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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 4, 2019 4:17:32 GMT
BioWare had no problems hiring an outspoken homophobe to write side comics for their supposedly LGBT-friendly video games, so I don't see them grappling with any moral qualms about this.
And at this point, what difference does it make? They already paid him, and he already did the "work", whatever it looks like. Whether they use it or not, any damage has already been done.
And given how little we know about what he was actually doing for them, which didn't sound like very much, I doubt we'd be able to discern it while playing the finished product.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 4, 2019 15:40:33 GMT
BioWare had no problems hiring an outspoken homophobe to write side comics for their supposedly LGBT-friendly video games, so I don't see them grappling with any moral qualms about this. And at this point, what difference does it make? They already paid him, and he already did the "work", whatever it looks like. Whether they use it or not, any damage has already been done. And given how little we know about what he was actually doing for them, which didn't sound like very much, I doubt we'd be able to discern it while playing the finished product. You mean when they hired OSC almost a decade ago? I think it can be safely said that times have changed... although that story also is kinda never mentioned ever again in DA universe and OSC was never hired by them as well. So there's some sort of precedent there, I guess.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Sept 4, 2019 21:06:19 GMT
BioWare had no problems hiring an outspoken homophobe to write side comics for their supposedly LGBT-friendly video games, so I don't see them grappling with any moral qualms about this. And at this point, what difference does it make? They already paid him, and he already did the "work", whatever it looks like. Whether they use it or not, any damage has already been done. And given how little we know about what he was actually doing for them, which didn't sound like very much, I doubt we'd be able to discern it while playing the finished product. You mean when they hired OSC almost a decade ago? I think it can be safely said that times have changed... although that story also is kinda never mentioned ever again in DA universe and OSC was never hired by them as well. So there's some sort of precedent there, I guess.
I still would've thrown the comics Card wrote out of canon/continuity because they just plain suck, regardless of Card's sexual politics and/or beliefs.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 4, 2019 21:47:52 GMT
You mean when they hired OSC almost a decade ago? I think it can be safely said that times have changed... although that story also is kinda never mentioned ever again in DA universe and OSC was never hired by them as well. So there's some sort of precedent there, I guess. I still would've thrown the comics Card wrote out of canon/continuity because they just plain suck, regardless of Card's sexual politics and/or beliefs.
Were they ever validated as canon like some other pieces are? (by being mentioned in games or WOT or other auxiliary pieces?)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 4, 2019 21:54:31 GMT
I still would've thrown the comics Card wrote out of canon/continuity because they just plain suck, regardless of Card's sexual politics and/or beliefs.
Were they ever validated as canon like some other pieces are? (by being mentioned in games or WOT or other auxiliary pieces?) No, I believe they are not considered part of the canon.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 4, 2019 22:21:36 GMT
What was so bad about those comics, anyway? OSC always struck me as.... competent, or even good depending on where and what he's up to..
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Sept 4, 2019 22:23:53 GMT
What was so bad about those comics, anyway? OSC always struck me as.... competent, or even good depending on where and what he's up to.. I honestly have no idea what we're even talking about. The only drama I've ever actually noticed while it was happening was Manveer Heir's stupidity. I seem to miss all teh dramaz. Who is OSC and what comics did he/she make?
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Sept 4, 2019 22:42:05 GMT
What was so bad about those comics, anyway? OSC always struck me as.... competent, or even good depending on where and what he's up to.. I honestly have no idea what we're even talking about. The only drama I've ever actually noticed while it was happening was Manveer Heir's stupidity. I seem to miss all teh dramaz. Who is OSC and what comics did he/she make? I'm guessing Orson Scott Card? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orson_Scott_CardSci-Fi writer. Noted anti-gay marriage proponent. I didn't know he'd written for Bioware - but then, I've not read any of the comics they've put out.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 4, 2019 22:45:19 GMT
What was so bad about those comics, anyway? OSC always struck me as.... competent, or even good depending on where and what he's up to.. I honestly have no idea what we're even talking about. The only drama I've ever actually noticed while it was happening was Manveer Heir's stupidity. I seem to miss all teh dramaz. Who is OSC and what comics did he/she make? Orson Scott Card, "Ender's Game" author. And yea, the fact that you haven't heard about this and that it isn't really ever mentioned by Bioware much anywhere gives credence to the idea that they don't really care about those particular comics, regardless of reasons and seem to have little intention to further canonize it in any other subsequent material.
