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Post by Nightscrawl on Sept 19, 2019 22:56:26 GMT
I'm curious to see how Bioware will surpass DAI on the romance and representation front. Among the romances(counting Harding) alone it had: 3 straight men 1 straight woman 1 gay man 1 lesbian 1 pan man 2 bi women (one of which could be seen as Ace or Demi according to the writer) I would like to see all of the options being equal for once. Even with DA2 and their talk about fairness, there was still Sebastian.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 19, 2019 23:41:43 GMT
I didn't go anywhere. You said that creators shouldn't be forced to 'please everyone', which isn't actually a thing that is happening, so I asked how you'd feel if, for once, you were the group that wasn't being catered to. And since your answer to 'token' content, whatever you think that means, is to remove it, and not to try harder, yeah, I think I have a good sense of how you feel about the issue.
I'm black, if you can't tell by some of the screenshots. So I don't have to imagine how it feels to be the group that wasn't being catered to. I know good and well what it's like.
Having said that, I believe my comment was if it's going to be token (thrown in to just say you have it) or half-assed I'd rather not have it be included at all.
And now you know that, in 2019, it's possible to point to dozens, possibly even hundreds of examples of AAA mainstream games where the protagonist can be black, or where being black is the only option. By contrast, we can't say that about AAA mainstream games with gay protagonists at all. There are very few where it's even offered as a choice, and NONE AT ALL that feature a fixed gay protagonist. Last of Us 2 is the first one to ever even be announced, and it still isn't out yet. But because developers are lazy and ignorant, you'd rather let them off the hook completely, rather than expect them to try harder.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 19, 2019 23:58:28 GMT
And you know what? Not for nothing, but this "YOU CAN'T PLEASE EVERYONE HERP-DE-DERP" argument only ever crops up in response to people asking for more/better quality LGBT romances. None of the people spouting it in here ever say it in any of the threads about other potential game features or story aspects.
It's a very obvious attempt to shut down LGBT fans by positioning them as being somehow particularly demanding and selfish, and frame them as bullying BioWare into doing things they don't want to do. If I made a thread saying I want DA4 to return to isometric combat, or the Unreal Engine, or scrap multiplayer, or allow me to murder every single character, including children, there wouldn't be any knuckleheads going "NEENER NEENER CAN'T PLEASE EVERYONE".
In fact, I could be extremely aggressive and demanding about those issues, and you'd all be stroking your chins going 'Hmm, yes, compelling argument, fellow scholar. Genocide IS good roleplaying, very good roleplaying indeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed.'
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Post by Iakus on Sept 20, 2019 0:04:19 GMT
And you know what? Not for nothing, but this "YOU CAN'T PLEASE EVERYONE HERP-DE-DERP" argument only ever crops up in response to people asking for more/better quality LGBT romances. None of the people spouting it in here ever say it in any of the threads about other potential game features or story aspects. It's a very obvious attempt to shut down LGBT fans by positioning them as being somehow particularly demanding and selfish, and frame them as bullying BioWare into doing things they don't want to do. If I made a thread saying I want DA4 to return to isometric combat, or the Unreal Engine, or scrap multiplayer, or allow me to murder every single character, including children, there wouldn't be any knuckleheads going "NEENER NEENER CAN'T PLEASE EVERYONE". In fact, I could be extremely aggressive and demanding about those issues, and you'd all be stroking your chins going 'Hmm, yes, compelling argument, fellow scholar.' Citation needed.
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Post by phoray on Sept 20, 2019 0:25:23 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 1:53:22 GMT
I'm black, if you can't tell by some of the screenshots. So I don't have to imagine how it feels to be the group that wasn't being catered to. I know good and well what it's like.
Having said that, I believe my comment was if it's going to be token (thrown in to just say you have it) or half-assed I'd rather not have it be included at all.
And now you know that, in 2019, it's possible to point to dozens, possibly even hundreds of examples of AAA mainstream games where the protagonist can be black, or where being black is the only option. By contrast, we can't say that about AAA mainstream games with gay protagonists at all. There are very few where it's even offered as a choice, and NONE AT ALL that feature a fixed gay protagonist. Last of Us 2 is the first one to ever even be announced, and it still isn't out yet. But because developers are lazy and ignorant, you'd rather let them off the hook completely, rather than expect them to try harder. Would you mind naming some of these ~hundreds~ of games where you can be black, especially the ones where a black protagonist is your only option? I am personally very interested in such a list. Unless you are just counting the sports games, in which case that is about as interesting as playing oppression olympics.
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Post by regack on Sept 20, 2019 2:19:07 GMT
Are we still talking about BioWare, and how they might or might not regret putting romance in their games, or are we on to completely other things now?
