dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 17, 2019 19:25:44 GMT
I won't choose anything that lets the Reapers off the hook and especially not one that lets them get their way. Fact is, war criminals are executed and none of them have committed galaxy-wide genocide 20000 times. Imagine, say, 100 inhabitable planets in the known galaxy (I'm vastly underestimating). They all have a minimum of 1000 and a maximum of 9 billion. For the sake of argument, we'll average it. 50 planets x 1000 people = 50000 people. 50 planets x 9 billion people = 450,000,000,000 people (no idea what that number is) 450,000,050,000 people. Over the course of those twenty thousand times we get a number that Google's calculator can't define, which is 9.000001e+15. That's a big enough number that we can't actually write it down.
I don't know how this is accurately known regarding deaths of Jews during WWII but depending on source anywhere between 3-6 million. That happened once and the people involved with it were executed. Why should beings who killed more entities that anyone can count be allowed to live? I know if I survived Synthesis I'd be plotting a way to destroy those fuckers forever. Forever. They almost certainly killed the vast majority of people I knew and that's unforgivable. I don't know how anyone can justify their continued existence.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jan 17, 2019 20:58:48 GMT
The geth counter-attack was overwhelming and merciless with every quarian man, woman, and child who could not flee beyond quarian space hunted down and killed. This is false. The geth let them go once they decided they were no longer a threat. They had never really wanted to rebel against their creators and wouldn't have done so had the quarians not attempted to destroy them. From the wiki entry on the geth: "Unknown to the quarians themselves, the geth actually allowed them to leave; unsure of the repercussions of eradicating an entire species-namely their own creators- and having decided that the quarians were now too weak to be a threat, the geth decided to draw back their forces so that the surviving quarians could flee. The fleet of quarian ships that escaped the Veil became known as the Migrant Fleet, and has been roaming the galaxy ever since." (emphasis mine) And what would have been the repercussions of eliminating the Quarians? Geth would have knowledge of the Council and would be able to access data on the Krogan Rebellion. Even a simple program would be able to put two and two together.
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Post by griffith82 on Jan 17, 2019 22:39:48 GMT
I won't choose anything that lets the Reapers off the hook and especially not one that lets them get their way. Fact is, war criminals are executed and none of them have committed galaxy-wide genocide 20000 times. Imagine, say, 100 inhabitable planets in the known galaxy (I'm vastly underestimating). They all have a minimum of 1000 and a maximum of 9 billion. For the sake of argument, we'll average it. 50 planets x 1000 people = 50000 people. 50 planets x 9 billion people = 450,000,000,000 people (no idea what that number is) 450,000,050,000 people. Over the course of those twenty thousand times we get a number that Google's calculator can't define, which is 9.000001e+15. That's a big enough number that we can't actually write it down.
I don't know how this is accurately known regarding deaths of Jews during WWII but depending on source anywhere between 3-6 million. That happened once and the people involved with it were executed. Why should beings who killed more entities that anyone can count be allowed to live? I know if I survived Synthesis I'd be plotting a way to destroy those fuckers forever. Forever. They almost certainly killed the vast majority of people I knew and that's unforgivable. I don't know how anyone can justify their continued existence.
Neither option let's them get their way imo.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 17, 2019 23:12:23 GMT
I won't choose anything that lets the Reapers off the hook and especially not one that lets them get their way. Fact is, war criminals are executed and none of them have committed galaxy-wide genocide 20000 times. Imagine, say, 100 inhabitable planets in the known galaxy (I'm vastly underestimating). They all have a minimum of 1000 and a maximum of 9 billion. For the sake of argument, we'll average it. 50 planets x 1000 people = 50000 people. 50 planets x 9 billion people = 450,000,000,000 people (no idea what that number is) 450,000,050,000 people. Over the course of those twenty thousand times we get a number that Google's calculator can't define, which is 9.000001e+15. That's a big enough number that we can't actually write it down.
I don't know how this is accurately known regarding deaths of Jews during WWII but depending on source anywhere between 3-6 million. That happened once and the people involved with it were executed. Why should beings who killed more entities that anyone can count be allowed to live? I know if I survived Synthesis I'd be plotting a way to destroy those fuckers forever. Forever. They almost certainly killed the vast majority of people I knew and that's unforgivable. I don't know how anyone can justify their continued existence.
Only those on the losing side. Unfortunately, those on the winning side are often seen as heroes. Sherman, Lemay, Harris, etc. Though that does lead to an interesting question. Do you think Shepard should be executed after the Reaper War? After all they are a war criminal who committed genocide(and I'm not referring to the Reapers here).
