That was my feeling as well. Perhaps an illusion of what it looked like before it was blighted, but used as a way to lure the magisters into the Black City.
Then when did the illusion go up? There had been human and elven mages visiting the Fade for thousands of years. There were no records of it being blackened before.
Just remember that every religion: Dalish, Andrastrian, Avvar and Old God thought it was the home of their god(s). This suggests it looked appropriately golden to whoever viewed but, since the Fade reflects the dreams and thoughts of those in the Waking World, this would account for its appearance, because they expected it to be that way. So in some ways it was an illusion of the Fade. Then Corypheus and Co broke in and destroyed the illusion, so thereafter it appeared as it truly was within, corrupt and black. Cory also confirmed that it was currently unoccupied. Did he find an actual empty throne or was he speaking metaphorically when he said "I have seen the throne of the gods and it was empty."
Only one religion, that of the Chantry, ever thought it was the home of just one god. However, they do believe it has 7 gates. Curious that the Maker would need so many entrances but not the Old Gods or Evanuris (since their original number was 7, with Ghilan'nain added later and Fen'Harel not counted really as one of the Creators). I believe the number of major gods in the Avvar pantheon is also 7.
I actually just had the thought before you even posted it lol.
The 7 gates is an interesting inclusion given well two of our conversations and theories I have seen floating around in the wake of the first DA teaser. That if the seven old gods are defeated it might let something worse out, that they are the locks in the prison. And while Bio may not definitively answer the question of what the Maker is we could easily see a severe context shift because *if* the Maker was what was being imprisoned behind the seven gates then what could that mean? Is it the source of the Blight? Sure many in the Chantry will say 'but that is not the Maker' and thus the question won't be definitively answered because the question will still be out there but if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...
Patreon (for my writing, posting chapters of my novel)
Eh, my takeaway from most arguments about this (with you incluced, again, as mentoned above) is a completely one-sided focus on "Dalish invasion" after Red Crossing.
There's no clear-cut Dalish teaching saying this to my knowledge, while the conversion mandate is a central aspect of (Drakon-ite) Andrastianismand its promise of "convert everyone, so Maker might return and make paradise". Certain conversion-oriented assimilationist blob beliefs are very good at playing victim or sea-lioning while totally missing that their culturally genocidial M.O. might just throw a few people off.
They were kicking out Chantry priests long before Red Crossing. And any elf who doesn’t believe what they do aren’t seen as true elves.
Uhm... it was missionaries which they kicked out. Which is their right, if someone believes into anything resembling religious freedom: If you say no, the missionary's gotta go.
But since everyone needs to worship the Maker, that cannot be. Andrastianism does not tolerate other beliefs and isn't supposed to.
EDIT: I've just realised that the history of the Dales does have a sense of history repeating itself when you consider what happened in ancient times. The Evanuris became the leaders of the elves because they initially protected them from their external enemies but their pride led to them becoming tyrants and this eventually led to the elves enslavement; in the Dales the Emerald Knights initially protected the ordinary elves from their enemies but their pride led them to attack their human neighbours and this led to the effective enslavement of the ordinary elves in the alienages.
Eh, if you want to stretch things to that extent, you could say the EKs were to prideful to retreat after the humans in Red Crossing noticed them and picked up their arms. Which begs the question if a retreat would have been possible. As well as what would have happened on the follow-up.
"Magic can't be made safe and it can't be destroyed. Fear makes men more dangerous than magic ever could." - Merrill
"Strength and steel are well and good, but magic is the true power in this world." - Wuunferth the Unliving
"Maschinen abgeschaltet, Ventilatoren kaputt! Alle ersticken und tot!"
They were kicking out Chantry priests long before Red Crossing. And any elf who doesn’t believe what they do aren’t seen as true elves.
Uhm... it was missionaries which they kicked out. Which is their right, if someone believes into anything resembling religious freedom: If you say no, the missionary's gotta go.
But since everyone needs to worship the Maker, that cannot be. Andrastianism does not tolerate other beliefs and isn't supposed to.
Thank you for agreeing with me. Anyone who supports religious freedom wouldn’t kick out people simply for trying to preach it to people who might want to listen, yet the Dales threw anyone preaching anything other than the Elven Pantheon out.
DAI basically just showed that the Dales sucked too, ironically being very similar to Tevinter and Orlais (nobility seeing themselves as better than their subjects, especially magical lines since ancestors, they are the only true religion and others aren't allowed, etc).
No, the story in DAI related to the Emerald Knights. Now they were seen as the nobility of the Dales, having earned that title in much the same way as the nobility of Ferelden were said to do originally. You are not simply noble by divine right (as Orlais believes) but because you fulfill your duty to defend the freeholders. If you fail to do this, they can give their patronage and taxes to someone else who will. The writers seem to have forgotten this by DAI, because we occupied Crestwood Keep by this ancient rite of the kingdom through defending the freeholders. Nevertheless, it would seem that the first elven occupants of the Dales adopted a similar view of nobility, perhaps copied from their human neighbours from what is now Ferelden. So the Emerald Knights were seen as nobles because they defended the rest of the elves from harm. This also gave them a certain right of autonomy to decide things politically. The priesthood of the Creators were not the political leaders but the Keepers of the Lore; hence how they acquired their title. When the Dales were conquered it was the priesthood who fled with the families of the Emerald Knights, who had probably been left in their safe keeping when their elders went to war.
