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Post by vertigomez on Jan 7, 2019 16:32:36 GMT
It would be interesting if some of the elven companions joined Solas...for the purposes of funneling back information to the Inquisition as a double agent. I could get behind that, at least. Ooh, that could be cool. Maybe they could be swayed to one side or the other, like Bull. 👀
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Post by naughtynomad on Jan 8, 2019 16:14:39 GMT
Merrill, Valanna, and Fenris would all join Solas in a heartbeat. They might have some reservations about his methods, but they would agree with his end goal. A free elven empire ruling the world. If Fenris was in favour of this then he would be a total hypocrite. He is against magic, full stop. So why would he aid Solas in restoring a world with a free flow of magic? If he heard that the Veil was created in the first place to trap all powerful tyrant mages and that dropping it would free them, why would he want to do that? Merrill wanted to restore the eluvian to help the elven people but he was thoroughly against her and that wasn't simply because she used blood magic to achieve her aims. Anders didn't want to use blood magic but Fenris was against him because he wanted to give mages more freedom. If Fenris knew the Viddasala had been trying to strengthen the Veil, I think he'd more likely have supported her. There are other ways of achieving freedom for the elven slaves that wouldn't involve flooding the world with magic. So unless Solas or his agent were very careful in concealing the real intent from Fenris I don't think he would knowingly support the schemes of Fen'Harel, an ancient elf mage god. Remember just saying we would restore the world of the elves might flag up danger signals to him since the Dalish constantly teach that once upon a time all elves had magic. You people would make terrible writers... seeing things in such absolutes. Fenris hates Tevinter. The whole empire. He hates mages as a result of them exercising their power to rule over others and enslave non-mages. He doesn't just hate mages as is evidenced by the fact that a mage Hawke can romance him. Solas is a mage, but he is a liberator. He liberates oppressed people. He led a rebellion against the old elven overlords and over threw them. He does whatever is needed and makes whatever sacrifices needed to accomplish his goals. He and Fenris are basically the same thing. Fenris would likely sign up to liberate the downtrodden elves and crush Tevinter. Merrill would sign up to see the culture and pride of the elves restored. She and Solas share the same views on "forbidden" magics. Valanna would sign up because she hates humans, and hates that her people are under their boot. Zevran could sign up as he feels a kinship to elves, and if Solas made it worth his while in material pleasures, he'd probably go all in. (Nothing personal, just business)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 8, 2019 16:37:10 GMT
Merrill would sign up to see the culture and pride of the elves restored. She and Solas share the same views on "forbidden" magics. Not really. They only both agree that blood magic in and of itself isn’t bad but how it is used. They disagree on pretty much everything else, for example Solas sees spirits as friends while Merrill sees them as as dangerous so you need to be cautious. Also he is literally the devil of her religion, and she on multiple occasions talks about how trusting the Dread Wolf is bad.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 8, 2019 17:52:34 GMT
You people would make terrible writers... seeing things in such absolutes. Fenris hates Tevinter. The whole empire. He hates mages as a result of them exercising their power to rule over others and enslave non-mages. He doesn't just hate mages as is evidenced by the fact that a mage Hawke can romance him. No, not a terrible writer but listened to what he says. He will eventually conceded that Hawke is the one mage that proves the rule. He also is okay with Bethany because she doesn't abuse her powers. However, he quite clearly states that it is "magic" that ruins everything, not just Tevinter. Yes, he hates Tevinter because it is a mage empire but I'm pretty sure he would still do that even if they didn't have slaves because he feels that it is inevitable that a mage will fall to temptation eventually. He has a similar low opinion of mages in the south, even when they are not aligned with Tevinter. The reason he would have approved of Solas' actions in the past is that he not only fought the mage overlords but he took action that supressed magic. Even so, he would point to the fact that ultimately it was mages who rose back to the top of the heap again, even in the magically supressed world. It would be irrelevant to him whether those mages were human or elves. The fact that elven mage leaders used magic to supremely rule their world would simply prove his point. So along comes Solas, who regrets his actions in the past and wants to restore the magic in the world to what it was before. Fenris would likely ask the same question the Inquisitor does. Won't that mean freeing the mage overlords as well? "I had plans". Don't think that would impress Fenris much. Even if Solas managed to keep those mages imprisoned or found a way to destroy them, in Fenris' mind that would simply open the way for a different set of mages to do the same. That is why I say that Fenris would only willingly join up if Solas missed out the whole part about releasing magic, which would be a bit hard considering he admits he wants to restore the world to what it was. Add in that fact that Solas' actions would result in chaos likely leading to the death of everyone else, not just corrupt Tevinter mages, and I'm pretty sure Fenris would regard it as simply another mage having been corrupted by their magic/love of magic. Nowhere in his agenda does Solas speak of freeing the oppressed people of Thedas from the overlords, magic or otherwise, for the simple reason he thinks they are all going to die.
