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Post by river82 on Dec 9, 2024 5:26:36 GMT
But what has been broken in the game? Qunari lore broke disbelief for a section of the community. That's the one I'm most familiar with. Yes the writers can do whatever they want, I argue they're portrayal of the Qunari has been inconsistent and unbelievable for a while now. For others, it's the characters and how their reactions in the game seem TO THEM to contradict worldbuilding: Gratingly, there's very little conflict between party members even though their backgrounds would suggest they should oppose one another. Bellara is a Dalish elf, a culture that's extremely wary of outsiders (though that also appears to have been discarded), and one that's rightfully prejudiced against humans. They've also been worshipping our antagonists for generations. As you might have guessed, despite these obvious contradictions, she never touches on any of these subjects and doesn't express any negativity at all about her people's relationship with Tevinter and humanity as a whole. Lucanis has spent his entire life killing mages and ironically, is now possessed by a demon. However, our resident mage Neve isn't at all concerned with any of that.www.thegamer.com/dragon-age-the-veilguard-discarded-nuance-weak-characters/For others still it's slavery. But the one thing that's consistent with all of these examples is all of this ties back to how aspect of the story interact with the world building and its established rules. It's not thematic, it's not "we've established this in lore"
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 9, 2024 5:36:11 GMT
"Suggests to me"? Did you play the game, or are you suggesting yourself what a specific person has said? Sorry, I don't know who even TheGamer is, but I've seen way too much "my suspension of disbelief is shattered" eveb if only when a character followed a natural conclusion to their arc that was basically spelled out to us in past chapter/DLC, with the only inconsistency being that THEY misunderstood a theme or character, or wanted it to be something else, actual story be damned. One person's experiences is light anecdotal evidence. Not really worthy of mentioning. As I've said before I believe the writers of Dragon Age trended toward Urban Fantasy, which has a different tone and focus than epic fantasy, providing a disconnect with previous fans about what is expected. Epic fantasy has a wider scope, dealing with bigger issues, urban fantasy imo is more personal. That's my opinion, it's not a popular one, but I think it'd be more popular than David Jaffe's who believes the writing is more young adult. I brought up The Gamer because they're obviously big fans of the series, and they hate certain gamers so obviously a popular view with a certain section of people. And even they aren't happy with the writing. I would think that people would be more willing to accept their point of view than mine *points up*. Stacey Henley is trans and is a big fan of Taash. Suspension of Disbelief is a big deal with writing. Also not talking about themes here, you're rarely jolted out of a story because of the misunderstanding of a theme It's no less anecdotal than an opinion of some guy I also don't know anything about. Also, people get jolted out of a story for many reasons, and they definitely get jolted out of the story if they expect something else (because they misunderstood a theme or a character or a plot point) and the story doesn't satisfy what *they* want from it. It's an impulse I can somewhat understand, but not one I will consider a fair measure of the story's quality, and I've seen a lot of complaints at DAVe's writing quality that is based pretty much entirely on what they would like DA4 to be, and not what it actually is. And I distinctly remember having similar discussions about Inquisition. It's not an uncommon or new problem.
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Post by smilesja on Dec 9, 2024 5:38:20 GMT
I don’t understand why we need reviewers to strengthen our arguments. Are we drones? Our opinions of the game should stand on their own and not because of some YouTuber.
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Post by VARMAELEN on Dec 9, 2024 5:42:59 GMT
But what has been broken in the game? Qunari lore broke disbelief for a section of the community. That's the one I'm most familiar with. Yes the writers can do whatever they want, I argue they're portrayal of the Qunari has been inconsistent and unbelievable for a while now. For others, it's the characters and how their reactions in the game seem TO THEM to contradict worldbuilding: Gratingly, there's very little conflict between party members even though their backgrounds would suggest they should oppose one another. Bellara is a Dalish elf, a culture that's extremely wary of outsiders (though that also appears to have been discarded), and one that's rightfully prejudiced against humans. They've also been worshipping our antagonists for generations. As you might have guessed, despite these obvious contradictions, she never touches on any of these subjects and doesn't express any negativity at all about her people's relationship with Tevinter and humanity as a whole. Lucanis has spent his entire life killing mages and ironically, is now possessed by a demon. However, our resident mage Neve isn't at all concerned with any of that.www.thegamer.com/dragon-age-the-veilguard-discarded-nuance-weak-characters/For others still it's slavery. But the one thing that's consistent with all of these examples is all of this ties back to how aspect of the story interact with the world building and its established rules. It's not thematic, it's not "we've established this in lore" Okay maybe Northern Elf isn't as prejudiced against outsider compared to Southern Elf, if that is the case show us why. Also, yeah, Slavery in Tevinter isn't as bad as Dorian (or previous games) implied, Ferelden is a shithole, fair enough, (ignoring the fact there are codexes of Dorian debating that is still case) - show us why. Much of the argument presented in the article has merit, some of readers feels they need to be dismissive to ignore the point tell us more about the reader not the author, imo.
