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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 2, 2019 7:33:07 GMT
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Post by revelationeffect on Sept 2, 2019 11:40:52 GMT
Indie creator responsible for part of the writing in Sunless Sea and Fallen London. Amid other abuse allegations regarding various members of the video game industry a couple women who had worked with him in the past and had relationships with him shared that he had behaved in an emotionally abusive and exploitative fashion towards them.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 2, 2019 12:35:53 GMT
Leaving aside the wider question about whether we should reject the art along with the artist because of behaviour that has been alleged against them, as opposed to any criminal charges actually being brought (there have been instances of high profile figures being accused through the media and then police/state prosecutors establishing there is no case to answer), in this instance I see no reason why Bioware should ditch the entire project they hired him for. Since they no doubt wrote it into his contract that they retained full rights over the material, there is nothing to stop them using it but not crediting him if they are concerned it could impact on their final product to do so. However, if the material was not credited to anyone else, people might draw their own conclusions as to the source.
It is equally possible that his contribution was ditched along with much other material at the time of the reboot, so the problem no longer existed even before the current revelations.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 2, 2019 12:44:33 GMT
I've seen some people argue that innocent until proven guilty also doesn't fly because 1) it's not a court, it's public opinion 2) it's naive specifically in the case of accusations of sexual assault/harassment because often there's a concerted effort to obfuscate the facts, silence the victim and/or actively undermine what they're saying. I feel like the first is technically true, like on paper, but it's the spirit of the thing. It's not nice to just assume the worst from someone on an accusation, it feels unjust beyond the lawful interpretations. The second has more weight for me but it's not necessarily applicable to every case. But to not assume the worst from the accused is to usually assume the worst from the accuser. The thing about movement like #metoo is that it’s fueled in large part by frustration stemming from victims frequently being disregarded/not believed/shunned, while statistically the number of people lying about it is small compared to cases when some sort of thing has indeed happened. I know that there exist people who think *any* notoriety is good or that some others will go extra mile in the name of vendetta or tearing someone down, but most of the times victims have little to gain from going public, at least until the motive isn’t to indeed get some form of justice, and even that frequently comes with things not many would want to deal with. That’s not to say that the accused should immediately be literally or figuratively lynched the moment someone speaks. I just think there’s still a lot to do before we learn as a society to deal with such issues and that ‘innocent until proven guilty’ is too a stance difficult to apply in many such cases given its zero-sum nature.
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Post by revelationeffect on Sept 2, 2019 12:56:13 GMT
I've seen some people argue that innocent until proven guilty also doesn't fly because 1) it's not a court, it's public opinion 2) it's naive specifically in the case of accusations of sexual assault/harassment because often there's a concerted effort to obfuscate the facts, silence the victim and/or actively undermine what they're saying. I feel like the first is technically true, like on paper, but it's the spirit of the thing. It's not nice to just assume the worst from someone on an accusation, it feels unjust beyond the lawful interpretations. The second has more weight for me but it's not necessarily applicable to every case. But to not assume the worst from the accused is to usually assume the worst from the accuser. The thing about movement like #meetoo is that it’s fueled in large part by frustration stemming from victims frequently being disregarded/not believed/shunned, while statistically the number of people lying about it is small compared to cases when some sort of thing has indeed happened. I know that there exist people who think *any* notoriety is good or that some others will go extra mile in the name of vendetta or tearing someone down, but most of the times victims have little to gain from going public, at least until the motive isn’t to indeed get some form of justice, and even that frequently comes with things not many would want to deal with. That’s not to say that the accused should immediately be literally or figuratively lynched the moment someone speaks. I just think there’s still a lot to do before we learn as a society to deal with such issues and that ‘innocent until proven guilty’ is too a stance difficult to apply in many such cases given its zero-sum nature. Absolutely. For decades, most attempts at speaking out about this stuff were largely disregarded and swept under the rug, especially when the abusers were famous. Given that historical context it’s very important that allegations be taken very seriously, and especially there should be no reason to doubt when they come from multiple sources.
