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Post by midnight tea on Aug 30, 2019 21:35:16 GMT
Ooof... I know this is not a comfortable topic, but since it's DA4-related I think it's worth bringing up - we don't know which parts of DA4 project survived the reboot or how they've changed during typical game development process, but I think it's safe to say that whatever Alexis Kennedy has written will likely not be featured in the finished product.
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Post by Gwydden on Aug 30, 2019 21:41:59 GMT
Ooof... I know this is not a comfortable topic, but since it's DA4-related I think it's worth bringing up - we don't know which parts of DA4 project survived the reboot or how they've changed during typical game development process, but I think it's safe to say that whatever Alexis Kennedy has written will likely not be featured in the finished product. Probably it was already scrapped when development was rebooted, which is for the better now.
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 30, 2019 21:57:57 GMT
Ooof... I know this is not a comfortable topic, but since it's DA4-related I think it's worth bringing up - we don't know which parts of DA4 project survived the reboot or how they've changed during typical game development process, but I think it's safe to say that whatever Alexis Kennedy has written will likely not be featured in the finished product. Probably it was already scrapped when development was rebooted, which is for the better now. We can't tell what was scrapped and what was not - for all we know, Morrison may be 95% what was planned for Joplin. Or some other percentage. Regardless, IF that part has survived past hurdles, it's probably unlikely it survived after whenever the news broke in Bioware (I suspect it was earlier than it was for the wider public, judging on some prominent DA devs' decisive response).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 22:39:30 GMT
Probably it was already scrapped when development was rebooted, which is for the better now. We can't tell what was scrapped and what was not - for all we know, Morrison may be 95% what was planned for Joplin. Or some other percentage. Regardless, IF that part has survived past hurdles, it's probably unlikely it survived after whenever the news broke in Bioware (I suspect it was earlier than it was for the wider public, judging on some prominent DA devs' decisive response). Yeah, even Mike Laidlaw made a point of speaking up about him though he's not with BW anymore, and I think he was the one who hired AK for the work. Now I'm curious if they knew using him could blow up in their faces at any time.
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 30, 2019 23:14:38 GMT
We can't tell what was scrapped and what was not - for all we know, Morrison may be 95% what was planned for Joplin. Or some other percentage. Regardless, IF that part has survived past hurdles, it's probably unlikely it survived after whenever the news broke in Bioware (I suspect it was earlier than it was for the wider public, judging on some prominent DA devs' decisive response). Yeah, even Mike Laidlaw made a point of speaking up about him though he's not with BW anymore, and I think he was the one who hired AK for the work. Now I'm curious if they knew using him could blow up in their faces at any time. I don't know if we can tell when they've found or how much they have known/was known at a time they hired him. But there were periods when some devs seemed agitated on twitter without telling wider public what that was about, so we were left guessing - it's probable that one of the times it happened was when they've found out. Anyway, it's sad that it is what it appears to be. And I know this is secondary to importance of taking steps to deal with toxicity within the industry, but I do wonder whether the section AK worked on may have been transferred to someone else, IF it survived all else. Perhaps Failbetter was hired once again? AK left the studio in '16 so they're not associated with him anymore. Whether for DA4 or not, AAA devs collaborating with indies for a big project is a thing I hope to see more in the future.
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Post by melbella on Aug 31, 2019 0:27:47 GMT
Ooof... I know this is not a comfortable topic, but since it's DA4-related I think it's worth bringing up - we don't know which parts of DA4 project survived the reboot or how they've changed during typical game development process, but I think it's safe to say that whatever Alexis Kennedy has written will likely not be featured in the finished product.
You are mentioning this literally out of nowhere. What prompted you to bring it up and what are you basing your "it's safe to say" conclusion on?
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Aug 31, 2019 1:10:59 GMT
Ooof... I know this is not a comfortable topic, but since it's DA4-related I think it's worth bringing up - we don't know which parts of DA4 project survived the reboot or how they've changed during typical game development process, but I think it's safe to say that whatever Alexis Kennedy has written will likely not be featured in the finished product.
You are mentioning this literally out of nowhere. What prompted you to bring it up and what are you basing your "it's safe to say" conclusion on?