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Post by phoray on Sept 4, 2019 22:45:24 GMT
Who is OSC and what comics did he/she make? I only knew Orson Scott Card for his "Ender" series and don't know about his drama. But here is the info I just found. Dragon Age Comic by OSCA Review describing the Narrative of the comic
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Post by githcheater on Sept 4, 2019 23:50:58 GMT
Excerpt from DA Wiki summary of IDW comic by OSC:
...
"All male mages are gathered and a spell to detect the father of the child is cast upon each of them. After an hour and twelve mages ruled out, Greagoir orders Sadatt to bring Abernath in. As they enter, the spell detects the father.
The Knight-Commander then advises Abernath to confess being the father and in exchange the child will be taken away, but both the parents will live. Abernath reports to Veness that he told the templars that he is the father, and in this way, he saved her life since the truth - that Sadatt was father - would lead to execution. He tells her that he did it out of love and that she will learn to love him one day as well. But Veness cannot accept the fact that her child will have to be taken away, and thus she escapes from the tower, becoming an apostate.
Greagoir orders Sadatt to go after her, as his final test. He hands him Veness's phylactery and orders him to kill her once he captures her."
...
Are Templars supposed to be this evil? I am glad this is not considered as canon. This is not the Gregoir I remember from DAO.
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Post by phoray on Sept 5, 2019 0:12:00 GMT
am glad this is not considered as canon. This is not the Gregoir I remember from DAO Also, judging from Wynne's story, who the father is didn't matter and no one's life was on the line. She just didn't get to keep the kid.
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Sept 5, 2019 0:37:40 GMT
Also, judging from Wynne's story, who the father is didn't matter and no one's life was on the line. She just didn't get to keep the kid. To be fair, there was no mystery about who Rhys's dad was . But that just makes the comic events seem even more wildly out of character for Gregoir. I'm glad we've never seen any reference made to that storyline again and can safely ignore it.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Sept 5, 2019 5:14:16 GMT
"Gleam"? Sending the templar dad out to catch the mage mom *with* her phylactery and they don't just run away together? That seems dumb. A lot about this seems dumb. lol I understand why they never mention it ever.
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Post by ellanathehamster on Sept 21, 2019 18:12:28 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2019 19:00:14 GMT
Thinly-veiled agenda pushing against a perceived wrong-doer. I expect the anti-sjw brigade to show up soon to spew their bullshit in turn. Most of them got butthurt when the political thread got closed tho. Huh... I wonder if you would say the same of current pedophilia scandal in Catholic Church in my country? The same process happened. People began going public. "Named and shamed" via personal and public media channels to "push thinly-veiled agenda" of getting some justice and warning people that not an insignificant number of respected individuals can hurt their kids with little to no repercussions. Legal and Church authorities have been contacted about this for decades. Not much of substance happened, because of local power dynamics between the Church and state. It's only public outrage - the 'mob justice' as you call it - that is now allowing to administer at least some accountability and change things in the long run. ... and what about the damage done by the "court of public opinion" on individuals who have been, in the past, wrongly accused of such things? Are you willing to give license to people to just spout of whatever accusations they can dream up about other individuals they just don't like on social media, to see them spread virally by people who admittedly have no access to the real facts (i.e. you by starting this thread) and then have their employers automatically support the ruination of their careers and livelihood... and then only long after the fact when the courts have finally had a chance to review the case, expect the "victim" of such slander and libel to be able to just easily repair that damage done to them and their loved ones?