The Keepers promoted the religion of the Creators because it was distinctly different from that of any of their humans neighbours. Whilst the writers showed Ameridan as someone who was able to worship in both camps, it didn't seem to chime with what we know of the Chantry religion either. Despite what Cassandra tries to push with a Dalish Inquisitor, it is not possible to believe in your own gods and the Maker. It quite specifically states that in the Chant. The reason the Keepers, and the Emerald Knights for that matter, were so sensitive about attacks on their religion is that Tevinter had forbidden their religion when they were slaves and only allowed worship of the Old Gods who had helped enslave them. It might be ironic and rather sad to think that the gods they worship also did that to their ancestors but they don't know that. It is not just about revering the past but restoring and maintaining their customs and traditions in the present. In DAO it was also about having something to pass on to the city elves when they finally had a homeland again that they could share with them. (Something that PW was either unaware of or chose to ignore when he has the Keeper in Masked Empire claim that the city elves are lost to them having been polluted beyond recovery).
As for those having magic being favoured among the surviving Dalish (also now apparently contradicted by the 3 mage rule), it was because the Keepers of the Lore said that all their ancestors were magically gifted (which we now know to be true), so every mage could be regarded as closer to what elves once were and thus they should be celebrated and protected. It was not about what is the true religion but about recovering their true selves. Ironically, whilst Solas despises the Dalish for revering the Creators and rejecting his "wisdom", he does seem to share their desire to restore the elves to their original state.
EDIT: I've just realised that the history of the Dales does have a sense of history repeating itself when you consider what happened in ancient times. The Evanuris became the leaders of the elves because they initially protected them from their external enemies but their pride led to them becoming tyrants and this eventually led to the elves enslavement; in the Dales the Emerald Knights initially protected the ordinary elves from their enemies but their pride led them to attack their human neighbours and this led to the effective enslavement of the ordinary elves in the alienages.
Ah yes, because if Thedas or the real world has taught us anything, it's that those in religious power weren't political keaders. The Chantry, the Tamassrans and Ben-Hassrath, the Shaperate, the Augurs, they're never leading things or influencing the political leaders.
A lot of what you wrote is just a prettied up version of what I wrote but in defense of the institution instead of calling it out.
No, even before DAI that sense of superiority over city-elves was there. Just look at visiting the Dalish in DAO, from calling a city elf or mage elf a flat-ear ad you're not a true elf, to them mistreated their eventually First so she had to work twice as hard to get half the credit. And it was very clear that if a city elf wanted to live in this eventual homeland, they had to aandon everything about themselves that didn't align with the Dalish. Even Merrill has this, with part of her character growth realizing the flaws in that thinking.
Yep, history repeats itself. Though it's not surprising, since the Dales and now the Dalish were trying to rebuild that even though they didn't realize the truth or irony.
Uhm... it was missionaries which they kicked out. Which is their right, if someone believes into anything resembling religious freedom: If you say no, the missionary's gotta go.
But since everyone needs to worship the Maker, that cannot be. Andrastianism does not tolerate other beliefs and isn't supposed to.
Thank you for agreeing with me. Anyone who supports religious freedom wouldn’t kick out people simply for trying to preach it to people who might want to listen, yet the Dales threw anyone preaching anything other than the Elven Pantheon out.
Thank you for showing that 1) you selectively ignored half of my post to make a disingenious gotcha 2) you apparently don't mind cultural genocide ('cause that's what cconvert-or-die belief systems produce) at all and that 3) your understanding of religious freedom seems to about the same as that of an average example of the religious right. Those also seem not to understand the concept negative religious freedom.
1) No, even before DAI that sense of superiority over city-elves was there. Just look at visiting the Dalish in DAO, from calling a city elf or mage elf a flat-ear ad you're not a true elf, to them mistreated their eventually First so she had to work twice as hard to get half the credit. And it was very clear that if a city elf wanted to live in this eventual homeland, they had to aandon everything about themselves that didn't align with the Dalish. Even Merrill has this, with part of her character growth realizing the flaws in that thinking.
2) Yep, history repeats itself. Though it's not surprising, since the Dales and now the Dalish were trying to rebuild that even though they didn't realize the truth or irony.
1) Ah, yes, what about flat-ear? It is an out-group slur both groups use for those not being part of their community, by the way.
Yeah, not that easy to think of how to deal with it when people were, you know, on the receiving end of forced conversion, such as the city elves. Well, at least you don't trash our dear Merril for supposedly being backwards and arrogant and whatever even though she, you know, doesn't convert to the western Christian-coded religion.
2) I mean, how about getting off your high Chantry-uwu horse of cultural genocide defense and acknowledge that the stupid, stupid, evil backward Dalish did not knew that? Until the DLC you wish never happened?