I'm not 100% sure what you're asking, but going with the assumption that you don't hang out on Twitter - this week, the gaming industry has been having a #metoo moment. Multiple women (and a few men) in the gaming industry have written long, detailed threads and blog posts with allegations of abusive and predatory behaviour from some prominent men in the industry (some even with screenshots of private message conversations and emails from the men in question to back them up). Alexis Kennedy is one of the men who has been 'outed' as predatory by multiple women. So, it's kind of big in the twitter-verse at the moment. That's probably why midnight tea brought it up seemingly out of the blue here. As for whatever he was working on for #DreadWolfRises, it very likely did get cut already when they 'rebooted' what they're working on.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 31, 2019 1:16:51 GMT
Its really much ado about nothing...probably. He was hired on just as a contract worker to flesh out a bit of the background lore maybe a faction. He wasn't on staff and really wasn't an employee. Whether or not whatever he came up with makes it into the DA4...I doubt we'll ever fully know. They'll probably just repurpose what he came up with and work it around so they can slap someone else's name on it and that will be the end of it.
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Post by melbella on Aug 31, 2019 1:24:33 GMT
So, it's kind of big in the twitter-verse at the moment. That's probably why midnight tea brought it up seemingly out of the blue here.
You're right.... I don't hang out on Twitter so bringing it here with no context was out of the blue.
Thanks for explaining.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Aug 31, 2019 1:26:27 GMT
So, it's kind of big in the twitter-verse at the moment. That's probably why midnight tea brought it up seemingly out of the blue here.
You're right.... I don't hang out on Twitter so bringing it here with no context was out of the blue.
Thanks for explaining.
You're welcome!
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 31, 2019 1:59:53 GMT
Its really much ado about nothing...probably. He was hired on just as a contract worker to flesh out a bit of the background lore maybe a faction. He wasn't on staff and really wasn't an employee. Whether or not whatever he came up with makes it into the DA4...I doubt we'll ever fully know. They'll probably just repurpose what he came up with and work it around so they can slap someone else's name on it and that will be the end of it. I doubt that they gave him stuff that is absolutely crucial to the story, but at the same time they probably wouldn’t be giving him something insignificant - what would be the purpose of hiring a prominent indie if he was just supposed to flesh things out a little bit? Well, whatever it was, the ‘it was probably scrapped after reboot’ may not be a correct answer, not just because we can’t really tell how much the reboot affected the story, but because we don’t even know when allegations surfaced that BW became aware of. Maybe it was a done deal some time before or things were already handed to someone else a while ago.
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Post by Grog Muffins on Aug 31, 2019 5:37:08 GMT
Would a reboot prompt a reboot of story and themes, though? Mechanics, I get, but story? Maybe they didn't have that much already written for the game, only certain parts, Kennedy's part among them considering he was a freelancer and probably had limited availability. Ooor, they might still implement stuff from the previous iteration into the new one like they implemented story beats and themes from the Exalted March cancelled DLC into DAI.
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 31, 2019 10:45:38 GMT
Would a reboot prompt a reboot of story and themes, though? Mechanics, I get, but story? Maybe they didn't have that much already written for the game, only certain parts, Kennedy's part among them considering he was a freelancer and probably had limited availability. Ooor, they might still implement stuff from the previous iteration into the new one like they implemented story beats and themes from the Exalted March cancelled DLC into DAI. Honesty, at this point we can't tell. What we know from Jason Schreier's article is that the game will now be using Anthem's codebase and that the funding for the game was reset (whatever money was spent prior to reboot won't be counted in, IRC). Story-wise however... it was apparent that Schreier has info from prior to the reboot and knows little about Morrison itself. In fact, the details of story he had appear to be from early stages of development. He himself said that all he's reported on could've changed drastically even during uninterrupted development - so, in reality, finished Joplin may have not resembled reported on Joplin without any reboot, lol. And yea, as mentioned, we have no idea how much Joplin lives in Morrison or what the reboot itself may have done to the story. Game dev is complicated. Creating stories in itself is complicated. Maybe the reboot has allowed them to reach for earlier concepts or do things they thought they may have to cut from Joplin. We also don't know how current development will impact the story/gameplay - we know that delay of DAI has allowed them to add multiple races for PC and two romances. We also know that 'Here Lies The Abyss' was planned to be a section of Deep Roads and we were supposed to meet the Architect, but ultimately they didn't like what they came up with originally and changed that section entirely. So it's anyone's guess what we're going to get in the end. But I personally think that Morrison didn't stray that far from Joplin in terms of themes or story outline (it's in the codename itself, plus what we can pick up from recently published auxiliary materials). I also don't think they'd give their guest writer a portion of the story that was at a high risk of cutting even that early in development, so my guess would be that whatever section was written by AK may be at least partially re-purposed rather than wholly eliminated.
