TheEmptyRoad
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Post by TheEmptyRoad on Jan 13, 2019 1:32:08 GMT
Wot in Inquisition is goin' on in this thread?
I do like how my fellow straight bois have gotten on the Dwarf-Qunari train, screw racism IRL or Fantasy!
#IjustwantaDwarfGirl #Isthattoomuchtoask?
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Post by thats1evildude on Jan 13, 2019 1:36:00 GMT
You’d think from the number of people who constantly bemoan the lack of romanceable dwarves that they’d get more votes, but with the exception of lesbians interested in dorf ladies, they’re the least popular romantic option. Gay men are especially uninterested in dwarves. Maybe the beards send the wrong signal?
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copper
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Post by copper on Jan 13, 2019 1:40:36 GMT
You’d think from the number of people who constantly bemoan the lack of romanceable dwarves that they’d get more votes We're an extremely vocal minority
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 13, 2019 2:09:57 GMT
You’d think from the number of people who constantly bemoan the lack of romanceable dwarves that they’d get more votes We're an extremely vocal minority In the immortal words of Laidlaw: "You don't anger the dwarf fans. They're prepared to go to war."
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 13, 2019 2:11:16 GMT
I dont know if dwarves are not that popular because of their height, as gay man I know how height can be a big deal for some stupid men, same with straight women, at least what I have seen. But height differences are cuteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee For me it's not just about height. Dwarves aren't just short, they have a specific dwarf look that is just not the same as human men. They're stocky/burly, and I'm just not into that build. I don't like human men with that build, either, regardless of height. For example, I dislike the way male Hawke looks in his mage Champion armor for that reason. (I also don't find dramatic height differences to be cute.) I'm not a height queen when it comes to men. At 4'11'', pretty much all men are taller than me. I know some women demand a 6'+ dude, but I'd be fine with a short guy that is 5'6" or something.
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Post by Artemis on Jan 13, 2019 2:15:02 GMT
Did the guy I blocked say something questionable? Depends on who you blocked? and I'm guessing I will ignore them as well sorry but the conversation turned to (shrug?) can't put a finger on it Whoever it was andraste quoted lol If they say something shitty chances are I've already blocked them ages ago. These guys have a pattern. They keep spouting the same hateful rhetoric and the policing on this forum is abysmal so I just block block block. Problem solved.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 13, 2019 2:22:13 GMT
But height differences are cuteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Yeeesss. 👌 Though if the opportunity for a dwarf x dwarf or qunari x qunari romance comes up I'll probably take it. But for real, Sera is Adaar's tiny elf wife, she could pick her up with one arm and it K I L L S M E with cute. 😭❤
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cankiie
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People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
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Post by cankiie on Jan 13, 2019 8:16:07 GMT
Because it dictates a certain way that masculine people are allowed to be, creating a norm that everyone, masculine or feminine, expects masculine people to strictly adhere to. Desirability isn’t all about individual attraction. If a certain mode of feminine or masculine expression is shunned by society at large, people who would otherwise be into those people feel pressure not to act on their attraction. Realistically speaking, if you’re with someone who other people would judge as inferior, it also makes your own life harder. In fiction, we like to pretend true love conquers all, but sometimes people do get talked out of a relationship that was otherwise good due to pressure from family or friends. Or even finances, if their nontraditional roles make it harder to earn as much money as couples in traditional roles. It’s not fair to either party in that situation, but that’s part of why toxic masculinity sucks so much. Masculinity does tend to be more limiting and restrictive than femininity in a lot of ways, so there’s a very narrow range of “acceptable” manhood. People who oppose toxic masculinity want to widen that range. I am surprised that you can not read your own arguments and NOT come to the conclusion that all you described is people being 'stupid people' There is no social norm, there is nothing existing to enforce a social norm. Toxic masculinity is still bullshit. Just like toxic femininity would be and is equally bullshit had the term ever come into existence, but let us face it, it did not because toxic masculinity is a term created solely to slander men. Otherwise we would probably have seen the term 'toxic femininity' be quite popular due to the daily problems women seem to carry around due to the sole problem of pressure from other women, but no... that one is probably ALSO somehow crammed into toxic masculintiy because it is men and masculinity's fault! You gotta look at where the term actually originated, it wasn't even from some socio-science expert. It was from goddamn radicals. People would be served better to read stuff from actual psycology experts with many years of experience within the field, rather than something originating from 'gender studies' It is also just common sense, really. Just a shame many people are so extremely willing to ignore something like this when they fall under the same false pretenses, even if the discussion is attempted to remain civil. But I would agree with moderators at this point, I should probably let this rest... but now I feel I have done my outmost to actually prove that the term is absolutely bogus.