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 2, 2019 12:57:36 GMT
Indie creator responsible for part of the writing in Sunless Sea and Fallen London. Amid other abuse allegations regarding various members of the video game industry a couple women who had worked with him in the past and had relationships with him shared that he had behaved in an emotionally abusive and exploitative fashion towards them. Never heard of him. And allegations about criminal offences being taken to twatter instead of to court I dont take seriously.
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Post by revelationeffect on Sept 2, 2019 13:29:45 GMT
Indie creator responsible for part of the writing in Sunless Sea and Fallen London. Amid other abuse allegations regarding various members of the video game industry a couple women who had worked with him in the past and had relationships with him shared that he had behaved in an emotionally abusive and exploitative fashion towards them. Never heard of him. And allegations about criminal offences being taken to twatter instead of to court I dont take seriously. As far as I know nothing he did was really legally actionable, just profoundly scummy and toxic, the kind of stuff that paints a clear picture of a really shitty person. Regardless, it’s very understandable that many of the victims speaking out do not pursue legal action: even apart from the fact that some of the cases involve international logistical difficulties, taking cases like these to court is an emotional nightmare that consumes a lot of financial resources, and to boot they rarely result in a conviction under normal circumstances, even less often when the accused has more financial resources or influence to draw on. It is an entirely valid tactic to instead simply publicly out their unacceptable behavior via the signal boosting the internet age has newly enabled, which can have the multiple results of warning others so they can avoid falling victim to the abusers, opening up the possibility that they will to some extent be held professionally accountable at the very least, and increasingly building a culture where this kind of shit is not as easily swept under the rug and victims can feel safer speaking out.
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 2, 2019 13:38:14 GMT
Never heard of him. And allegations about criminal offences being taken to twatter instead of to court I dont take seriously. As far as I know nothing he did was really legally actionable, just profoundly scummy and toxic, the kind of stuff that paints a clear picture of a really shitty person. Regardless, it’s very understandable that many of the victims speaking out do not pursue legal action: even apart from the fact that some of the cases involve international logistical difficulties, taking cases like these to court is an emotional nightmare that consumes a lot of financial resources, and to boot they rarely result in a conviction under normal circumstances, even less often when the accused has more financial resources or influence to draw on. It is an entirely valid tactic to instead simply publicly out their unacceptable behavior via the signal boosting the internet age has newly enabled, which can have the multiple results of warning others so they can avoid falling victim to the abusers, opening up the possibility that they will to some extent be held professionally accountable at the very least, and increasingly building a culture where this kind of shit is not as easily swept under the rug and victims can feel safer speaking out. Yes, yes - and social media witch hunts are so much more entertaining, too. Why bore ourselves with the legal routines when we can burn complete strangers at the social stake?
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 2, 2019 13:54:29 GMT
It is an entirely valid tactic to instead simply publicly out their unacceptable behavior via the signal boosting the internet age has newly enabled, which can have the multiple results of warning others so they can avoid falling victim to the abusers, opening up the possibility that they will to some extent be held professionally accountable at the very least, and increasingly building a culture where this kind of shit is not as easily swept under the rug and victims can feel safer speaking out. However, it is widely known how the digital media can be used to bully and ostracise. There have also been occasions of accusations being made against someone in the past which has ruined their career, only to later be shown to have been totally unjustified. I am fully aware of the fact that victims of predatory and emotionally manipulative people also historically have had to struggle with not being believed and that has allowed the perpetrators to continue their behaviour. This is why whilst I would not wish to reject accusations against AK out of hand, I am also disturbed that the entire business seems to be based around revelations made over Twitter. If the person has done things in their personal life that are criminally abusive then it should be reported to the police. If the person has done things in their professional life that are unacceptable but not necessarily criminal, this should be reported to their employers. If this has been done and the employer has ignored the complaints, then the organisation should be reported to their regulatory authority. There are official channels that people can go through and where these days people will be listened to but to conduct trial by Twitter is not the way to go about it and is too open to misuse by the vindictive as well as the genuinely and justifiably aggrieved.