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Post by Heimdall on Aug 31, 2019 11:14:11 GMT
Okay, a probably controversial question:
Even if all this is true and his work is still in DA4 (a lot of assumptions in that last part), should it be removed? Future employers should reconsider hiring certainly, but I’m of the opinion that sometimes art can be taken separate from the artist as long as it isn’t objectionable in and of itself. If he produced quality work and BioWare decides to keep it (and I think it entirely likely that they took what he made and repurposed and modified it anyway by this point), I don’t think that would be a problem. They already paid for his labor anyway.
They can strip his name from the credits though.
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Aug 31, 2019 11:22:25 GMT
Okay, a probably controversial question: Even if all this is true and his work is still in DA4 (a lot of assumptions in that last part), should it be removed? I don't think it really matters - it's been long enough since he worked on whatever the project has turned into that whatever he did has probably been through many edits and changes anyway. The important part is BioWare never hire him again. (Or Alex Hollowka, or Jeremy Soule, or Luc Shelton, or Michael Antonov, or Marc Ten Bosch, or Vlad Micu ...)
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 31, 2019 12:58:18 GMT
Okay, a probably controversial question: Even if all this is true and his work is still in DA4 (a lot of assumptions in that last part), should it be removed? Future employers should reconsider hiring certainly, but I’m of the opinion that sometimes art can be taken separate from the artist as long as it isn’t objectionable in and of itself. If he produced quality work and BioWare decides to keep it (and I think it entirely likely that they took what he made and repurposed and modified it anyway by this point), I don’t think that would be a problem. They already paid for his labor anyway. They can strip his name from the credits though. I wouldn't be surprised if they've had it in contract that they can do with these story sections whatever they want. But I don't think it's a good idea to leave anything that would resemble the work of AK in the text - it would look too much like endorsement. Which is why I think it may have been a good idea to hire folks like Failbetter in his stead, IF there is still part of DA that they'd like to be written by someone else, maybe in similar style. After all, they still operate within similar style of storytelling/aesthetic and BW appears to be in good standing with the studio - many prominent devs were quick to retweet Failbetter's response to allegations and one of the victims is still with them as editor/writer. I think it would've been a decent recourse, especially that Failbetter itself could use some help these days. As for 'separating artist from the art' - that's a longer discussion to be had, but I think I'm not the only one who feels that for too long this was an excuse used to do little about problematic part of that artist (or entrepreneur or some other big fish). IMO such behavior is exactly why there's so much toxicity within creative industries and beyond - if people were held more accountable for their actions, instead of their talent being used as a convenient shield (for person in question or for our own comfort), we wouldn't be in a situation where a lot of people we respect for their big or creative endeavors turn out to be line-crossing a-holes and abusers. And that's entirely aside from the fact that 'but their unique talent!' defense has likely blocked the path or outright destroyed no less uniquely talented people or their chance for recognition I think that, especially when it comes to recent cases, there will be time to re-assess their deeds in larger, nuanced discussion about approaching and enjoying stuff that's problematic - because a lot of stuff is problematic in one way or another and we can still enjoy them while recognizing problems within. ...But right here and right now, in current climate, IMO it's not a good idea to just try and do any convenient separating that will ensure that problematic creator in question will reap direct or indirect benefits from continued exposure to their work/contribution. The whole concept of separation as it is usually proposed is weird to me anyway, especially as someone who creates stuff herself. Like... you can't separate that sh*t from me - it IS a part of me, WTH The whole concept of separation basically cancels the idea of self-expression, because if art can be separated from the artist then what do we need artists for anyway? I mean, they did hire Kennedy specifically because they liked his work, didn't they? I think most people operate like this as well, even if on subconscious level. Creative works are oftentimes looked upon differently than many different products because they are created to impact people emotionally (although we've seen similar excuses to people on different fields as well). There's a reason why there's a terrible amount of discomfort or kneejerk reactions when we find out that what we like was created by someone who perhaps doesn't deserve to be liked/liked as much - because, ultimately, the whole separation thing is impossible. So, IMO, even exposure that brings recognition is still a form of reward for the perpetrator (especially that exposure to things that are emotionally-impactful or simply skillful can ply enough people into softening on creator or their misdeeds) and should be minimized, especially if the case is still very recent. As for wider discussion, I agree with this video:
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Post by parsival on Aug 31, 2019 16:49:50 GMT
I don't see that Alexis Kennedy has been accused of any crimes. Even if he was, I'd have thought that the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should stand. Certainly, his work should be credited, regardless, if it is used.
