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Post by Grog Muffins on May 14, 2022 6:29:32 GMT
the people sending them were. So as long as the swords are way over there, who gives a f*ck what the people WITHOUT swords are saying? It's never that simple. Orlais did an Exalted March alone on the Dales and still curb stomped the elves. It didn't matter that the swords were a little further away, as long as the threat was always there, directly or indirectly, and their experiences told them to be wary of anyone who tried to take their culture away. A society that's trying to rebuild itself from a millennia of slavery, trying to put itself back together, has the right to refuse your worship. They want theirs, that was stripped from them. They tell you no once, they tell you no twice, you keep insisting, so you get thrown out and they isolate themselves, because you can't seem to take no for an answer. That should have been the moment for everyone involved to understand that things were heading for a bad end but radicals are rarely logical. And I'm referring to radicals on both sides, the Chantry kept pushing but a state doesn't completely close its borders without at least a degree of radical elements. Unfortunately, a situation like this is very hard to diffuse without violence, it's complicated beyond measure. The Emerald Knights killed an innocent girl because they already had the experience of the Chantry not giving up on ruining their attempts to rebuild their culture and then they panicked because of their history as the elves of that time knew it - all they knew was that humans kept prodding them to adopt a new religion and culture while they were trying to rebuild the one that had been forcefully taken away from them in a thousand years of slavery. From their point of view, one life taken was just as bad as an entire city and just as valid of an excuse for retaliation. They were in the shitter, may as well go down fighting. However, the degree of Orlais' response with the Exalted March was just overblown. They could have easily taken care of them without using their religion as a bludgeon and they did try to get all of Thedas to pretty much annihilate the elves. They didn't need to call it an Exalted March and they didn't need to yell for help to the entire continent but they did. They made the statement that it is their divine right to bring the Maker's wrath upon the elves like that. Then they took the Dales from the elves and started forcefully converting them, putting them in shanty towns and never allowing them to truly leave the muck, all the while calling them children of the maker and saying He loves all of them equally. At the end of it all, seems like Orlais turned out no better than what Tevinter did during their slavery and their fears became true, even if it was a self fulfilling prophesy.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 14, 2022 7:12:14 GMT
Eh, if you want to stretch things to that extent, you could say the EKs were to prideful to retreat after the humans in Red Crossing noticed them and picked up their arms. Which begs the question if a retreat would have been possible. As well as what would have happened on the follow-up. Actually I was referring to the decision to march against Val Royeaux. Red Crossing as explained in DAI struck me as a bit of a nonsense as being the catalyst to start a major war, bearing in mind there had already been tensions along the border. However, the elves marching on the capital of Orlais was something else. Did the Emerald Knights seriously believe that would ever result in outright victory? May be they did think that Orlais was so hated by their neighbouring human states that they would stay out of it (which Giselle maintains was the case) but, even so, Orlais was a pretty big nation to take on and think you could defeat the entire country. Nevertheless, they did almost pull off taking Val Royeaux, which only failed when their leading general was killed. It was probably the element of surprise that enabled this because likely the Orlesians never imagined they would do anything so audacious either. The set back over the general allowed Orlais the time to regroup and conduct a counter offensive that ultimately led to the destruction of the elven army, which was always likely to be the result once the Chevaliers got their act together. It was purely a numbers thing; there were so many more humans than elves. It was the nearly successful assault on Val Royeaux that probably accounted for the exile of all elves from the Dales because Orlais didn't want to risk anything like that happening again. It can't have escaped their notice that a relatively small army of elves had achieved this, so what might they do as a greater force? According to Masked Empire apparently the Orlesians still had a fear of a rebellion led by the Dalish because they thought their numbers were greater than they actually were (at least in Orlais). Then Celene and Gaspard discovered how small each Dalish band actually is and realised they weren't really a threat at all. Incidentally, the Grey Wardens were clearly no fools as they realised the effectiveness of elven fighters, no matter how small their numbers, which is why they signed up the Dalish to assist in any Blight that occurred in the region they were in. Something you will note the Dalish as a whole agreed to and came through on their promise once they received word the Grey Warden treaty had been activated. Everyone keeps pointing to how the Dalish refused to help Drakon against the 2nd Blight but that was him specifically, not the Grey Wardens. Plus, of course, if there were darkspawn emerging across Orlais, it is likely they were emerging in the Dales as well, so the Emerald Knights had their work cut out dealing with them. In any case, as I keep pointing out, Montsimmard is not in the Dales, so if the elves were seen watching as the darkspawn overran that city, it is highly likely they had marched to assist but arrived too late to do anything except hold the line to prevent the darkspawn spreading eastwards.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 14, 2022 8:01:46 GMT
No, even before DAI that sense of superiority over city-elves was there. Just look at visiting the Dalish in DAO, from calling a city elf or mage elf a flat-ear ad you're not a true elf, to them mistreated their eventually First so she had to work twice as hard to get half the credit. And it was very clear that if a city elf wanted to live in this eventual homeland, they had to aandon everything about themselves that didn't align with the Dalish. Even Merrill has this, with part of her character growth realizing the flaws in that thinking. Even the alienage elves look down on elves that leave and try to co-exist with the humans. They say how they are now stuck between cultures, not accepted by either, and eventually tend to be driven back to the alienage by their human neighbours. Merrill's thinking in DA2 aligned with how the writers decided to change their portrayal of the Dalish over time. Layana competed to be First with the other apprentice mages. Naturally they were going to resent the newcomer no matter what their religion was. However, they were prepared to accept that she got there on merit and she not only became Keeper after Zathrian's death but also the main guiding force in the new elven region of the Dalish boon (which was swept away with a rather lame "sorry that didn't work out" from Alistair in DA2 or no explanation whatsoever if he wasn't king). Layana trying to mediate between the Dalish and their human neighbours also tied in with the view expressed by the Storyteller of the Sabrae clan that when they had another homeland the city elves might well have something useful to contribute in how to co-exist with their human neighbours. If you don't think, pray, etc exactly like they do, they couldn't care less about you. You seem to be parroting what PW would have us believe in Masked Empire which contradicted what we were told in DAO. The reason the Dalish considered themselves superior is because they were the elves who would not submit to human domination. "We are the last of the elvhen and never again will we submit." In DAO they were always happy to take in city elves because they had chosen freedom over the relative safety of