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Post by revelationeffect on Sept 2, 2019 14:06:01 GMT
As far as I know nothing he did was really legally actionable, just profoundly scummy and toxic, the kind of stuff that paints a clear picture of a really shitty person. Regardless, it’s very understandable that many of the victims speaking out do not pursue legal action: even apart from the fact that some of the cases involve international logistical difficulties, taking cases like these to court is an emotional nightmare that consumes a lot of financial resources, and to boot they rarely result in a conviction under normal circumstances, even less often when the accused has more financial resources or influence to draw on. It is an entirely valid tactic to instead simply publicly out their unacceptable behavior via the signal boosting the internet age has newly enabled, which can have the multiple results of warning others so they can avoid falling victim to the abusers, opening up the possibility that they will to some extent be held professionally accountable at the very least, and increasingly building a culture where this kind of shit is not as easily swept under the rug and victims can feel safer speaking out. Yes, yes - and social media witch hunts are so much more entertaining, too. Why bore ourselves with the legal routines when we can burn complete strangers at the social stake? Seems pretty unreasonable to me to expect victims to either subject themselves to the emotional hell of taking an abuser to court and the accompanying potentiality of bankrupting themselves on legal fees in pursuit of an outcome that statistically speaking is liable to be the abuser being acquitted, or just never talk about what they experienced. It’d be really nice if there was more legal recourse for victims of abuse, but the fact of the matter is that the legal system is stacked against them.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 2, 2019 14:11:21 GMT
As far as I know nothing he did was really legally actionable, just profoundly scummy and toxic, the kind of stuff that paints a clear picture of a really shitty person. Regardless, it’s very understandable that many of the victims speaking out do not pursue legal action: even apart from the fact that some of the cases involve international logistical difficulties, taking cases like these to court is an emotional nightmare that consumes a lot of financial resources, and to boot they rarely result in a conviction under normal circumstances, even less often when the accused has more financial resources or influence to draw on. It is an entirely valid tactic to instead simply publicly out their unacceptable behavior via the signal boosting the internet age has newly enabled, which can have the multiple results of warning others so they can avoid falling victim to the abusers, opening up the possibility that they will to some extent be held professionally accountable at the very least, and increasingly building a culture where this kind of shit is not as easily swept under the rug and victims can feel safer speaking out. Yes, yes - and social media witch hunts are so much more entertaining, too. Why bore ourselves with the legal routines when we can burn complete strangers at the social stake? Why assume that victims didn't take legal routes first? It seems that in case of AK the victims have first reached out to Failbetter itself and decided to go public when not only it did little to the perpetrator, but has exposed other victims to someone who used his privileged position to prey on people. Never mind that it was pointed out already that sometimes there is no legal path to take on in certain cases or it is very difficult. We know for a fact a lot of victims have reached out to their employers or law enforcement and nothing happened or things went from bad to worse. Going public appears to be the most effective recourse at the moment, especially when it comes to people whose actions aren't necessarily criminal, but scummy and ultimately disregarding them allows for toxic environment to exist and worse things to happen. Like... I don't know what position you take on airing dirty laundry like it happened in case of Bioware and other game studios recently. None of what they did appears to be criminal (in BW's case) yet a lot of people - fans and non-fans - believe bringing issues of unhealthy work environment to public attention will both make people aware that the games they love and crave come at a human cost and that a lot has to be done to make things better, especially on the employer's part or within larger systems. It's not that different in case of different kind of toxicity within game industry and beyond.