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Post by UutIVvdPw7END0Ef on Jan 8, 2019 20:08:21 GMT
I wonder if there will be a major anti-Fen'Harel Elves faction. Elves vs Thedas doesn't really sound good considering that even with a "god" on their side they're still outnumbered. There could be Elves that either won't agree with Fen'Harel's methods or still remain loyal to the Evanuris, mayhaps offering alliance for dismantling alienages?, maybe something like we could do with Briala in Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts.
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Post by Julilla on Jan 8, 2019 22:30:46 GMT
This thread is fun for speculation, but I don't know, everyone. Solas isn't going to tell the truth to any of his followers, hell, he might not even be telling *us* the truth. We know he obfuscates and lies by omission and that he speaks extensively with Sera regarding the Jennies and what she should be doing. At the very least, he's going to have small groups of people working for him that are completely split off from each other and completely ignorant of the "main purpose" of what Solas is trying to accomplish.
In that scenario, I see Fenris joining up readily to smash Tevinter. Also Merrill, for restoring Elvhen knowledge. I'm hearing "If Fenris had the knowledge that I have about what Solas says he's doing, he would never join!" Because of course he wouldn't. Hardly anybody would. "Everyone I love is gonna die! Good deal!" Not good motivation.
But Trickster gonna trick. And y'all think you're ready for this but no. I think he's going to run circles around everyone.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Jan 8, 2019 22:43:26 GMT
This thread is fun for speculation, but I don't know, everyone. Solas isn't going to tell the truth to any of his followers, hell, he might not even be telling *us* the truth. We know he obfuscates and lies by omission and that he speaks extensively with Sera regarding the Jennies and what she should be doing. At the very least, he's going to have small groups of people working for him that are completely split off from each other and completely ignorant of the "main purpose" of what Solas is trying to accomplish. In that scenario, I see Fenris joining up readily to smash Tevinter. Also Merrill, for restoring Elvhen knowledge. I'm hearing "If Fenris had the knowledge that I have about what Solas says he's doing, he would never join!" Because of course he wouldn't. Hardly anybody would. "Everyone I love is gonna die! Good deal!" Not good motivation. Well, the tweet that kicked all this off did seem to have "If Fenris knew everything" as a premise. (And, honestly, how's he not gonna know it? Varric is in communication with him.) Thus the resounding "No, unless he doesn't know he's even working for Solas." stuff from a lot of us.
But Trickster gonna trick. And y'all think you're ready for this but no. I think he's going to run circles around everyone. I look forward to the mental sparring. Its my favorite kind.
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Post by summonabear on Jan 9, 2019 2:05:13 GMT
I wonder if Solas will even bother recruiting people to his cause. The only one of his agents we know anything about is Felassen, so maybe he just has a bunch of ancient elves on board already. I mean he often mentions that large organizations are bound to fail, so maybe that's enough. We haven't witnessed him try to get anyone to join him, and he actively tells a Lavellan inquisitor not to.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Jan 9, 2019 2:27:08 GMT
Well, he's got at least one agent in the recent DA comics series.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 9, 2019 2:29:21 GMT
Well, he's got at least one agent in the recent DA comics series. And that agent was recruited by another agent. Then of course the Trespasser stuff.