Due process is slow and people sometimes feel it is unjust... but it is designed to protect the innocent... and there can be innocent people on both sides of a public issue. Not every Catholic priest accused of being a pedophile has turned out to actually have been one. Not every accused rapist is guilty. Not every accused murderer is guilty... not even every convicted murderer has been guilty, and their cases took decades to be overturned (ref: David Milgaard - a very public Canadian rape and murder case that was overturned). Regardless of how one feels, I can't agree with allowing the "court of public opinion" tp ruin the careers of artistic individuals immediately upon being accused of any sort of misconduct (nomatter how serious the alleged misconduct is). Also, in Canada, there are labor laws that prevent employees from being wrongfully dismissed. Bioware has to also make sure that, whatever they decide to do with this person's work, they do not open themselves up for a future lawsuit from the accused.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 21, 2019 20:43:17 GMT
... and what about the damage done by the "court of public opinion" on individuals who have been, in the past, wrongly accused of such things? Due process is slow and people sometimes feel it is unjust... but it is designed to protect the innocent... and there can be innocent people on both sides of a public issue. Not every Catholic priest accused of being a pedophile has turned out to actually have been one. Not every accused rapist is guilty. Not every accused murderer is guilty... not even every convicted murderer has been guilty, and their cases took decades to be overturned (ref: David Milgaard - a very public Canadian rape and murder case that was overturned). Regardless of how one feels, I can't agree with allowing the "court of public opinion" tp ruin the careers of artistic individuals immediately upon being accused of any sort of misconduct (nomatter how serious the alleged misconduct is). Also, in Canada, there are labor laws that prevent employees from being wrongfully dismissed. Bioware has to also make sure that, whatever they decide to do with this person's work, they do not open themselves up for a future lawsuit from the accused. Are you willing to give license to people to just spout of whatever accusations they can dream up about other individuals they just don't like on social media, to see them spread virally by people who admittedly have no access to the real facts (i.e. you by starting this thread) and then have their employers automatically support the ruination of their careers and livelihood... and then only long after the fact when the courts have finally had a chance to review the case, expect the "victim" of such slander and libel to be able to just easily repair that damage done to them and their loved ones? You mean like many victims who came out consistently being wrongly accused of lying or self-promotion by 'court of public opinion', for example? You realize that I did write before, multiple times, that going public has its issues - it's just that in the current systems we live in this appears to be the thing working best on many occasions. It is in our best interest to build something better, but so far going public consistently gives results that due process frequently doesn't. Ironically, you've responded to a comment describing an issue in which it's 100% certain that due process and legal routes DIDN'T WORK and only going public with it moved public opinion into demanding action. So please - knock strawmans somewhere else and spare me your lectures. You're not talking anything new and I don't think anybody (certainly not me) here said anything about every accusation being valid or accurate or every accused being guilty. Context is key in many of these cases or overall situations - like in the case above: sure, not all accused priests were guilty, but you know what? Enough were guilty for many people to realize that this is a serious, systemic issue, that people's biases have made the life of victims hell for decades while perpetrators went unpunished/free to hurt more people and that certain institutions claiming that these are rare individual cases and that they have been properly resolved are not to be trusted and need to be held to account. This isn't just an issue that can be resolved via due process but a larger societal discussion, where views on certain issues need to shift for law or conduct to follow.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2019 20:54:37 GMT
... and what about the damage done by the "court of public opinion" on individuals who have been, in the past, wrongly accused of such things?
Due process is slow and people sometimes feel it is unjust... but it is designed to protect the innocent... and there can be innocent people on both sides of a public issue. Not every Catholic priest accused of being a pedophile has turned out to actually have been one. Not every accused rapist is guilty. Not every accused murderer is guilty... not even every convicted murderer has been guilty, and their cases took decades to be overturned (ref: David Milgaard - a very public Canadian rape and murder case that was overturned). Regardless of how one feels, I can't agree with allowing the "court of public opinion" tp ruin the careers of artistic individuals immediately upon being accused of any sort of misconduct (nomatter how serious the alleged misconduct is). Also, in Canada, there are labor laws that prevent employees from being wrongfully dismissed. Bioware has to also make sure that, whatever they decide to do with this person's work, they do not open themselves up for a future lawsuit from the accused.
