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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 13, 2019 8:04:24 GMT
Does Sovereign laugh at the Reapers? Maybe Saren thinks so but he has no more insight than anyone else. If he thinks organics could survive by being useful, wouldn't the same hold true of geth?
I still don't see them as sympathetic here. Without knowing of the schism there's no way to see the geth as anything but evil. At least, that's how I see it. ME2 paints a different picture.
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Post by burningcherry on Jan 13, 2019 13:55:14 GMT
Frackin' toasters. I don't know about bias, but I think it is realistic that the Geth would beat the Quarians. And I liked that when I was playing in the "mirror universe," Geth VI told me directly to pick the Geth as they are stronger and give me the best chance to retake Earth. What you perceive as "realistic" depends on if you account the Reapers and how much advantage you believe Daro'Xen's toys gave to the quarians – but that's obviously a subjective judgement. If we are to define "bias" objectively then we should look at who has the better chance of surviving assuming that player choices are independent and uniformly distributed – and it's the geth.
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Post by griffith82 on Jan 13, 2019 15:18:26 GMT
It paints them as evil robots at first in ME1 but there is more to them and it was the Quarians fault. I like the Quarians but they struck first. No it doesn't and I've explained why your simplistic view of the geth/quarians is wrong. You aren't looking at the situation they were in with any depth. When you start talking to Tali she explains why the Quarians hate the Geth and what they did. In ME 2 you learn the Geth's side. You find out they were simply defending themselves. You have a choice to broker a peace or not. It's up to you. Btw it's my opinion and its supported by the games so it's not wrong.
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Post by griffith82 on Jan 13, 2019 15:20:35 GMT
Why would I sympathize with the geth in ME1? All we know is that they were AI who turned on their creators and drove them from Rannoch. You see, that's not quite true. I explained this in my OP, but I'll summarize it again here. In ME1 you can only talk to Tali about the geth and she tells you the history of the quarians and geth Shepard's only response is to either end the conversation, or criticize her and her people for trying to wipe thew geth out. This is what I mean when I say that even ME1 is biased towards the geth. Yes, they are primary antagonists and worshiping the Reapers, but even in this case they are painted as poor victims who are being manipulated by Sovereign, who laughs at their worship and plan to use them only as tools. So again, ME1 is sympathetic to the geth. At no point in the series does Shepard ever call the geth out for murdering billions or refusing to have diplomatic relations with organics in the three centuries hence. That's true but I don't see the problem as it's what the writers wanted. Imo it's a good story.
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Post by griffith82 on Jan 13, 2019 15:23:15 GMT
The games give you two perspectives once ME2 came out. You have a choice. Personally as a paragon I unite both as renegade I destroy them. In fact you could start sympathizing with them in ME1. I understand their plight and sympathize with both the Geth and Quarians. Why would I sympathize with the geth in ME1? All we know is that they were AI who turned on their creators and drove them from Rannoch. Next thing we know is that they participated i the attack on Eden Prime. We also see them creating fake distress signals to lure in people to kill. We know they were planning a major incursion into "organic" space. We know they worked for Sovereign, who was attempting to bring in the Reapers to destroy all life in the galaxy. We also know they worship something (Feros) that might be related to Reapers. (We have no concrete evidence in ME1.) The only evidence that there might be more to them is when we stop their incursion and we're told that there was a video(?) of quarians singing. Or something like that. The overwhelming evidence in ME1 is that they want nothing less than the complete annihilation of organics.
ME2 obviously changes things, giving us more knowledge and context over why the geth and quarians were at war. We also learned that there was a schism among the geth. ME3 further adds to it, particularly on Rannoch when Legion is preparing to upgrade the geth: "Does this unit have a soul?" I don't see how there could be even the beginnings of sympathy in ME2 but more fully in ME3.
<iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.960000000000036px; height: 3.1000000000000085px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_2914350" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1000000000000085"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.1px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_27941652" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1000000000000085"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.1px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 95px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_71286343" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1000000000000085"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.1px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: 95px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_26289433" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1000000000000085"></iframe> In ME1 it tells you a little about the Geth in and it could make you wonder. Talking to Legion in ME2 gives you more insight and finally in ME3 you learn enough to make the decision.