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Post by UutIVvdPw7END0Ef on Jan 9, 2019 11:11:34 GMT
I remember Leliana saying something about Sentinel elves being active in the Tirashan during Trespasser. To protect their temples or join Fen'Harel?
Which also reminds me of the worshippers of The Forgotten Ones being there too, would they join Fen'Harel or seek revenge for locking The Forgotten Ones?
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 9, 2019 16:06:48 GMT
Merrill would sign up to see the culture and pride of the elves restored. She and Solas share the same views on "forbidden" magics. Not really. They only both agree that blood magic in and of itself isn’t bad but how it is used. They disagree on pretty much everything else, for example Solas sees spirits as friends while Merrill sees them as as dangerous so you need to be cautious. Also he is literally the devil of her religion, and she on multiple occasions talks about how trusting the Dread Wolf is bad. A couple of things:
1. I seriously doubt many of Solas' followers in Dragon Age 4 will know it's him, or that what they're doing has anything to with Elves and/or the Fade. Many of his agents will probably be actively, albeit unknowingly working against each other, spreading confusion. Solas confessing his plans to the Inquisitor was likely another con, a smokescreen to his real aims. Or maybe a part of him wants to stop, but doesn't truly know how. There are times Solas strikes me as being addicted to intrigue, revolutions and chaos in general. If Solas was honestly Monologueing at the end of Trespasser, it would have been really bad writing.
2. Fen'Harel has much more in common with Prometheus, the Coyote Trickster and Loki than Satan. Unlike the black and white dualism of monotheistic religions, the pantheistic Dalish are fully aware of the Creators' flaws, as well as virtues. While the Dread Wolf was usually feared, he was always respected.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 9, 2019 16:11:27 GMT
Not really. They only both agree that blood magic in and of itself isn’t bad but how it is used. They disagree on pretty much everything else, for example Solas sees spirits as friends while Merrill sees them as as dangerous so you need to be cautious. Also he is literally the devil of her religion, and she on multiple occasions talks about how trusting the Dread Wolf is bad. A couple of things:
1. I seriously doubt many of Solas' followers in Dragon Age 4 will know it's him, or that what they're doing has anything to with Elves and/or the Fade. Many of his agents will probably be actively, albeit unknowingly working against each other, spreading confusion. Solas confessing his plans to the Inquisitor was likely another con, a smokescreen to his real aims. Or maybe a part of him wants to stop, but doesn't truly know how. There are times Solas strikes me as being addicted to intrigue, revolutions and chaos in general. If Solas was honestly Monologueing at the end of Trespasser, it would have been really bad writing.
2. Fen'Harel has much more in common with Prometheus, the Coyote Trickster and Loki than Satan. Unlike the black and white dualism of monotheistic religions, the pantheistic Dalish are fully aware of the Creators' flaws, as well as virtues. While the Dread Wolf was usually feared, he was always respected.
1. Okay. Why would Merrill be one of the ones in the dark though? If nothing else, Varric would alert her to what is going on and poof, she's not joining. 2. Merrill has nothing positive to say about Fen'Harel. As for being respected, people usually respect enemies that show skill. Doesn't mean they like them or will support them.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 9, 2019 16:38:34 GMT
A couple of things:
1. I seriously doubt many of Solas' followers in Dragon Age 4 will know it's him, or that what they're doing has anything to with Elves and/or the Fade. Many of his agents will probably be actively, albeit unknowingly working against each other, spreading confusion. Solas confessing his plans to the Inquisitor was likely another con, a smokescreen to his real aims. Or maybe a part of him wants to stop, but doesn't truly know how. There are times Solas strikes me as being addicted to intrigue, revolutions and chaos in general. If Solas was honestly Monologueing at the end of Trespasser, it would have been really bad writing.
2. Fen'Harel has much more in common with Prometheus, the Coyote Trickster and Loki than Satan. Unlike the black and white dualism of monotheistic religions, the pantheistic Dalish are fully aware of the Creators' flaws, as well as virtues. While the Dread Wolf was usually feared, he was always respected.