the alienage. Even the city elves see themselves as safer inside the alienage than out of it, whether living among humans or with the Dalish. Being a Dalish is a hard and dangerous life; under constant threat from humans who object to their presence and the creatures of the wild. They stick with it because they value their own autonomy. True, at the very least they expect people not to reject the gods or be openly hostile towards their religion but that is part and parcel of being a Dalish. In Thedas there are very few people that have no belief whatsoever. Even the Qun is a form of religion, just without a deity. The Chantry insist there is no god but the Maker and everyone is meant to conform to this. In Tevinter, everyone also follows their version of Andrastrianism (unless they are secret Old God cultists or the Venatori) because it is the State religion. Some are more fervent followers than others but it is illegal to adhere any religion but the State one. So the Dalish are only like everyone else and if anything less strict than their human neighbours. It really annoys me that people dump on them for this. The writers are also to blame. In DAO I could see the faults of the Dalish as well as their virtues but I admired them for their determination to remain independent both in culture and religion. Then from DA2 there was a shift in the way they were written, expanded on in Masked Empire and then even more so in DAI and its associated DLC, so that the Dalish appeared in a very unfavourable way compared with other cultures. It didn't help that leading elven characters such as Briala, Felassan, Sera and Solas all have a disparaging view of the Dalish, which is going to further influence the way players view them. Then if our Dalish Inquisitor is allowed to defend their culture at all, which is seldom, the response always seems to be that their clan is likely an exception and the Dalish are gradually growing apart (which totally contradicts the idea of the Arlathven as a place where ideas are exchanged and the culture is maintained across the clans). Finally, up pops Ameridan who seems to contradict everything, including the Chantry faith, when it comes to his relationship with Drakon. Someone who admits he knows that Drakon wants to "simplify" religion to the exclusion of all others and by then has already massacred many of the surrounding human tribes in order to achieve this, yet Ameridan criticises his own people for not wishing to work with the guy. One good thing about Tevinter Nights is the PW seemed to have decided to redress the balance with Strife and his clan. I'm still not convinced they are genuine Dalish, or at least Strife was a genuine city elf when he joined them, but at least it seemed to be getting back to the sort of portrayal we had of the Dalish in DAO with Strife giving credit to Andruil if they survive their ordeal because of the skills she taught to his people in the past. That is how the Dalish in DAO viewed their religion. They follow the gods because they believe they have useful lessons to teach about how to live and the skills they imparted. It is irrelevant what the gods were really because they don't know this. The Creators taught them how to survive in a hostile world and important moral values. The Way of Three Trees is one such example. At least the Keepers try to encourage people to follow these teachings, as opposed to the Chantry which merely gives lip service to the moral imperatives of the Chant and is content so long as people repeat it parrot fashion. If the clan do not follow the teachings of the Keepers concerning the gods, it is likely they will not survive because they have a practical value, so it is hardly surprising if they insist upon it and even reject those who refuse to do so.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 14, 2022 8:48:06 GMT
While I'm sure that didn't exactly endear them to the Chantry, I doubt it was the deal-breaker. Drakon was BFFs with an elf who never entirely abandoned his Dalish beliefs, after all. More likely it was the Dales basically sitting out the Second Blight while Orlais was ravaged and Monstimmard was sacked. Please see my above posts. It is the writers who are all over the place with this but there is a definite trend towards trashing the Dalish in DAI and associated DLC, which does contradict much of what we were previously told/experienced. Ameridan's beliefs don't chime with anything we were told about the Chantry and Drakon, mostly in WoT2 but elsewhere too. " There is but one god and He is our Maker. They are sinners who have given their love to false gods." Now WoT2 does seem to suggest that the barbarian tribes did not hold this belief and worshiped the Maker as part of their pantheon of gods, which is why Drakon forced them to submit to his "simplified" version of the faith. So Ameridan's faith could have been consistent with the surrounding tribes at the time the Dales was established but not what was the version of the faith in Orlais at the time JoH was set, when Drakon had eliminated all opposition in Orlais, established his State religion (mimicking the sort of thought he likely got from his Tevinter father because one State religion went with one Imperium) and was gradually expanding his empire under the pretext of spreading the faith. Ameridan admits he knew this and yet thinks his fellow Dalish are bad for not wishing to assist the empire building grandson of a Tevinter Altus. Ameridan was a heretic of the Chantry religion for worshiping Andraste as a god, something the Chant itself repudiates. Then he compounds this by giving her equal status with Ghilan'nain, a false god in Chantry doctrine. Either Drakon was unaware of this or turned a blind eye because Ameridan was a useful stooge in getting the Inquisition to come into the Chantry fold. Previously they had been an independent group who treated everyone equally, whether noble or peasant, so achieving justice for all; clearly that couldn't be tolerated by an Emperor who believed in Divine Right. A hundred years later when the trouble blew up between the two nations, the Chantry position would not have relaxed from this initial starting point of non toleration of other gods but if anything would have become more rigid. As for the accusation that the Dales ignored the Blight, if it was in Orlais then it was likely in the Dales too. However, see my comments about Montsimmard. Earlier histories also state that Drakon only went north originally because he thought he could make territorial gains whilst the Imperium was under pressure from the Blight but then received word from the Grey Wardens and saw an opportunity in going to their rescue. He did annex the Anderfels as a result, although they rejected Orlesian rule once Drakon was dead even though they retained his religion. Also, bear in mind that in the Third Blight both Orlais and Tevinter used getting rid of the darkspawn as a reason to enter a state/country and then conveniently didn't return home afterwards, whereas in the Fourth Blight neither got involved outside their own nation at all because it largely didn't effect them and presumably they saw no gain in getting involved. So looking after your own people and interests ahead of rushing to defend your neighbours was not just a feature of the Dalish leadership.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 14, 2022 9:00:59 GMT
Gotta love how to some a “fair and unbiased portrayal” is “you can’t say anything negative about them” followed by hypocrisy, lies, double standards, and whataboutisms.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 14, 2022 11:25:19 GMT
