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Post by Mobius Y on May 2, 2019 13:17:54 GMT
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Post by linksocarina on May 2, 2019 17:39:36 GMT
Sheer irony is that Bioware had one of the best engines, all around, when it comes to making rpgs and easy to implement content. It was technically outdated at the time, but imagine if they continued with Aurora ( Neverwinter Nights)? Not even Bethesda games come close to amount of content you would have with a single game. Nah, I think Aurora had run its course. Not only technically outdated, I believe it was too limited to make the more modern Action-RPGs we're talking about here. The Witcher 1 was made using a heavily modified Aurora engine, and even though it worked OK-ish, the fact that CDPR decided to make their own for TW2 tells us enough. According to this wikipedia article Bioware used to make a new version of their engine pretty much with every new release. DAO and DA2 were the last of Bioware game using updated Aurora engine while MET was made using Unreal Engine 3. Seems like the dev team had a habit of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.
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Post by linksocarina on May 2, 2019 17:43:38 GMT
True, but at this point they have built up a ton of assets and kits to work around that limitation. The trick now should be implementation of things. Like a proprietary engine, Frostbite RP or something for rpgs and 3rd person action.
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Post by aglomeracja on May 2, 2019 17:45:09 GMT
According to this wikipedia article Bioware used to make a new version of their engine pretty much with every new release. DAO and DA2 were the last of Bioware game using updated Aurora engine while MET was made using Unreal Engine 3. Seems like the dev team had a habit of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. What do you mean? They didn't throw away those engines, just upgraded them and gave them different names.
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Post by linksocarina on May 2, 2019 17:50:19 GMT
Seems like the dev team had a habit of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. What do you mean? They didn't throw away those engines, just upgraded them and gave them different names. Well, they had aurora, odyssey, eclipse and lyceium versions, each basically trashes the original engine and enhances further right? The thing I'm noticing is they had a pattern of upgrading/using different toolsets, that may be the skeleton of the original engine but had widely different properties to them. To me that is changing your style of development constantly between projects, akin to using frostbite 3 times for 3 different builds.
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Post by aglomeracja on May 2, 2019 18:47:33 GMT
What do you mean? They didn't throw away those engines, just upgraded them and gave them different names. Well, they had aurora, odyssey, eclipse and lyceium versions, each basically trashes the original engine and enhances further right? The thing I'm noticing is they had a pattern of upgrading/using different toolsets, that may be the skeleton of the original engine but had widely different properties to them. To me that is changing your style of development constantly between projects, akin to using frostbite 3 times for 3 different builds. You wouldn't be able to enhance something you previously trashed, by definition 
They probably reused a lot of code, because they were making rather similar games, never worked on more than one at a time etc. They also reused a lot of assets from DAI in MEA, only Anthem turned out to be somewhat different.
As for the "style of development", until now they either did isometric RPG's where you control up to 6 characters, or TPP action RPG's where you control your main character and have up to 2 followers. There always were big hubs to explore with separate instances for caves, bunkers, towers and whatnot. A semi-open world. There never was an option to jump over or climb an obstacle, you would either hit a wall or pass. Changes between different games were rather small, so IMO they sticked to exactly the same style of development, which was way more efficient than what they're presenting now.
They had problem's with MEA, because they wasted a lot of time not knowing what kind of game they want to make (and ended up making DAI in space). They also had the same problem with Anthem, plus it wasn't even supposed to be an RPG, so there wasn't much they could reuse from DAI. On top of that, they're using Frostbite which isn't suitable for any of those projects adusting in to their needs took way more time and effort than they could afford.
