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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2018 0:17:45 GMT
I keep thinking Sandal is like Avallac'h in TW3. His true Elven form is trapped in a Dwarven body, or he has one of the Old/Eleven God's souls in him. Sandal isn't an old god. They're nothing compared to him. He can appear as he likes. He's the Maker. We all know that.
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 24, 2018 0:23:34 GMT
Sandal isn't an old god. They're nothing compared to him. He can appear as he likes. He's the Maker. We all know that. Exactly. No need to take on the appearance of those pathetic Evanuris.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 24, 2018 0:33:18 GMT
s that change under her guidance is more gradual compared to sudden, radical change proposed by Leliana. Her changes aren't gradual, they are non existent and ambiguous. I gave video and a transcript of what she literally said. Yes, and through that transcript, we can see that her changes are far from non-existent or really that ambiguous - it's only your interpretations that try to make them so. The major issue I see is that it seems that Cassandra simply isn't fast or radical enough for your taste (and I say so as someone who usually makes Leliana Divine), or she isn't the one who believes that institutions within the Chantry have to be completely torn apart or forced to change in a heartbeat in order to be thoroughly reformed. The reality is that she ultimately still wants to change the Chantry in the very same direction Justinia and Leliana want them to - which is why she accepted Justinia's offer to become her Right Hand, or why they work together well with Leli, even if Leli is the Divine. If you read her opinion about supporting Leliana as Divine it's clear as day that the difference between her and Leliana is not that she wants to keep things how they are - far from it - but that she thinks that being too hasty with change will result in chaos or can backfire spectacularly if things are too fast for people to accept them (a factoid supported by her own epilogue slides as Divine in the main game, specifically mentioning that some think that she's going too far with reforms, duh). To put it simply, she's the pragmatist in this duo of Hands - someone who, if we choose her as the Divine, offers a path of steady reform in any world-state she is Divine (in contrast to status-quo-protecting Vivienne), instead of more risky Leliana whose state of her personal quest determines her rule as the Divine.
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Post by Sifr on Dec 24, 2018 0:40:39 GMT
And I should be sympathetic to Chantry folk for what reason? They're entrenched in their benefits, of course they don't want to be shook up. It doesn't help that the epi slides imply ineffectiveness and that she vocally dislikes the job. To be clear, I think Leliana is a psychopath. I hate her (where I only feel dislike for Cass) but at least she does something. I wasn't suggesting that you should be sympathetic to the Chantry, the very start of Inquisition proves how some clerics will refuse to act and instead sit around twiddling their thumbs up their butt, even when the sky is literally falling down around them. They need to change and someone to put a boot up their backsides, which is why I think Leliana is a better pick than Cassandra for Divine. Not is Leliana more willing to push for reformation, she's better at playing the Game and she seems to enjoy the task far more than Cassandra does (who only seems to accept out of a sense of duty).
I don't think that Leliana is a psychopath, but as I've said before elsewhere, I think she fits more criteria for having some degree of dependent personality disorder.
Over the course of the games we've repeatedly seen her mold her personality, goals and morals to suit whatever authority figure she has currently attached herself to (Lady Cecile, Marjolaine, Justinia, the Warden and Inquisitor).
Her need to seek validation and approval from others may be why she tends to throw herself so completely into whatever role is currently required of her, whether it be Bard, Sister, Companion, Agent or Spymaster? The death of her mother when she was very young, may be subconsciously leading her to try to fill that gap in her life with other people, as well as explain why she's so drawn to strong women to serve as role models for her, such as Marjolaine and Justinia?
(To be clear, I'm not saying that Leliana potentially having DPD is in any way a bad thing, only that this would explain much about why her characterisation and career path seem to vary so much?)