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Post by Nightscrawl on Sept 20, 2019 2:43:26 GMT
If I made a thread saying I want DA4 to return to isometric combat, or the Unreal Engine, or scrap multiplayer, or allow me to murder every single character, including children, there wouldn't be any knuckleheads going "NEENER NEENER CAN'T PLEASE EVERYONE". You know that I'm for LGBT content and inclusivity for not only LGBT players but also women and POC. I don't think this is true at all. I have said something similar in regard to issues like the voiced protagonist, PC origin stories, and similar things not related to romances. With those things, you can't please everyone: you either have origin stories, or you don't; you have a voiced protagonist, or you don't. They have said repeatedly that toggles are not the miracle panacea that some players make them out to be.
They also can't please everyone with romance types, whether a LI is a KISA, a female character is feminine enough or a spunky woman like Sera (I know some guys think she's the bee's knees). I personally enjoy dark-haired, witty, roguish types with some angst and have no interest whatsoever in an Alistair/Cullen blonde, bashful, KISA-type.
But is IS possible to have equal representation for opposite-sex and same-sex romance options. Regarding numbers of options alone, they actually can please the majority of players. I don't place inclusivity in the same category as those other things. There is a difference between any given player, including LGBT and other marginalized players, having varying views on combat, iso cam, dialogue options, and so on, and those same marginalized players feeling excluded because of certain choices the devs made in character creation or romance options. Unfortunately, romances are one of the limited ways to have LGBT representation in games and to play such a character outside of headcanon. The same can't be said for creating a POC character, since you can set skin color during character creation. I've mentioned this before, but I think the Halward scene during Dorian's quest was a missed opportunity to state solidarity with him in being gay or bi yourself outside the romance path. That is sort of available, but it's a  option and only for male characters (and it's also gated behind a dialogue that I dislike, but that's just me). Outside of having more ambient NPC interaction to represent LGBT characters, it would be nice for the PC to have additional ways of expressing that outside of a romance. Since attraction, sex, and romance are tied together, I don't know how that would be accomplished, but I think the writers could come up with something.
I don't think it's helpful to speak in absolutes as you do. It clouds your message.
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Post by Syv on Sept 20, 2019 2:50:45 GMT
And now you know that, in 2019, it's possible to point to dozens, possibly even hundreds of examples of AAA mainstream games where the protagonist can be black, or where being black is the only option. By contrast, we can't say that about AAA mainstream games with gay protagonists at all. There are very few where it's even offered as a choice, and NONE AT ALL that feature a fixed gay protagonist. Last of Us 2 is the first one to ever even be announced, and it still isn't out yet. But because developers are lazy and ignorant, you'd rather let them off the hook completely, rather than expect them to try harder. Would you mind naming some of these ~hundreds~ of games where you can be black, especially the ones where a black protagonist is your only option? I am personally very interested in such a list. Unless you are just counting the sports games, in which case that is about as interesting as playing oppression olympics. I need that list too. It seems I have missed a lot of AAA mainstream games these last years. Where have I been ? Most of AAA RPG games where you have the possibilty to roleplay a black character, are not only made by the same studio like Bioware, but there are also lgbt romances as well anyways. After if there aren't romances in a game, it's normal to not be able to roleplay its sexuality, it's not a feature that you see everywhere in every type in AAA games. Romances aren't that popular even if we see such thing more and more. The only AAA game I played where I remember that the protagonist was only black, it was GTA, where we play a thug. ( I loved GTA San Andreas, not the point ) As for other games, it was RPGs, where it is just normal to be able to do such thing in such type of game lol. Bioware's games, Bethesda's games, that's it. Don't expect me to applause such a minimal thing.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 20, 2019 2:52:21 GMT
And now you know that, in 2019, it's possible to point to dozens, possibly even hundreds of examples of AAA mainstream games where the protagonist can be black, or where being black is the only option. By contrast, we can't say that about AAA mainstream games with gay protagonists at all. There are very few where it's even offered as a choice, and NONE AT ALL that feature a fixed gay protagonist. Last of Us 2 is the first one to ever even be announced, and it still isn't out yet. But because developers are lazy and ignorant, you'd rather let them off the hook completely, rather than expect them to try harder. Would you mind naming some of these ~hundreds~ of games where you can be black, especially the ones where a black protagonist is your only option? I am personally very interested in such a list. Unless you are just counting the sports games, in which case that is about as interesting as playing oppression olympics. Literally ANY game that lets you create your own character allows you to make them black, and you know this, because you are here, on this fan forum for an RPG studio, so don't play dumb. It would take less time to list the games with CC that don't allow you to be black (it's pretty much just Kingdom Come Deliverance). As for games where being black is your only option, well, just off the top of my head: GTA San Andreas, Mafia 3, Prototype 2, 50 Cent: Bulletproof, 50 Cent: Blood on the Sand, Telltale's Walking Dead, Assassin's Creed: Liberation, just to name a few. A cursory google search brings up several games based on Blade, Black Panther, Afro Samurai, etc, and games starring Shaq, Michael Jordan and Michael Jackson, that aren't about sports or dancing. I never said the representation was great, and especially not on par with white protagonists. There are literally millions of video games that have existed, hundreds is not actually very many. But it's more than ZERO. |
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Post by smilesja on Sept 20, 2019 2:58:41 GMT
Are we still talking about BioWare, and how they might or might not regret putting romance in their games, or are we on to completely other things now? The latter, it seems that people just want to continue old grudges. |
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Post by Reznore on Sept 20, 2019 4:32:01 GMT
I've mentioned this before, but I think the Halward scene during Dorian's quest was a missed opportunity to state solidarity with him in being gay or bi yourself outside the romance path. That is sort of available, but it's a option and only for male characters (and it's also gated behind a dialogue that I dislike, but that's just me). I have huge respect for Gaider, and I've read that scene meant a lot to him and I've read it meant a lot to some gay players (although some gay players weren't so happy) But quite frankly I did not care for Halward/Dorian the way it plays out in game. For me it was the equivalent of the Alistair/Goldanna, Halward is irrelevant in Inquisition, and the tension of same sex relationship are irrelevant in southern Thedas. (mostly, I'm sure you can find counter example here and there) So for me it's self contained family drama with me going "there, there" dude.