Last Edit: May 13, 2022 22:36:42 GMT by Buckeldemon
"Magic can't be made safe and it can't be destroyed. Fear makes men more dangerous than magic ever could." - Merrill
"Strength and steel are well and good, but magic is the true power in this world." - Wuunferth the Unliving
"Maschinen abgeschaltet, Ventilatoren kaputt! Alle ersticken und tot!"
Thank you for agreeing with me. Anyone who supports religious freedom wouldn’t kick out people simply for trying to preach it to people who might want to listen, yet the Dales threw anyone preaching anything other than the Elven Pantheon out.
Thank you for showing that 1) you selectively ignored half of my post to make a disingenious gotcha 2) you apparently don't mind cultural genocide ('cause that's what cconvert-or-die belief systems produce) at all and that 3) your understanding of religious freedom seems to about the same as that of an average example of the religious right. Those also seem not to understand the concept negative religious freedom.
1) No, even before DAI that sense of superiority over city-elves was there. Just look at visiting the Dalish in DAO, from calling a city elf or mage elf a flat-ear ad you're not a true elf, to them mistreated their eventually First so she had to work twice as hard to get half the credit. And it was very clear that if a city elf wanted to live in this eventual homeland, they had to aandon everything about themselves that didn't align with the Dalish. Even Merrill has this, with part of her character growth realizing the flaws in that thinking.
2) Yep, history repeats itself. Though it's not surprising, since the Dales and now the Dalish were trying to rebuild that even though they didn't realize the truth or irony.
1) Ah, yes, what about flat-ear? It is an out-group slur both groups use for those not being part of their community, by the way.
Yeah, not that easy to think of how to deal with it when people were, you know, on the receiving end of forced conversion, such as the city elves. Well, at least you don't trash our dear Merril for supposedly being backwards and arrogant and whatever even though she, you know, doesn't convert to the western Christian-coded religion.
2) I mean, how about getting off your high Chantry-uwu horse of cultural genocide defense and acknowledge that the stupid, stupid, evil backward Dalish did not knew that? Until the DLC you wish never happened?
1) No, I ignored half your post because it had nothing to do with what we were talking about. Yes obviously the Chantry feels that way, but we were discussing the Dales not them. 2) First, I support the right for people to choose what they believe. Second, you seem to have no issue with the Dales or Dalish committing cultural genocide on any elf that has a different culture than them. 3) Ooh, I was wondering when personal jabs were going to go into this. You're wrong, since I'm definitely not on the religious or political right, but still figured you would try that.
1) Again, why would I trash her? I don't want anyone forced into a belief or system they don't believe in. That's my issue with the Dalish dream. They only want "true elves". If you don't think, pray, etc exactly like they do, they couldn't care less about you. 2)Where have I defended the things the Chantry has done? Believe it or not, calling out one group doesn't mean you support what another group who's opposed to them does. And I never said they knew that, in fact I say in that line they didn't realize the truth of ancient elven society. I was saying that trying to recreate that culture would lead to those parallels happening.
The problem is the writers went from portraying it as both sides possibly to blame to pushing the narrative that it was wholly the Dalish. The events of Red Crossing and beyond came after more than a century of problems and in particular the rise of Orlais as an Empire to rival Tevinter, which the leadership of the Dales had always seen as a threat. (See below)
Eh, I disagree with this. The first game very much made the Dales seen like pure victims while Orlais was pure villain. DAI basically just showed that the Dales sucked too, ironically being very similar to Tevinter and Orlais (nobility seeing themselves as better than their subjects, especially magical lines since ancestors, they are the only true religion and others aren't allowed, etc).
Which may very well be a holdover from when they were ruled by the Evanuris.
I'd be willing to bet ancient Elvhenan society looked very much like Tevinter, as the Imperium apparently learned a lot from the elves.
Eh, my takeaway from most arguments about this (with you incluced, again, as mentoned above) is a completely one-sided focus on "Dalish invasion" after Red Crossing.
There's no clear-cut Dalish teaching saying this to my knowledge, while the conversion mandate is a central aspect of (Drakon-ite) Andrastianismand its promise of "convert everyone, so Maker might return and make paradise". Certain conversion-oriented assimilationist blob beliefs are very good at playing victim or sea-lioning while totally missing that their culturally genocidial M.O. might just throw a few people off.
They were kicking out Chantry priests long before Red Crossing. And any elf who doesn’t believe what they do aren’t seen as true elves.
While I'm sure that didn't exactly endear them to the Chantry, I doubt it was the deal-breaker. Drakon was BFFs with an elf who never entirely abandoned his Dalish beliefs, after all.
More likely it was the Dales basically sitting out the Second Blight while Orlais was ravaged and Monstimmard was sacked.
Uhm... it was missionaries which they kicked out. Which is their right, if someone believes into anything resembling religious freedom: If you say no, the missionary's gotta go.
But since everyone needs to worship the Maker, that cannot be. Andrastianism does not tolerate other beliefs and isn't supposed to.
Thank you for agreeing with me. Anyone who supports religious freedom wouldn’t kick out people simply for trying to preach it to people who might want to listen, yet the Dales threw anyone preaching anything other than the Elven Pantheon out.