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Post by phoray on Dec 24, 2018 0:47:39 GMT
DUH. I've yet to be convinced that Cassandra shows any signs of studying Tranquility in the 4 years she has the knowledge or that this will suddenly change later. I said it was possible that DA4 could go back and say that she did. My opinion would then be slightly adjusted. But that is an assumption of what DA4 will retroactively change/add about Cassandra and her actions over the 4+ years since she's had the information and the start of DA4. I will not make that assumption. I will have my opinion based on the information I have now. And that's that she did nothing with the info and other than a few dialogue lines in her personal quest about how it made her ashamed of the order, hasn't cared to mention it since. Therefore, I don't see her, or anyone on the Good People Side, choosing to Un Tranquilize Avexis in DA4. So I still believe that if anyone would, it would be the Bad Guy Side. That's a narrative that's interesting to me, an elf that has special powers that would support Solas with knowledge of the outcome. She could also not show up at all and be a weird movie-sourced cameo of a cool little elven girl who was effectively punished for being unique in the current Veiled world of Thedas. Done. I don't care to spend my energy anymore on it. We got till Fall 2020 before we even get the game, I probably won't even remember I made the suggestion by then.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 24, 2018 1:01:01 GMT
I don't think that Leliana is a psychopath, but as I've said before elsewhere, I think she fits more criteria for having some degree of dependent personality disorder. Over the course of the games we've repeatedly seen her mold her personality, goals and morals to suit whatever authority figure she has currently attached herself to (Lady Cecile, Marjolaine, Justinia, the Warden and Inquisitor). Her need to seek validation and approval from others may be why she tends to throw herself so completely into whatever role is currently required her, whether it be Bard, Sister, Companion, Agent or Spymaster? (To be clear, I'm not saying that Leliana potentially having DPD is in any way a bad thing, only that this would explain much about why her characterisation and career path seem to vary so much?) I think you may be on to something - not sure if it's a degree of DPD specifically, but Leliana has always been fairly open about having issues with own identity, or how to reconcile different facets of her personality that pull her in different directions (or how to deal with blows to her faith). The path to gaining a firm stance on who she is seems to open only when we help her gain a sense of balance and her figuring that she may be many things so long as she isn't compromising her principles.
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Post by Sifr on Dec 24, 2018 1:37:41 GMT
I think you may be on to something - not sure if it's a degree of DPD specifically, but Leliana has always been fairly open about having issues with own identity, or how to reconcile different facets of her personality that pull her in different directions (or how to deal with blows to her faith). The path to gaining a firm stance on who she is seems to open only when we help her gain a sense of balance and her figuring that she may be many things so long as she isn't compromising her principles. Yeah, I may have been reading more into things than the writers intended and that her evolving characterisation in each installment could have been more about showing the complexity and layers to her character, rather than hinting at anything clinical we could armchair shrink her as having? Still, it's something to be said that Leliana's character is written as being three dimensional enough that there can be multiple interpretations of her across the fandom.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 24, 2018 2:04:26 GMT
Hmm...Leliana has a mental disorder. Merrill would support genocide. Just waiting for Josephine’s turn to complete trifecta for this current besmirching round.
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Post by Sifr on Dec 24, 2018 2:27:00 GMT
Hmm...Leliana has a mental disorder. Merrill would support genocide. Just waiting for Josephine’s turn to complete trifecta for this current besmirching round. Well, I did clarify that there'd be nothing wrong with Leliana having some type of personality disorder, only that it might potentially explain some things about the way her characterisation and some of her relationships has been depicted across the series?
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 24, 2018 2:27:46 GMT
Hmm...Leliana has a mental disorder. Merrill would support genocide. Just waiting for Josephine’s turn to complete trifecta for this current besmirching round. Do we really sound like we want to besmirch them? I have no problem with characters sorting themselves out and us helping them a bit in their journey if we can. Living in Thedas certainly ain't easy on the psychical front, what with demons, Blight, never-ending conflicts, tragedies and so on. Even if ultimately there aren't any intended underlying mental ailments, the way they live - from one threat to another - would pack more punch into most character's existential woes or issues.
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Post by UutIVvdPw7END0Ef on Dec 28, 2018 21:03:15 GMT
I just remembered about another group - Elf Werewolves.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Dec 28, 2018 23:24:18 GMT
I just remembered about another group - Elf Werewolves. Ok, yeah, I could see them being on his side. lol
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Post by sandalisthemaker on Dec 29, 2018 4:47:06 GMT
I've only skimmed through this thread, just enough to see that there was talk of Fenris possibly joining Solas/ agreeing with his plan...
I saw David Gaider's tweet, and I definitely think that it was dripping with *sarcasm* (this is Gaider we are talking about after all). He even placed a winking emoji at the end of it.
Fenris would be completely against Solas' plan. Why on earth would he want to Veil to be destroyed. He hates magic, hates demons, and feels no kinship whatsoever with other elves. There is no way he would willingly go along with it.
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Post by asiaredgrave on Jan 4, 2019 15:57:01 GMT
I can see Merrill supporting Solas if she wasn't fully aware of what he was planning. Merrill was all about rediscovering and restoring ancient elven artefacts and trying to restore their old culture. If she believes that is what Solas is trying to do, restore the elven people of old, I think she'd be all for it. Right up until she found out about the mass casualties bit. Fenris, on the other hand, is very anti-magic and would be very distrustful of Solas.
