lock in either way and so might be in danger of betraying you at the end was frustrating. I am not sure whether the system being described for DAV is going to be a mix of DAO, DA2 and DAI in how in works or something else entirely. However, it does seem as though not every companion will become your best friend or lover because each has their own attitude to certain things and decisions you will make and won't form a close relationship with someone they profoundly disagree with. I'm okay with that because I never really understood why you would romance a rival in DA2 when clearly your outlook on life was so at variance with theirs. So long as they are happy to remain loyal despite differences in opinion I am happy to settle for that. Then perhaps just one person becomes your soul mate because you are so in tune with one another. To be honest I like the sound of that.
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Post by Ice-Quinn on Jul 9, 2024 8:37:29 GMT
Did the friendship/rivalry spectrum in DA2 have a downside for each extreme? I can't remember. I know that there were different benefits for each, but can't recall if there was a cost to moving along the spectrum in any one direction. I've never noticed a downside. You could romance and convince a Friend/Rival for anything.
It mostly made a difference in cutscenes and dialogue, sometimes altering certain actions, but the results were the same.
Their unique specialization also, one path (upper) required Friendship to unlock and the other, Rivalry. Other than that and what you have also mentioned, yeah, there wasn't really a downside. Rivalry played more like a Friendship with disagreements and different world views and etc, but with the same respect and loyalty. And vice-versa, I mean... for me, it was always Carver, Merrill, Fenris and Sebastian (Rivalry). But I still loved them as characters (Sebastian, meh) and my Hawke would fight for them.
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Post by Ice-Quinn on Jul 9, 2024 8:49:31 GMT
Another downside to approval in general, you then tend to take certain companions out on the field with you, with a quest's approval points in mind to manage relationships - instead of letting them play out organically, and taking whoever you like. It becomes almost a separate game in itself, with wiki guides and everything - this dialogue nets you +5 with Vivienne. This side quest gives Sera +10. I personally find it exhausting. Mass Effect is much, much better in that regard: just secure their loyalty (or don't), and enjoy the mf'n game.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Jul 9, 2024 9:25:30 GMT
Is this going to be like ME2 where I had to complete loyalty missions, in this case have a friendly relationship, for everyone to survive the game? DAV sounds more and more like ME2, trying to recreate their biggest success. So I wouldn't be surprised it's a lot like this. I don't necessarily mind. I like helping companions settler their issues, help them grow. BG3 is like this too. When well done it's great. When not well done it quickly looks like a bad daily soap opera. So as usual it comes down to the quality of the writing. DAV will sink or soar on that for me. I brace for sink like a stone. MEA felt like babysitting a bunch of crybabies. But that game was made by different people. So technically we haven't had the A team do a ME or DA game since 2014. Granted the A team is now largely made up of different people too. So we'll have to see.
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Post by fairdragon on Jul 9, 2024 9:59:45 GMT
Yeah I d otoo personaly I'm jus tfocused on Veilguard I'm not worrying about ME becaus eif Veilguard fails it's likel ythere won' tbe another ME. I don' t think Veilguard will fail though as I thin kit's mostl ybeen positiv eothe rthan the stupid Godmod edebate a sI found another youtuber earlier posting an dchimin gin on tha tearlier bu tdecided t oignoe rit because I think the optoins they'v egiven us aer good
BG3's success punches so many holes in her analysis.
I don't think so, becasue Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder and many other RTWP are showing her analysis right. BG3 was TB and not RTWP. And i know gamers that only buy the game because of the hype and not the gameplay. Those gamers struggled through the combat system.
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Post by fairdragon on Jul 9, 2024 10:00:42 GMT
I thin kin the case of wha tsh ewas saying was tha tBG 3ws aan exception rathe rtha nthe rule here .Which tbh it is as all the othe rgames on tha tlist ae raction games .Don't ge tm ewron gI like BG3 but it is a differen ttype of game
LOL... if more BG3 like games are developed, they'd become the rule!
When Greedfall 2 is a success maybe, but from what i read it doesn't look like it.
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fistoffiori
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Post by fistoffiori on Jul 9, 2024 10:07:07 GMT
Be interesting if it is a Mass Effect 2 style system, it's one of my fave games ever, not just out of Bioware games.
I'm used to rotating my party in these games so no fuss in trying to keep everyone happy with taking them out on missions. Plus I like most of Bioware's companion quests.
