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Post by biggydx on May 1, 2019 0:49:46 GMT
I happened to come across this video analysis of the Frostbite engine, its history at EA, and how the games produced on it ultimately turned out. I know for some the title is click-baity, and for others, they don't believe that Frostbite alone amounted to all the issues BioWare is having; which is pointed out at the beginning of the video. I'm posting this video because I think it paints a pretty clear picture as to why the engine can cause a lot of foundational problems for the studios seeking to work on it.
There's are some interesting quotes in there from several of the developers at BioWare who used Frostbite for DA:I:
My thoughts on Frostbite: I'm sure people who have seen my posts about Frostbite know that I'm pretty well against it being used by the studio. Mandate or not, there's a heavy-handedness in how the engine is pushed on its studios, and I feel as though a lack of consideration was taken when seeking to make usable across all of EA's studios. Do I believe the engine is the sole cause of BioWare's problems? No. I think there are other inherent problems going on in their studio, and its largely a managerial concern. However, I do believe that having to use an engine that bites your hand every step of the way does negatively impact the creative process. Having to put significantly more time into making even the simplest of design features (like an inventory system) probably doesn't do much for developer morale, and likely stifles any significant design choices the studio would like to make.
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Post by clips7 on May 1, 2019 2:27:39 GMT
They should have just stuck with Unreal....
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Finished Dissertation long ago lol. Now happily employed :D
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Post by biggydx on May 1, 2019 2:46:01 GMT
They should have just stuck with Unreal.... I do wonder if EA would have given up the ghost (Frostbite) had BioWare had not signed on to use it. 5% isn't chunk change when you consider how game profits are divided up, but I'd argue the drop in quality in EA's games over the last few years (save for a few notable titles) has likely cost them more than that 5% would have ever amounted to.
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Post by PillarBiter on May 1, 2019 8:15:18 GMT
Mismanagement was bioware’s issue (and has been for a long time). Frostbite is a tool. Tools and people working with tools can be managed.
I didn’t watch the video because youtube ecperts.
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Post by clips7 on May 1, 2019 10:17:00 GMT
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Post by cypherj on May 1, 2019 11:47:31 GMT
I still think it's more bad management. The constant changing of direction, scrapping plans and trying something new is poor management.
Also, if the video is correct they designed tools for DA:I, then scrapped those tools and started form scratch with Andromeda, and then scrapped those tools and started from scratch again on Anthem. So you had an overall lack of direction from management coupled with people having to start from scratch with what was basically a new engine every game.
DA4 will be a good tell tale point. Presumably they would be using the same tools they created for DA:I, and not starting from scratch again. So if they make a quality game in DA4, it's not the engine.
This all completely ignores whether any cross training went on. Did they bring any the developers familiar with Frostbite and have them work with the developers at Bioware? The whole 8 hour time difference thing is a joke. That should not stop anyone from doing what they need to do. Did they give the developers the tools they needed? If not, this is on management, upper and middle.
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Post by tatann on May 1, 2019 11:52:42 GMT
Mismanagement was bioware’s issue (and has been for a long time). Frostbite is a tool. Tools and people working with tools can be managed. I didn’t watch the video because youtube ecperts. OK, I'll get you a good manager and bad tools, and see what great work you can produce ;-)
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Post by Croatsky on May 1, 2019 11:53:21 GMT
No, at the worst issue was EA gave them little support with Frostbite engine as it prioritized assisting the most successful projects like FIFA.
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Post by Croatsky on May 1, 2019 11:54:28 GMT
Mismanagement was bioware’s issue (and has been for a long time). Frostbite is a tool. Tools and people working with tools can be managed. I didn’t watch the video because youtube ecperts. OK, I'll get you a good manager and bad tools, and see what great work you can produce ;-) Buddy, you're skipping a step here. You have to prove Frostbite is a bad tool first.
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Post by Sartoz on May 1, 2019 12:11:17 GMT
Snip DA4 will be a good tell tale point. Presumably they would be using the same tools they created for DA:I, and not starting from scratch again. So if they make a quality game in DA4, it's not the engine. Snip
Nope. The studio indicated they will be using some of the Anthem code base and it will be a live-service game.. Add MP and that sends shivers down my bones.
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Post by cypherj on May 1, 2019 12:30:40 GMT
Snip DA4 will be a good tell tale point. Presumably they would be using the same tools they created for DA:I, and not starting from scratch again. So if they make a quality game in DA4, it's not the engine. Snip
Nope. The studio indicated they will be using some of the Anthem code base and it will be a live-service game.. Add MP and that sends shivers down my bones.
Still the same point. They'll just be using tools they developed for Anthem. Scary as that is. Either way, they shouldn't have to start from scratch like it says they did on every Frostbite game so far.
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Post by tatann on May 1, 2019 12:35:19 GMT
OK, I'll get you a good manager and bad tools, and see what great work you can produce ;-) Buddy, you're skipping a step here. You have to prove Frostbite is a bad tool first. Didn't Bioware already do it ? Can I copy their paper ?
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Post by OdanUrr on May 1, 2019 12:49:29 GMT
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Post by Sondergaard on May 1, 2019 13:18:43 GMT
Exactly. Not a bad tool, just the wrong tool for the job. A screwdriver is great until you need a hammer.
