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Post by alanc9 on Sept 2, 2019 17:47:07 GMT
So what is it about? For those of us who don't follow social media, nor no who this person is? Thinly-veiled agenda pushing against a perceived wrong-doer. I expect the anti-sjw brigade to show up soon to spew their bullshit in turn. Most of them got butthurt when the political thread got closed tho. What's being veiled? I thought the agenda was right out in the open: This conduct is intolerable, and people who practice it should have no place in the industry. Or really, any industry.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 2, 2019 17:51:26 GMT
So what is it about? For those of us who don't follow social media, nor no who this person is? Thinly-veiled agenda pushing against a perceived wrong-doer. I expect the anti-sjw brigade to show up soon to spew their bullshit in turn. Most of them got butthurt when the political thread got closed tho. Huh... I wonder if you would say the same of current pedophilia scandal in Catholic Church in my country? The same process happened. People began going public. "Named and shamed" via personal and public media channels to "push thinly-veiled agenda" of getting some justice and warning people that not an insignificant number of respected individuals can hurt their kids with little to no repercussions. Legal and Church authorities have been contacted about this for decades. Not much of substance happened, because of local power dynamics between the Church and state. It's only public outrage - the 'mob justice' as you call it - that is now allowing to administer at least some accountability and change things in the long run.
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Post by midnightwolf on Sept 2, 2019 17:54:49 GMT
Thinly-veiled agenda pushing against a perceived wrong-doer. I expect the anti-sjw brigade to show up soon to spew their bullshit in turn. Most of them got butthurt when the political thread got closed tho. Huh... I wounder if you would say the same of current pedophilia scandal in Catholic Church in my country? The same process happened. People began going public. "Named and shamed" via personal and public media channels to "push thinly-veiled agenda" of getting some justice and warning people that not an insignificant number of respected individuals can hurt their kids with little to no repercussions. Legal and Church authorities have been contacted about this for decades. Not much of substance happened, because of local power dynamics between the Church and state. It's only public outrage - the 'mob justice' as you call it - that is now allowing to administer at least some accountability and change things in the long run. I feel you on this on a personal level.
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Post by Reznore on Sept 2, 2019 18:00:20 GMT
Huh... I wounder if you would say the same of current pedophilia scandal in Catholic Church in my country? The same process happened. People began going public. "Named and shamed" via personal and public media channels to "push thinly-veiled agenda" of getting some justice and warning people that not an insignificant number of respected individuals can hurt their kids with little to no repercussions. Legal and Church authorities have been contacted about this for decades. Not much of substance happened, because of local power dynamics between the Church and state. It's only public outrage - the 'mob justice' as you call it - that is now allowing to administer at least some accountability and change things in the long run. The same question might be raised with the Epstein business. Some investigation has been directly shut down in my country. So yeah at one point if justice aren't working properly, and we can't even defend kids...what to do? Just sit and wait? I don't have any answers and I can't say I like the situation very much.
Same with the old Jimmy Savile case. Everybody knew, no one stopped the pedo.
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 2, 2019 18:03:21 GMT
Thinly-veiled agenda pushing against a perceived wrong-doer. I expect the anti-sjw brigade to show up soon to spew their bullshit in turn. Most of them got butthurt when the political thread got closed tho. Huh... I wounder if you would say the same of current pedophilia scandal in Catholic Church in my country? The same process happened. People began going public. "Named and shamed" via personal and public media channels to "push thinly-veiled agenda" of getting some justice and warning people that not an insignificant number of respected individuals can hurt their kids with little to no repercussions. Legal and Church authorities have been contacted about this for decades. Not much of substance happened, because of local power dynamics between the Church and state. It's only public outrage - the 'mob justice' as you call it - that is now allowing to administer at least some accountability and change things in the long run. The church is an institution with problems festering at its foundation. Kennedy is an individual. Last I checked trial and proper prosecution is still the way to go there. You may argue this case was of public interest but I deny. And it's not our job to find ouit neither. Nor any mob's.