The eternal paradox of a tolerant society is that intolerance cannot be tolerated. The Chantry preaches worship our one true god or die by the sword. There's no place for that intolerance in any other society who doesn't believe that way.
And, I'm sorry, but if someone comes knocking on my door and I tell them to go away. if they keep coming back to harass me, I have every right to take further steps to keep them from coming back again and again.
Thank you for agreeing with me. Anyone who supports religious freedom wouldn’t kick out people simply for trying to preach it to people who might want to listen, yet the Dales threw anyone preaching anything other than the Elven Pantheon out.
The eternal paradox of a tolerant society is that intolerance cannot be tolerated. The Chantry preaches worship our one true god or die by the sword. There's no place for that intolerance in any other society who doesn't believe that way.
And, I'm sorry, but if someone comes knocking on my door and I tell them to go away. if they keep coming back to harass me, I have every right to take further steps to keep them from coming back again and again.
Sure, but if they keep coming to your neighbor’s house and your neighbor seems interested, you have no right to keep them from coming back to your neighbor again and again.
They were kicking out Chantry priests long before Red Crossing. And any elf who doesn’t believe what they do aren’t seen as true elves.
While I'm sure that didn't exactly endear them to the Chantry, I doubt it was the deal-breaker. Drakon was BFFs with an elf who never entirely abandoned his Dalish beliefs, after all.
More likely it was the Dales basically sitting out the Second Blight while Orlais was ravaged and Monstimmard was sacked.
Yeah. And of course them massacring a town because a girl there loved a boy from them, followed by an invasion because if they didn’t invade they would be invaded leading to countless innocent deaths before being pushed back. But here’s a deer centuries later. We’re good now right?
This has always been one of my favorite things about Dragon Age and even one of the most real feeling. There are good Elves and bad Elves. Good mages and bad mages. Good chantry priests and bad chantry priests and a lot of people in between. And organizations, generally, tend to suck.
Patreon (for my writing, posting chapters of my novel)
Thank you for agreeing with me. Anyone who supports religious freedom wouldn’t kick out people simply for trying to preach it to people who might want to listen, yet the Dales threw anyone preaching anything other than the Elven Pantheon out.
The eternal paradox of a tolerant society is that intolerance cannot be tolerated. The Chantry preaches worship our one true god or die by the sword. There's no place for that intolerance in any other society who doesn't believe that way.
And, I'm sorry, but if someone comes knocking on my door and I tell them to go away. if they keep coming back to harass me, I have every right to take further steps to keep them from coming back again and again.
This has always been one of my favorite things about Dragon Age and even one of the most real feeling. There are good Elves and bad Elves. Good mages and bad mages. Good chantry priests and bad chantry priests and a lot of people in between. And organizations, generally, tend to suck.
I think it's more that a LOT of history has been either lost, forgotten, or twisted to suit a particular narrative. So at this point everyone is running on half-forgotten legends or flawed interpretations of "the Truth"
This has always been one of my favorite things about Dragon Age and even one of the most real feeling. There are good Elves and bad Elves. Good mages and bad mages. Good chantry priests and bad chantry priests and a lot of people in between. And organizations, generally, tend to suck.
I think it's more that a LOT of history has been either lost, forgotten, or twisted to suit a particular narrative. So at this point everyone is running on half-forgotten legends or flawed interpretations of "the Truth"
That is the other aspect of DA that I love. But it really is a seperate issue from the one we are talking about on the 'diversity' angle.
But these two aspects of Dragon Age tend to be what makes Dragon Age *unique* for me and the two aspects which have gone a long way to making it my favorite fictional setting.
Patreon (for my writing, posting chapters of my novel)
1) No, I ignored half your post because it had nothing to do with what we were talking about. Yes obviously the Chantry feels that way, but we were discussing the Dales not them. 2) First, I support the right for people to choose what they believe. Second, you seem to have no issue with the Dales or Dalish committing cultural genocide on any elf that has a different culture than them. 3) Ooh, I was wondering when personal jabs were going to go into this. You're wrong, since I'm definitely not on the religious or political right, but still figured you would try that.
1) Again, why would I trash her? I don't want anyone forced into a belief or system they don't believe in. That's my issue with the Dalish dream. They only want "true elves". If you don't think, pray, etc exactly like they do, they couldn't care less about you. 2)Where have I defended the things the Chantry has done? Believe it or not, calling out one group doesn't mean you support what another group who's opposed to them does. And I never said they knew that, in fact I say in that line they didn't realize the truth of ancient elven society. I was saying that trying to recreate that culture would lead to those parallels happening.
1) Eh, it has everything to do with it. What we are talking about here is, yet again, a religion which believes that any other is automatically wrong and should not exist, in essence. At all. Not just for race X. Now imagine looking at that from a Dales-time Dalish perspective (which no andrastian in-universe ever seems to do, not even Leliana. It is as if they cannot comprehend it), busy rebuilding, who don't go out of their way to convert humans by the way. 2) If you support that right, it is simply incompatible with Andrastianism as we know it, regardless of Dalish or whoever. Nice try at playing direct reversal, but as far as we know, it doesn't apply to the Dales at least. Did we miss some Dales-Andrastian cults? Else, there's apparently no culture yet which could be destroyed. The question would also be if city elven andrastianism is different from the human version.