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dmc1001
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Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 17, 2019 23:14:10 GMT
This is false. The geth let them go once they decided they were no longer a threat. They had never really wanted to rebel against their creators and wouldn't have done so had the quarians not attempted to destroy them. From the wiki entry on the geth: "Unknown to the quarians themselves, the geth actually allowed them to leave; unsure of the repercussions of eradicating an entire species-namely their own creators- and having decided that the quarians were now too weak to be a threat, the geth decided to draw back their forces so that the surviving quarians could flee. The fleet of quarian ships that escaped the Veil became known as the Migrant Fleet, and has been roaming the galaxy ever since." (emphasis mine) And what would have been the repercussions of eliminating the Quarians? Geth would have knowledge of the Council and would be able to access data on the Krogan Rebellion. Even a simple program would be able to put two and two together. They said they didn't know what the repercussions might be. That's outright said in the game. What makes you think the geth didn't have knowledge of the Council? They had access to all records left behind by the quarians.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 17, 2019 23:18:53 GMT
I won't choose anything that lets the Reapers off the hook and especially not one that lets them get their way. Fact is, war criminals are executed and none of them have committed galaxy-wide genocide 20000 times. Imagine, say, 100 inhabitable planets in the known galaxy (I'm vastly underestimating). They all have a minimum of 1000 and a maximum of 9 billion. For the sake of argument, we'll average it. 50 planets x 1000 people = 50000 people. 50 planets x 9 billion people = 450,000,000,000 people (no idea what that number is) 450,000,050,000 people. Over the course of those twenty thousand times we get a number that Google's calculator can't define, which is 9.000001e+15. That's a big enough number that we can't actually write it down.
I don't know how this is accurately known regarding deaths of Jews during WWII but depending on source anywhere between 3-6 million. That happened once and the people involved with it were executed. Why should beings who killed more entities that anyone can count be allowed to live? I know if I survived Synthesis I'd be plotting a way to destroy those fuckers forever. Forever. They almost certainly killed the vast majority of people I knew and that's unforgivable. I don't know how anyone can justify their continued existence.
Neither option let's them get their way imo. The Catalyst wanted Synthesis. It decided that was the "end of evolution" (which is itself a load of crap) and that there would no longer be a reason for organics and synthetics to fight. So what? I'd kill those bastards under any circumstances. They need to "hang" for their crimes.
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Post by griffith82 on Jan 17, 2019 23:25:47 GMT
Neither option let's them get their way imo. The Catalyst wanted Synthesis. It decided that was the "end of evolution" (which is itself a load of crap) and that there would no longer be a reason for organics and synthetics to fight. So what? I'd kill those bastards under any circumstances. They need to "hang" for their crimes. I don't feel that way. The Catalyst said that was the final step synthetic and organic together. I believe that as the best option. I've chosen control once I prefer Synthesis.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jan 17, 2019 23:58:15 GMT
And what would have been the repercussions of eliminating the Quarians? Geth would have knowledge of the Council and would be able to access data on the Krogan Rebellion. Even a simple program would be able to put two and two together. They said they didn't know what the repercussions might be. That's outright said in the game. What makes you think the geth didn't have knowledge of the Council? They had access to all records left behind by the quarians. With those records they would know what the consequences would be.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 18, 2019 0:06:48 GMT
Remember that at this time the Geth were at their infancy. Like children, they might comprehend the concept of extinction but not fully understand it so avoided it. We even see that in the one memory where the Quarian died and the Geth kept calling out to them not understanding that they were dead.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on Jan 18, 2019 0:11:32 GMT
They said they didn't know what the repercussions might be. That's outright said in the game. What makes you think the geth didn't have knowledge of the Council? They had access to all records left behind by the quarians. With those records they would know what the consequences would be. They were still pretty young so it’s very plausible even if they had access to the records organic thought was not something they felt comfortable predicting. Whether they knew the repercussions or just feared possible ones. End result is they stopped short of total genocide out of self preservation not out of morality. If they were sure they’d of gotten away with it they would have killed every last one of them. They had already killed far far far past any self preservation or defense point.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 18, 2019 0:25:32 GMT
Though that does lead to an interesting question. Do you think Shepard should be executed after the Reaper War? After all they are a war criminal who committed genocide(and I'm not referring to the Reapers here). You have said that before. I will reply with what I've said before. If you believe Shepard to be a war criminal, shouldn't the asari be war criminals as well for failing to reveal an artifact earlierthan they did that might have saved x number of lives?