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 31, 2019 17:59:48 GMT
I don't see that Alexis Kennedy has been accused of any crimes. Even if he was, I'd have thought that the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should stand. Certainly, his work should be credited, regardless, if it is used. When did movements as #metoo became just about crimes and not also abusive behavior and crossing boundaries that contribute to toxicity within industry and may not result with formal accusations and sentencing, but at least carries consequences in professional life? People have been fired or shunned for lesser things and in this case we don't just have accusations of predatory behavior towards multiple women, but mobbing and professional retaliation. And I'm fairly sure Bioware may know about more than current accusers who have decided to go public. Some did imply that they do know more, also in case of other people within the industry.
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Post by Gwydden on Aug 31, 2019 18:36:47 GMT
Even if he was, I'd have thought that the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should stand. He's not being taken to court (yet). The law cannot punish him without due process, yes, but employers are individuals, and individuals are free to draw their own conclusions and act accordingly. In light of what has surfaced, it would be morally irresponsible of Bioware or anyone else to endorse him, even implicitly.
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Post by Heimdall on Aug 31, 2019 18:37:31 GMT
As for 'separating artist from the art' - that's a longer discussion to be had, but I think I'm not the only one who feels that for too long this was an excuse used to do little about problematic part of that artist (or entrepreneur or some other big fish). IMO such behavior is exactly why there's so much toxicity within creative industries and beyond - if people were held more accountable for their actions, instead of their talent being used as a convenient shield (for the artist or for our own comfort), we wouldn't be in a situation where a lot of people we respect for their big or creative endeavors would turn out to line-crossing a-holes and abusers. And that's entirely aside from the fact that 'but their unique talent!' defense has likely blocked the path or destroyed no less uniquely talented people I think that, especially when it comes to recent cases, there will be time to re-assess their deeds in larger, nuanced discussion about approaching and enjoying stuff that's problematic - because a lot of stuff is problematic in one way or another and we can still enjoy them while recognizing problems within. ...But right here and right now, in current climate, it's not a good idea to just try and do any convenient separating that will ensure that problematic creator in question will reap direct or indirect benefits from continued exposure to their work/contribution. The whole concept of separation as it is usually proposed is weird for me anyway, especially as someone who creates herself. Like... you can't separate that sh*t from me - it IS a part of me, WTH The whole concept of separation basically cancels the idea of self-expression, because if art can be separated from the artist then what do we need artists for anyway? I mean, they did hire Kennedy specifically because they liked his work, didn't they? Well I disagree, but I won’t get into the bigger discussion here. Suffice to say that I don’t think the worst aspects of an artist are always on display in their work and the work must be evaluated independently to determine whether it is. You can invoke the subconscious all day but in the end if it isn’t in the text it isn’t in the text. The issue of supporting the man himself through pay or exposure holds a lot more water with me (which is why I don’t think this issue is much to worry about with dead authors), but in this case its a bit of a non-issue as he was already paid and realistically how many people are even aware of the lead writers of their video games let alone the contract worker who worked on one small part years ago. They aren’t even obliged to give him a credit. That’s what I suspect BioWare will do, use his work in whatever modified form it currently exists and scrub his name from everything they can.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 31, 2019 18:48:27 GMT
Kind of funny that this very issue has come up in Mass Effect already. Because it applies to other industries then just at. Malone (that was his name right?) Conducted horrible medical experiments on Krogan but yet his research formed the basis for the cure to the genophage. As Shepard we had the choice on whether or not to keep the data... and my Shepard kept the data. It wasn't the researches fault on how it was created.
Same applies to almost everything else, as horrible as it may sound. Do we just ignore Martin Luther despite some of his wisdom and contributions to Western Civilization because of his anti semitism? Do we stop driving Fords because of Henry Ford's self same problem?
While I certainly cannot blame someone for answering differently...these are complex issues and we must be free to interact with others how we see fit...the quality ofv the work/ product is often unrelated to the quality of the person. Especially in this case when there are likely hundreds of people working on DA4.
Edit: Actually I just remembered the example I WANTED to use. Say someone finds a cure for cancer, a magic shot that can solve all our problems with no I'll side effects. Later we find out that guy raped someone...do we really stop taking the cure?