1. Okay. Why would Merrill be one of the ones in the dark though? You're still going on the assumption that Solas will act openly, or that any of his agents would reveal their true allegiances, or that many of them would even know who they're serving or who else is involved. That's kinda how secret cells operate . I don't actually expect Merrill to show up in DA4 one way or another. But theoretically, Merrill would be in the dark for the exact reason you said, that she has no love for the Dread Wolf. Varric has vague implications of what Solas is planning, not every single random elf who could potentially ask Merrill to help with elven refugees (possible agents), fighting slavers and Magisters (diversions to waste the heroes' time and resources) or help decode seemingly ancient Elvhenan lore (for use in any number of plans).
True, but my point had less to do with Fen'Harel himself, than pointing out that him and the Forbidden Ones notwithstanding, the Creators were not angelic, nor do most Dalish pretend otherwise. So it's not really fair to compare Solas to Satan when the Dalish pantheon do not follow dualism.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 9, 2019 16:48:44 GMT
1. Okay. Why would Merrill be one of the ones in the dark though? You're still going on the assumption that Solas will act openly, or that any of his agents would reveal their true allegiances, or that many of them would even know who they're serving or who else is involved. That's kinda how secret cells operate . I don't actually expect Merrill to show up in DA4 one way or another. But theoretically, Merrill would be in the dark for the exact reason you said, that she has no love for the Dread Wolf. Varric has vague implications of what Solas is planning, not every single random elf who could potentially ask Merrill to help with elven refugees (possible agents), fighting slavers and Magisters (diversions to waste the heroes' time and resources) or help decode seemingly ancient Elvhenan lore (for use in any number of plans).
True, but my point had less to do with Fen'Harel himself, than pointing out that him and the Forbidden Ones notwithstanding, the Creators were not angelic, nor do most Dalish pretend otherwise.
No I'm not. I've said multiple times I think he will be operating from the shadows, using the Qun-Tevinter War as a distraction to hide his actions. And yeah, since she can be killed in DA2 I doubt she will show up in the next game. Maybe a small cameo role or something, but nothing big enough where she can't be replaced by another character to fill the role. Or, Merrill once learning from Varric could help the shadow Inquisition instead. Not as a companion or anything, but since we are talking about agents helping an organization. I could see a lot of characters from the past doing that. It's already been done really, since Varric in Knight Errant while not being part of the Inquisition anymore still is kept in the loop and helps them out. I know, I was just saying that while the Dalish see their deities as more morally grey, she does not say anything good about him and even has a conversation about why you shouldn't work with him.
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Post by Julilla on Jan 9, 2019 22:14:03 GMT
I know, I was just saying that while the Dalish see their deities as more morally grey, she does not say anything good about him and even has a conversation about why you shouldn't work with him. I think the point is that she *would not* know who she was working with at all. Walter Black, I too wonder how much of this he can control. I've looked for any hint of a kind of "fate" in the DA Universe, and don't really find it. So it's unclear to me whether the Elvhen Deities are capable of personality/purpose change. If you think of Loki, say, Loki can't help but be Loki. He might be a fun drinking buddy or someone to hang out with, but eventually it's all going to go chaos because He just can't help it. However, I don't know if we can really say that the Evanuris are like that, I wish we could because it could certainly answer our speculations here. Maybe someone with a Twitter account could ask Weekes whether or not "Fate" is a concept in DA?
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Jan 10, 2019 0:11:45 GMT
Even if fate by that definition was a concept, the Evanuris are not the Aesir. They're not actually gods. They're very strong normal people who ruled long enough to be remembered as gods. Its like Egyptian pharaohs or Chinese and Roman god-emporers. The Evanuris don't have some kind of special place in the cosmos, at least not any more special than the rest of the ancient elves.
Solas is the "Trickster God" in reputation, but in reality he's a bald fade nerd who sometimes accidentally sets his coattails on fire. The rest is just effective application of strategy, drama, and magical talent.