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Post by capn233 on Jan 13, 2019 15:36:30 GMT
Frackin' toasters. I don't know about bias, but I think it is realistic that the Geth would beat the Quarians. And I liked that when I was playing in the "mirror universe," Geth VI told me directly to pick the Geth as they are stronger and give me the best chance to retake Earth. What you perceive as "realistic" depends on if you account the Reapers and how much advantage you believe Daro'Xen's toys gave to the quarians – but that's obviously a subjective judgement. If we are to define "bias" objectively then we should look at who has the better chance of surviving assuming that player choices are independent and uniformly distributed – and it's the geth. The effect of Xen's toys had already worn off, which is why the Quarians were getting their ass kicked before Shepard's intervention. Which seems to be a common theme with them. Of course the Reaper enhancements were a large advantage for the Geth, that is what your choice actually comes down to at all. Of course it undermines the whole characterization of the true geth as given in ME2, but a lot of the writing in ME3 undermines what had previously been established. I don't agree with that characterization of objectivity as it relates to writer bias because in reality Shepard's previous choices have no bearing on whether or not you can support the geth or Quarians, simply whether or not you have the influence to broker peace. If you do not agree that the geth are on equal footing with organics, or if you think they are in the wrong, you can side with the Quarians. If you are just suspicious of the Reaper code, you can stop the geth. On the other hand, if you think geth deserve consideration as life forms, and or the Quarians have acted foolishly many times, or you support the use of Reaper code because reasons, then you can of course choose the geth. I don't see writer bias here at all. Of course there is in universe bias against the Quarians, but that is not the same thing. That is essentially their role in the minor morality plays we get throughout the trilogy.
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Post by NotN7 on Jan 13, 2019 15:56:27 GMT
Why would I sympathize with the geth in ME1? All we know is that they were AI who turned on their creators and drove them from Rannoch. Next thing we know is that they participated i the attack on Eden Prime. We also see them creating fake distress signals to lure in people to kill. We know they were planning a major incursion into "organic" space. We know they worked for Sovereign, who was attempting to bring in the Reapers to destroy all life in the galaxy. We also know they worship something (Feros) that might be related to Reapers. (We have no concrete evidence in ME1.) The only evidence that there might be more to them is when we stop their incursion and we're told that there was a video(?) of quarians singing. Or something like that. The overwhelming evidence in ME1 is that they want nothing less than the complete annihilation of organics.
ME2 obviously changes things, giving us more knowledge and context over why the geth and quarians were at war. We also learned that there was a schism among the geth. ME3 further adds to it, particularly on Rannoch when Legion is preparing to upgrade the geth: "Does this unit have a soul?" I don't see how there could be even the beginnings of sympathy in ME2 but more fully in ME3.
<iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.960000000000036px; height: 3.1000000000000085px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_2914350" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1000000000000085"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.1px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_27941652" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1000000000000085"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.1px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 95px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_71286343" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1000000000000085"></iframe> <ifrI concuame style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.1px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: 95px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_26289433" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1000000000000085"></iframe> In ME1 it tells you a little about the Geth in and it could make you wonder. Talking to Legion in ME2 gives you more insight and finally in ME3 you learn enough to make the decision. I concur in ME1 all we really knew about the geth is what we learned in school if I remember correctly and that they didn't venture past the veil, so there is the setup what are they up to? then in ME2 when we talk to Legion we learn about the heretics etc then in ME3 we learned about the morning war and how it began in ME1 (I'll have to check) all Tali said was the geth drove them from their home world not who fired the first shot. Myself game play wise I didn't sympathize with the geth till ME3 in ME2 I trusted Legion but didn't sympathize with him.
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Post by burningcherry on Jan 13, 2019 19:33:33 GMT
What you perceive as "realistic" depends on if you account the Reapers and how much advantage you believe Daro'Xen's toys gave to the quarians – but that's obviously a subjective judgement. If we are to define "bias" objectively then we should look at who has the better chance of surviving assuming that player choices are independent and uniformly distributed – and it's the geth. The effect of Xen's toys had already worn off, which is why the Quarians were getting their ass kicked before Shepard's intervention.
You mean, even before the Reapers helped them? If so, what's the source? And, if you're a clueless player on their first playthrough and try to broker peace not knowing what it demands, you can get the quarians killed in some cases – but never the geth This is exactly where they're favored, mechanics-wise. Story-wise, two power shifts lead to this state so it could equally good have been directed any other way.