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Andraste_Reborn
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Jan 13, 2019 9:28:48 GMT
People would be served better to read stuff from actual psycology experts with many years of experience within the field, rather than something originating from 'gender studies'
(No, really, everyone should read them! They are good, fun and informative.)
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cankiie
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Post by cankiie on Jan 13, 2019 11:39:06 GMT
People would be served better to read stuff from actual psycology experts with many years of experience within the field, rather than something originating from 'gender studies'
(No, really, everyone should read them! They are good, fun and informative.)
They certainly are. A lot of which I try to convey is already written in her books.
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Post by Rouccoco on Jan 13, 2019 14:04:13 GMT
I dislike the way male Hawke looks in his mage Champion armor for that reason Such betrayal? Right in front of my salad?
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Post by Syv on Jan 13, 2019 14:19:17 GMT
I'm not sure I got it, are you saying that women's sexual selectivity (which forces men to act according to their preferences if they wish to ever have sex/be in a relationship in their lives) is referred to as toxic masculinity? I'm pretty sure it's not the masculine part of women that makes them sexually selective. It’s referred to as “toxic masculinity” not because the source of the pressure is masculine, but because the pressure manifests as obnoxious restrictions on masculinity. Toxic food happens when some toxin (usually unintentionally) gets into the food and poisons it. Toxic masculinity happens when some toxin (usually unintentionally) gets into the masculinity and poisons it. I'm pretty sure that women having a clear preference for tall guys, ( one of the masculine traits ) is because that's something they find " naturally " ( meaning without social pressure ) much more appealing to them, and because they feel unconsciously more protected and reassured. ( which is often stated when you ask random women why it is a big deal, beyond the physical appeal ) I don't think you have any idea how much it is difficult for small guys, especially those who are smaller than women to date women. At least where I come from. They keep being rejeted, and a lot of women openly state that they couldn't date guys smaller than them. It's like that with my sister, with my friends, with of lot of women. When you ask random women what are their preferences, the word " tall " is the most used. That' pretty much something considered as masculine. I'm pretty sure that men ( or toxic masculinity ) don't force them to find tall guys ( a masculine trait ) more appealing to them. Small guys are at a clear disadvantage. It's obvious if you go outside and have a lot of interactions with women. Even small guys who have a pretty face, have difficulties to find women that please them. I know guys, quite attractive, that kept being rejeted only because of their heigh. One of them succeeded to find a girlfriend, but mostly because he was handsome and kept trying. I can't imagine if he would have had just a normal or meh face. Why this natural and sexual selectivity from women ( and I don't blame them, that's preferences ) would be considered as toxic masculinity ? Why not toxic feminity for example ?
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 13, 2019 15:52:26 GMT
It’s referred to as “toxic masculinity” not because the source of the pressure is masculine, but because the pressure manifests as obnoxious restrictions on masculinity. Toxic food happens when some toxin (usually unintentionally) gets into the food and poisons it. Toxic masculinity happens when some toxin (usually unintentionally) gets into the masculinity and poisons it. I'm pretty sure that women having a clear preference for tall guys, ( one of the masculine traits ) is because that's something they find " naturally " ( meaning without social pressure ) much more appealing to them, and because they feel unconsciously more protected and reassured. ( which is often stated when you ask random women why it is a big deal, beyond the physical appeal ) I don't think you have any idea how much it is difficult for small guys, especially those who are smaller than women to date women. At least where I come from. They keep being rejeted, and a lot of women openly state that they couldn't date guys smaller than them. It's like that with my sister, with my friends, with of lot of women. When you ask random women what are their preferences, the word " tall " is the most used. That' pretty much something considered as masculine. I'm pretty sure that men ( or toxic masculinity ) don't force them to find tall guys ( a masculine trait ) more appealing to them. Small guys are at a clear disadvantage. It's obvious if you go outside and have a lot of interactions with women. Even small guys who have a pretty face, have difficulties to find women that please them. I know guys, quite attractive, that kept being rejeted only because of their heigh. One of them succeeded to find a girlfriend, but mostly because he was handsome and kept trying. I can't imagine if he would have