Gotta love how to some a “fair and unbiased portrayal” is “you can’t say anything negative about them” followed by hypocrisy, lies, double standards, and whataboutisms. Please specify. I try not to lie. I just state what has previously been in games or source books and then perhaps put my own interpretation on the evidence because it does seem slanted in one particular way. There was much in DAI that did contradict what had gone before with regard to the lore of the Dalish. The 3 mage rule where they abandon surplus mage children in the wilderness in particular did not make sense in a culture where the Keeper is always a mage and they are trying to recover what they once were, when they say they were all once had magic. It was a change from what happened with Merrill where it was so important they had a mage to be Keeper after Marathari that another clan was generous enough to let them adopt one of their children because they were fortunate enough to have more than three. Back in DAO the Dalish did seem to have a more welcoming attitude to city elves who wished to join their clan having rejected life under human rule, or suffered under it. To be honest, when I read Masked Empire, the Keeper and clan there sounded like heretics compared with the clans and codices of DAO. Then all is explained away in DAI by the clans having grown apart: in just 10 years? If I seem overly positive in my comments, it is merely to redress the balance of the negative comments against them. It is not hypocritical to say that they are similar to every other major nation and culture. I think Thedas is a pretty shitty place to live if you are not one of the elite/aristocracy no matter what your race or home nation. On the whole, the cultures which appeal tend to be on the fringes of civilisation but even then it is possible to view them with rose tinted spectacles. The Avvar we dealt with, as opposed to the Hakkonites, appeared to be reasonable enough, yet it shouldn't be forgotten that historically they were a constant threat to the lowlanders from raiding parties even when there wasn't some fanatic to lead them in wholesale slaughter. The tradition set up in Rivain with their Seers seems a lot better on the face of it than either the Chantry or the Qun, certainly if you are a mage, unless you happen to be a man because they believe that women, in other words the Seers, are best suited to rule. Yet you have to wonder why so many people willingly joined the Qun if it was totally benign. It has occurred to me in the past that essentially the Keepers of Lore and the nobility of the Dales abandoned the ordinary elves to their fate. If Briala had unreasonable expectations of the Dalish, may be the Dalish were to blame for that in letting the elves they left behind think they would some day come back to save them. Trouble is that the city elves in DAO didn't seem to think that, although I did find it peculiar that the city elves in DA2 were so reverential towards Marathari. Other elves with vallaslin had come to live among them without being regarded as anything special, so why the honour shown to the Keeper of clan Sabrae? Another throw away comment in JoH that I would like to have had explained was Ameridan saying Telana should remind the Dalish leaders of the alliance with Drakon. Back in the day, there was an alliance between Andraste and Shartan, which Maferath honoured even after the two of them had been killed by gifting the Dales to the elves. However, if the Dalish could be thought to have an alliance with anyone, it is the Alamarri not Drakon. After all, Orlais didn't even exist back then. There were simply multiple tribes of the Ciriane. Presumably the Dales were agreed upon because Andraste's mother was Ciriane and thus she was gifting something that actually she had authority over. Whatever the case, the Dalish owed no allegiance to Drakon as Emperor of Orlais and so I was puzzled by Ameridan saying this. My problem is with a lot of lore in the game, particularly if they start changing or introducing things at variance with what we were told before, is that often it doesn't make sense or the reasons given are illogical. This is why I tend to want to defend what I was previously told until I am given a reason not to beyond simply the writers chose ignore it or the oft quoted in-world unreliable narrator.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 14, 2022 11:52:10 GMT
Yeah. And of course them massacring a town because a girl there loved a boy from them, followed by an invasion because if they didn’t invade they would be invaded leading to countless innocent deaths before being pushed back. But here’s a deer centuries later. We’re good now right? The whole Red Crossing thing was very superficial handling of the whole thing. Some faux Romeo and Juliet story to account for a major conflict between nations. I had been hoping for something a bit more substantial and nuanced than that. Plus we had always been told that no one knew precisely what happened, yet someone had to have left that account there. Did they not pass on the information at least among the Dalish? Apparently not. Yet this episode was meant to be the catalyst for everything that followed. Even that codex in the chateau in the Emerald Graves seemed to still follow the idea that Red Crossing was a pretext for Orlais to invade for illegal land grab purposes, which was odd bearing in mind the author was a human scholar and other codices suggest the Dalish were the aggressors in attacking Val Royeaux. So reading between the lines and taking into account how long this was after Ameridan suggested there was already hostility towards Orlais in his time among the Dalish leadership, it seems obvious that Red Crossing was just the culmination of a century of tension between the two nations and what should have been a regrettable local incident provided the flash point that started a war. The Dalish in DAI were attempting to make a peace offering to foster goodwill. You are very disingenuous to mock this gesture. Of course, they didn't imagine that this would erase the events of the past. They were trying to build a better future between them and their human neighbours. How unlike the Dalish, hmm? Then the options we were given at the War Table were: Force it on the village whether they agree to accept it or not (Cullen); Trick the village into accepting it by saying it is the spoil of war (Leliana); or bribe/coerce/essentially use the Game to get the offering accepted and even then I wasn't sure if the village would know it was a peace offering (Josephine). None of them seemed to respect the spirit in which the gift was made. Mind you, that was better than giving the information to the Chantry priestess, who merely used it to confirm her own prejudices. At least the Dalish clan seemed to have a sense of shame and regret about what had happened in the past. What would you have had them do?
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Post by gervaise21 on May 14, 2022 12:09:23 GMT
Mother Giselle seemed like a pretty good person to me. Didn’t she canonically save thousands of people in Jader from starvation by going on a hunger strike and then ensuring supplies were distributed to the poor before the Chantry priests? She was a good person on the whole but she did tend to put an interesting spin on a lot of Chantry dogma. The Exalted March on the Dales wasn't really an exalted march because only Orlais took part but the participants seemed to think it was a holy war based on the codices on the Exalted Plains. The strictures against mages were made by Andraste because of her experiences with Tevinter but the Chantry aren't really against mages. That is an interesting take on the entire history of the Circles, particularly considering there was nothing about having Circles in the Chant but they were an invention of Hessarian that was later adopted by Drakon, who just happened to be the grandson of a Tevinter Altus. Then gradually they changed from places of education, as they still are in Tevinter, to places of permanent confinement. So far as I can tell from Andraste's teaching in the Chant, all she condemned was the misuse of magic but magic itself is a gift of the Maker, so why does Giselle try to place the blame for corralling mages on her? I think she also is in favour of promoting the idea of you as Herald of Andraste. After all, she does lead the choir exalting you after Haven. She must also be aware of your later discovery that it wasn't Andraste who sent you to be saviour but I'm pretty sure she tows the line that telling the truth would be bad for the people. Also, she is rather underhanded where Dorian is concerned, pretending concern for his family when actually she is trying to get rid of him. Dorian correctly saw right through this. However, Giselle does admit she was wrong about Dorian in Trespasser. So as Chantry priestesses go, she is a good person, but considering some of those we have encountered along the way, that doesn't set the bar very high.