I'd say there's a difference between beliefs which are tied to ethnicity to some degree and those which aren't and might into wanting to claim everyone, whether they want it or not. Or sustainability-focused in part vs. expansionist? Dalish beliefs might claim elves (modern Dalish only those who'd want to join their clans anyway), Andrastianism as well as the Qun claim everyone, at swordpoint if necessary, while the former isn't usually into participation depending on your race, your just there to be a number on the list of saved souls.
3) Apparently your victory-claiming gotcha doesn't count. Direct jabs only then? Sorry that I'm obviously worse at them. Doesn't change the part about negative freedom though. In the end, it seems to come down to if we have a religion which carries a conversion mandate and would therefore ultimately lead to the destruction of everyone else's religious freedom, then this particular religion is not free to act on that mandate, even if it is ten times part of their sincerely-held beliefs. Say there's a preacher appearing at your door. In the end, you don't want to hear what they have to say and tell them to go away. What are you to do if they refuse to leave?
Again, why would I trash her? I don't want anyone forced into a belief or system they don't believe in. That's my issue with the Dalish dream. They only want "true elves". If you don't think, pray, etc exactly like they do, they couldn't care less about you.
The question is, even if you strip the supposed arrogance of Dalish in this regard away, what does this mean for the city elven side? Where are they supposed to stop if they think Dalish beliefs are wrong and need more Maker?
The eternal paradox of a tolerant society is that intolerance cannot be tolerated. The Chantry preaches worship our one true god or die by the sword. There's no place for that intolerance in any other society who doesn't believe that way.
And, I'm sorry, but if someone comes knocking on my door and I tell them to go away. if they keep coming back to harass me, I have every right to take further steps to keep them from coming back again and again.
And if, say, your neighbor now thinks you, still following the now-infidel stuff, need to be converted, comes over and starts badgering you and burning your books? Asking for a Dalish clan.
While I'm sure that didn't exactly endear them to the Chantry, I doubt it was the deal-breaker. Drakon was BFFs with an elf who never entirely abandoned his Dalish beliefs, after all.
More likely it was the Dales basically sitting out the Second Blight while Orlais was ravaged and Monstimmard was sacked.
Yeah. And of course them massacring a town because a girl there loved a boy from them, followed by an invasion because if they didn’t invade they would be invaded leading to countless innocent deaths before being pushed back. But here’s a deer centuries later. We’re good now right?
Eh, the situation was a bit more complicated than that. But why invoke both-sides-ism as Bioware likes to do if it just reverses the black-and-white for those with already-set opinions?
That... "deer" is valuable from Dalish perspective, a symbol. But that symbols is rejected in a sense, if you did not notice, by the advisor texts for example. What do you want them to do anyway and how could that end without anyone exploiting it?
Eh, I disagree with this. The first game very much made the Dales seen like pure victims while Orlais was pure villain. DAI basically just showed that the Dales sucked too, ironically being very similar to Tevinter and Orlais (nobility seeing themselves as better than their subjects, especially magical lines since ancestors, they are the only true religion and others aren't allowed, etc).
Which may very well be a holdover from when they were ruled by the Evanuris.
I'd be willing to bet ancient Elvhenan society looked very much like Tevinter, as the Imperium apparently learned a lot from the elves.
And Orlais learned a lot from the Imperium, claims to be sooooooo much better and seems to get a degree of pass more often than not. Is it because "no mages here allowed here"? Is it because it is western-Christian inspired? Questions, questions.
They were kicking out Chantry priests long before Red Crossing. And any elf who doesn’t believe what they do aren’t seen as true elves.
While I'm sure that didn't exactly endear them to the Chantry, I doubt it was the deal-breaker. Drakon was BFFs with an elf who never entirely abandoned his Dalish beliefs, after all.
More likely it was the Dales basically sitting out the Second Blight while Orlais was ravaged and Monstimmard was sacked.
Yeah, and in the light of everything else, Drakon's relationship with Ameridan makes little sense and is barely explained. Looks like Drakon was a bit of a hypocrite for having an elven syncretist around while he had other andrastian cults (read: different interpretations, but without anything elven in them) happily slaughtered?
The eternal paradox of a tolerant society is that intolerance cannot be tolerated. The Chantry preaches worship our one true god or die by the sword. There's no place for that intolerance in any other society who doesn't believe that way.
And, I'm sorry, but if someone comes knocking on my door and I tell them to go away. if they keep coming back to harass me, I have every right to take further steps to keep them from coming back again and again.
wait, the missionaries were carrying swords!?
That's an irrelevant literal gotcha? And if they don't go away when if told (and consider bringing swords because you don't want to listen to them) and you are okay with that, you just proved that you actually don't get what religious freedom is. Peak western Christian arrogance then, perhaps with a dose of american exceptionalism?