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Post by Slartibartfast on May 2, 2019 18:47:53 GMT
What do you mean? They didn't throw away those engines, just upgraded them and gave them different names. Well, they had aurora, odyssey, eclipse and lyceium versions, each basically trashes the original engine and enhances further right? The thing I'm noticing is they had a pattern of upgrading/using different toolsets, that may be the skeleton of the original engine but had widely different properties to them. To me that is changing your style of development constantly between projects, akin to using frostbite 3 times for 3 different builds. It doesn't necessarily mean scrapping and starting all over, but one can assume that they needed to change quite a lot since it meant name changes every time. Small tweaks wouldn't have lead to that, IMO. An educated guess here is that they finally felt that the Aurora-based engine had reached the end of the road. Interesting also, that EA chief Patrik Söderlund stated in that interview that they'd never force any of their studios to use Frostbite. Then again, EA lead may "strongly recommend" something, which technically isn't forcing...
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Post by Croatsky on May 8, 2019 15:54:03 GMT
No.
Problem was BioWare had to re-design Frostbite engine from scratch with each game they developed, as DAI, ME:A and Anthem are way too drastically different games for them to depend on the same code.
Due to lack of support from EA with Frostbite itself, BioWare devs had to figure all of it by themselves.
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Post by Slartibartfast on May 8, 2019 20:14:29 GMT
Due to lack of support from EA with Frostbite itself, BioWare devs had to figure all of it by themselves. Not entirely true. At least for DAI, DICE gave support, but probably not as much as Bioware needed. And one major obstacle was the time difference of 8 hours between BW office and DICE in Sweden.
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Post by tatarforas on May 9, 2019 17:57:52 GMT
Buddy, you're skipping a step here. You have to prove Frostbite is a bad tool first. Unless they're lying for some reason, there are a ton of statements from former/current Bioware employees on how difficult it is to work on ( Even Amy Hanning commented on this). It's pretty common knowledge it's a very specialized engine ( designed for FPS).
Lol "specialized engine" that's the best part because even BF3 and BF4 were buggy messes and Frosbite was created specifically for that series lmao. That being said I don't put the blame entirely on the engine, it's very cleary that Bioware has a serious management problem, after all they had to be told by a exec to keep the flying mechanic in their game! "More is lost by indecision than wrong decision. Indecision is the thief of opportunity. It will steal you blind." Bioware's management couldn't even make up their minds about a feature in their game that most people were looking forward to.
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on May 11, 2019 14:05:02 GMT
Found this on youtube about UNREAL Engine 4.......There was a time when I thought the Frostbite engine was vastly superior and the cutting-edge of tech, but after seeing this-- as good as Andromeda, DAI and ATHEM look, I think this demo looks better in terms of realism
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Post by Kappa Neko on May 11, 2019 15:27:18 GMT
Frostbite is not so good for faces imo. At least not what I've seen from Bioware. There's some degree of plastic or clay face going on. There is something off in general. Very colorful environments that can look stunning but it's all so... smooth? It was OK for a fantasy game like DAI but it's too clean a look for my liking. I like faces better in pretty much any other engine even if the animations aren't always the best. I prefer slightly frozen faces but a realistic look to over-animated clay faces. And when it comes to post-processing nothing beats the magic that Sony is currently working with their ICE team for first party games. I thought RDR2 looked this good because of Rock Star but then I saw gameplay of Days Gone and these two games look very similar.The way they do weather and color grading at Sony is damn impressive. Best on the market imo. Games like Far Cry 5 look ugly as fuck in comparison. Washed out colors, just bad.
Post-processing matters way more than textures for a pleasing look. I couldn't get Skyrirm on PC with a great ENB to look as good as RDR2 looks. on a fucking console! Anthem imo looks downright ugly to me in comparison. I don't like the colors and rough lighting there at all. RDR2's look is a piece of art.
Sony gives proper tech support to their first party devs. EA can learn a lot from Sony! Give ALL your devs proper Frostbite support if you want them to be able to do good work with the engine! It's not that hard...
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 11, 2019 15:46:55 GMT
Wouldn't that be the dream.