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Post by midnightwolf on Sept 2, 2019 18:06:07 GMT
Huh... I wounder if you would say the same of current pedophilia scandal in Catholic Church in my country? The same process happened. People began going public. "Named and shamed" via personal and public media channels to "push thinly-veiled agenda" of getting some justice and warning people that not an insignificant number of respected individuals can hurt their kids with little to no repercussions. Legal and Church authorities have been contacted about this for decades. Not much of substance happened, because of local power dynamics between the Church and state. It's only public outrage - the 'mob justice' as you call it - that is now allowing to administer at least some accountability and change things in the long run. The same question might be raised with the Epstein business. Some investigation has been directly shut down in my country. So yeah at one point if justice aren't working properly, and we can't even defend kids...what to do? Just sit and wait? I don't have any answers and I can't say I like the situation very much.
Same with the old Jimmy Savile case. Everybody knew, no one stopped the pedo.
I know this is isn't mine to answer but , NO! I would kill for my Daughters. No matter the threat.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 2, 2019 18:08:37 GMT
Huh... I wounder if you would say the same of current pedophilia scandal in Catholic Church in my country? The same process happened. People began going public. "Named and shamed" via personal and public media channels to "push thinly-veiled agenda" of getting some justice and warning people that not an insignificant number of respected individuals can hurt their kids with little to no repercussions. Legal and Church authorities have been contacted about this for decades. Not much of substance happened, because of local power dynamics between the Church and state. It's only public outrage - the 'mob justice' as you call it - that is now allowing to administer at least some accountability and change things in the long run. I feel you on this on a personal level. It's tragic and upsetting to hear about any experience like this and all the broken trust I am fortunate that I personally didn't experience anything of caliber of people hurt by those a-holes... but I know enough to deeply empathize with victims and their struggles to find justice/resolution.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 2, 2019 18:26:13 GMT
Huh... I wounder if you would say the same of current pedophilia scandal in Catholic Church in my country? The same process happened. People began going public. "Named and shamed" via personal and public media channels to "push thinly-veiled agenda" of getting some justice and warning people that not an insignificant number of respected individuals can hurt their kids with little to no repercussions. Legal and Church authorities have been contacted about this for decades. Not much of substance happened, because of local power dynamics between the Church and state. It's only public outrage - the 'mob justice' as you call it - that is now allowing to administer at least some accountability and change things in the long run. The church is an institution with problems festering at its foundation. Kennedy is an individual. Last I checked trial and proper prosecution is still the way to go there. You may argue this case was of public interest but I deny. And it's not our job to find ouit neither. Nor any mob's. Yes, it IS our job, because ultimately it's the "mob" that decides what is acceptable or not. Kennedy is part of an industry with many problems festering at its foundation and he appears to have used his position to keep perpetrating those problems. It's not that different from the Church. I mean... what do you think happened that has brought attention to problems in the institution itself? Individuals were outed. Many of them. Like in case of recent scandals within the gaming industry. Kennedy wasn't the only one that was recently outed and it's not like it was just one girl who accused him, with no corroborating witnesses. According to what was written it seems that Failbetter knows about more than those two and protected more women from Kennedy. It may even be ultimately one of the main reasons he's left the company. But outside of that company what can be done? According to what others have written the dude just kept preying on young women, because his reputation was untarnished among wider public (even if it wasn't among the devs). It's hard to think of a solution to that other than indeed warn the public.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 2, 2019 18:45:36 GMT
Huh... I wounder if you would say the same of current pedophilia scandal in Catholic Church in my country? The same process happened. People began going public. "Named and shamed" via personal and public media channels to "push thinly-veiled agenda" of getting some justice and warning people that not an insignificant number of respected individuals can hurt their kids with little to no repercussions. Legal and Church authorities have been contacted about this for decades. Not much of substance happened, because of local power dynamics between the Church and state. It's only public outrage - the 'mob justice' as you call it - that is now allowing to administer at least some accountability and change things in the long run. The same question might be raised with the Epstein business. Some investigation has been directly shut down in my country. So yeah at one point if justice aren't working properly, and we can't even defend kids...what to do? Just sit and wait? I don't have any answers and I can't say I like the situation very much.