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Post by Sartoz on May 14, 2022 12:26:48 GMT
Gotta love how to some a “fair and unbiased portrayal” is “you can’t say anything negative about them” followed by hypocrisy, lies, double standards, and whataboutisms. Big Snip . My problem is with a lot of lore in the game, particularly if they start changing or introducing things at variance with what we were told before, is that often it doesn't make sense or the reasons given are illogical
And that is my main reason for ignoring Lore. I can enjoy the game regardless of canon changes or inconsistencies between the series.
Plus, I'm sure Bio writers are having a gas reading players' interpretations of events and Lore minutiae. Gives them a lift knowing how many fans are out there. (◔‿◔)
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Post by Iakus on May 14, 2022 13:23:52 GMT
Mother Giselle seemed like a pretty good person to me. Didn’t she canonically save thousands of people in Jader from starvation by going on a hunger strike and then ensuring supplies were distributed to the poor before the Chantry priests? She was a good person on the whole but she did tend to put an interesting spin on a lot of Chantry dogma. The Exalted March on the Dales wasn't really an exalted march because only Orlais took part but the participants seemed to think it was a holy war based on the codices on the Exalted Plains. The strictures against mages were made by Andraste because of her experiences with Tevinter but the Chantry aren't really against mages. That is an interesting take on the entire history of the Circles, particularly considering there was nothing about having Circles in the Chant but they were an invention of Hessarian that was later adopted by Drakon, who just happened to be the grandson of a Tevinter Altus. Then gradually they changed from places of education, as they still are in Tevinter, to places of permanent confinement. So far as I can tell from Andraste's teaching in the Chant, all she condemned was the misuse of magic but magic itself is a gift of the Maker, so why does Giselle try to place the blame for corralling mages on her?
I think she also is in favour of promoting the idea of you as Herald of Andraste. After all, she does lead the choir exalting you after Haven. She must also be aware of your later discovery that it wasn't Andraste who sent you to be saviour but I'm pretty sure she tows the line that telling the truth would be bad for the people. Also, she is rather underhanded where Dorian is concerned, pretending concern for his family when actually she is trying to get rid of him. Dorian correctly saw right through this. However, Giselle does admit she was wrong about Dorian in Trespasser. So as Chantry priestesses go, she is a good person, but considering some of those we have encountered along the way, that doesn't set the bar very high. I do find it interesting how the Circles went in two different directions between Tevinter and the Southern Chantry. In the north, the Circles took over completely, basically restoring Tevinter to itshighly stratified cosiety wehre mages rule over everyone,, and the Chantry is just a puppet organization for the Magisterium (The Black Divine is always "coincidentally" a magister, I believe), and blood magic is still practiced, albeit on the down-lo. While in the south, the Circles went in the opposite direction and, barring a couple of exceptions, was a horribly oppressive place where mages are often abused.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 21,073 Likes: 49,889
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Post by Iakus on May 14, 2022 13:32:38 GMT
So as long as the swords are way over there, who gives a f*ck what the people WITHOUT swords are saying? It's never that simple. Orlais did an Exalted March alone on the Dales and still curb stomped the elves. It didn't matter that the swords were a little further away, as long as the threat was always there, directly or indirectly, and their experiences told them to be wary of anyone who tried to take their culture away. A society that's trying to rebuild itself from a millennia of slavery, trying to put itself back together, has the right to refuse your worship. They want theirs, that was stripped from them. They tell you no once, they tell you no twice, you keep insisting, so you get thrown out and they isolate themselves, because you can't seem to take no for an answer. That should have been the moment for everyone involved to understand that things were heading for a bad end but radicals are rarely logical. And I'm referring to radicals on both sides, the Chantry kept pushing but a state doesn't completely close its borders without at least a degree of radical elements. Unfortunately, a situation like this is very hard to diffuse without violence, it's complicated beyond measure. The Emerald Knights killed an innocent girl because they already had the experience of the Chantry not giving up on ruining their attempts to rebuild their culture and then they panicked because of their history as the elves of that time knew it - all they knew was that humans kept prodding them to adopt a new religion and culture while they were trying to rebuild the one that had been forcefully taken away from them in a thousand years of slavery. From their point of view, one life taken was just as bad as an entire city and just as valid of an excuse for retaliation. They were in the shitter, may as well go down fighting. However, the degree of Orlais' response with the Exalted March was just overblown. They could have easily taken care of them without using their religion as a bludgeon and they did try to get all of Thedas to pretty much annihilate the elves. They didn't need to call it an Exalted March and they didn't need to yell for help to the entire continent but they did. They made the statement that it is their divine right to bring the Maker's wrath upon the elves like that. Then they took the Dales from the elves and started forcefully converting them, putting them in shanty towns and never allowing them to truly leave the muck, all the while calling them children of the maker and saying He loves all of them equally. At the end of it all, seems like Orlais turned out no better than what Tevinter did during their slavery and their fears became true, even if it was a self fulfilling prophesy. It IS that simple. The Missionaries were literally just talk. When the Exalted March on the Dales happened, that's when the swords came out. This is not to say Orlais was innocent in this. It was the very definition of disproportionate retribution. But the Dalish did play a role in their own destruction.