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Post by river82 on Dec 9, 2024 5:45:41 GMT
One person's experiences is light anecdotal evidence. Not really worthy of mentioning. As I've said before I believe the writers of Dragon Age trended toward Urban Fantasy, which has a different tone and focus than epic fantasy, providing a disconnect with previous fans about what is expected. Epic fantasy has a wider scope, dealing with bigger issues, urban fantasy imo is more personal. That's my opinion, it's not a popular one, but I think it'd be more popular than David Jaffe's who believes the writing is more young adult. I brought up The Gamer because they're obviously big fans of the series, and they hate certain gamers so obviously a popular view with a certain section of people. And even they aren't happy with the writing. I would think that people would be more willing to accept their point of view than mine *points up*. Stacey Henley is trans and is a big fan of Taash. Suspension of Disbelief is a big deal with writing. Also not talking about themes here, you're rarely jolted out of a story because of the misunderstanding of a theme It's no less anecdotal than an opinion of some guy I also don't know anything about. Also, people get jolted out of a story for many reasons, and they definitely get jolted out of the story if they expect something else (because they misunderstood a theme or a character or a plot point) and the story doesn't satisfy what *they* want from it. It's an impulse I can somewhat understand, but not one I will consider a fair measure of the story's quality, and I've seen a lot of complaints at DAVe's writing quality that is based pretty much entirely on what they would like DA4 to be, and not what it actually is. And I distinctly remember having similar discussions about Inquisition. It's not an uncommon or new problem. Very few people get jolted out of Dragon Age because they misunderstood a theme. They do get jolted out if they expect something else, but considering Dragon Age reinvents itself every game that's something easy to explain. Themes are underlying concepts that are so interwoven into the story, you put it down and think about it for hours afterward. Like Star Wars' Fall of the Empire parallel to Bush, So not jolting you out of the game because it's something you think about long after you put things down. If it's really in your face that's possible but it'd be hard to misunderstand if they make it that obvious. If the theme is so strong that the writers start telling the audience what they should be thinking rather than letting the world and story show the reader the themes, that can be a problem. Once again, show don't tell, show them what is and the effects, don't tell people how they should think. That can jolt people out of a story. Otherwise sure, people do get jolted out for many reasons. Usually valid. There's a reason why Suspension of Disbelief is talked about in writing classes :S
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Post by river82 on Dec 9, 2024 5:48:27 GMT
I don’t understand why we need reviewers to strengthen our arguments. Are we not drones? Our opinions of the game should stand on their own and not because of some YouTuber. Hey, if I'm playing Path of Exile on monitor 2, then any ctrl c ctrl v opportunity is one I'll gladly take
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 9, 2024 6:31:58 GMT
I don’t understand why we need reviewers to strengthen our arguments. Are we drones? Our opinions of the game should stand on their own and not because of some YouTuber. It's always stuck me as a strange move too. "I can't explain my own ideas but this guy can" isn't usually a persuasive argument. But it can work if the point is expressing your own feelings and you just aren't articulate enough to do it yourself.