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Post by PillarBiter on May 1, 2019 13:30:21 GMT
Mismanagement was bioware’s issue (and has been for a long time). Frostbite is a tool. Tools and people working with tools can be managed. I didn’t watch the video because youtube ecperts. OK, I'll get you a good manager and bad tools, and see what great work you can produce ;-) My good manager understands the requirements for grostbite and negotiates help for froatbite related issues. I can play this chess game all day.
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Post by Space Cowboy on May 1, 2019 14:00:13 GMT
OK, I'll get you a good manager and bad tools, and see what great work you can produce ;-) My good manager understands the requirements for grostbite and negotiates help for froatbite related issues. I can play this chess game all day. I asked my manager for a screw driver and he got me a hammer. It’s not a bad tool, just a wrong tool. 
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 1, 2019 14:36:50 GMT
Don't repeat a clickbaity title as the thread title, if you really think it's clickbaity. Sometimes your OP titles come across as drama-inducing. Is that intentional? As for Frostbite vs. Bioware, I've already made my opinion clear In Defense Of Frostbite.
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Post by Superhik on May 1, 2019 15:55:44 GMT
Sheer irony is that Bioware had one of the best engines, all around, when it comes to making rpgs and easy to implement content. It was technically outdated at the time, but imagine if they continued with Aurora ( Neverwinter Nights)? Not even Bethesda games come close to amount of content you would have with a single game.
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Post by Superhik on May 1, 2019 15:58:36 GMT
OK, I'll get you a good manager and bad tools, and see what great work you can produce ;-) Buddy, you're skipping a step here. You have to prove Frostbite is a bad tool first. Unless they're lying for some reason, there are a ton of statements from former/current Bioware employees on how difficult it is to work on ( Even Amy Hanning commented on this). It's pretty common knowledge it's a very specialized engine ( designed for FPS).
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Post by Slartibartfast on May 1, 2019 17:33:49 GMT
Sheer irony is that Bioware had one of the best engines, all around, when it comes to making rpgs and easy to implement content. It was technically outdated at the time, but imagine if they continued with Aurora ( Neverwinter Nights)? Not even Bethesda games come close to amount of content you would have with a single game. Nah, I think Aurora had run its course. Not only technically outdated, I believe it was too limited to make the more modern Action-RPGs we're talking about here. The Witcher 1 was made using a heavily modified Aurora engine, and even though it worked OK-ish, the fact that CDPR decided to make their own for TW2 tells us enough.
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Post by aglomeracja on May 1, 2019 18:23:48 GMT
Sheer irony is that Bioware had one of the best engines, all around, when it comes to making rpgs and easy to implement content. It was technically outdated at the time, but imagine if they continued with Aurora ( Neverwinter Nights)? Not even Bethesda games come close to amount of content you would have with a single game. Nah, I think Aurora had run its course. Not only technically outdated, I believe it was too limited to make the more modern Action-RPGs we're talking about here. The Witcher 1 was made using a heavily modified Aurora engine, and even though it worked OK-ish, the fact that CDPR decided to make their own for TW2 tells us enough. According to this wikipedia article Bioware used to make a new version of their engine pretty much with every new release. DAO and DA2 were the last of Bioware game using updated Aurora engine while MET was made using Unreal Engine 3.
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Post by tatann on May 1, 2019 18:41:41 GMT
Buddy, you're skipping a step here. You have to prove Frostbite is a bad tool first. Unless they're lying for some reason, there are a ton of statements from former/current Bioware employees on how difficult it is to work on ( Even Amy Hanning commented on this). It's pretty common knowledge it's a very specialized engine ( designed for FPS).
Don't mind, they don't want to listen, Frostbite is fine, Anthem is fine ;-)
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Post by Slartibartfast on May 1, 2019 19:06:44 GMT
According to this wikipedia article Bioware used to make a new version of their engine pretty much with every new release. DAO and DA2 were the last of Bioware game using updated Aurora engine while MET was made using Unreal Engine 3. OK, I didn't know it was was used as late as DA2. I can still understand the reasoning behind wanting to switch to a newer, internal engine.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 1, 2019 21:05:12 GMT
Buddy, you're skipping a step here. You have to prove Frostbite is a bad tool first. Unless they're lying for some reason, there are a ton of statements from former/current Bioware employees on how difficult it is to work on ( Even Amy Hanning commented on this). It's pretty common knowledge it's a very specialized engine ( designed for FPS).
Those statements don’t prove it’s a bad tool, it proves they were trying to use it for purposes it was not designed for. See hammer vs screwdriver above.
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Post by Superhik on May 1, 2019 23:59:08 GMT
Unless they're lying for some reason, there are a ton of statements from former/current Bioware employees on how difficult it is to work on ( Even Amy Hanning commented on this). It's pretty common knowledge it's a very specialized engine ( designed for FPS).
Those statements don’t prove it’s a bad tool, it proves they were trying to use it for purposes it was not designed for. See hammer vs screwdriver above. Some are better at some things than others, unless you're redesigning the whole thing. ( so you might as well make one from ground up) Bethesda still uses that rusty heap of 'Bryo because it has a very good character editor, data structure, and easy to implement content.
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