Only having 2 companions with us in a Dragon Age game kinda poses party comp issues - I like to have 2 ranged in other DA games - but if I have a quest for say, Taash or Davrin, I'll take whatever class I'm not as the other member. I'm still torn between Rogue or a Spellblade focussed Mage. That said, if I'm spellblade, I could take another mage like Bellara who is defo ranged or Neve who seems to be a mix judging by the gameplay demo.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jul 9, 2024 11:18:11 GMT
You mean if several different companies could also have a 5E D&D license and a multi-year open beta? Yeah, didn't think that's what you meant but that is what it means. Before Baldur's Gate, Bioware had one game of middling quality to their name and one OK sequel of someone else's game. Neither one was anything like an RPG. The D&D license with its built-in fanbase that tracked closely with the users of PC games at the time AND some excellent execution allowed them to grow and flourish. I will not take one thing from Larian, but anyone who thinks they sold the number of games they did primarily because of game mechanics is deluding themselves. 5E is tremendously popular across a wider range of audiences than any previous version of D&D ever was. BG3 also benefited from additional marketing support from WotC/Hasbro in the form of modules, crossover events, etc. The long Early Access period acted like an extended marketing campaign a company like Larian could never have afforded on its own. Doesn't mean that some kind of turn-based or RTWP couldn't do it, but BG3 is not the proof for that. Sorry. Yeah, I'm expecting (and indeed looking forward to!) a wave of BG3 imitators in a few years, but it's wildly unlikely that any of them will be as successful or good as BG3 is. In addition to having the 5th edition license and an extended period of early access, Larian are in a unique position having made multiple RPGs on the engine they used for the game before AND not having a publisher breathing down their necks AND having the reputation BioWare built for the Baldur's Gate series. What will really be interesting is if Larian are able to build on their success for the next Divinity game and the new science fiction IP they're working on now that they've parted ways with Hasbro. They've clearly got incredible talent over there, but also I feel like their tendency toward scope creep is going to bite them one of these days. (Like, more than it already did in the Original Sin games and BG3 Act III.) A lot of people already have tried the didn't quite hit the mark BG3 did but thedid com eup with som edecent turn based games like as we know Xcom an dMidnight Suns from Firaxxis .Also there are a fwe indie ones like Sla ythe Spire and another game that came out recently on Steam called Capes. Non eo fthem hav equie tachieved wha tBG3 have so masyb eas I said it reall yis an exception rather than the rule for the moment. I think Xcom is the one that's got the closest given that's become a series of games bu tas far as I know unlike BG3 Xcom hasn' twon an yGOTY's
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Post by themikefest on Jul 9, 2024 11:19:12 GMT
Is this going to be like ME2 where I had to complete loyalty missions, in this case have a friendly relationship, for everyone to survive the game? DAV sounds more and more like ME2, trying to recreate their biggest success. So I wouldn't be surprised it's a lot like this. Two things I didn't like about ME2. Loyalty missions deciding if a character dies or not and being able to recruit squadmates after the suicide mission I brace for the game doing well. I believe it will. You get a like for this. I will echo what a poster said shortly after the game released. The game was like a bunch of kids on spring break.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jul 9, 2024 11:31:10 GMT
Is this going to be like ME2 where I had to complete loyalty missions, in this case have a friendly relationship, for everyone to survive the game? DAV sounds more and more like ME2, trying to recreate their biggest success. So I wouldn't be surprised it's a lot like this. I don't necessarily mind. I like helping companions settler their issues, help them grow. BG3 is like this too. When well done it's great. When not well done it quickly looks like a bad daily soap opera. So as usual it comes down to the quality of the writing. DAV will sink or soar on that for me. I brace for sink like a stone. MEA felt like babysitting a bunch of crybabies. But that game was made by different people. So technically we haven't had the A team do a ME or DA game since 2014. Granted the A team is now largely made up of different people too. So we'll have to see. Yea hi tdoes sound like a companion oriented gam eand I don't mind eithe ras ME2 is m yfavourite so if the ymanage to do it well who knows.