This has always been one of my favorite things about Dragon Age and even one of the most real feeling. There are good Elves and bad Elves. Good mages and bad mages. Good chantry priests and bad chantry priests and a lot of people in between. And organizations, generally, tend to suck.
Haven't seen a Chantry priest I'd call "good". Just people who are not totally awful despite being Chantry priests. Comes with the mixture of doctrine and arrogance. Leliana's the only example I can find right now (if she counts as a priest, that is) which would qualify as good for me, but even she's got some big blinders.
I think it's more that a LOT of history has been either lost, forgotten, or twisted to suit a particular narrative. So at this point everyone is running on half-forgotten legends or flawed interpretations of "the Truth"
But it really is a seperate issue from the one we are talking about on the 'diversity' angle.
All Your Codex Entries Are Belong Written To Brother Genitivi.
Last Edit: May 14, 2022 0:48:58 GMT by Buckeldemon
"Magic can't be made safe and it can't be destroyed. Fear makes men more dangerous than magic ever could." - Merrill
"Strength and steel are well and good, but magic is the true power in this world." - Wuunferth the Unliving
"Maschinen abgeschaltet, Ventilatoren kaputt! Alle ersticken und tot!"
1) No, I ignored half your post because it had nothing to do with what we were talking about. Yes obviously the Chantry feels that way, but we were discussing the Dales not them. 2) First, I support the right for people to choose what they believe. Second, you seem to have no issue with the Dales or Dalish committing cultural genocide on any elf that has a different culture than them. 3) Ooh, I was wondering when personal jabs were going to go into this. You're wrong, since I'm definitely not on the religious or political right, but still figured you would try that.
1) Again, why would I trash her? I don't want anyone forced into a belief or system they don't believe in. That's my issue with the Dalish dream. They only want "true elves". If you don't think, pray, etc exactly like they do, they couldn't care less about you. 2)Where have I defended the things the Chantry has done? Believe it or not, calling out one group doesn't mean you support what another group who's opposed to them does. And I never said they knew that, in fact I say in that line they didn't realize the truth of ancient elven society. I was saying that trying to recreate that culture would lead to those parallels happening.
1) Eh, it has everything to do with it. What we are talking about here is, yet again, a religion which believes that any other is automatically wrong and should not exist, in essence. At all. Not just for race X. Now imagine looking at that from a Dales-time Dalish perspective (which no andrastian in-universe ever seems to do, not even Leliana. It is as if they cannot comprehend it), busy rebuilding, who don't go out of their way to convert humans by the way. 2) If you support that right, it is simply incompatible with Andrastianism as we know it, regardless of Dalish or whoever. Nice try at playing direct reversal, but as far as we know, it doesn't apply to the Dales at least. Did we miss some Dales-Andrastian cults? Else, there's apparently no culture yet which could be destroyed. The question would also be if city elven andrastianism is different from the human version.
I'd say there's a difference between beliefs which are tied to ethnicity to some degree and those which aren't and might into wanting to claim everyone, whether they want it or not. Or sustainability-focused in part vs. expansionist? Dalish beliefs might claim elves (modern Dalish only those who'd want to join their clans anyway), Andrastianism as well as the Qun claim everyone, at swordpoint if necessary, while the former isn't usually into participation depending on your race, your just there to be a number on the list of saved souls.
3) Apparently your victory-claiming gotcha doesn't count. Direct jabs only then? Sorry that I'm obviously worse at them. Doesn't change the part about negative freedom though. In the end, it seems to come down to if we have a religion which carries a conversion mandate and would therefore ultimately lead to the destruction of everyone else's religious freedom, then this particular religion is not free to act on that mandate, even if it is ten times part of their sincerely-held beliefs. Say there's a preacher appearing at your door. In the end, you don't want to hear what they have to say and tell them to go away. What are you to do if they refuse to leave?
Again, why would I trash her? I don't want anyone forced into a belief or system they don't believe in. That's my issue with the Dalish dream. They only want "true elves". If you don't think, pray, etc exactly like they do, they couldn't care less about you.
The question is, even if you strip the supposed arrogance of Dalish in this regard away, what does this mean for the city elven side? Where are they supposed to stop if they think Dalish beliefs are wrong and need more Maker?
And, I'm sorry, but if someone comes knocking on my door and I tell them to go away. if they keep coming back to harass me, I have every right to take further steps to keep them from coming back again and again.
And if, say, your neighbor now thinks you, still following the now-infidel stuff, need to be converted, comes over and starts badgering you and burning your books? Asking for a Dalish clan.
Yeah. And of course them massacring a town because a girl there loved a boy from them, followed by an invasion because if they didn’t invade they would be invaded leading to countless innocent deaths before being pushed back. But here’s a deer centuries later. We’re good now right?
Eh, the situation was a bit more complicated than that. But why invoke both-sides-ism as Bioware likes to do if it just reverses the black-and-white for those with already-set opinions?
That... "deer" is valuable from Dalish perspective, a symbol. But that symbols is rejected in a sense, if you did not notice, by the advisor texts for example. What do you want them to do anyway and how could that end without anyone exploiting it?