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Post by sassafrassa on Jan 13, 2019 19:42:09 GMT
That's true but I don't see the problem as it's what the writers wanted. Explain your reasoning in greater detail. Why does writer intent make something good? Here's my story. Man want eat dinner. Sailboat find dog poop. Earthworms flap they arms and run to the moon. The end. Wow, great story. My intent was utter gibberish, after all. I don't see writer bias here at all. Then you aren't looking very hard. I out-lined where the bias is very clearly.
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Post by griffith82 on Jan 13, 2019 20:30:17 GMT
That's true but I don't see the problem as it's what the writers wanted. Explain your reasoning in greater detail. Why does writer intent make something good? Here's my story. Man want eat dinner. Sailboat find dog poop. Earthworms flap they arms and run to the moon. The end. Wow, great story. My intent was utter gibberish, after all. I don't see writer bias here at all. Then you aren't looking very hard. I out-lined where the bias is very clearly.
If the writing was like that I'd agree. Fortunately it isnt. The point is it's their story to tell not ours. I thought it was fine you didn't. Let's agree to disagree.
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Post by sassafrassa on Jan 13, 2019 21:43:22 GMT
If the writing was like that I'd agree. Fortunately it isnt. The point is it's their story to tell not ours. I thought it was fine you didn't. Let's agree to disagree. I only do that when people have logical but subjective opinions. Yours is not logical. Everything I talk about with the geth is written by the writers. It's there in the lore. So the writers are then failing to properly utilize their own writing. That's bad writing. This is not subjective.
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Post by griffith82 on Jan 13, 2019 23:23:36 GMT
If the writing was like that I'd agree. Fortunately it isnt. The point is it's their story to tell not ours. I thought it was fine you didn't. Let's agree to disagree. I only do that when people have logical but subjective opinions. Yours is not logical. Everything I talk about with the geth is written by the writers. It's there in the lore. So the writers are then failing to properly utilize their own writing. That's bad writing. This is not subjective. I've seen bad writing in games and movies. Almost any Nintendo story game or FF has terrible story but that could be bad translations. Metal Gear Solid 2 had a laughable story. ME does not. The Geth had a clear backstory and evolution in the games and imo it was good. That is subjective. The only objectively bad writing I've seen is the Conrad Verner stuff.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 14, 2019 2:18:45 GMT
I only do that when people have logical but subjective opinions. Yours is not logical. Everything I talk about with the geth is written by the writers. It's there in the lore. So the writers are then failing to properly utilize their own writing. That's bad writing. This is not subjective. I've seen bad writing in games and movies. Almost any Nintendo story game or FF has terrible story but that could be bad translations. Metal Gear Solid 2 had a laughable story. ME does not. The Geth had a clear backstory and evolution in the games and imo it was good. That is subjective. The only objectively bad writing I've seen is the Conrad Verner stuff. Conrad is meant to be campy. It's debatable as to whether or not he actually has a wife. He's a true fanboy. He also makes fun of the game mechanics themselves when he says he pokes through crates for extra credits. Finally, pulling a war asset out of his ass was borderline unbelievable.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2019 9:51:26 GMT
[The] Reality is that the quarians could have settled somewhere else. They chose not to. From a new homeworld they could build themselves up again .... Instead, they became "space gypsies".
Thank you for making this comment about the quarians choosing to NOT find a new homeworld when they could have. You prompted me to read the masseffect.wikia page for the [geth-quarian] Morning War ( HERE) for more information. The subheading "Aftermath" mentions several points about the geth that are new news to me (I'm not completely knowledgeable of ALL ME lore):
"The geth made no attempt to pursue their former masters, though they could have easily finished them off as they retreated, out of uncertainty of the ramifications of annihilating an entire species - least of all their own creators. They [the geth] chose isolation rather than face this uncertainty instead, and remained behind the Perseus Veil, away from the prying eyes of organics..."
My feelings of sympathy (or not) about the 'current' generation of geth in MET, and the quarians too, are based on the over-riding general question I have to ask myself for similar past grievances for any race or group, namely, do I hold the entire current generation's individuals accountable for the horrific actions of their ancestors?