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Post by ellehaym on Jan 4, 2019 20:19:25 GMT
I can see some companions inadvertently helping Solas assuming he uses different cells for different purposes. Example: 1 cell will be about helping and freeing (elven) slaves which is something that Fenris will do. Another will be about procuring ancient elven artifacts and knowledge which is something that Merrill might be interested. An agent can potentially hire Zevran to kill troublesome people. While on the surface, these cells might seem to be working for different goals, in their all being used to further Solas plans.
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Post by monkeylungs on Jan 4, 2019 22:23:20 GMT
I hope they all join him!
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Post by naughtynomad on Jan 6, 2019 12:12:16 GMT
Merrill, Valanna, and Fenris would all join Solas in a heartbeat. They might have some reservations about his methods, but they would agree with his end goal. A free elven empire ruling the world.
Even Zevran might be on board... but for him it would depend on how close he was to a non-elf Warden.
Tallis and Sera are the only elves would wouldn't join.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Jan 6, 2019 12:24:38 GMT
Merrill, Valanna, and Fenris would all join Solas in a heartbeat. They might have some reservations about his methods, but they would agree with his end goal. A free elven empire ruling the world. Even Zevran might be on board... but for him it would depend on how close he was to a non-elf Warden. Tallis and Sera are the only elves would wouldn't join. Since when does Fenris care about elven empires?
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Post by naughtynomad on Jan 6, 2019 12:31:21 GMT
Merrill, Valanna, and Fenris would all join Solas in a heartbeat. They might have some reservations about his methods, but they would agree with his end goal. A free elven empire ruling the world. Even Zevran might be on board... but for him it would depend on how close he was to a non-elf Warden. Tallis and Sera are the only elves would wouldn't join. Since when does Fenris care about elven empires? He cares about elves being free, by force if necessary. Solas is the answer to this.
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Jan 6, 2019 12:37:24 GMT
He cares about elves being free, by force if necessary. Solas is the answer to this. I cannot see Fenris being in favour of 'the Veil is torn down and everyone is a mage again!' given his feelings about magic and mages. (I mean, leaving aside the fact that Solas's plan apparently involves killing modern elves and Fenris likes being alive.)
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 6, 2019 12:58:07 GMT
Merrill, Valanna, and Fenris would all join Solas in a heartbeat. They might have some reservations about his methods, but they would agree with his end goal. A free elven empire ruling the world. If Fenris was in favour of this then he would be a total hypocrite. He is against magic, full stop. So why would he aid Solas in restoring a world with a free flow of magic? If he heard that the Veil was created in the first place to trap all powerful tyrant mages and that dropping it would free them, why would he want to do that? Merrill wanted to restore the eluvian to help the elven people but he was thoroughly against her and that wasn't simply because she used blood magic to achieve her aims. Anders didn't want to use blood magic but Fenris was against him because he wanted to give mages more freedom. If Fenris knew the Viddasala had been trying to strengthen the Veil, I think he'd more likely have supported her. There are other ways of achieving freedom for the elven slaves that wouldn't involve flooding the world with magic. So unless Solas or his agent were very careful in concealing the real intent from Fenris I don't think he would knowingly support the schemes of Fen'Harel, an ancient elf mage god. Remember just saying we would restore the world of the elves might flag up danger signals to him since the Dalish constantly teach that once upon a time all elves had magic.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Jan 6, 2019 19:04:53 GMT
Also Fenris isn't in to freeing elven slaves, he's into freeing slaves. We've never been given reason to believe Fenris feels some identitarian connection to his species overall.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 6, 2019 19:06:00 GMT
Merrill, Valanna, and Fenris would all join Solas in a heartbeat. They might have some reservations about his methods, but they would agree with his end goal. A free elven empire ruling the world. Even Zevran might be on board... but for him it would depend on how close he was to a non-elf Warden. Tallis and Sera are the only elves would wouldn't join. Since when does Fenris care about elven empires? Same with Merrill.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Jan 6, 2019 19:08:57 GMT
Since when does Fenris care about elven empires? Same with Merrill. Well, she wants to restore the elvhen empire's historical knowledge, advances, etc to the current elves. But yeah, I don't think she wants to restore the empire and rise as a power or anything. Though accomplishing her goal of information recovery likely would lead to others trying to do it. But yeah, Merrill's no "kill all humans" elf, either.
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Post by Anaan on Jan 7, 2019 15:03:19 GMT
It would be interesting if some of the elven companions joined Solas...for the purposes of funneling back information to the Inquisition as a double agent. I could get behind that, at least.
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