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 2, 2019 14:12:47 GMT
Yes, yes - and social media witch hunts are so much more entertaining, too. Why bore ourselves with the legal routines when we can burn complete strangers at the social stake? Seems pretty unreasonable to me to expect victims to either subject themselves to the emotional hell of taking an abuser to court and the accompanying potentiality of bankrupting themselves on legal fees in pursuit of an outcome that statistically speaking is liable to be the abuser being acquitted, or just never talk about what they experienced. It’d be really nice if there was more legal recourse for victims of abuse, but the fact of the matter is that the legal system is stacked against them. Seems pretty unreasonable to me to embrace crimes going unpunished and instead opting for mob justice. Because mob can do it so much better, right?
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Sept 2, 2019 14:21:21 GMT
When worrying about what happens to men who are falsely accused, it's worth remembering that what usually happens when a woman tells people that a prominent and successful man harassed, assaulted and/or raped her is ... nothing much of anything.
Maybe there's some social media noise. Maybe they lose some work over it. Maybe if they harass, assault and rape a lot of people over many years there might eventually be some actual consequences for their career and/or freedom to wander around harassing, assaulting and/or raping people. But it's not like Neil DeGrasse Tyson or Geoffrey Rush or Jonnhy Depp or Louis C.K. or Lawrence Krauss or Anthony Kiedis or Michael Fassbender or many dozens of others I could name are starving in a gutter.
The reason women tell other women these things (whether via whisper network or via Twitter) is that maybe it will warn other women that the man in question is not safe to be around.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 2, 2019 14:22:32 GMT
Seems pretty unreasonable to me to expect victims to either subject themselves to the emotional hell of taking an abuser to court and the accompanying potentiality of bankrupting themselves on legal fees in pursuit of an outcome that statistically speaking is liable to be the abuser being acquitted, or just never talk about what they experienced. It’d be really nice if there was more legal recourse for victims of abuse, but the fact of the matter is that the legal system is stacked against them. Seems pretty unreasonable to me to embrace crimes going unpunished and instead opting for mob justice. Because mob can do it so much better, right? The evidence so far sadly proves that yes - it does seem to make things better than other solutions. It may not be a perfect solution and I am personally not one for big public lynchings, but it has been a case time and time and time and time again that the most effective way to deal with some people and behaviors so far is attracting the "mob's" attention. The other solutions failed too much to be trusted. And things won't change much without a larger debate and some paradigm shifts within larger society - which is usually spurred, well... by going public.
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Post by Reznore on Sept 2, 2019 14:32:26 GMT
Artists like all people when they do something against the law, should be judged same way as everybody else. Some artists can get a strange kind of immunity. As for their creation, depends on the content, I'm not huge on censorship but if some people have been abused, for the sake of them getting better might want to tone it down on the praise for a while.
I have not read any detail of the whole story, and don't really feel like it, but people in general should never be put on too much of a pedestal. I'm a huge fan of rock music, a lot of musicians I enjoy had abusive relationship sometimes with underage girls (some "groupies" stories aren't for the faint of heart), got to give it to the rock universe, it can be super gross but at least it was somewhat honest...if those dudes get metooed well...I'll still enjoy their music but I won't shed a tear for them. If they traumatised some girls/ women with their excesses, reparations need to be made. Anyway when there are power dynamics, and there often is in the workplace, you always always have a risk for abuse to happen.
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 2, 2019 14:56:10 GMT
Seems pretty unreasonable to me to embrace crimes going unpunished and instead opting for mob justice. Because mob can do it so much better, right? The evidence so far sadly proves that yes - it does seem to make things better than other solutions. It may not be a perfect solution and I am personally not one for big public lynchings, but it has been a case time and time and time and time again that the most effective way to deal with some people and behaviors so far is attracting the "mob's" attention. The other solutions failed too much to be trusted. And things won't change much without a larger debate and some paradigm shifts within larger society - which is usually spurred, well... by going public. So, this thread is actually about naming and shaming. Well done, you picked a spot where your chosen one can't defend. I don't really care enough for these crusades.
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Post by Reznore on Sept 2, 2019 15:00:14 GMT
So, this thread is actually about naming and shaming. Well done, you picked a spot where your chosen one can't defend. I don't really care enough for these crusades. No offense but women have been named and shamed since forever.