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Post by The Pluto Lounge on Jul 9, 2024 11:36:22 GMT
I do like having Persuasion options in RPGs and I tend to lean hard into them for the games which have them. Origins had Coercion, ME had Charm/Intimidate. BG3 handled it well. The Outer Worlds really ran with it. Honestly, I couldn't see myself playing the game without maxing-out Persuasion. And ofc Pathfinder WotR had some ridiculous(-ly awesome) builds with Persuasion. I'm hoping we'll have those options in the next ME. Why does the main character have to have the power of the voice? I like a companion/squadmate, or any other npc, to have the power of the voice to be able to convince the main character what he/she is doing is not the best way. I would even go as far as giving the npc a paragon/renegade interrupt to use on the main character. I see what you mean. I would have far more respect of Alistair's character if the hardened version took complete control during the landsmeet.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jul 9, 2024 11:39:47 GMT
Be interesting if it is a Mass Effect 2 style system, it's one of my fave games ever, not just out of Bioware games. I'm used to rotating my party in these games so no fuss in trying to keep everyone happy with taking them out on missions. Plus I like most of Bioware's companion quests. Only having 2 companions with us in a Dragon Age game kinda poses party comp issues - I like to have 2 ranged in other DA games - but if I have a quest for say, Taash or Davrin, I'll take whatever class I'm not as the other member. I'm still torn between Rogue or a Spellblade focussed Mage. That said, if I'm spellblade, I could take another mage like Bellara who is defo ranged or Neve who seems to be a mix judging by the gameplay demo. Yeah I thin kbased off the info w ehave they've given us a mix of abilities rather than jus ttied t oon etype o fability. Kind o flik ewhen the yewn tfrom ME1 to 2 where in ME1 you ha dpresuasion t oleve lup plus skills fo runlockin g doors and chests in 2 the ystreamlined it so tha tthe levelin up system onl yaffects your comba tskills as unlocking stuf fwa sreduced t ocomplet a simple mini game qand persuasion is affected only by your choices. It's stil all therethough just done differently Butyea hI usually go wit h2 rangec charactres in th eearlier games as for th eharde rmissions I tend t ogo with a mag a rogu eand 2 warriors. Obviously I'll need t ochang em ystrateg giong int oVeilguard but how I'll approac hit I'l llikel ydecid ebased off how I end up playing and make appropriate adjustments.
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Post by Sartoz on Jul 9, 2024 12:36:47 GMT
You mean if several different companies could also have a 5E D&D license and a multi-year open beta? Yeah, didn't think that's what you meant but that is what it means. Before Baldur's Gate, Bioware had one game of middling quality to their name and one OK sequel of someone else's game. Neither one was anything like an RPG. The D&D license with its built-in fanbase that tracked closely with the users of PC games at the time AND some excellent execution allowed them to grow and flourish. I will not take one thing from Larian, but anyone who thinks they sold the number of games they did primarily because of game mechanics is deluding themselves. 5E is tremendously popular across a wider range of audiences than any previous version of D&D ever was. BG3 also benefited from additional marketing support from WotC/Hasbro in the form of modules, crossover events, etc. The long Early Access period acted like an extended marketing campaign a company like Larian could never have afforded on its own. Doesn't mean that some kind of turn-based or RTWP couldn't do it, but BG3 is not the proof for that. Sorry. Yeah, I'm expecting (and indeed looking forward to!) a wave of BG3 imitators in a few years, but it's wildly unlikely that any of them will be as successful or good as BG3 is. In addition to having the 5th edition license and an extended period of early access, Larian are in a unique position having made multiple RPGs on the engine they used for the game before AND not having a publisher breathing down their necks AND having the reputation BioWare built for the Baldur's Gate series. What will really be interesting is if Larian are able to build on their success for the next Divinity game and the new science fiction IP they're working on now that they've parted ways with Hasbro. They've clearly got incredible talent over there, but also I feel like their tendency toward scope creep is going to bite them one of these days. (Like, more than it already did in the Original Sin games and BG3 Act III.)
More interesting to me is the strong hunger in the player community for games like BG3. A real cRPG game. The fact that few studios are successful in developing such games does not invalidate that hunger. The fact that Larian gave 1 year+ Early Access does not invalidate that hunger.
Larian, with its experience with BG3 will be successful in developing their new scifi IP, imo. Yes, it takes time, resources and money but if the company, any company, has these resources and talent and are not pressured by publishers to launch an unfinished, unpolished game .... well all I see is success.
Anthem was Bio's Great Potential. Poor execution, poor mechanics, launched too early, very unpolished, poorly thought out (ie: "fight with friends"), poorly unsupported post launched. An ambitious game with greatness within its reach but alas.... This does not invalidate action games or looter shooters.
What all this tells me is that a game well thought out and properly supported during its development and post launch has a better chance at success than rushed games out of the door. If DAV sells six million copies at $90 a pop = $540 million = a Bio success.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 9, 2024 12:43:03 GMT
Another downside to approval in general, you then tend to take certain companions out on the field with you, with a quest's approval points in mind to manage relationships - instead of letting them play out organically, and taking whoever you like. The most ridiculous one for me was Iron Bull. I played through the entire game without triggering his personal quest. Then came to the boards and discovered people talking about it. Checked the Wiki and realised it must have had something to do with his approval. Went back to an earlier save and took him on a dragon hunt, which boosted his approval sufficiently to trigger it. From a role playing point of view it was ridiculous that he would base his recommendation concerning my suitability to work with the Qun on indulging his personal enjoyment. What sort of spy was he? Considering how important Par Vollen thought stopping the export of red lyrium was, that was surely one personal quest that should have triggered almost automatically, possibly once we had discovered the requisite number of red lyrium deposits or something. Yet that one was linked to Varric. Sometimes it didn't make sense. So, as you say, I much prefer ME2 where you got offered the loyal quest regardless and then it was up to you if you took it and how it played out.
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