Which may very well be a holdover from when they were ruled by the Evanuris.
I'd be willing to bet ancient Elvhenan society looked very much like Tevinter, as the Imperium apparently learned a lot from the elves.
And Orlais learned a lot from the Imperium, claims to be sooooooo much better and seems to get a degree of pass more often than not. Is it because "no mages here allowed here"? Is it because it is western-Christian inspired? Questions, questions.
While I'm sure that didn't exactly endear them to the Chantry, I doubt it was the deal-breaker. Drakon was BFFs with an elf who never entirely abandoned his Dalish beliefs, after all.
More likely it was the Dales basically sitting out the Second Blight while Orlais was ravaged and Monstimmard was sacked.
Yeah, and in the light of everything else, Drakon's relationship with Ameridan makes little sense and is barely explained. Looks like Drakon was a bit of a hypocrite for having an elven syncretist around while he had other andrastian cults (read: different interpretations, but without anything elven in them) happily slaughtered?
That's an irrelevant literal gotcha? And if they don't go away when if told (and consider bringing swords because you don't want to listen to them) and you are okay with that, you just proved that you actually don't get what religious freedom is. Peak western Christian arrogance then, perhaps with a dose of american exceptionalism?
This has always been one of my favorite things about Dragon Age and even one of the most real feeling. There are good Elves and bad Elves. Good mages and bad mages. Good chantry priests and bad chantry priests and a lot of people in between. And organizations, generally, tend to suck.
Haven't seen a Chantry priest I'd call "good". Just people who are not totally awful despite being Chantry priests. Comes with the mixture of doctrine and arrogance. Leliana's the only example I can find right now (if she counts as a priest, that is) which would qualify as good for me, but even she's got some big blinders.
But it really is a seperate issue from the one we are talking about on the 'diversity' angle.
All Your Codex Entries Are Belonh Written To Brother Genitivi.
I disagree with the first assertion but the second one did give me a good chuckle.
Apprepro of really nothing maybe and maybe it was my fault for my word choice but I was generally meaning all chantry characters in the first place. And I am sure we will disagree on this good does not imply perfect. There will be characters who are generally good people but still have the biases of the time which color their perceptions.
Patreon (for my writing, posting chapters of my novel)
Mother Giselle seemed like a pretty good person to me. Didn’t she canonically save thousands of people in Jader from starvation by going on a hunger strike and then ensuring supplies were distributed to the poor before the Chantry priests?
Mother Giselle seemed like a pretty good person to me. Didn’t she canonically save thousands of people in Jader from starvation by going on a hunger strike and then ensuring supplies were distributed to the poor before the Chantry priests?
Yeah, there’s been lots of good Chantry priests and priestesses. Especially when you count the minor characters, from Origins(Mother Mallol and the sisters in Denerim) to Inquisition(Mother Giselle and the other Sisters and brothers who help the Inquisition). Even DA2, which tended to be the worst of everybody, had good ones.
Which may very well be a holdover from when they were ruled by the Evanuris.
I'd be willing to bet ancient Elvhenan society looked very much like Tevinter, as the Imperium apparently learned a lot from the elves.
And Orlais learned a lot from the Imperium, claims to be sooooooo much better and seems to get a degree of pass more often than not. Is it because "no mages here allowed here"? Is it because it is western-Christian inspired? Questions, questions.
Orlais has its own problems, but being ruled by magisters isn't one of them.
While I'm sure that didn't exactly endear them to the Chantry, I doubt it was the deal-breaker. Drakon was BFFs with an elf who never entirely abandoned his Dalish beliefs, after all.
More likely it was the Dales basically sitting out the Second Blight while Orlais was ravaged and Monstimmard was sacked.
Yeah, and in the light of everything else, Drakon's relationship with Ameridan makes little sense and is barely explained. Looks like Drakon was a bit of a hypocrite for having an elven syncretist around while he had other andrastian cults (read: different interpretations, but without anything elven in them) happily slaughtered?
Or...we don't have all the details of what was going on a thousand years ago?
That's an irrelevant literal gotcha? And if they don't go away when if told (and consider bringing swords because you don't want to listen to them) and you are okay with that, you just proved that you actually don't get what religious freedom is. Peak western Christian arrogance then, perhaps with a dose of american exceptionalism?
Religious freedom is: as long as the swords stay sheathed, you can preach whatever the hell you want. And I'll believe whatever the hell I want.
Or did Brother Burkel get what was coming to him?[/div]
Jen Cheverie Cott 💙 @jencheverie It's showcase day!!
Alain Baxter @alainbaxter Dragons? In Dragon Age? What a coincidence!
John Epler @eplerjc It's showcase day, my very favourite day. An opportunity to see all the incredibly cool shit the team has done, because games are Big and there's a lot going on all the time, forever.
Jon Renish @jonrenish The night before spent editing videos however...
I disagree with the first assertion but the second one did give me a good chuckle.
Apprepro of really nothing maybe and maybe it was my fault for my word choice but I was generally meaning all chantry characters in the first place. And I am sure we will disagree on this good does not imply perfect. There will be characters who are generally good people but still have the biases of the time which color their perceptions.