Are you willing to give license to people to just spout of whatever accusations they can dream up about other individuals they just don't like on social media, to see them spread virally by people who admittedly have no access to the real facts (i.e. you by starting this thread) and then have their employers automatically support the ruination of their careers and livelihood... and then only long after the fact when the courts have finally had a chance to review the case, expect the "victim" of such slander and libel to be able to just easily repair that damage done to them and their loved ones?
...You mean like many victims who came out consistently being wrongly accused of lying or self-promotion by 'court of public opinion', for example? You realize that I did write before, multiple times, that going public has its issues - it's just that in the current systems we live in this appears to be the thing working best on many occasions. It is in our best interest to build something better, but so far going public consistently gives results that due process frequently doesn't. Ironically, you've responded to a comment describing an issue in which it's 100% certain that due process and legal routes DIDN'T WORK and only going public with it moved public opinion into demanding action. So please - knock strawmans somewhere else and spare me your lectures. You're not talking anything new and I don't think anybody (certainly not me) here said anything about every accusation being valid or accurate or every accused being guilty. Context is key in many of these cases or overall situations - like in the case above: sure, not all accused priests were guilty, but you know what? Enough were guilty for many people to realize that this is a serious, systemic issue, that people's biases have made the life of victims hell for decades while perpetrators went unpunished/free to hurt more people and the fact that certain institutions claiming that these are rare individual cases and that they have been properly resolved are not to be trusted and need to be held to account. This isn't just an issue that can be resolved via due process but a larger societal discussion, where views on certain issues need to shift for law or conduct to follow. I have not accused anyone of lying, yet you're implying that I have. The allegations may be true and they may be false. We don't know.
In many of the Catholic cases, due process was not attempted. People took their complaints to the Church, not the courts, and the Church responded by moving priests around, which allowed some of them to perpetrate further crimes. Had their first accusers taken it upon themselves to initiate legal investigations, their cases MAY HAVE been handled more expediently than they were and before additional people fell victim. (BTW, this was your straw man, not mine)
Nothing is 100% certain. Sometimes even due process doesn't even work... as in the case of David Milgaard. It's still no excuse to erase the burden of proof being on the person doing the accusing, not the accused.
The problem with the "court of public opinion," particularly now that such opinion can be spread so quickly and with so little actual evidence, is that the damage is done before the question of proof is often even asked. I'm not willing to give people that sort free license to ruin lives. My opinion is that the burden of proving the allegations lies with those accusing the individual involved and, until then, Bioware should act responsibly towards their former contractee within the confines of whatever Canadian laws apply to the handling of that contractee's work... regardless of what the internet fanbase thinks about the matter.
Also, keep in mind, there is also legal means to improve how due process works evidenced by the fact that collection of evidence procedures are continually changing (again ref David Milgaard's case).
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 21, 2019 22:07:22 GMT
...You mean like many victims who came out consistently being wrongly accused of lying or self-promotion by 'court of public opinion', for example? You realize that I did write before, multiple times, that going public has its issues - it's just that in the current systems we live in this appears to be the thing working best on many occasions. It is in our best interest to build something better, but so far going public consistently gives results that due process frequently doesn't. Ironically, you've responded to a comment describing an issue in which it's 100% certain that due process and legal routes DIDN'T WORK and only going public with it moved public opinion into demanding action. So please - knock strawmans somewhere else and spare me your lectures. You're not talking anything new and I don't think anybody (certainly not me) here said anything about every accusation being valid or accurate or every accused being guilty. Context is key in many of these cases or overall situations - like in the case above: sure, not all accused priests were guilty, but you know what? Enough were guilty for many people to realize that this is a serious, systemic issue, that people's biases have made the life of victims hell for decades while perpetrators went unpunished/free to hurt more people and the fact that certain institutions claiming that these are rare individual cases and that they have been properly resolved are not to be trusted and need to be held to account. This isn't just an issue that can be resolved via due process but a larger societal discussion, where views on certain issues need to shift for law or conduct to follow. I have not accused anyone of lying, yet you're implying that I have. The allegations may be true and they may be false. We don't know. In many of the Catholic cases, due process was not attempted. People took their complaints to the Church, not the courts, and the Church responded by moving priests around, which allowed some of them to perpetrate further crimes. Had their first accusers taken it upon themselves to initiate legal investigations, their cases MAY HAVE been handled more expediently than they were and before additional people fell victim.