Same with the old Jimmy Savile case. Everybody knew, no one stopped the pedo. Yea I think such scandals touch the wider and more difficult issue of what happens when abuse intersects with power - be it raw power of money or institution or power garnered from respect and admiration. It'll probably never be an issue that ever goes away in fullness because power either corrupts or reveals... and there will always be abusive a-holes that will fall through the cracks and hurt others in one way or another. However I strongly believe that the issue doesn't have to be as widespread as it appears to be, even if it won't be easy to look many ugly things in the face first. And I simply refuse to grow cynical or apathetic about it. We can do better.
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Post by phoray on Sept 2, 2019 18:55:22 GMT
I like the conversation, but it's off topic to what the title was about. Which is whether we should turn up our nose at art that's been touched by the immoral.
Not as interesting, because that's up to people as individuals. Many casual players will buy plenty of work Alexis Kennedy was paid to create never knowing his name.
And how far do we take how decent our games are made? do we know if the work that's farmed out to third parties who themselves may farm out some work don't have the pedos, rapists, and amoral of the world among them?
People won't even bother to check out whether there is ethical palm oil listed among the ingredients clearly listed on their food. People still blindly buy blood diamonds. The consumer is lazy.
And I agree with others that I won't turn down the work of a group made project because there turned out to be one bad apple among them. Especially when the victims may be among that very group.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 2, 2019 20:08:19 GMT
I like the conversation, but it's off topic to what the title was about. Which is whether we should turn up our nose at art that's been touched by the immoral. Not as interesting, because that's up to people as individuals. Many casual players will buy plenty of work Alexis Kennedy was paid to create never knowing his name. And how far do we take how decent our games are made? do we know if the work that's farmed out to third parties who themselves may farm out some work don't have the pedos, rapists, and amoral of the world among them? People won't even bother to check out whether there is ethical palm oil listed among the ingredients clearly listed on their food. People still blindly buy blood diamonds. The consumer is lazy. And I agree with others that I won't turn down the work of a group made project because there turned out to be one bad apple among them. Especially when the victims may be among that very group. The fact that there are multiple problems doesn't mean that we must stack more problems on top of them or just shrug shoulders and continue, because others are stupid and lazy and not much can be done about it. If we thought like that at all times there would be no progress in any social issue, or well - any progress ever, outside one born out of necessity. And it may yet be necessary to tackle those issues anyway, because they are unsustainable in the long run and we're running out of runway already. I may indirectly or to varying extents perpetrate injustice in other areas even if only because we live in systems that makes it difficult to fully abstain from harm. But to change those systems we must tackle problems head on. One at a time if need be (even though IMO many of these things are connected and pulling one thread will start unraveling other ones). Back to topic - I don't think anyone said anything about turning work of a group made project because of one bad apple, or that we should shun Failbetter or Bioware, or DA4 in particular. We don't even know what happened to parts Kennedy worked on and so far it seems that DA devs, specifically those responsible for story elements in game, have publicly denounced him. Also, one bad apple the like of Kennedy likely wouldn't discourage Bioware from seeking guest writers or working with indies on their future AAA projects - question is whether they'll still manage to such a thing for DA4. This is secondary to the whole scandal but it has bummed me out a little bit that we may not see anything there, while I really like the idea of BW collaborating with an indie/guest writers and was very interested with how they'd integrate parts Kennedy wrote with their larger universe. Now, we don't know when exactly Bioware began distancing themselves form AK. I suspect that rumors an allegations reached them earlier and they took action way before news broke for the public. It's possible Failbetter or victims reached out to them or were contacted for testimonials. We can't tell. I just have to wonder if DA4 may still possibly have some other indie's input. It'd be cool if it did. As mentioned before, I think Failbetter itself would be a good fit, especially if BW wanted to venture into certain aesthetic and mood.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 2, 2019 20:57:51 GMT
[ Last I checked trial and proper prosecution is still the way to go there. You may argue this case was of public interest but I deny. And it's not our job to find ouit neither. Nor any mob's. What about bad conduct which isn't currently a criminal matter, or can't be realistically prosecuted? I suppose we could just criminalize more bad conduct. Would that make you happier? I mean, it sounds like you're saying that putting up with people doing stuff like Kennedy did is something we're just going to have to tolerate. Is "suck it up" a fair description of your position?