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Post by river82 on Dec 9, 2024 6:39:33 GMT
I don’t understand why we need reviewers to strengthen our arguments. Are we drones? Our opinions of the game should stand on their own and not because of some YouTuber. It's always stuck me as a strange move too. "I can't explain my own ideas but this guy can" isn't usually a persuasive argument. But it can work if the point is expressing your own feelings and you just aren't articulate enough to do it yourself. It also works if a certain section of the site believe my words are disingenuous. Now we have lots of different sources that are quite reliable. I quoted a writer for suspension of disbelief, a really well respected reviewer, and a director of God of War. There, no disingenuous words, yes? Stop being nitpicky and enjoy your game xD
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Post by smilesja on Dec 9, 2024 6:53:15 GMT
Just articulate your own argument, to me it's a lazy way of explaining your point. I have to go and agree with a guy because he made a good game? Sorry but It smacks of appeal to authority to me.
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Post by river82 on Dec 9, 2024 6:55:12 GMT
Just articulate your own argument, to me it's a lazy way of explaining your point. I have to go and agree with a guy because he made a good game? Sorry but It smacks of appeal to authority to me. I do but people get mad. So now people can be mad at me, and all these other people. I feel so much better now
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Post by VARMAELEN on Dec 9, 2024 6:56:29 GMT
It's preferable to ctrl c and ctrl v your argument, if the rebuttal often than not is just lazy excuse or lazy dismissive statement or lazy one liner or lazy assortment of "we are not the one making claim".
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Post by ClarkKent on Dec 9, 2024 10:06:22 GMT
In the case of the review I linked it was simply nice to see an example of someone that lives and breathes Dragon Age, and has played the game several times, have similar thoughts to mine.
It's also been a bit of time since my last playthrough, and my memories also not infallible, so it was good to get a perspective from someone that's played multiple times and looked over every detail. He was certainly bang on with the Harding picnic scene - crazy tone death.
That, and I know I'm in no rush to play through Veilguard again. fuck those blight zits.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Dec 9, 2024 10:40:41 GMT
I don’t understand why we need reviewers to strengthen our arguments. Are we drones? Our opinions of the game should stand on their own and not because of some YouTuber. Yep, since 2016 or so I decided I actually know better than the reviewers, because so many reviews were crap - especially after playing the game being reviewed as something else it was not - for me... So no, no tuber or anyone else can decide what I like to play. And I like to play the best games (for me that is)!
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Dec 9, 2024 12:37:37 GMT
I don’t understand why we need reviewers to strengthen our arguments. Are we drones? Our opinions of the game should stand on their own and not because of some YouTuber. Yep, since 2016 or so I decided I actually know better than the reviewers, because so many reviews were crap - especially after playing the game being reviewed as something else it was not - for me... So no, no tuber or anyone else can decide what I like to play. And I like to play the best games (for me that is)! Yeah I look a tgameand decid efo rmyself theswe days whethe rthe yae rgames worth my time. Moer ofte nthan not I can determine thatjus tb ylooking. I've been usin gtha tapproach sinc eAndromeda really I don' tneed reviews t otell m ewhat I shoul dor shouldn't be playing.
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Post by Sartoz on Dec 9, 2024 13:00:34 GMT
But what has been broken in the game? Qunari lore broke disbelief for a section of the community. That's the one I'm most familiar with. Yes the writers can do whatever they want, I argue they're portrayal of the Qunari has been inconsistent and unbelievable for a while now. For others, it's the characters and how their reactions in the game seem TO THEM to contradict worldbuilding: Gratingly, there's very little conflict between party members even though their backgrounds would suggest they should oppose one another. Bellara is a Dalish elf, a culture that's extremely wary of outsiders (though that also appears to have been discarded), and one that's rightfully prejudiced against humans. They've also been worshipping our antagonists for generations. As you might have guessed, despite these obvious contradictions, she never touches on any of these subjects and doesn't express any negativity at all about her people's relationship with Tevinter and humanity as a whole. Lucanis has spent his entire life killing mages and ironically, is now possessed by a demon. However, our resident mage Neve isn't at all concerned with any of that.www.thegamer.com/dragon-age-the-veilguard-discarded-nuance-weak-characters/For others still it's slavery. But the one thing that's consistent with all of these examples is all of this ties back to how aspect of the story interact with the world building and its established rules. It's not thematic, it's not "we've established this in lore" Interesting. Is this view based on completing the game? Which char and faction did you choose?