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Post by Vortex13 on Jan 18, 2019 1:05:33 GMT
Though that does lead to an interesting question. Do you think Shepard should be executed after the Reaper War? After all they are a war criminal who committed genocide(and I'm not referring to the Reapers here). You have said that before. I will reply with what I've said before. If you believe Shepard to be a war criminal, shouldn't the asari be war criminals as well for failing to reveal an artifact earlierthan they did that might have saved x number of lives? So would the Krogan, for not helping to fight and instead placing the whole war effort on hold until the Genophage was cured. Or the Salarians for holding back on ships and manpower. Or the Geth for siding with the enemy. Really it’s only humanity, the turians, and the rachni who didn’t hold anything back, or preform actions directly opposed to the galactic defense.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 18, 2019 3:16:13 GMT
They said they didn't know what the repercussions might be. That's outright said in the game. What makes you think the geth didn't have knowledge of the Council? They had access to all records left behind by the quarians. With those records they would know what the consequences would be. I hear what you're saying. I just don't understand why you think the geth never had those records. Quarians had records. Quarians fled in a hurry. Records remain on Rannoch. Ergo, the geth always had those records.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 18, 2019 3:32:08 GMT
Only those on the losing side. Unfortunately, those on the winning side are often seen as heroes. Sherman, Lemay, Harris, etc. Though that does lead to an interesting question. Do you think Shepard should be executed after the Reaper War? After all they are a war criminal who committed genocide(and I'm not referring to the Reapers here). One side was working to annihilate the other. The other side was trying to become extinct. Not sure how you can compare them. It was made pretty clear that the Reapers could not be defeated through conventional means. Honestly, though, I'm not looking to put the Reapers on trial. They are indisputably guilty of genocide on a scale that defies comprehension. This isn't about who killed the most people. It's about why the killing was done. I guess Shepard should have just rolled over and let the galaxy be destroyed for the twenty-thousand and oneth time in or to avoid being a "war criminal". Fact is, the Reapers are so overwhelmingly powerful that not destroying them completely makes them a continued threat. Nothing stops a number of them from fleeing to dark space and periodically returning to the MW to harvest other races, thus creating more of them. We know for a face that the Intelligence was able to defeat the Leviathan, using their blood to create the first Reaper, Harbinger. I'm sure you believe Synthesis would be the end of animosity. Why?
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 18, 2019 3:33:29 GMT
You have said that before. I will reply with what I've said before. If you believe Shepard to be a war criminal, shouldn't the asari be war criminals as well for failing to reveal an artifact earlierthan they did that might have saved x number of lives? So would the Krogan, for not helping to fight and instead placing the whole war effort on hold until the Genophage was cured. Or the Salarians for holding back on ships and manpower. Or the Geth for siding with the enemy. Really it’s only humanity, the turians, and the rachni who didn’t hold anything back, or preform actions directly opposed to the galactic defense. Turian help was predicated on krogan support. Only humanity and the rachni had no requirements.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 18, 2019 3:41:45 GMT
Only those on the losing side. Unfortunately, those on the winning side are often seen as heroes. Sherman, Lemay, Harris, etc. Though that does lead to an interesting question. Do you think Shepard should be executed after the Reaper War? After all they are a war criminal who committed genocide(and I'm not referring to the Reapers here). One side was working to annihilate the other. The other side was trying to become extinct. Not sure how you can compare them. It was made pretty clear that the Reapers could not be defeated through conventional means. Honestly, though, I'm not looking to put the Reapers on trial. They are indisputably guilty of genocide on a scale that defies comprehension. This isn't about who killed the most people. It's about why the killing was done. I guess Shepard should have just rolled over and let the galaxy be destroyed for the twenty-thousand and oneth time in or to avoid being a "war criminal". Fact is, the Reapers are so overwhelmingly powerful that not destroying them completely makes them a continued threat. Nothing stops a number of them from fleeing to dark space and periodically returning to the MW to harvest other races, thus creating more of them. We know for a face that the Intelligence was able to defeat the Leviathan, using their blood to create the first Reaper, Harbinger. I'm sure you believe Synthesis would be the end of animosity. Why? As I said, I was not referring to the Reapers being the victims of Shepard though thank you for proving my point about how perspective determines judgement. And no, I don’t think Synthesis would be the end of animosity. A big step towards ending it absolutely but really as long as there is free will there will always be a potential for it (I’m not advocating removing free will, just that it leads to bad as well as good). I choose Synthesis because I think it is everyone’s best chance since the Reapers are not nearly as apex as they think, as we see with beings like the Hardaan and whoever created the Scourge, and it also ensures the survival of my favorite Mass Effect race.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 18, 2019 3:43:20 GMT
So would the Krogan, for not helping to fight and instead placing the whole war effort on hold until the Genophage was cured. Or the Salarians for holding back on ships and manpower. Or the Geth for siding with the enemy. Really it’s only humanity, the turians, and the rachni who didn’t hold anything back, or preform actions directly opposed to the galactic defense. Turian help was predicated on krogan support. Only humanity and the rachni had no requirements. And the Rachni didn’t even help, instead like the Geth were getting ready for the war until events led to them being under the tendrils of the Reapers, only helping us once we help them. No race was fully altruistic.