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Post by boxofscreaming on Sept 2, 2019 21:03:27 GMT
I really miss 2011.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 2, 2019 21:04:42 GMT
@ phoray: I think we more-or-less reached consensus that the work is OK as long as there's nothing wrong with it internally. (Although work created by a bad person should probably face a high level of scrutiny.)
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 2, 2019 21:05:53 GMT
You mean, when we could all pretend that this sort of thing wasn't happening?
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Post by phoray on Sept 2, 2019 22:25:49 GMT
You mean, when we could all pretend that this sort of thing wasn't happening? Probably. Cuz it was happening then. I was watching a Sexual Education orientation required of all incoming students at the University I just started at. According to today's rules, I've been raped three times in my life by three different men who called themselves my boyfriend. According to 2007's rules, maybe not? It's just unsettling, because some of the little mock plays they put on, well one of them, was unsatisfying. Nothing actionable. Chick goes up to room with guy. Guy makes the moves. Chick says no. Guy brushes it off. She practices "verbal defense" and just implies sex can totally happen, only if he washes the shampoo out of his hair that she's allergic to. Guy wanders off to do so, and the Chick runs out of his room. There is nothing to report to the authorities about this scenario. There is just the obvious-to-the-chick direction things would have gone if she hadn't tricked him. All she has with the above scenario is to tell her friends who may tell their friends; this guy didn't take a no. I had to trick him and run away. But that's maybe 10-20 people of your closest pals who then may now know he's a skeevy bastard. That does not protect the incoming freshman, or the off campus lady you never met that went to a party he also goes to from the fact that this man is a predator. Quote from a related Reddit Thread: The women coming forward with this gain very little in the way of positive exposure.
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 2, 2019 22:35:00 GMT
I don't. The job market sucked for me then. As to the topic...no way of really knowing until we see the final product and whether or not Kennedy's name is in the credits. Personally, I wouldn't remove his name. But I know full well they will basically sweep any reference of Kennedy's participation in the games development under the rug, or downplay it completely.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 3, 2019 0:19:03 GMT
Were getting off topic are we?
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Post by Sundance31us on Sept 3, 2019 3:27:41 GMT
Were getting off topic are we? Looks on topic to me.
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Post by Hier0phant on Sept 3, 2019 4:31:40 GMT
This guy rape somebody too?
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Post by SofaJockey on Sept 3, 2019 4:56:15 GMT
Were getting off topic are we? A little perhaps if we're getting into speculation about 'other crimes'. We're dealing with real people's lives here, so unless we have insider knowledge (which I highly suspect we don't) that if the discussion wanders, which inevitably it will, that we gently drift it back to the impact on Dragon Age 4. Thanks very much.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Sept 3, 2019 6:01:29 GMT
So, this seems relevant:
Its the same wave that's swept up Kennedy, right?
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Post by Hier0phant on Sept 3, 2019 6:18:10 GMT
Another male feminist being outed as a rapist.
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Post by helios969 on Sept 3, 2019 8:01:34 GMT
Not surprising but this thread went downhill fast.
I don't know anything about this person so it's hard to comment on specifics. With these sorts of issues if it's one accuser I tend to lean toward the benefit of the doubt, when it's multiple accusers saying similar things...well, where there's smoke, there's fire... What's the real shame is that there are still corporations that enable this sort of behavior...from either gender.
The impact on DA4? It's unlikely we'll ever know.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 3, 2019 16:22:16 GMT
By the time DA4 ships, I doubt anyone will remember or care about this. Kennedy's fate, whatever it is, will be old news.
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