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Post by Iakus on May 14, 2022 13:34:38 GMT
While I'm sure that didn't exactly endear them to the Chantry, I doubt it was the deal-breaker. Drakon was BFFs with an elf who never entirely abandoned his Dalish beliefs, after all. More likely it was the Dales basically sitting out the Second Blight while Orlais was ravaged and Monstimmard was sacked. Please see my above posts. It is the writers who are all over the place with this but there is a definite trend towards trashing the Dalish in DAI and associated DLC, which does contradict much of what we were previously told/experienced. Ameridan's beliefs don't chime with anything we were told about the Chantry and Drakon, mostly in WoT2 but elsewhere too. " There is but one god and He is our Maker. They are sinners who have given their love to false gods." Now WoT2 does seem to suggest that the barbarian tribes did not hold this belief and worshiped the Maker as part of their pantheon of gods, which is why Drakon forced them to submit to his "simplified" version of the faith. So Ameridan's faith could have been consistent with the surrounding tribes at the time the Dales was established but not what was the version of the faith in Orlais at the time JoH was set, when Drakon had eliminated all opposition in Orlais, established his State religion (mimicking the sort of thought he likely got from his Tevinter father because one State religion went with one Imperium) and was gradually expanding his empire under the pretext of spreading the faith. Ameridan admits he knew this and yet thinks his fellow Dalish are bad for not wishing to assist the empire building grandson of a Tevinter Altus. Ameridan was a heretic of the Chantry religion for worshiping Andraste as a god, something the Chant itself repudiates. Then he compounds this by giving her equal status with Ghilan'nain, a false god in Chantry doctrine. Either Drakon was unaware of this or turned a blind eye because Ameridan was a useful stooge in getting the Inquisition to come into the Chantry fold. Previously they had been an independent group who treated everyone equally, whether noble or peasant, so achieving justice for all; clearly that couldn't be tolerated by an Emperor who believed in Divine Right. A hundred years later when the trouble blew up between the two nations, the Chantry position would not have relaxed from this initial starting point of non toleration of other gods but if anything would have become more rigid. As for the accusation that the Dales ignored the Blight, if it was in Orlais then it was likely in the Dales too. However, see my comments about Montsimmard. Earlier histories also state that Drakon only went north originally because he thought he could make territorial gains whilst the Imperium was under pressure from the Blight but then received word from the Grey Wardens and saw an opportunity in going to their rescue. He did annex the Anderfels as a result, although they rejected Orlesian rule once Drakon was dead even though they retained his religion. Also, bear in mind that in the Third Blight both Orlais and Tevinter used getting rid of the darkspawn as a reason to enter a state/country and then conveniently didn't return home afterwards, whereas in the Fourth Blight neither got involved outside their own nation at all because it largely didn't effect them and presumably they saw no gain in getting involved. So looking after your own people and interests ahead of rushing to defend your neighbours was not just a feature of the Dalish leadership. And how certain are you that the histories weren't written in a way to slant perception towards Drakon as well? The only person we have ever interacted with who knew Drakon spoke highly of him. And that person was a Dalish elf.
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Post by Walter Black on May 14, 2022 14:15:05 GMT
It's never that simple. Orlais did an Exalted March alone on the Dales and still curb stomped the elves. It didn't matter that the swords were a little further away, as long as the threat was always there, directly or indirectly, and their experiences told them to be wary of anyone who tried to take their culture away. A society that's trying to rebuild itself from a millennia of slavery, trying to put itself back together, has the right to refuse your worship. They want theirs, that was stripped from them. They tell you no once, they tell you no twice, you keep insisting, so you get thrown out and they isolate themselves, because you can't seem to take no for an answer. That should have been the moment for everyone involved to understand that things were heading for a bad end but radicals are rarely logical. And I'm referring to radicals on both sides, the Chantry kept pushing but a state doesn't completely close its borders without at least a degree of radical elements. Unfortunately, a situation like this is very hard to diffuse without violence, it's complicated beyond measure. The Emerald Knights killed an innocent girl because they already had the experience of the Chantry not giving up on ruining their attempts to rebuild their culture and then they panicked because of their history as the elves of that time knew it - all they knew was that humans kept prodding them to adopt a new religion and culture while they were trying to rebuild the one that had been forcefully taken away from them in a thousand years of slavery. From their point of view, one life taken was just as bad as an entire city and just as valid of an excuse for retaliation. They were in the shitter, may as well go down fighting. However, the degree of Orlais' response with the Exalted March was just overblown. They could have easily taken care of them without using their religion as a bludgeon and they did try to get all of Thedas to pretty much annihilate the elves. They didn't need to call it an Exalted March and they didn't need to yell for help to the entire continent but they did. They made the statement that it is their divine right to bring the Maker's wrath upon the elves like that. Then they took the Dales from the elves and started forcefully converting them, putting them in shanty towns and never allowing them to truly leave the muck, all the while calling them children of the maker and saying He loves all of them equally. At the end of it all, seems like Orlais turned out no better than what Tevinter did during their slavery and their fears became true, even if it was a self fulfilling prophesy. It IS that simple. The Missionaries were literally just talk. When the Exalted March on the Dales happened, that's when the swords came out. Not necessarily; while some missionaries were genuine, others were more likely in the Dales to gain political and economic influence, as well as spies. We know that the Catholic Church, the Chantry's primary inspiration, does this all the time, so I doubt that Bioware wouldn't have their version do so as well.
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Post by Iakus on May 14, 2022 14:29:22 GMT
It IS that simple. The Missionaries were literally just talk. When the Exalted March on the Dales happened, that's when the swords came out. Not necessarily; while some missionaries were genuine, others were more likely in the Dales to gain political and economic influence, as well as spies. We know that the Catholic Church, the Chantry's primary inspiration, does this all the time, so I doubt that Bioware wouldn't have their version do so as well. That is certainly possible. But as far as we know, the Dalish simply didn't want their culture "tainted" by human influence. An understandable, if bigoted response. And like I said, I'm sure the biggest blow to their image was refusing to aid in the Second Blight. And yes, I keep mentioning it because that would be a BIG DEAL. The First Blight took almost 200 years to end, engulfed the entire continent, and nearly wiped out everyone. And in the end ALL the Grey Wardens died taking out Dumat that last time (later Grey Wardens were created using notes the originals left behind) That another Blight happened would have scared the crap out of everyone! And even now knowing more about the darkspawn it still took ninety years to kill Zazikel. Even if the Dalish did have reason not to get involved, and for some reason chose not to tell anyone, that this would bring resentment in a nation that was ravaged by darkspawn for generations would certainly be understandable.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 14, 2022 15:05:58 GMT