- Do I blame all current geth for the actions of the Heretics? No.
- Do I blame all current quarians born after the Morning War? No.
- Do I blame all current turians for the war atrocities committed in the First Contact War? No.
- Did Romeo blame Juliet for the misdeeds of the House of Capulet? No,
- Am I going to blame all current Hutu? Tutsi? Japanese? Germans? Italians? N. Vietnamese? Americans? and other groups for prior war atrocities? No. But I do blame individuals, evil intentions, and the political, social, and religious institutions and systems that support and provide cover for the evil behavior in their midst.
My sympathies are for those individuals who pursue peace using peaceful methods. Legion qualifies on this score, as do Tali and Veetor, and many others in ME. Does sympathy for one or more good individuals mean I must necessarily sympathize for an entire race? No. Does my sympathy for an entire race mean that I must feel sympathy for a bad individual? No.
In ME-2, we learn from Legion that the non-heretic geth understand the threat the reapers posed to them, and that the reaper virus code which Nazara (Sovereign) gave the heretics "could force the true geth to accept the heretics' conclusion" - that the reapers were their benevolent allies. Instead, they sent Legion to analyze and gain an understanding of Reaper technology on the derelict reaper (during the IFF Mission, ME-2) for the purpose to combat the reaper's reprogramming virus (This is my current understanding). This improved my Shepard's view (and my own) of the current majority of geth, that they were not a threat to organics, and Legion's purpose could be rationally supported by Shepard. I can rationally have Shepard fight against the quarian military assault on the geth even though I'm allied to and care about most quarian individuals. War is really hard on relationships, isn't it?
This thread's question is a good example of the issues that Sci-Fi stories explore, and that I love to reflect upon: The individual vs the group. The created vs. the creator. The artificial vs the biotic. The fantasy vs reality. And, what does it mean to be human? BTW: ST-TNG has Data pursuing the attainment of the human condition - but are there any 'older' Roddenberry fans out there who saw the 1974 TV movie "The Questor Tapes"? (see IMDb and Wikipedia). It was marvelous Sci-Fi, and for the Star Trek trivia buffs, did you know that Data's character was based in part on the android Questor?!
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Post by burningcherry on Jan 14, 2019 14:21:41 GMT
Thank you for making this comment about the quarians choosing to NOT find a new homeworld when they could have. This is not entirely true bsn.boards.net/post/1196506And this (their reasons) is discussible ( sassafrassa provided a different perspective in the OP) and written in unencyclopedical style.
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Post by sgtreed24 on Jan 15, 2019 13:45:14 GMT
Krogan pirates and mercenaries are terrorizing Terminus space with brutal attacks, openly working with the likes of Batarian slavers. And yet, the Council maintains the Krogan memorial on the Presidium and they quietly ignore Krogan animosity; even amid threats of violence; out of 'respect'. The Quarians, on the other hand, are actively discriminated against. Being called 'suit rats' to their faces in casual conversation. Their embassy being kicked out of the Citadel. And the Council even threatening the Flotilla with military action when the Fleet tried to colonize an uninhabited world that wasn't even within the borders of Citadel Space.
Well, the council has never been the smartest throughout the series lol That said, Robots are cooler than Quarians.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 15, 2019 19:00:20 GMT
Krogan pirates and mercenaries are terrorizing Terminus space with brutal attacks, openly working with the likes of Batarian slavers. And yet, the Council maintains the Krogan memorial on the Presidium and they quietly ignore Krogan animosity; even amid threats of violence; out of 'respect'. The Quarians, on the other hand, are actively discriminated against. Being called 'suit rats' to their faces in casual conversation. Their embassy being kicked out of the Citadel. And the Council even threatening the Flotilla with military action when the Fleet tried to colonize an uninhabited world that wasn't even within the borders of Citadel Space.
Well, the council has never been the smartest throughout the series lol That said, Robots are cooler than Quarians. According to the Reapers, all robots will turn on organics. Even the Intelligence turned on organics. Now, I think the geth likely have long memories and would remember that they were saved but you never know. (Oh so different from organics vs organics, obviously.) Sadly, geth never survive after I fire the red beam.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 15, 2019 23:00:05 GMT
Sadly, geth never survive after I fire the red beam. Yep.