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 31, 2019 20:02:18 GMT
Well I disagree, but I won’t get into the bigger discussion here. Suffice to say that I don’t think the worst aspects of an artist are always on display in their work and the work must be evaluated independently to determine whether it is. You can invoke the subconscious all day but in the end if it isn’t in the text it isn’t in the text. The issue of supporting the man himself through pay or exposure holds a lot more water with me (which is why I don’t think this issue is much to worry about with dead authors), but in this case its a bit of a non-issue as he was already paid and realistically how many people are even aware of the lead writers of their video games let alone the contract worker who worked on one small part years ago. That’s what I suspect BioWare will do, use his work in whatever modified form it currently exists and scrub his name from everything they can. Aside from me never saying or even implying anything about "the worst aspects of the artists being always on display in their work" (please point me to where you think I did?) this isn't about what is being in text or what is subconscious - this is predominantly about audience's reception and relationship with such art/artist. If you know about artist being an a-hole then that informs you about something about the text, doesn't it? Even if the text itself presents something entirely opposite to what was revealed about the author. In fact, oftentimes this only makes things worse. Anyway - gamers overall may not care about whatever small input guest writers may have left but the fact remains that Kennedy collaborating with Bioware on writing part of next DA was basically the first solid news we've learned about DA after they began production on it, and a point of positive publicity for both BW and AK. So there will be people curious about what has happened to his contributions, even if they will indeed scrub all traces of collaboration.
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 31, 2019 20:41:45 GMT
Kind of funny that this very issue has come up in Mass Effect already. Because it applies to other industries then just at. Malone (that was his name right?) Conducted horrible medical experiments on Krogan but yet his research formed the basis for the cure to the genophage. As Shepard we had the choice on whether or not to keep the data... and my Shepard kept the data. It wasn't the researches fault on how it was created. Same applies to almost everything else, as horrible as it may sound. Do we just ignore Martin Luther despite some of his wisdom and contributions to Western Civilization because of his anti semitism? Do we stop driving Fords because of Henry Ford's self same problem? While I certainly cannot blame someone for answering differently...these are complex issues and we must be free to interact with others how we see fit...the quality ofv the work/ product is often unrelated to the quality of the person. Especially in this case when there are likely hundreds of people working on DA4. Edit: Actually I just remembered the example I WANTED to use. Say someone finds a cure for cancer, a magic shot that can solve all our problems with no I'll side effects. Later we find out that guy raped someone...do we really stop taking the cure? Um... are we really going to compare these recent scandals to, say, to MLK and his contributions to Western Civilization despite his vices? Or art/art gigs to cancer-curing shot invented by someone terrible? Like, I'm an artist and I love art, but I urge to abstain from putting it on pedestal to a point that it's comparable with life-saving cure. This is how many people in entertainment industry got away with horrible stuff. Because art=good, and if art is good then those who have created it can't be THAT bad, ey? *wink, wink* There's value, even necessity, in seeing both the good and bad in things, events and people (especially that more often than not there's always some bad coming with the good), but this is not an approach that can be shrunk and applied, context-less, to anyone who did something wrong, but also happens to do something a lot of people like.These are not the same things. I mean, we maybe may talk about guys who had a profound effect on culture or society in large scale, like Picasso maybe, in similar way we can talk about MLK or Gandhi, but I think we can all agree that none of creators that were recently accused of misdeeds come close to those historic figures, right? In fact, when it comes to effect on culture the thing that is so upsetting about Kennedy is that reports of abuse and harassment deeply question not just some themes in his art, but his input in bettering the industry/world for vulnerable minorities. Like... he did the very opposite And he lives, here and now, and benefits from people liking his art, but may want to ignore his vices because they like his art. Like... you may not want to stop taking the cure for cancer, but are you going to ignore that the inventor did something horrible because he did that one thing that can be good?? I mean, never mind that the cancer cure ain't exactly the same as the work of art (or activism, for that matter). While we may ponder the author's intent behind even most mundane - however revolutionary - things, we wouldn't interact with them like we do with cultural artifacts, which makes a world of difference.
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Post by parsival on Aug 31, 2019 20:56:43 GMT
Even if he was, I'd have thought that the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should stand. He's not being taken to court (yet). The law cannot punish him without due process, yes, but employers are individuals, and individuals are free to draw their own conclusions and act accordingly. In light of what has surfaced, it would be morally irresponsible of Bioware or anyone else to endorse him, even implicitly. 'What has surfaced' are unproven accusations of what sounds like possibly unprofessional conduct. What is morally irresponsible is condemning someone without any sort of investigation into the facts. Witch hunts are not a good thing.
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by githcheater on Aug 31, 2019 20:57:40 GMT
Should I shred my Gary Glitter CD?
Fuck no ...
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