And how certain are you that the histories weren't written in a way to slant perception towards Drakon as well? The only person we have ever interacted with who knew Drakon spoke highly of him. And that person was a Dalish elf. Actually the funny thing is that if you only went by what we have been told about Drakon in game, you would think better of him. After all, we had previously been told he tried to stop the Game, although I find it hard to imagine it was the same as it is currently when the Empire had only just been established and previously the area was just lots of barbarian tribes periodically warring with one another. It is almost as though the writers of World of Thedas and World of Thedas 2 decided to ignore what we had previously been told when they came up with the whole history of Drakon. Apparently the chief engineer of the Game was the wife of one of Maferath's sons, who shafted her husband by siding with his sibling against him and then shafted her ally once he was out of the picture. Then Drakon came to power because his father married and up an coming female leader among the tribes, helping her to become ultimate Gothi (high queen). Nevertheless, that is pretty much normal medieval type political rivalry, whereas the Game seems something more. Most of the criticism I level at Drakon is taken from the history given about him in WoT2. WoT1 even seems to admit that it was never his intention to remove mages from circulation completely, just to ensure they couldn't assume positions of political power, although they were allowed to be advisers to the same. So it was entirely in keeping with this that he was able to view a mage such as Ameridan as an ally and trust him not to abuse his position as leader of the Inquisition. Either he didn't care that Ameridan had some strange religious beliefs in contradiction with his own or he wasn't aware of what Ameridan was doing in private. Clearly Ameridan did revere Andraste, so may be that was enough for Drakon. For that matter, the Dalish give Andraste her due and admit she was on good terms with Shartan. This is reflected in both the Canticle of Shartan, where she sees him as an equal in the eyes of the Maker, that came from Dalish oral belief, and the teaching of Keeper Ralaferin that Andraste called Shartan "brother". The difference is that the Dalish understand this as brother in arms, whereas the Chantry reinterpreted this to mean a disciple of Andraste. However, what I take issue with is how Ameridan seems to ignore Drakon's ambition to "simplify" the faith, which suggests he does know something of the events of WoT2. Also, I seem to recall that if you encounter him as a Qunari, a race that Ameridan has no previous acquaintance with, he assumes this is because Drakon's empire has expanded to encompass them. So he knows what Drakon is about with regard to empire building as well. Now may be he just sees the danger of his people in opposing this man but he doesn't say as much. Instead he seems to regard them as wrong to reject him as "no better than Tevinter", when clearly that is a pretty accurate description of what Drakon aspires to: an empire run by non-mages to rival the magocracy to the north. Then he wonders why Drakon never came looking for him. Cassandra says it was because he was too busy with the Blight in the Anderfels but he didn't head north until some 10 years after this and to be honest, if the Avvar were considered such a threat, wouldn't Drakon have at least tried to keep lines of communication going so he knew what was going on in the south? Moreover, to get to Orlais the Avvar would have had to cross the Dales, so you think Ameridan would have got the assistance of the Emerald Knights as they were a threat to the elves, or would have to go by a very long route via Ferelden, so plenty of time before they got to Orlais if they even aimed that far. That is another odd part of the narrative.
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Post by Grog Muffins on May 14, 2022 15:09:49 GMT
It IS that simple. The Missionaries were literally just talk. When the Exalted March on the Dales happened, that's when the swords came out. This is not to say Orlais was innocent in this. It was the very definition of disproportionate retribution. But the Dalish did play a role in their own destruction. It's easy to say that in hindsight. What proof did the elves have to believe the missionaries? They were trying to rebuild their society and here come these humans who say that actually they shouldn't do it and just adopt their culture instead, or at least let a small number of curious or willing elves to do it, if they didn't want to do it on a societal level. That's prime manipulation for a slow cultural genocide, at worst, and it showed the Chantry's blatant disrespect for all the elves had lost during their slavery, at best. Were the missionaries there out of truly altruistic reasons or were they there with a less than savory agenda, we may never know, but the appearance was pretty opportunistic and it was simply in poor taste. When you've been beaten and stripped violently of your identity and you try to regain it, you're not going to take kindly to someone else who's saying that maybe you shouldn't and be more like them. Even if the words are honeyed, the intent is still the same. They both have a degree of blame in what happened, the elves started with committing an atrocity that they did not try to resolve peacefully (maybe it would have been possible maybe not, but I don't remember if they had tried) and Orlais's response was overblown. This was a powder keg of a situation built up and blown up by two stubborn societies but you can't say the elves were irrational in their desire to just be left alone and have that desire be respected.
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Post by Grog Muffins on May 14, 2022 15:18:57 GMT
That is certainly possible. But as far as we know, the Dalish simply didn't want their culture "tainted" by human influence. An understandable, if bigoted response. And like I said, I'm sure the biggest blow to their image was refusing to aid in the Second Blight. And yes, I keep mentioning it because that would be a BIG DEAL. The First Blight took almost 200 years to end, engulfed the entire continent, and nearly wiped out everyone. And in the end ALL the Grey Wardens died taking out Dumat that last time (later Grey Wardens were created using notes the originals left behind) That another Blight happened would have scared the crap out of everyone! And even now knowing more about the darkspawn it still took ninety years to kill Zazikel. Even if the Dalish did have reason not to get involved, and for some reason chose not to tell anyone, that this would bring resentment in a nation that was ravaged by darkspawn for generations would certainly be understandable. How would we know that they didn't tell anyone? We had no idea Ameridan was an elf until we spoke with him. He was a very well known figure, the leader of the Inquisition, Drakon's best friend, families in Orlais bragged about being descended from him, and yet history conveniently forgot he was an elf. Verses from the Chant that make mention of the elves and of Shartan and his contributions to Andraste's rebellion were stricken and made dissonant after the Exalted March on the Dales. It's not hard to imagine that the elves may have made it known they couldn't offer support to Orlais or could offer only very little and have that history be replaced with one that made them out to be even more villainous and radical.