The problem is that for the geth to remain, the blue or green has to be chosen which means the reapers are still around. That's a no-go. Of course for the geth to remain, they have to upload reaper code. That's another no-go.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 15, 2019 23:11:40 GMT
Sadly, geth never survive after I fire the red beam. Yep.
The problem is that for the geth to remain, the blue or green has to be chosen which means the reapers are still around. That's a no-go. Of course for the geth to remain, they have to upload reaper code. That's another no-go.
There was no reason to change the geth. They were working just fine as a consensus. They didn't need to be "upgraded". Had they remained a consensus they could have survived the red beam. I call that a consequence of a rash decision.
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Post by ahglock on Jan 16, 2019 1:02:34 GMT
Even if I liked the geth I never got why anyone would let them upload reaper code. I mean from start to finish the game is filled with examples of people thinking they can avoid negative consequences from x reaper doohickey. They are all wrong and need to be shot in the face repeatedly. Why would anyone go yeah but this time I’m sure it will work out?
But in my games the geth never live to see the red beam. Okay a handful escape I think, so those few do.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 5:06:12 GMT
That said, Robots are cooler than Quarians.
Uhhm... robots? Or their (benevolent) software code?
Here's a really 'cool' robot: The class M-3 Model B-9 General Utility Non-Theorizing Environmental Control Robot, a.k.a. "Robot", in "Lost in Space".
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Post by Vortex13 on Jan 16, 2019 12:30:12 GMT
Yep.
The problem is that for the geth to remain, the blue or green has to be chosen which means the reapers are still around. That's a no-go. Of course for the geth to remain, they have to upload reaper code. That's another no-go.
There was no reason to change the geth. They were working just fine as a consensus. They didn't need to be "upgraded". Had they remained a consensus they could have survived the red beam. I call that a consequence of a rash decision. There was no reason to 'humanize' the Geth with said upgrade either. No only was it a completely idiotic decision to use Reaper based code in-game, but meta-wise it was also creatively bankrupt to strip out the Geth's unique consensus-based sapience in favor of Pinocchio bots. You could really tell how far the writing quality dipped in ME 3 when it came to the otherwise 'alien' elements of the setting, especially so with Chris Le'Toile no longer working for them.
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Post by sassafrassa on Jan 17, 2019 4:29:36 GMT
This thread's question is a good example of the issues that Sci-Fi stories explore, and that I love to reflect upon: The individual vs the group. The created vs. the creator. The artificial vs the biotic. The fantasy vs reality. And, what does it mean to be human? BTW: ST-TNG has Data pursuing the attainment of the human condition - but are there any 'older' Roddenberry fans out there who saw the 1974 TV movie "The Questor Tapes"? (see IMDb and Wikipedia). It was marvelous Sci-Fi, and for the Star Trek trivia buffs, did you know that Data's character was based in part on the android Questor?! [/div] [/quote] I appreciate your approach, though I think you are still leaving out a lot of the geth's history as well as the overall situation facing the quarian species. Is it always wrong to declare war first? Why can't the geth just leave the and go somewhere else? A reasonable case can be made that the quarians will not survive as a people without their homeworld. I also think that it is quite fair to blame the modern geth for the actions of all past geth because the geth of today are also the geth of yesterday. The geth aren't individuals living and dying and passing on stories and culture; they are the same programs just combining over and over in different platforms and all sharing their experiences. As I said, I am actually not without some sympathy for the geth but I am frustrated that the narrative continually attempts to paint the geth as having the moral highground when a close look at their history says otherwise.
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Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 17, 2019 5:28:29 GMT
As I said, I am actually not without some sympathy for the geth but I am frustrated that the narrative continually attempts to paint the geth as having the moral highground when a close look at their history says otherwise. Maybe, but the quarians certainly don't have any sort of high moral ground themselves. Both races made their decisions and so that where they end up in ME1.
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Post by griffith82 on Jan 17, 2019 17:36:23 GMT
Sadly, geth never survive after I fire the red beam. Yep.
The problem is that for the geth to remain, the blue or green has to be chosen which means the reapers are still around. That's a no-go. Of course for the geth to remain, they have to upload reaper code. That's another no-go.
Not for me. I choose blue or green usually green on my paragons.
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