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Post by Superhik on May 11, 2019 17:55:59 GMT
No. Problem was BioWare had to re-design Frostbite engine from scratch with each game they developed, as DAI, ME:A and Anthem are way too drastically different games for them to depend on the same code. Due to lack of support from EA with Frostbite itself, BioWare devs had to figure all of it by themselves. They didn't have to re-design Frostbite, they had to come up with different tools that initially the engine was not intended to use ( because it was made for a very specific type of game).
Because of this, something that seems easy to implement, ends up difficult, time consuming, often requires work-arounds/hacks, or creates their own problems instead.
"I can't speak for any of Anthem's dev itself, but all the criticisms of Frostbite, the shittiest engine I've ever worked with are 100% on point and seriously my life is so much better on Unreal now where things, you know, work and content creators are, you know, empowered" ( From none other than Manveer Heir)
Shamus Young put it best: "It's the difference between making changes to foundation of a house that you're planning to build, next to one that already is built".
“I would say the biggest problem I had with Frostbite was how many steps you needed to do something basic. With another engine I could do something myself, maybe with a designer. Here it’s a complicated thing.”
"BioWare developers say Frostbite can make their jobs exponentially more difficult. Building new iterations on levels and mechanics can be challenging due to sluggish tools, while bugs that should take a few minutes to squash might require days of back-and-forth conversations."
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Post by tatann on May 11, 2019 17:58:35 GMT
Found this on youtube about UNREAL Engine 4.......There was a time when I thought the Frostbite engine was vastly superior and the cutting-edge of tech, but after seeing this-- as good as Andromeda, DAI and ATHEM look, I think this demo looks better in terms of realism But Frostbite is great ! No ? I mean every game since BF3 or 4 has been a mess but the engine is great... right ?
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Post by biggydx on May 12, 2019 4:53:48 GMT
Frostbite is not so good for faces imo. At least not what I've seen from Bioware. There's some degree of plastic or clay face going on. There is something off in general. Very colorful environments that can look stunning but it's all so... smooth? It was OK for a fantasy game like DAI but it's too clean a look for my liking. I like faces better in pretty much any other engine even if the animations aren't always the best. I prefer slightly frozen faces but a realistic look to over-animated clay faces. And when it comes to post-processing nothing beats the magic that Sony is currently working with their ICE team for first party games. I thought RDR2 looked this good because of Rock Star but then I saw gameplay of Days Gone and these two games look very similar.The way they do weather and color grading at Sony is damn impressive. Best on the market imo. Games like Far Cry 5 look ugly as fuck in comparison. Washed out colors, just bad.
Post-processing matters way more than textures for a pleasing look. I couldn't get Skyrirm on PC with a great ENB to look as good as RDR2 looks. on a fucking console! Anthem imo looks downright ugly to me in comparison. I don't like the colors and rough lighting there at all. RDR2's look is a piece of art.
Sony gives proper tech support to their first party devs. EA can learn a lot from Sony! Give ALL your devs proper Frostbite support if you want them to be able to do good work with the engine! It's not that hard...
Days Gone looks good but the framerate is choppy is hell
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on May 12, 2019 11:44:10 GMT
Found this on youtube about UNREAL Engine 4.......There was a time when I thought the Frostbite engine was vastly superior and the cutting-edge of tech, but after seeing this-- as good as Andromeda, DAI and ATHEM look, I think this demo looks better in terms of realism But Frostbite is great ! No ? I mean every game since BF3 or 4 has been a mess but the engine is great... right ? Don't get me wrong, Frostbite is still a great engine and can render some amazing things (especially environments) but for things like skin, hair, facial features, clothing, bio-mechanical movement etc....I think UNREAL4 might be better from what I have seen.