Sure, I'd make a difference between, say Chantry agents (priests/templars/seekers...) and people who are... just andrastians. Circle mages are difficult to put into either of these boxes tho, being forced employees.
Mother Giselle seemed like a pretty good person to me. Didn’t she canonically save thousands of people in Jader from starvation by going on a hunger strike and then ensuring supplies were distributed to the poor before the Chantry priests?
Yeah, there’s been lots of good Chantry priests and priestesses. Especially when you count the minor characters, from Origins(Mother Mallol and the sisters in Denerim) to Inquisition(Mother Giselle and the other Sisters and brothers who help the Inquisition). Even DA2, which tended to be the worst of everybody, had good ones.
Eh, "Inquisition member" is a pretty sweeping category. Giselle, while not adhering to the orders of the higher-ups when it came to "food for Orlesians first, Fereldans after that and if there's something left, city elves", still spews a ton of arrogant Chantry BS. But since she as one of our designated buddies in a sense, no dice. Chantry priest counterpart to Varric or Cullen in this regard.
I mean, people seem to like to bitch a ton about arrogant elves and whatnot, I have the same reactions with a lot of Chantry personnel. *shrugs*
And Orlais learned a lot from the Imperium, claims to be sooooooo much better and seems to get a degree of pass more often than not. Is it because "no mages here allowed here"? Is it because it is western-Christian inspired? Questions, questions.
1) Orlais has its own problems, but being ruled by magisters isn't one of them.
Yeah, and in the light of everything else, Drakon's relationship with Ameridan makes little sense and is barely explained. Looks like Drakon was a bit of a hypocrite for having an elven syncretist around while he had other andrastian cults (read: different interpretations, but without anything elven in them) happily slaughtered?
2) Or...we don't have all the details of what was going on a thousand years ago?
That's an irrelevant literal gotcha? And if they don't go away when if told (and consider bringing swords because you don't want to listen to them) and you are okay with that, you just proved that you actually don't get what religious freedom is. Peak western Christian arrogance then, perhaps with a dose of american exceptionalism?
3) Religious freedom is: as long as the swords stay sheathed, you can preach whatever the hell you want. And I'll believe whatever the hell I want.
Or did Brother Burkel get what was coming to him?
1) There isn't that much difference. Magister=entitled asshole noble with some extra tools.
2) Well, I did say "in light of" and "barely explained".
3) And if I say "no" and "go away" to the preacher after a while and they don't?
Funny that people even remember that guy. It usually is "nobody sends missionaries, ackshually".
Last Edit: May 14, 2022 2:56:24 GMT by Buckeldemon
"Magic can't be made safe and it can't be destroyed. Fear makes men more dangerous than magic ever could." - Merrill
"Strength and steel are well and good, but magic is the true power in this world." - Wuunferth the Unliving
"Maschinen abgeschaltet, Ventilatoren kaputt! Alle ersticken und tot!"
I disagree with the first assertion but the second one did give me a good chuckle.
Apprepro of really nothing maybe and maybe it was my fault for my word choice but I was generally meaning all chantry characters in the first place. And I am sure we will disagree on this good does not imply perfect. There will be characters who are generally good people but still have the biases of the time which color their perceptions.
Sure, I'd make a difference between, say Chantry agents (priests/templars/seekers...) and people who are... just andrastians. Circle mages are difficult to put into either of these boxes tho, being forced employees.
Yeah, there’s been lots of good Chantry priests and priestesses. Especially when you count the minor characters, from Origins(Mother Mallol and the sisters in Denerim) to Inquisition(Mother Giselle and the other Sisters and brothers who help the Inquisition). Even DA2, which tended to be the worst of everybody, had good ones.
Eh, "Inquisition member" is a pretty sweeping category. Giselle, while not adhering to the orders of the higher-ups when it came to "food for Orlesians first, Fereldans after that and if there's something left, city elves", still spews a ton of arrogant Chantry BS. But since she as one of our designated buddies in a sense, no dice. Chantry priest counterpart to Varric or Cullen in this regard.
I mean, people seem to like to bitch a ton about arrogant elves and whatnot, I have the same reactions with a lot of Chantry personnel. *shrugs*
1) Orlais has its own problems, but being ruled by magisters isn't one of them.
2) Or...we don't have all the details of what was going on a thousand years ago?
3) Religious freedom is: as long as the swords stay sheathed, you can preach whatever the hell you want. And I'll believe whatever the hell I want.
Or did Brother Burkel get what was coming to him?
1) There isn't that much difference. Magister=entitled asshole noble with some extra tools.
2) Well, I did say "in light of" and "barely explained".
3) And if I say "no" and "go away" to the preacher after a while and they don't?
Funny that people even remember that guy. It usually is "nobody sends missionaries, ackshually".
1) Tell that to Solas 2) So you agree we don't have all the facts. Good. 3) That means they have to leave you alone. But there are other people in the Dales, who might be more receptive.
But you didn't answer the question: Did Brother Burkel get what was coming to him?