Nothing is 100% certain. Sometimes even due process doesn't even work... as in the case of David Milgaard. It's still no excuse to erase the burden of proof being on the person doing the accusing, not the accused. The position you're taking automatically assumes that it's the accused that should be given more benefit of the doubt than the accuser. I'm not implying that you assume that anyone is lying - but your current position basically automatically assumes that it's the victims that should be doubted, which is IMO a position that has largely led to the mess we currently have. Too much benefit of doubt for one side, too little for the other. I mean, never mind that in case of David Milgaard there was no victim doing the accusing. The poor woman was murdered - so how did she accuse the guy? Don't you think it's quite inappropriate to compare oftentimes harrowing accounts of living victims to a complete and utter a*hole selling his friend for 2000$ reward and authorities taking this for granted?? (Never mind that in many cases this is about behavior that isn't necessarily criminal, but worth warning against/condemning and avoiding. Basically the only way to do that is being vocal about it.) Also - way to blame the victims, in case of pedophilia cases in the Church. Not only you seem to assume that many of the victims didn't initiate legal routes in many cases, you seem to ignore the environment that oftentimes either made informing authorities difficult, the factors of faith or surrounding community or age of victims, or that many people have trusted that the Church will initiate legal procedures after they give their testimony... only to be betrayed by the institution as well. And that's entirely aside from the fact that, in my country at least, due process is simply corrupt - the Church is too close to administrative bodies and current reigning political party for it to work properly, which is why many people have chosen to speak publicly to shed light on the problem and seek some justice. Not all people live in systems where due process functions as it should, or - if it f-ups - we can trust that it improves by anything other than demanding change via public pressure. Like, we've had similar situation to Milgaard here recently. A girl was raped and murdered and wrong guy was accused - he's spent 18 years in prison, not because 'public opinion' condemned him, but because of lousy investigation. The case got reopened and he got released, but it's only thanks to it being widely publicized that we can demand change and punishment of both the real perpetrators, but also people who had made due process an untrustworthy joke. Why assume that they've made their decision based mostly on what "court of public opinion" thinks about the matter? All we know now is that Bioware currently has no working relationship with AK. We have no reason to assume that AK hasn't been compensated for his work (he's finished working on his DA contribution a while ago) or that Bioware didn't have it in contract that they can do with his work whatever they please for whatever reason, including ones entirely separate from AK's personal conduct. And aside from not knowing whether Kennedy's contributions have even survived typical game development process, we can't really tell what they know and what they don't about recent developments - although suggestions from some devs seem to point on them knowing more than what public currently knows.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2019 22:36:17 GMT
I have not accused anyone of lying, yet you're implying that I have. The allegations may be true and they may be false. We don't know. In many of the Catholic cases, due process was not attempted. People took their complaints to the Church, not the courts, and the Church responded by moving priests around, which allowed some of them to perpetrate further crimes. Had their first accusers taken it upon themselves to initiate legal investigations, their cases MAY HAVE been handled more expediently than they were and before additional people fell victim.