Personally I find, at Lvl 20, the main story to be light. Surprises from cameos characters but I'm not hooked yet. Whereas, the hook for me was The Warden and Morrigan in DAO, Hawke, Varric, Leliana and the Arishok in DA2, DAI was a waste of my time and nothing so far with DA4. Only two chars have peaked my curiosity in DA4. I've a long way to go yet so things may change.
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Post by Sartoz on Dec 9, 2024 13:18:03 GMT
One person's experiences is light anecdotal evidence. Not really worthy of mentioning. As I've said before I believe the writers of Dragon Age trended toward Urban Fantasy, which has a different tone and focus than epic fantasy, providing a disconnect with previous fans about what is expected. Epic fantasy has a wider scope, dealing with bigger issues, urban fantasy imo is more personal. That's my opinion, it's not a popular one, but I think it'd be more popular than David Jaffe's who believes the writing is more young adult. I brought up The Gamer because they're obviously big fans of the series, and they hate certain gamers so obviously a popular view with a certain section of people. And even they aren't happy with the writing. I would think that people would be more willing to accept their point of view than mine *points up*. Stacey Henley is trans and is a big fan of Taash. Suspension of Disbelief is a big deal with writing. Also not talking about themes here, you're rarely jolted out of a story because of the misunderstanding of a theme It's no less anecdotal than an opinion of some guy I also don't know anything about. Also, people get jolted out of a story for many reasons, and they definitely get jolted out of the story if they expect something else (because they misunderstood a theme or a character or a plot point) and the story doesn't satisfy what *they* want from it. It's an impulse I can somewhat understand, but not one I will consider a fair measure of the story's quality, and I've seen a lot of complaints at DAVe's writing quality that is based pretty much entirely on what they would like DA4 to be, and not what it actually is. And I distinctly remember having similar discussions about Inquisition. It's not an uncommon or new problem. Complaints about DA4's writing is fair. My expectations about the game is one thing but writing? Solid story is an expected fact from Bio since the studio keeps harping about how good they are at it.
Forty hours in and still in ACT1. I concede that my view may be biased based on where am at in ACT1. Still, after recruiting six of seven and completing personal quests (Taash is incomplete) you'd think the writing would reveal itself to be solid by now. Hoping it will improve as I work my way into the main story arc.
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Post by Sartoz on Dec 9, 2024 13:21:24 GMT
I don’t understand why we need reviewers to strengthen our arguments. Are we drones? Our opinions of the game should stand on their own and not because of some YouTuber. Hm.. I prefer the word discussions...
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Post by OrbitalWings on Dec 9, 2024 14:42:16 GMT
I don’t understand why we need reviewers to strengthen our arguments. Are we drones? Our opinions of the game should stand on their own and not because of some YouTuber. This a thousand times.
And don't even get me started on the trend over the last decade towards "Professional reviewers are bad and paid off and agenda-pushing BUT youtubers & streamers with monetized accounts and revenue directly tied to clicks & views are tooootally honest and just looking out for people out of the kindness of their hearts"
Every time I see someone claim they'll wait for the "real reviews" - when they mean those of outrage merchants grifting off some imaginary culture war - I just wanna chew glass.
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Post by The Dread Pronoun on Dec 9, 2024 15:14:38 GMT
Ah the news discussion thread, amirite?
Fortunately, having played the game myself, I know it's good and a very satisfying conclusion to the last two games. So "I need to convince you it's bad, actually" videos and posts are useless to me. But if any of y'all can hook me up with cool "This is HOW the game is good" vids and commentary, let me know. I enjoy spending my free time consuming those.
Also if you can hook me up with any actual compelling info on how well or badly the game did when/if such a thing is reported, that would be great, too. As someone super-invested in the series and its future, the whole being accurately informed on the reality of the situation part is very important to me.