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Post by tatann on May 12, 2019 12:17:19 GMT
But Frostbite is great ! No ? I mean every game since BF3 or 4 has been a mess but the engine is great... right ? Don't get me wrong, Frostbite is still a great engine and can render some amazing things (especially environments) but for things like skin, hair, facial features, clothing, bio-mechanical movement etc....I think UNREAL4 might be better from what I have seen. You forget about sound and netcode ;-)
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Post by Sartoz on May 12, 2019 13:08:21 GMT
Found this on youtube about UNREAL Engine 4.......There was a time when I thought the Frostbite engine was vastly superior and the cutting-edge of tech, but after seeing this-- as good as Andromeda, DAI and ATHEM look, I think this demo looks better in terms of realism But Frostbite is great ! No ? I mean every game since BF3 or 4 has been a mess but the engine is great... right ?
FB needs a serious upgrade, for RPG games. That ureal engine with ray tracing capabilities demo is awesome.
Unfortunately DA4 will use FB and a live service game to boot.
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Post by leadintea on May 13, 2019 3:51:30 GMT
But Frostbite is great ! No ? I mean every game since BF3 or 4 has been a mess but the engine is great... right ? Don't get me wrong, Frostbite is still a great engine and can render some amazing things (especially environments) but for things like skin, hair, facial features, clothing, bio-mechanical movement etc....I think UNREAL4 might be better from what I have seen. Hair is definitely something Frostbite struggles with, at least from what I've seen in DAI, MEA, and Anthem. Also I dunno whether it's me or not, but enemies in these games tend to look their very far away, like ants, if that makes any sense.
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Post by Pounce de León on May 13, 2019 17:07:30 GMT
Graphical fidelity has often gobbled up more care than gameplay. I'd rather have shitty graphics than bad gameplay when the UI is thought through well. At the current point is hard to spot the difference in graphics fidelity anyway. One more ray traced - I doubt I'd notice that anyway. Stable game. Good performance. Compelling gameplay. Good UI are my major points for games. If story, music, artstyle are good too then is recipe for good success. If not you still can get a good game of the gameplay.
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Post by bizantura on May 14, 2019 12:20:26 GMT
I think Bioware's problem is far greater than Frostbite.
Current Bioware isn't capable of concretizing an idea and bringing it to tangible fruition.
5 years of chaos culminating in a lot of money being wasted and bringing nothing to the table!!!??? Producing such a nothingness is realizable because they are embedded within EA.
Clearly, Bioware isn't the Bioware of yesteryear. Common sense alone demands to close Bioware down.
Personally, I hope they can make Dragon Age 4 because I would like to continue after DAI cliffhanger. However, it won't be a préorder like it used to be. I simply don't trust them delivering anything playable anymore.
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Post by Croatsky on Jun 5, 2019 10:36:30 GMT
Due to lack of support from EA with Frostbite itself, BioWare devs had to figure all of it by themselves. Not entirely true. At least for DAI, DICE gave support, but probably not as much as Bioware needed. And one major obstacle was the time difference of 8 hours between BW office and DICE in Sweden. Hold on, do they not have a division in America( Canada or US) to assist EA's studios? Like that's a abysmal management if there is no such thing, considering all of EA games are on Frostbite and majority of EA studios are in US and Canada.
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Post by Slartibartfast on Jun 5, 2019 18:41:29 GMT
Not entirely true. At least for DAI, DICE gave support, but probably not as much as Bioware needed. And one major obstacle was the time difference of 8 hours between BW office and DICE in Sweden. Hold on, do they not have a division in America( Canada or US) to assist EA's studios? Like that's a abysmal management if there is no such thing, considering all of EA games are on Frostbite and majority of EA studios are in US and Canada. Can't tell how it is now, but the bulk of DICE's development - and then also Frostbite - was located in Sweden at the time. The Frostbite know-how was where it needed to be for Battlefield's sake. And it's not an easy task to transfer such knowledge to another person, especially not if both departments are knee-deep in development. My guess is that EA/DICE were too naive in estimating the amount of support needed to use Frostbite for other games than Battlefield.
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Jun 5, 2019 19:06:00 GMT
proven right and right again?
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