Nothing is 100% certain. Sometimes even due process doesn't even work... as in the case of David Milgaard. It's still no excuse to erase the burden of proof being on the person doing the accusing, not the accused. The position you're taking automatically assumes that it's the accused that should be given more benefit of the doubt than the accuser. I'm not implying that you assume that anyone is lying - but your current position basically automatically assumes that it's the victims that should be doubted, which is IMO a position that has largely led to the mess we currently have. I mean, never mind that in case of David Milgaard there was no victim doing the accusing. The poor woman was murdered - so how did she accuse the guy? Don't you think it's quite inappropriate to compare oftentimes harrowing accounts of living victims to a complete and utter a*hole selling his friend for 2000$ reward and authorities taking this for granted?? (Never mind that in many cases this is about behavior that isn't necessarily criminal, but worth warning against/condemning and avoiding. Basically the only way to do that is being vocal about it.) Also - way to blame the victims, in case of pedophilia cases in the Church. I mean, really? Not only you seem to assume that many of the victims didn't initiate legal routes in many cases, you seem to ignore the environment that oftentimes either made informing authorities difficult, the factors of faith or surrounding community, or that many people have trusted that the Church will initiate legal procedures after they give their testimony... only to be betrayed by the institution as well. And that's entirely aside from the fact that, in my country at least, due process is simply corrupt - the Church is too close to administrative bodies and current reigning political party for it to work properly, which is why many people have finally chose speaking publicly to shed light on the problem and seek some justice. Not all people live in systems where due process functions as it should, or - even if it f-ups - we can trust that it improves by anything other than demanding change via public pressure. Like, we've had similar situation to Milgaard recently too. A girl was raped and murdered and wrong guy was accused - he's spent 18 years in prison, not because 'public opinion' condemned him, but because of lousy investigation. The case got reopened and he got released, but it's only thanks to it being widely publicized that we can demand change and punishment of both the real perpetrators, but also people who had made due process an untrustworthy joke. Why assume that they've made their decision based mostly on what "court of public opinion" thinks about the matter? All we know now is that Bioware currently has no working relationship with AK. We have no reason to assume that AK hasn't been compensated by his work (he's finished working on his DA contributions quite awhile ago) or that Bioware didn't have it in contract that they can do with his work whatever they please for whatever reason, including ones entirely separate from AK's personal conduct. And aside from not knowing whether Kennedy's contributions have even survived typical game development process, we can't really tell what they know and what they don't about recent developments - although suggestions from some devs seem to point on them knowing more than what public currently knows. Burden of proof lies with the accuser not the accused. That's not a "benefit of doubt." It is the accuser's legal responsibility (in Canada at least). The accused does not have to prove his/her professions of innocence. My responsibility (as an uninformed outsider to the facts) is to not accuse either party of lying by passing premature judgment. It is my responsibility to wait until due process is served before forming any opinion as to who is telling the truth and who is not.
I am not "blaming the victim" by asking the victims or anyone else to be responsible for what they actually say.
By saying they should not base their decision on the "court of public opinion" I am not assuming that they have made any decision regarding whether or not to use this individual's work. I'm actually assuming they have not made any decision yet, so why ask me why I'm assuming something I'm obviously not assuming?
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 21, 2019 23:45:01 GMT
Burden of proof lies with the accuser not the accused. That's not a "benefit of doubt." It is the accuser's legal responsibility (in Canada at least). The accused does not have to prove his/her professions of innocence. My responsibility (as an uninformed outsider to the facts) is to not accuse either party of lying by passing premature judgment. It is my responsibility to wait until due process is served before forming any opinion as to who is telling the truth and who is not. Saying that burden of proof lies with the accuser automatically provides the accused the benefit of a doubt. It's not rocket science. Other than that I have some difficulty discussing this complex issue when I see continuous attempts of flattening all the possible takes on cases when there's an accuser and accused to a completely unrealistic "one size fits all" approach. Not all situations are even remotely comparable. We don't always have legal routes in cases of problematic or toxic behavior. The due process doesn't always work or is even applicable. This isn't just about individual cases or who the public believes when it comes to wider discussion about more systemic issues. If you want to withhold your judgement on the matter you are entirely free to do so - I'm definitely not opposed to withholding judgement before getting to know more facts. Thing is, you are clearly judging accusers in AK's case. And it's hard to say what you'd consider a 'burden of proof' that you'd find satisfying. More than one woman came out with a public testimony. There are corroborating witnesses of Kennedy's problematic behavior. Failbetter - a company that knows Kennedy very well, what with it being co-founded by him - stood on the side of victims. Decisively. And according to some victims' testimonies they have turned to Failbetter first and FB protected at least some of them from AK or his retaliation over years. I don't know what you'd consider enough and what "due process" would have to happen here, if the things he's been accused of aren't necessarily punishable by law. Was due process AK leaving Failbetter, if it turned out that his behavior was the reason he's left? Was due process Bioware not continuing the collaboration after internal investigation, if such was the case? How one deals with toxic people if their behavior is damaging, but either not necessarily criminal or none of the victims have means to bring legal action against them? *sigh*... these are your words: "In many of the Catholic cases, due process was not attempted. People took their complaints to the Church, not the courts, and the Church responded by moving priests around, which allowed some of them to perpetrate further crimes. Had their first accusers taken it upon themselves to initiate legal investigations, their cases MAY HAVE been handled more expediently than they were and before additional people fell victim."You have basically suggested that because people took their complaints to Church and not the courts they have potentially contributed to the perpetrator hurting more people. That's 'blaming the victim" times 1000. This is wrong on so many levels... Bioware has publicly distanced itself from AK, so decisions have been made about any current and potential future collaboration.