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Post by smilesja on Dec 9, 2024 18:18:15 GMT
And why should people care to find others who share their own viewpoint? Over what? Video games? Who cares what others think? If you love or hate a video game that's good for you! If I listened to all of the Youtubers and reviewers, I would never have played Dragon Age 2 and therefore not be hooked on Bioware games.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Dec 9, 2024 18:23:03 GMT
And why should people care to find others who share their own viewpoint? Over what? Video games? Who cares what others think? If you love or hate a video game that's good for you! If I listened to all of the Youtubers and reviewers, I would never have played Dragon Age 2 and therefore not be hooked on Bioware games. Indeed I'd have nev rgon eanywher nea rhalf th egames I'v eenjoyed lik eAndromeda o rMidnight Suns for example i fI'd hav epaid attention to reviews. Yet Midnight Suns was m ypersona lGOTY in 2022 and I still thoroughl yenjo yAndromeda as well.
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Post by ClarkKent on Dec 9, 2024 19:11:48 GMT
And why should people care to find others who share their own viewpoint? Over what? Video games? Who cares what others think? If you love or hate a video game that's good for you! If I listened to all of the Youtubers and reviewers, I would never have played Dragon Age 2 and therefore not be hooked on Bioware games. Well, I would assume discussing topics with others, and finding out others views on things is at least part of the purpose of forums like this. I have own opinion on Veilguard, but it's generally interesting to find out other people's views that may or may not disagree with mine. 🤷♂️
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Post by colfoley on Dec 9, 2024 19:13:05 GMT
I was curious to see what arguments you would bring to bear here, and its the usual bugaboos. The Qunari act pretty much how they have always acted and maybe they stretched the lore most with the Qunari (or at least a very specific Qunari) at the end of the day this is who they have always been. Remember Sten in Origins was so brainwashed by his cult's religious preferences that the first thing he did when he lost his 'soul' was to go nuts and murder an entire family. The Qunari have been shown to have a violent nature time and time again and the Tamasarans seem to stoke those flames in those they choose to be warriors of the Antaam. Then these warriors are taught to fight and nothing else...then for centuries they watch the Priesthood/ Ben-Hassrath stumble about in the South with no success in sight, frustrated by having their leash held and just the occasional bitter war against Tevinter but no serious conflict...they snap. They snap because they have had no one to really fight in centuries and their only purpose that they have been bred for and raised in is to fight...and then they are told if they lose their weapons they no longer have a soul. So yes, how the Qunari acted in Veilguard is very consistent. But they do touch on these relationships. Bellara goes into the contradiction herself and talks about how much human prediduices might lead to them having problems with the new information and hating on Elves more. Davrin mentions that he is in no rush to spread the mention of this new information because of those same reasons. So there is a difference between how you may view the blind preduidices of the masses and how individuals view one another. Bellara is familiar with Neve through her serials so a bit of hero worship going on there.
Neve is a Shadow Dragon who is comitted to freeing slaves including Elves. Probably something the serials picked up on but she is not exactly the type of person that would be predudiced against Elves in the first place and Bellara would know that.
Then you have Taash and because of their very consistent with the Qunari prejuidice they do not get along with Emmrich because of the weirdness with magic and Qunari's views on life. Conflict which people say does not exist in the game, but very clearly does. And Tevinter being a slaver Empire, the only one in Thedas technically, is brought up apart of the story and is explored. Its not as big of a focus only coming up as the main plot of one plotline but to say its not there, or inconsistent, again makes me question if these reviewers or websites or commentators have played the game when they can miss such obvious thematic moments. Edit: To cut to the chase while the gampleay may be a bit different here and there still find this game 99% consistent with the tone, spirit, themes, story, worlbuilding, and character of the previous three games. Like there was pretty much one codex entry in the entire thing I felt was pushing things. Tevinter is a slaver empire where slave ownership is described in previous games as extraordinarily normal. That slaves were and are everywhere in Tevinter. That it isn't shown in the game outside of one or two plot points betrays the worldbuilding previously built. The reviewers are correct here, the difference to what was said and what was shown is stark. The player's impressions of the Qun has changed from game to game. You can't say the Qunari have always acted the same and then say remember Sten was brainwashed and therefore different. This constant changing even down to the constant changing of appearance (though reasons were provided retroactively) provides a disconnect with players. There is no reason to disbelieve Sten in DA:O, and nobody did at the time. And now nobody has a firm grasp of the Qunari at all. You call it stretching, I call it retconning, but what has resulted is just a sense of disbelief with the Qunari. The characters touch on things very briefly. Your wording is precisely right, things are touched on. That's all they ever are. Touch on, phrasal verb, to briefly talk about. I agree with you and that's the problem. Its the entirety of the Tevinter storyline. Slavery, slavers, people who are slaves, ex slaves, people who are trying to deal with slaves, and the consequences of slavery and the geopolitical situation that results from that kind of stratified enironment is all over the Tevinter storyline. I did decide to finally look it up and I was wrong. The one thing that I thought was stretched about the Qunari in Veilguard (which had nothing to do with the lore) I was mistaken about. So for the Veilguard the Qunari act pretty much 100% consistently with established lore from the previous games and the mold that was set by Sten.