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Post by sassafrassa on Jan 18, 2019 7:57:52 GMT
As I said, I am actually not without some sympathy for the geth but I am frustrated that the narrative continually attempts to paint the geth as having the moral highground when a close look at their history says otherwise. Maybe, but the quarians certainly don't have any sort of high moral ground themselves. Both races made their decisions and so that where they end up in ME1. You cannot judge modern quarians like you can the geth.
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Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 18, 2019 8:49:30 GMT
Maybe, but the quarians certainly don't have any sort of high moral ground themselves. Both races made their decisions and so that where they end up in ME1. You cannot judge modern quarians like you can the geth. It's true that the modern quarians weren't responsible for what happened before. In ME2 the quarians planned to attack the geth. They "killed" geth and brought their parts into the fleet. That's quarians directly creating conflict. In ME3, again they started an attack on the geth and it nearly cost them everything. So, yes, I can judge them because they never stopped fighting.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jan 18, 2019 12:26:14 GMT
So would the Krogan, for not helping to fight and instead placing the whole war effort on hold until the Genophage was cured. Or the Salarians for holding back on ships and manpower. Or the Geth for siding with the enemy. Really it’s only humanity, the turians, and the rachni who didn’t hold anything back, or preform actions directly opposed to the galactic defense. Turian help was predicated on krogan support. Only humanity and the rachni had no requirements. Except the Turians, unlike the Krogan, were actually contributing to the war effort as it was. In keeping a large portion of the Reaper forces occupied over Palaven the other species could afford to mobilize and reposition assets. And it's not like the Turians were purposely holding back troops or information vital to the war intentionally (Krogan/Asari), they literally couldn't afford to send support without losing one of the only contested areas in the galaxy to the invaders.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 18, 2019 12:33:12 GMT
You cannot judge modern quarians like you can the geth. It's true that the modern quarians weren't responsible for what happened before. In ME2 the quarians planned to attack the geth. They "killed" geth and brought their parts into the fleet. That's quarians directly creating conflict. In ME3, again they started an attack on the geth and it nearly cost them everything. So, yes, I can judge them because they never stopped fighting. In the case of ME3, it was because of reaper interference that cost them almost everything.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 18, 2019 18:20:57 GMT
You cannot judge modern quarians like you can the geth. It's true that the modern quarians weren't responsible for what happened before. In ME2 the quarians planned to attack the geth. They "killed" geth and brought their parts into the fleet. That's quarians directly creating conflict. In ME3, again they started an attack on the geth and it nearly cost them everything. So, yes, I can judge them because they never stopped fighting. ”The Geth don’t want to fight you. If you can believe that for one second, this war will be over.”
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Post by griffith82 on Jan 18, 2019 18:24:44 GMT
Turian help was predicated on krogan support. Only humanity and the rachni had no requirements. Except the Turians, unlike the Krogan, were actually contributing to the war effort as it was. In keeping a large portion of the Reaper forces occupied over Palaven the other species could afford to mobilize and reposition assets. And it's not like the Turians were purposely holding back troops or information vital to the war intentionally (Krogan/Asari), they literally couldn't afford to send support without losing one of the only contested areas in the galaxy to the invaders. Everyone was caught off guard. The Asari were afraid, and fear made them want to stay put. Does that absolve them? No but as Shep said in ME 1 its human nature even in Aliens. The Krogan rely on others they have no ships of their own. Not sure what you expected them to do without an incentive.
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Post by griffith82 on Jan 18, 2019 18:25:38 GMT
It's true that the modern quarians weren't responsible for what happened before. In ME2 the quarians planned to attack the geth. They "killed" geth and brought their parts into the fleet. That's quarians directly creating conflict. In ME3, again they started an attack on the geth and it nearly cost them everything. So, yes, I can judge them because they never stopped fighting. ”The Geth don’t want to fight you. If you can believe that for one second, this war will be over.” I love Legion.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 18, 2019 18:27:52 GMT
”The Geth don’t want to fight you. If you can believe that for one second, this war will be over.” I love Legion. My favorite squadmate in the franchise.
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