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Post by Iakus on May 14, 2022 15:29:12 GMT
And how certain are you that the histories weren't written in a way to slant perception towards Drakon as well? The only person we have ever interacted with who knew Drakon spoke highly of him. And that person was a Dalish elf. Actually the funny thing is that if you only went by what we have been told about Drakon in game, you would think better of him. After all, we had previously been told he tried to stop the Game, although I find it hard to imagine it was the same as it is currently when the Empire had only just been established and previously the area was just lots of barbarian tribes periodically warring with one another. It is almost as though the writers of World of Thedas and World of Thedas 2 decided to ignore what we had previously been told when they came up with the whole history of Drakon. Apparently the chief engineer of the Game was the wife of one of Maferath's sons, who shafted her husband by siding with his sibling against him and then shafted her ally once he was out of the picture. Then Drakon came to power because his father married and up an coming female leader among the tribes, helping her to become ultimate Gothi (high queen). Nevertheless, that is pretty much normal medieval type political rivalry, whereas the Game seems something more. Most of the criticism I level at Drakon is taken from the history given about him in WoT2. WoT1 even seems to admit that it was never his intention to remove mages from circulation completely, just to ensure they couldn't assume positions of political power, although they were allowed to be advisers to the same. So it was entirely in keeping with this that he was able to view a mage such as Ameridan as an ally and trust him not to abuse his position as leader of the Inquisition. Either he didn't care that Ameridan had some strange religious beliefs in contradiction with his own or he wasn't aware of what Ameridan was doing in private. Clearly Ameridan did revere Andraste, so may be that was enough for Drakon. For that matter, the Dalish give Andraste her due and admit she was on good terms with Shartan. This is reflected in both the Canticle of Shartan, where she sees him as an equal in the eyes of the Maker, that came from Dalish oral belief, and the teaching of Keeper Ralaferin that Andraste called Shartan "brother". The difference is that the Dalish understand this as brother in arms, whereas the Chantry reinterpreted this to mean a disciple of Andraste. However, what I take issue with is how Ameridan seems to ignore Drakon's ambition to "simplify" the faith, which suggests he does know something of the events of WoT2. Also, I seem to recall that if you encounter him as a Qunari, a race that Ameridan has no previous acquaintance with, he assumes this is because Drakon's empire has expanded to encompass them. So he knows what Drakon is about with regard to empire building as well. Now may be he just sees the danger of his people in opposing this man but he doesn't say as much. Instead he seems to regard them as wrong to reject him as "no better than Tevinter", when clearly that is a pretty accurate description of what Drakon aspires to: an empire run by non-mages to rival the magocracy to the north. Then he wonders why Drakon never came looking for him. Cassandra says it was because he was too busy with the Blight in the Anderfels but he didn't head north until some 10 years after this and to be honest, if the Avvar were considered such a threat, wouldn't Drakon have at least tried to keep lines of communication going so he knew what was going on in the south? Moreover, to get to Orlais the Avvar would have had to cross the Dales, so you think Ameridan would have got the assistance of the Emerald Knights as they were a threat to the elves, or would have to go by a very long route via Ferelden, so plenty of time before they got to Orlais if they even aimed that far. That is another odd part of the narrative. Drakon's goal seemed to be to provide stability in the South, not just personal power for himself. Something the Inquisition would endorse, as they were formed to restore order to a world torn apart by the First Blight and the disintegration of the Imperium (it sounds very much that Thedas at the time was basically a fantasy post-apacolyptic world). It could be that Drakon was an honorable enough man that Ameridan felt he would be a good leader in this empire. Just because barbarians are...barbarians, doesn't mean they can't have their own backstabbing politics, after all. According to the Codex, Drakon did search for Ameridan: A close friend of Kordillus Drakon, the Orlesian emperor responsible for the Chantry's creation, Ameridan vanished soon after the Inquisition's dissolution. Some believe he went on a failed dragon hunt; others say he dropped out of sight so as to not overshadow the newly created Templar Order. Whatever the truth, despite an extensive search ordered by the emperor, he was never seen again.At any rate, I wonder how much of Orlais' failing could be laid at the feet of Drakon's son, rather than him. It seems he was a much weaker leader, who did not share his father's trust in the Dalish, was neither the politician nor the general Drakon Sr was. And in the end it was he who sent troops to the Exalted march on the dales. Ameridan himself says that Kordillas II "betrayed" them when told of what happened.
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Post by Iakus on May 14, 2022 15:33:05 GMT
That is certainly possible. But as far as we know, the Dalish simply didn't want their culture "tainted" by human influence. An understandable, if bigoted response. And like I said, I'm sure the biggest blow to their image was refusing to aid in the Second Blight. And yes, I keep mentioning it because that would be a BIG DEAL. The First Blight took almost 200 years to end, engulfed the entire continent, and nearly wiped out everyone. And in the end ALL the Grey Wardens died taking out Dumat that last time (later Grey Wardens were created using notes the originals left behind) That another Blight happened would have scared the crap out of everyone! And even now knowing more about the darkspawn it still took ninety years to kill Zazikel. Even if the Dalish did have reason not to get involved, and for some reason chose not to tell anyone, that this would bring resentment in a nation that was ravaged by darkspawn for generations would certainly be understandable. How would we know that they didn't tell anyone? We had no idea Ameridan was an elf until we spoke with him. He was a very well known figure, the leader of the Inquisition, Drakon's best friend, families in Orlais bragged about being descended from him, and yet history conveniently forgot he was an elf. Verses from the Chant that make mention of the elves and of Shartan and his contributions to Andraste's rebellion were stricken and made dissonant after the Exalted March on the Dales. It's not hard to imagine that the elves may have made it known they couldn't offer support to Orlais or could offer only very little and have that history be replaced with one that made them out to be even more villainous and radical. Now you're catching on! It is true. It may be that they did send work to Drakon or his son what happened, and it either didn't get to them or was ignored. Or that this information was lost over the thousand years since then. However, we have no evidence either on the Dalish or Orlesian side that this happened. If such evidence, or even a hint of it, does spring up later, that will be another piece to add to the puzzle. but as it is, it's just a "maybe" with no evidence to back it up.
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Post by Hrungr on May 14, 2022 15:55:09 GMT
Shayna Moon @qorquiq The Big Lie of AAA game development is that extending a deadline can reduce crunch. It isn’t true and I don’t know who’s been perpetuating it. Crunch gets mitigated in the initial planning and if you see a team doing a death march, it’s because leadership failed or didn’t care.
David Gaider @davidgaider Generally speaking, a team will have been crunching like mad to try to meet the original deadline. If the release date is finally moved, it's because they had no choice. They can now crunch for longer. I've never heard of a date shift meaning "okay you can relax for a bit whew".
Olivia White @nosleepolivia Yeah I feel like people who say it 'can reduce crunch' in any real meaningful way are not often mentioning the part where this is only true if it's extended on paper during planning, before the project actually starts.
David Gaider @davidgaider Or maybe an early course correction, yeah. I suspect that only happens, however, is if minimizing or eliminating crunch is already a goal of the studio. So many simply have the expectation of crunch already baked into their schedules.