had just a normal or meh face. Why this natural and sexual selectivity from women ( and I don't blame them, that's preferences ) would be considered as toxic masculinity ? Why not toxic feminity for example ? People have strong, subconscious feelings about lots of stuff that’s not actually natural. For example, money is a social construct in much the same way that masculinity and femininity are social constructs (i.e. it technically springs from natural needs, but its current connection to nature is extremely loose). However, that doesn’t mean people only have shallow, highly-abstract feelings about money. It dictates a lot of our day-to-day lives. So people think about money on a subconscious, visceral, even personal level — but just like gender expression, if we put forth a lot of effort, we can change how money operates, ‘cause we made it up. For more details on how gender expression is largely cultural, see Andraste_Reborn’s post with the book links. Going back to the money analogy, when people talk about stuff like massive wealth inequality, they’re likewise not talking about individual wealthy people. If you punish individual wealthy people but the system that created them stays intact, nothing actually changes — new ultra-wealthy people spring up to take their place. Plus, massive wealth inequality also harms the wealthy, because now they must live in terror of losing their spot and plunging straight into poverty. Similarly, the idea of toxic masculinity is not about punishing or shaming men. It’s about a system that creates certain outcomes, harming people of all gender expressions. People who fit the current perfect ideal of masculinity may benefit on the surface, but they live in terror of doing or being something that will void their masculinity. Exactly as you pointed out, lacking one tiny aspect of masculinity (height) very quickly destroys someone’s masculinity. This is not as true of femininity, which is usually more permissive of things like being tall or wearing pants. This is why people are so interested in broadening the scope of masculinity so it’s not so restrictive.
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Post by Rouccoco on Jan 13, 2019 16:40:41 GMT
Why this natural and sexual selectivity from women ( and I don't blame them, that's preferences ) would be considered as toxic masculinity ? Why not toxic feminity for example ? The reason this discussion, which lost its relevance to the thread topic some time ago, might I mention, is still going, is because people don't understand the phrase "toxic masculinity." It doesn't mean that only men engage in it, but it's a shorthand for "toxic ideas of what it means to be masculine/a man." Women don't have a magical mental barrier to block those ideas out. If someone, male or female, is told from early on that a real man is competitive, tall, muscular, aggressive, carrier-oriented, dominant, straight, and so on, then they're going to believe it. Both men and women describe short, thin, brawn, quiet, or nerdy men as unmasculine, because of restrictive ideas, what masculinity is about, i.e. toxic masculinity. I'm a guy and I like bigger guys for pretty much the same reasons. But not all gay men feel the same. Not all women do. So consider that maybe the need to feel protected by a bigger partner is a personality thing and not a natural urge women have.
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cankiie
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People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
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Post by cankiie on Jan 13, 2019 17:30:56 GMT
The reason this discussion, which lost its relevance to the thread topic some time ago, might I mention, is still going, is because people don't understand the phrase "toxic masculinity." It doesn't mean that only men engage in it, but it's a shorthand for "toxic ideas of what it means to be masculine/a man." Women don't have a magical mental barrier to block those ideas out. If someone, male or female, is told from early on that a real man is competitive, tall, muscular, aggressive, carrier-oriented, dominant, straight, and so on, then they're going to believe it. Both men and women describe short, thin, brawn, quiet, or nerdy men as unmasculine, because of restrictive ideas, what masculinity is about, i.e. toxic masculinity. No one is telling young boys that 'real men' engage in any of these activities. They may learn that certain behaviors are more common in a specific gender, but they do not learn that 'real men' have these ideas. Toxic masculinity is a bogus term. Also because the term originated from radicals who looked at some data, in regards to men and their higher likelihood to be violent perpetrators which is often linked to men being more likely to be aggressive, competitive etc etc. Therefor it is in fact a term used to slander commonly masculine traits, based on some misguided ideas. There is a reason it is called 'toxic masculinity' afterall.
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 13, 2019 17:49:48 GMT
The wind swishes against the griffon LIs’ wings, corded shoulder muscles flexing as dew streaks across them like distilled lyrium. The brother, The Point, caws loudly through the clear air. It’s no use. No one is looking for him, and once again he passes overhead, unnoticed.