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midnight tea
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 9, 2024 19:53:36 GMT
Okay, this is my last reply in this string of comments, continuing the topic on this thread (spoilered for lenght and being done): But what has been broken in the game? Qunari lore broke disbelief for a section of the community. That's the one I'm most familiar with. Yes the writers can do whatever they want, I argue they're portrayal of the Qunari has been inconsistent and unbelievable for a while now. Qunari lore suposedly "broke disbelief" to some famously in Inquisition with aqun-athlock - then it turned out that some people completely misunderstood Iron Bull explaining to himself a person like Krem with a term present in his culture, and went around screaming that Inquisition "watered down" the Qunari - that they're accepting and friendly now, and sit on Par Vollen and all sing kumbaya... which is incredibly ironic given everything that has been established, across Inquisition, Trespaser or DAVe. As for me, I can't think of anything that makes the Qun "inconsistent and unbelievable", but I just don't want to open another can of worms in a thread not really dedicated to going in-depth on this topic. The Dalish are established all across DA to be very varied and have different approaches to humans. We've known this since DAO, and this has been quite literally spelled out to us, e.g. by Solas in Inquisition. It is grating to me that showing another facet of that extremely varied group living ways away from clans we've previously encountered - one that isn't as weary of outsiders and dedicated themselves to scholarly pursuits (VJs are scholars from across different clans who banded together and scholars are usually open-minded) to learn about their past and keep their ancient site safe - is viewed by people as inconsistency, when all they're showing by such an assumption is their lack of knowledge of the lore and story. Here's the thing - she does actually do that. Bellara in general simply isn't a hostile person, but she talks with Neve about interacting with other Tevenes or has e.g. a whole string of banter with Taash where she's obvious that she's wary about what LoF do with elven relics, etc. Lucanis didn't spend his entire life killing mages - at some point prior to "the Wigmaker Job" in Tevinter Nights someone (probably the Black Divine?) began hiring him to eliminate dangerous Venatori, and he turned out to be very good at it, hence he got nicknamed the 'mage-killer' and 'demon of Vyrantium' - which is how Neve herself recommended getting Lucanis to deal with god-like mage-kings. And Neve has dialogues both with Rook and several dialogues about 'hey, is the mage-killer thing not something we should worry about?', including chats with Lucanis about his previous jobs, or WHOLE SCENES and banters of companions being concerned about the whole demon thing. See, this is the thing that is very not fun coming back to, once I'm in a mood for a bit of interaction with fandom here: stumbling on confident critique while displaying a lack of even basic knowledge of the very thing one is criticizing. I have no desire to do this anymore - too many things are happening IRL right now, including way too close to my actual home, and I come here to have a tiny bit of a reprieve. I have no time or headspace for this sort of running around in circles and engaging with criticisms stemming from ignorance or bad faith (or both).
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Post by smilesja on Dec 9, 2024 20:05:03 GMT
And why should people care to find others who share their own viewpoint? Over what? Video games? Who cares what others think? If you love or hate a video game that's good for you! If I listened to all of the Youtubers and reviewers, I would never have played Dragon Age 2 and therefore not be hooked on Bioware games. Well, I would assume discussing topics with others, and finding out others views on things is at least part of the purpose of forums like this. I have own opinion on Veilguard, but it's generally interesting to find out other people's views that may or may not disagree with mine. 🤷♂️ In my experience people use Youtube videos to "convince" others that their opinion is wrong. Nevermind the fact that some of those Youtubers have biases and agendas as well.
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