Yeah it sucks. We know.
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 2, 2019 15:09:11 GMT
So, this thread is actually about naming and shaming. Well done, you picked a spot where your chosen one can't defend. I don't really care enough for these crusades. No offense but women have been named and shamed since forever.
Yeah it sucks. We know.
You're a fool if you believe it's a us vs them thing. Women still get witch-hunted. It's how "social" media work.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 2, 2019 16:14:21 GMT
"Witch hunt" isn't a great metaphor for this. Witches didn't exist, but abusive scumbags do exist.
Edit: I just don't see any problem with someone being named and shamed for something he should be ashamed of.
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Post by Reznore on Sept 2, 2019 17:14:28 GMT
You're a fool if you believe it's a us vs them thing. Women still get witch-hunted. It's how "social" media work. Of course women still get witch hunted. We're on a video game forum, that still happens to female game dev every couple of years.
I'm sorry but I don't think men are used to get their personal sexual life dragged on the public sphere. There's rarely been a dude called the town bicycle.
And maybe this problem ends up on social media because women don't have a proper justice system to turn to.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 2, 2019 17:24:42 GMT
The evidence so far sadly proves that yes - it does seem to make things better than other solutions. It may not be a perfect solution and I am personally not one for big public lynchings, but it has been a case time and time and time and time again that the most effective way to deal with some people and behaviors so far is attracting the "mob's" attention. The other solutions failed too much to be trusted. And things won't change much without a larger debate and some paradigm shifts within larger society - which is usually spurred, well... by going public. So, this thread is actually about naming and shaming. Well done, you picked a spot where your chosen one can't defend. I don't really care enough for these crusades. No it isn't and what you're doing now is a textbook example of strawman argument.
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Post by midnightwolf on Sept 2, 2019 17:26:47 GMT
So, this thread is actually about naming and shaming. Well done, you picked a spot where your chosen one can't defend. I don't really care enough for these crusades. No it isn't and what you're doing now is a textbook example of strawman argument. So what is it about? For those of us who don't follow social media, nor no who this person is?
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 2, 2019 17:32:35 GMT
No it isn't and what you're doing now is a textbook example of strawman argument. So what is it about? For those of us who don't follow social media, nor no who this person is? Thinly-veiled agenda pushing against a perceived wrong-doer. I expect the anti-sjw brigade to show up soon to spew their bullshit in turn. Most of them got butthurt when the political thread got closed tho.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 2, 2019 17:40:03 GMT
No it isn't and what you're doing now is a textbook example of strawman argument. So what is it about? For those of us who don't follow social media, nor no who this person is? Well, it definitely isn't as simple as 'naming and shaming' that's for sure and characterizing every situation like this or calling it 'mob justice' is disingenuous. After all, does this happen only in social media? Prior to social media it was oftentimes news media and journalists - right now a lot of people simply choose to either cut the middlemen or start on personal channels of communication first. A ton of stuff was only resolved/at least somewhat better because people chose to go public - from bringing to attention that an individual is a harasser to international scandals. Are you willing to call all these instances 'naming and shaming'? Informing public is frequently the last resort anyway - when other solutions or forms of defense often proved to be ineffective or inequitable. It isn't a perfect solution, but proved more effective than other channels in a ton of instances in this day and age.
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Post by midnightwolf on Sept 2, 2019 17:41:17 GMT
So what is it about? For those of us who don't follow social media, nor no who this person is? Thinly-veiled agenda pushing against a perceived wrong-doer. I expect the anti-sjw brigade to show up soon to spew their bullshit in turn. Most of them got butthurt when the political thread got closed tho. Ah. I can't comment on any of this, I've only been back here a couple of weeks after over a year away. Nice to see everyone getting on though PS: As a suggestion. Perhaps you all calm down a little, and then TRY to discuss it? It's clear you all feel strongly.
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