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Post by Rouccoco on Jan 13, 2019 18:39:13 GMT
So... Back to the topic. I marked every male option, aside from elves, because I like bearish guys, and up till now elves in Thedas are 100% slim. Yet to see a hairy elf or one with a beard, so that's a minus for me too.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 13, 2019 19:26:50 GMT
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 13, 2019 19:27:59 GMT
So... Back to the topic. I marked every male option, aside from elves, because I like bearish guys, and up till now elves in Thedas are 100% slim. Yet to see a hairy elf or one with a beard, so that's a minus for me too. There’s a bearded elf in Dragon Age: Redemption, but last I heard his canon status was questionable, at least with regards to the beard. Though with the right vallaslin, some elves do look faintly bearded. How would you feel about a really stacked elf (who’s as much an outlier from average elves as Bull is from average vashoth) with one of the beardier vallaslin? There wouldn’t be the sensation of hair, but the look might be there.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 13, 2019 19:35:23 GMT
There’s a bearded elf in Dragon Age: Redemption, but last I heard his canon status was questionable, at least with regards to the beard. That has got to be the lamest vallaslin I've ever seen. This is the vallaslin you get when you're afraid of needles but have no choice. Though with the right vallaslin, some elves do look faintly bearded. How would you feel about a really stacked elf (who’s as much an outlier from average elves as Bull is from average vashoth) with one of the beardier vallaslin? There wouldn’t be the sensation of hair, but the look might be there. That doesn't apply to body hair, though, and I'm pretty sure BA wants that as well. I'm with him on that one (though probably to a lesser degree ). I definitely headcanon my Inquisitor as having a decent amount, and I use this mod for Hawke: www.nexusmods.com/dragonage2/mods/2332
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 13, 2019 19:42:15 GMT
There’s a bearded elf in Dragon Age: Redemption, but last I heard his canon status was questionable, at least with regards to the beard. That has got to be the lamest vallaslin I've ever seen. This is the vallaslin you get when you're afraid of needles but have no choice. Though with the right vallaslin, some elves do look faintly bearded. How would you feel about a really stacked elf (who’s as much an outlier from average elves as Bull is from average vashoth) with one of the beardier vallaslin? There wouldn’t be the sensation of hair, but the look might be there. That doesn't apply to body hair, though, and I'm pretty sure BA wants that as well. I'm with him on that one (though probably to a lesser degree ). I definitely headcanon my Inquisitor as having a decent amount, and I use this mod for Hawke: www.nexusmods.com/dragonage2/mods/2332They canonically ( ) have some body hair, as evidenced by the fact that Seramancers can shave something rude into their privates. Obviously it’s unclear how far beyond the pubes their hair extends, but who knows? There could be enough natural variation to get lucky there.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 13, 2019 19:49:25 GMT
They canonically ( ) have some body hair, as evidenced by the fact that Seramancers can shave something rude into their privates. Oh I wasn't trying to suggest that they're bare, but sparse/fine/wispy is likely not what some of us who prefer a bit more hair are going for.
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 13, 2019 19:59:35 GMT
They canonically ( ) have some body hair, as evidenced by the fact that Seramancers can shave something rude into their privates. Oh I wasn't trying to suggest that they're bare, but sparse/fine/wispy is likely not what some of us who prefer a bit more hair are going for. Understood, but we don’t know how hairy they can get exactly. Even with dwarves and humans, who can definitely get lots of body hair, they really only have lots of body hair if their name is Varric or Thom. Everyone else is sort of a Ken doll by default. Only when a character is explicitly hairy do they get any visible chest hair, and then they get loads of it. In Thedas, chest hair is a binary, not a spectrum.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2019 20:01:02 GMT
Beards aside the lack of body hair seem to be more BioWare not putting hair on much of anyone than a lore issue. Though Elves being hairless is fairly common in other lore places as well. I can't think of anyone not Varric that has any chest hair off the top of my head that wasn't added there by mods... Ugh I hope I'm wrong, cause that's kind of depressing.
Edit: just noticed my sentence reads like Varric made a chest wig out of my hair... sounds reasonable enough.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 13, 2019 20:29:42 GMT
Even with dwarves and humans, who can definitely get lots of body hair, they really only have lots of body hair if their name is Varric or Thom. Everyone else is sort of a Ken doll by default. Only when a character is explicitly hairy do they get any visible chest hair, and then they get loads of it. In Thedas, chest hair is a binary, not a spectrum. I don't really look to player or character models as establishing hairiness, lack thereof, or grooming habits among races, any more than they establish height or body types. It's well known that Bioware uses the same body model unless there is a specific unique character (Isabela, Iron Bull, Varric) that requires something different. Human male Inquisitor, Dorian, and Cullen all look the same when naked, aside from skin tone. That's not realistic and is the result of Bioware's game design. This trend has continued from DAO and DA2. You really think Oghren has the waxed body that we see in DAO when his armor is removed? I highly doubt it. I also think Cassandra would look far more muscular than the default human female model that we get. The lore, from general dialogue, has established that dwarves are more hairy, while elves are less so. That's pretty much all we get.
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