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Post by ellehaym on Jan 10, 2019 1:35:48 GMT
Well, he's got at least one agent in the recent DA comics series. And that agent was recruited by another agent. Then of course the Trespasser stuff. I am curious about the chain of command of Solas' organization. It does seem like he has agents that have agents and so on. I can see lesser agents not knowing about Solas and at most they might now their boss has a boss. Just imagine if Felassan had not betrayed Solas. He'd have Briala and her elves working towards Solas goals and they won't even know that they're being used. On a side note, I can't really imagine the Dalish following Solas knowing who he is. They chased him off when he was disguised. He's a known liar in their legends, so if some clans do work with Solas, it might be to betray him at the right time and maybe even free the Evanuris.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Jan 10, 2019 2:08:27 GMT
And that agent was recruited by another agent. Then of course the Trespasser stuff. I am curious about the chain of command of Solas' organization. It does seem like he has agents that have agents and so on. I can see lesser agents not knowing about Solas and at most they might now their boss has a boss. Just imagine if Felassan had not betrayed Solas. He'd have Briala and her elves working towards Solas goals and they won't even know that their being used. On a side note, I can't really imagine the Dalish following Solas knowing who he is. They chased him off when he was disguised. He's a known liar in their legends, so if some clans do work with Solas, it might be to betray him at the right time and maybe even free the Evanuris. All of this is very interesting plot possibilities that I really really hope happen in-game in DA4. The most obvious possibility would be Solas orchestrating a slave rebellion by proxy for hsi own chaos/distraction purposes. So now I'm gonna be suspicious of that if we get it. lol Also, I think it'd be neat if he branches out to non-elven agents using this method. We must be suspicious of *everyone*! O.O And this all begs the question of how he'll be able to entirely control all his cells if his even direct tier of agents is acting with a lot of autonomy? I suppose the answer is: he can't. I'm very much expecting us to run across at least some cell that has done something Solas, if he'd known, wouldn't like. Like something ridiculously bad, like blood sacrificing an orphanage or something. And then we might end up seeing him enact those methods of removing cells that have grown too radical that he was counseling Sera on.
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Post by UutIVvdPw7END0Ef on Jan 10, 2019 10:41:19 GMT
I think it was presumed he simply tells the Elves the truth about Vallaslin and the Evanuris and they joined him. But i guess it's possible he's using the Mythal persona and hiding the truth.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 10, 2019 20:11:02 GMT
True, but my point had less to do with Fen'Harel himself, than pointing out that him and the Forbidden Ones notwithstanding, the Creators were not angelic, nor do most Dalish pretend otherwise. So it's not really fair to compare Solas to Satan when the Dalish pantheon do not follow dualism Not to sure about some of these statements. True the Dalish sometimes ascribe rather severe behaviour to their gods but usually it is only because the victim deserved it. Elgar'nan was rather hot tempered and vengeful until soothed by Mythal and that story has the sun, earth and the two elven gods working together to restore what the Sun originally destroyed, so ultimately it has a very positive spin on it. In fact on the whole they do attribute positive traits to the Creators. Elgar'nan is invoked when Dalish are seeking revenege but is also seen as the god of fatherhood; Mythal is motherhood and protection; Falon'Din is the friend of the Dead, a benign guide in the Fade and god of good fortune; Dirthamen his devoted brother, who gave the elves knowledge and also taught them the value of loyalty and faith in the family; Andruil watched over the animals and taught the elves to respect them and the natural world; Sylaise taught the elves practical skills like how to use fire, healing herbs and magic, spinning and weaving; June taught them crafting of bows and other tools. Finally Ghilan'nain was raised to godhood from among Andruil's followers for her devotion to the animals. It is easy to see how survivors of the pro-Evanuris priesthood maintained a positive memory about their gods, whereas those in the Temple of Mythal have the truer version and of course Solas adds his own additions to some of them, particularly Falon'Din. However, from the Dalish perspective the Creators are the "good" gods. Even the fact they call them collectively the Creators rather than the Evanuris (Leaders) points to this. It is dualistic in outlook, because balancing out the largely benign Creators are the malign Forgotten