You also seem to assume that the burden of proof hasn't been already brought to Bioware or that they don't know more than what is publicly known. But BW didn't just have long working relationship with Kennedy, but also Failbetter - and Failbetter is credited by some victims to being an entity that has helped them, and did so before news broke to the public. Ultimately, we don't know the dynamics of events that transpired - but if Bioware wanted more testimonies or insight into the situation, they have more channels to reach all the parties than general public has - so if the decisions have been made that impact AK negatively, it can't be easily assumed that they've reached their decision just based on public knowledge or opinion, even if the public won't get to know any more details.
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Post by Fredward on Sept 22, 2019 6:33:56 GMT
Reading through his post I don't think I'm comfortable with writing him off, frankly. 1. His relationship with Olivia was problematic but if it's true that she is the one 1) who asked for a job (ie knowingly not only entered into but help to create the situation where she would be dating her superior) 2) asked him not to mention it before or after then her position (that she 'in a relationship' with her boss but failing to mention her place in facilitating it and fearing for her job/reputation in going public after despite her previously asking him not to) is less straightforward than she implied initially. This doesn't say anything about HOW he decided to end it though which makes him, to quote his ex, a bit of a dick. 2. The fact that he immediately after dating an inferior he dated a different one is, again, problematic but considering that 1) they're still together and 2) there's on equal footing at Weather Factory (I think?) suggesting the relationship is somehow fundamentally flawed or actively abusive seems unfair. People harp on the age differential but at the end of the day two consenting adults who are mentally capable of making their own decisions can date who they want, suggesting that Lottie doesn't know what's good for her becomes infantilizing at some point. 3. The accusations of someone making you uncomfortable is fair enough I suppose as it relates to your own personal experience, not necessarily fair when you introduce it into a conversation about sexual abuse with the implication becoming that it has some kind of parity with or adds validity to abuse claims. Lastly, while I recognize why someone might not want to come forward when the figure you're accusing is also reputed to threaten/manipulate people into silence but this continuing suggestion of there being dozens of women with relevant experiences but they're all just cowed into silence sure is... something. "This man is an unrepentant chicken thief and I need you all to treat him that way!" "Do you have proof?" "There are dozens of people's whose chickens he's stolen capable of corroborating my account!" "Where are they?" "They don't want to come forward but trust me they're there!" Like. What are you supposed to even do with that, honestly? I get that a system that you need to use (public callouts) because other systems have failed you is going to have its flaws but this is something different, it's actively unfair to ask someone to be held accountable to Schrodinger's accusation. Having the aforementioned behaviors serve as the sole basis for consequences would be one thing, suggesting that they're part of a broader unseen pattern and having THAT serve as the basis for facing consequences while at the same time never having to proof that the unseen pattern exists is ENTIRELY another. So what do we have? Alexis Kennedy is a bit of dick who needs to stop dating his inferiors. But considering a variety of factors (the lack of even the suggestion that he used his position of power to coerce the women into entering it, the initiating of the relationship in at least one circumstance, the long[ish] term nature of both, that silence of the one was started at the request of the accuser) I'm not sure it justifies pariah status. Relationships are entered into by two consenting adults, when there's a power differential in the status of those two adults the bulk of knowing better rests on the person with the power but not all of that power and when you stay with that person over a long period of time without coercion and capable of sustaining yourself as a professional individual you're clearly signalling that you're okay with the power differential and that you're in the relationship despite that. Not even getting into how