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Post by Hrungr on May 14, 2022 16:48:11 GMT
Brianne Battye 🦇 @bbattyeSo... I've been writing video games for ten years now! That's a really long time! I've been lucky to work with amazing people who helped me become a better writer & developer. And I'm grateful to everyone who has offered support over the years, in one way or another.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 14, 2022 18:23:26 GMT
Whatever the truth, despite an extensive search ordered by the emperor, he was never seen again. I still think that having absolutely no back up go with Ameridan was an odd way to do things. When we went to the Frostback Basin we had full back up and lines of communication. Even allowing for the 2nd Blight the lack of a means of feedback to relay information to Drakon is most peculiar, particularly as the Blight seemed to have abated somewhat at that time, thus allowing Drakon to deal with things such as bringing the Inquisition under the Chantry and creating the Templar Order. I can understand people not being able to find Ameridan, since he was trapped behind the ice wall, but Telana having no one to contact on the island and no one finding her remains is less plausible. Also, why didn't Cassandra just say to Ameridan that Drakon did search for him but found no trace, rather than making the excuse about the Blight, which Ameridan would have known about? At any rate, I wonder how much of Orlais' failing could be laid at the feet of Drakon's son, rather than him. It seems he was a much weaker leader, who did not share his father's trust in the Dalish, was neither the politician nor the general Drakon Sr was. And in the end it was he who sent troops to the Exalted march on the dales. Ameridan himself says that Kordillas II "betrayed" them when told of what happened. I would agree with this. The evidence suggests that Drakon did regard the Dales as sacrosanct, which is why he did make efforts to get the elves on side by getting his Divine to include Shartan in the Chant and not encroaching on their territory. I must admit, perhaps that is why he did leave it up to Ameridan to deal with the Avvar because it would have been difficult for Drakon to move his army to do so quickly without seeming to invade the Dales and provoking the leadership there. Kordillas II was a far inferior leader than his father. He lost the Anderfels only 20 years after his father's death and whilst he might like to take credit for the end of the Blight in Orlais, it had dragged on long enough that it had become a war of attrition by then and in any case had moved further east into the Freemarches. Then he nearly lost Val Royeaux to the elves. Clearly he did not have his father's aptitude for war, since his name is not mentioned as being part of the Exalted March. As you say, though, he did betray the elves, just as the shade of Shartan maintained when speaking of his ally Andraste: "She was betrayed and so were we." Maferath did not betray the followers of Shartan who survived (many of whom died with Shartan trying to rescue her) because he honoured her wishes that the elves should have a homeland, so it had to be the later betrayal to which Shartan referred. Bear in mind that the debt to him and his elves was great because without their intervention at the Battle of the Valarian Fields, her Exalted March would have ended there and Hessarian would never have had to come to terms with Maferath, ceding the south to him.
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Post by colfoley on May 14, 2022 20:11:15 GMT
Shayna Moon @qorquiqThe Big Lie of AAA game development is that extending a deadline can reduce crunch. It isn’t true and I don’t know who’s been perpetuating it. Crunch gets mitigated in the initial planning and if you see a team doing a death march, it’s because leadership failed or didn’t care. David Gaider @davidgaiderGenerally speaking, a team will have been crunching like mad to try to meet the original deadline. If the release date is finally moved, it's because they had no choice. They can now crunch for longer. I've never heard of a date shift meaning "okay you can relax for a bit whew". Olivia White @nosleepolivia Yeah I feel like people who say it 'can reduce crunch' in any real meaningful way are not often mentioning the part where this is only true if it's extended on paper during planning, before the project actually starts. David Gaider @davidgaiderOr maybe an early course correction, yeah. I suspect that only happens, however, is if minimizing or eliminating crunch is already a goal of the studio. So many simply have the expectation of crunch already baked into their schedules. This is concerning though I do wonder if this is the reason, probably coupled with what happend with Cyberpunk, that companies are more hesistant to release release dates. God of War and Hogwarts legacy are both (supposedly) coming out this year and yet we still don't have a release date for them. I wonder if companies now are tailoring their release dates around the progress of the actual game being produced and not the other way around, tailoring the games production around some nebulous date. While I am sure this will lead to crunch still hopefully this will at leasst mitigate it a little and this does beg the question how this will effect DAs marketing. Wonder how late we will get an actual release date even when they start marketing it?
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on May 14, 2022 20:25:00 GMT
Shayna Moon @qorquiqThe Big Lie of AAA game development is that extending a deadline can reduce crunch. It isn’t true and I don’t know who’s been perpetuating it. Crunch gets mitigated in the initial planning and if you see a team doing a death march, it’s because leadership failed or didn’t care. David Gaider @davidgaiderGenerally speaking, a team will have been crunching like mad to try to meet the original deadline. If the release date is finally moved, it's because they had no choice. They can now crunch for longer. I've never heard of a date shift meaning "okay you can relax for a bit whew". Olivia White @nosleepolivia Yeah I feel like people who say it 'can reduce crunch' in any real meaningful way are not often mentioning the part where this is only true if it's extended on paper during planning, before the project actually starts. David Gaider @davidgaiderOr maybe an early course correction, yeah. I suspect that only happens, however, is if minimizing or eliminating crunch is already a goal of the studio. So many simply have the expectation of crunch already baked into their schedules. This is concerning though I do wonder if this is the reason, probably coupled with what happend with Cyberpunk, that companies are more hesistant to release release dates. God of War and Hogwarts legacy are both (supposedly) coming out this year and yet we still don't have a release date for them. I wonder if companies now are tailoring their release dates around the progress of the actual game being produced and not the other way around, tailoring the games production around some nebulous date. While I am sure this will lead to crunch still hopefully this will at leasst mitigate it a little and this does beg the question how this will effect DAs marketing. Wonder how late we will get an actual release date even when they start marketing it? That's why Bethesda was smart with Fallout 4. They announced it about six months before release, iirc.
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Post by colfoley on May 14, 2022 20:29:32 GMT
This is concerning though I do wonder if this is the reason, probably coupled with what happend with Cyberpunk, that companies are more hesistant to release release dates. God of War and Hogwarts legacy are both (supposedly) coming out this year and yet we still don't have a release date for them. I wonder if companies now are tailoring their release dates around the progress of the actual game being produced and not the other way around, tailoring the games production around some nebulous date. While I am sure this will lead to crunch still hopefully this will at leasst mitigate it a little and this does beg the question how this will effect DAs marketing. Wonder how late we will get an actual release date even when they start marketing it? That's why Bethesda was smart with Fallout 4. They announced it about six months before release, iirc. 100% agree. Ubisoft did something similar with Breakpoint as well. I think they almost did with Vahalla but then that went through with a delay to so it didn't end up working. And in the end though I do wonder if that is even a hard rule anymore though because its already May so if we don't get a release date for those two games and they stick to the six month window it will fall till next year, which given the whole economic quarters thing I suppose is possible in the first place it could get pushed back and this year means next year we could see an even shorter release date. While I wouldn't expect them to do this with DA 4 given its a full game I think I cannot ignore the possibility either that we didn't get a release date for the LE what 3-4 months out? Maybe they will do that with DA 4. Marketing the game up till then, giving us a release window but not an actual date until very close to release.
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