Ones, the gods of terror, malevolence, spite, disease and decay. There is nothing grey in their view of these gods. They are evil and the elves which follows them have "torn out their hearts and forsaken all that it means to be Dalish in return for the keys to a twisted and terrible strength". There were meant to have been cults to them in the Dales and presumably their descendants are to be found in the Tirashan (unless these are ancient elves whose allegiance was to them). In between the two sits Fen'Harel the god of both camps and of neither. So it is true that he is not exactly Satan as they do not regard him as wholly evil like the Forgotten Ones but simply not to be trusted as he is a trickster. However, he is also said to be the bringer of nightmares, presumably because they believe he does haunt the Fade with his presence (have the Keepers occasionally met him there?) Their view of Fen'Harel as more a neutral god who does not believe in black and white perceptions of good or evil but only his own schemes and will use anyone to advance them actually does fit very well with what we now know of him. So the problem with any Dalish actually following the Dread Wolf is that their lore makes constant reference to the fact he cannot be trusted. Even if he says he is going to restore their gods to them, why should they believe him? If he says he is going to bring back the World of the Elves, would they not think there is going to be a catch to it? The downside being that only "true elves" will profit from his plans and the Dalish don't qualify.
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Post by phoray on Jan 10, 2019 20:25:48 GMT
I swear, if Solas tricks Fenris into working for something he doesn't actually believe in, I will switch all of my "redeem" world states to "murder that bastard" in an instant.
I dunno, it's one thing when Solas is tricking ME but when he starts tricking loved ones, I'm pissed at the very idea and just feel the urge to murder rising.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 10, 2019 20:46:21 GMT
I swear, if Solas tricks Fenris into working for something he doesn't actually believe in, I will switch all of my "redeem" world states to "murder that bastard" in an instant. I dunno, it's one thing when Solas is tricking ME but when he starts tricking loved ones, I'm pissed at the very idea and just feel the urge to murder rising.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Dec 22, 2017 21:33:14 GMT
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by copper on Jan 10, 2019 21:05:53 GMT
I'd be surprised if Fenris was even tricked into being recruited, because that would mean he'd be interested in joining up with any cause. He hates slavers sure, but my impression is that he just kills any that happen to show up rather than seeking them out or trying to end slavery himself. Perhaps surprisingly, Fenris is one companion I can see settling down somewhere and just living a quiet life.
Merrill has shown that she is interested in taking up a cause, but by Inquisition her cause is Kirkwall's city elves. While that could change, I'd imagine that her arc (friendship or rivalry) and Varric's warnings about Solas would make her more cautious in the future. Despite what people seem to think, she's not stupid.
The only elf companion I see willingly joining Solas is Velanna, and even that would be dependent on what her experience has been since following her sister and potentially the Architect.
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Julilla
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Julilla on Jan 10, 2019 22:33:38 GMT
Even if fate by that definition was a concept, the Evanuris are not the Aesir. They're not actually gods. They're very strong normal people who ruled long enough to be remembered as gods. Its like Egyptian pharaohs or Chinese and Roman god-emporers. The Evanuris don't have some kind of special place in the cosmos, at least not any more special than the rest of the ancient elves. Solas is the "Trickster God" in reputation, but in reality he's a bald fade nerd who sometimes accidentally sets his coattails on fire. The rest is just effective application of strategy, drama, and magical talent. They are, for all intents and purposes, Gods. He says they aren't Gods as a peer would, like one genius being asked how smart another genius is. We, at least, are not their spiritual/magical peers. Them having any special place in the Cosmos has nothing to do with whether or not they are Gods. They don't need to have a special place anywhere, They just are what They are. In any case, whether you agree with my (admittedly Pagan) view of Godhood, the fact remains that the stories in DA are filtered through and formed around some basic world cultures storytelling. It's not unreasonable to ask about Fate in such a world, and it looks like someone just started a prophecy thread, which interestingly enough, would involve an interpretation of Fate.
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