responsibility divvies up when you actively solicit the creation of the problematic relationship in the first place. Some red flags: I'm not sure what mentioning he had sex with Jayanth contributed to his perspective. I can infer that he probably has some personal enmity towards her now and that might have influenced him wanting to frame the conversation in a certain kind of way to suggest motive on her part. Do I but that motive? Not really, not without more reason. Do I understand why he might feel bitchy in his situation and mention irrelevant things? Yah. Second, it's never a good look to preemptively deny allegations but a) if you're 100% you did nothing wrong (as Kennedy seems to feel) and that as the existing accusations are unfounded (ie you perceive them as not having any legit reason to exist) that c) more accusations that you see as having no reason to exist might emanate from the ether and d) these can be preemptively discarded because you're sure you did nothing wrong.
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Post by Avejajed on Sept 22, 2019 8:14:53 GMT
In the United States, people are supposed to be innocent until proved guilty. Yet we often fail to apply this same value and courtesy to those with claims of sexual assault. In doing so, we fail to recognize that believing victims does not exist in lieu of due process but ensures its accessibility. Believing that survivors are telling the truth until proven otherwise is the other side of the due-process coin.
-K. Delaney
This conversation alone has been a great example of why people never come forward.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2019 10:32:30 GMT
In the United States, people are supposed to be innocent until proved guilty. Yet we often fail to apply this same value and courtesy to those with claims of sexual assault. In doing so, we fail to recognize that believing victims does not exist in lieu of due process but ensures its accessibility. Believing that survivors are telling the truth until proven otherwise is the other side of the due-process coin. -K. Delaney This conversation alone has been a great example of why people never come forward. I disagree. Believing in "burden of proof" does not automatically assume that the victim is lying nor does it automatically give the perpetrator the "benefit of doubt." What it does is hold off determining which party is in fact the victim because IF (and only if) the accuser is lying, the accused becomes the victim of a different crime... libel and slander... which also has a potential to ruin their lives. If people actually seek justice, they don't go to internet... they go to the justice system. If a perpetrator needs to be punished for a crime, then the crime has to be reported through the justice system. If the justice system fails, then it is the justice system that needs to be improved. Internet vigilantism is not a solution.
ETA: There's another way to look at this. AK has stated that he has filed a police complaint. By doing so, he has become an accuser himself and, as such, the burden of proof for that accusation rests on him. MJ doesn't have to prove her statements of innocence. Would people want the burden of proof that now rests on him to be erased in favor of judging the whole thing on internet forums? There are two people here claiming to be victims and the same two people are also accusers. All I'm saying is the burden of proof in every case rests with the accuser, not the accused. I'm not giving the "benefit of doubt" to one person over the other. My expectations are the same for each of them relative to the specific accusations they are making against each other.
In Canada, improvements to the justice system are being made. There are now also Harassment Tribunals, allowing victims of abuse an alternative to filing charges. Labor laws now expect employers to take specific formal steps to try to prevent harassment from happening in their workplaces in the first place... so is saying that Bioware should act in accordance with whatever Canadian laws apply here such a bad thing?
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Post by githcheater on Sept 22, 2019 18:42:55 GMT
I've been in a courtroom twice (as a potential juror and as an expert witness) and I hope I never set foot in a courtroom again. It is a stupid game that is not interested in justice. It is about arrogant judges and lawyers who care nothing about justice, but only care about winning their case.
Internet "justice" is much easier, and you don't have to put up with the bullshit legal system.
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