Now what tend to bother me is we'd never played a same sex Dorian romance back in Tevinter and see what it meant for his family. If you have access to lore books it's a whole different story than what we got in Inquisition. Halward was a high ranking magister who had tied to the Archon, he was pro reform and therefore his life was protected by his reputation and his social contacts. Dorian went full public life of the party, young adult on a public "disgrace" rampage (and you can get why, he was brought up with far far too much pressure on him). Tevinter being what it is, Dorian wanting to be publicly a gay man put his family in danger.
Now I'm thinking how interesting having a gay relationship with Dorian would have been in Tevinter. It would deal with some brutal stuff, and I wouldn't want Dorian or the pc to get murdered or be blamed. I would want it to be very clear Tevinter culture has huge huge issues and is criminal and unhealthy.
But what a cool romance it would be if you have to navigate some political shenanigans (that could be related to main quest), etc like Maevaries had to do with her dwarven husband, just to gain power enough to be able to walk Tevinter proudly as a gay couple, and no one can touch you anymore.
Now what tends to frustrate me a great deal when it comes to players demands is some people want only nice, positive story that does not remind them of IRL. And again I get it, games are a form of escapism...but I personally don't play DA just for that type of things. It annoys me because nowadays you get the gripping dark layered stuff in codices and books, and Dorian is a great example of that, and in game you end up with a lot of let's not go there.
I'm often left wondering how Bioware will be able to deal with Tevinter.
Anyway some weird anecdocte...in the old forum there was a fuss about why we couldn't romance Vivienne. Someone from Bioware said it was in small small part because there was some feeling of being uncomfortable about the fetishization of black women. It left me with my jaw hanging and a huge WTF feeling. Vivienne was designed to be hot and beautiful, and players tends to want to romance hot and beautiful. It's like water is wet. If you don't want to romance a black character you're an asshole but if you do you're a creep. So yes when thinking back on that one, I do think some people at Bioware sometimes cry bitter tears of regret while having a huge headache.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 4:34:12 GMT
Would you mind naming some of these ~hundreds~ of games where you can be black, especially the ones where a black protagonist is your only option? I am personally very interested in such a list. Unless you are just counting the sports games, in which case that is about as interesting as playing oppression olympics. Literally ANY game that lets you create your own character allows you to make them black, and you know this, because you are here, on this fan forum for an RPG studio, so don't play dumb. It would take less time to list the games with CC that don't allow you to be black (it's pretty much just Kingdom Come Deliverance). As for games where being black is your only option, well, just off the top of my head: GTA San Andreas, Mafia 3, Prototype 2, 50 Cent: Bulletproof, 50 Cent: Blood on the Sand, Telltale's Walking Dead, Assassin's Creed: Liberation, just to name a few. A cursory google search brings up several games based on Blade, Black Panther, Afro Samurai, etc, and games starring Shaq, Michael Jordan and Michael Jackson, that aren't about sports or dancing. I never said the representation was great, and especially not on par with white protagonists. There are literally millions of video games that have existed, hundreds is not actually very many. But it's more than ZERO. of games yet you can only name 7? There are plenty of games with cc that do not allow you to make black characters, trust me. It is even a challenge in the first two dragon ages. And if that counts then in any game where you decide on your character, you can also make them gay, so? Off the top top of my head: Assassins creed syndicate - Jacob Frye Overwatch - tracer and soldier Dreamfall chapters - Kian Borderlands - Athena and Axton Prey - F Morgan Life is strange - Max Lis2 - Sean The last of us - ellie Technomancer - Zach The witcher - Ciri The walking dead - Clementine and Javier Off the top of my head where you can explicitly choose to make your character gay or bi: Dragon age origins Dragon age 2 Dragon age inquisition Mass effect 3 Mass effect andromeda Jade empire Swtor Kotor Expeditions viking Pathfinder kingmaker Baldurs gate Fable - all of them Stardew Saints row Pillars of eternity 2 Assassins creed odyssey Fallout all/most of them I am not sure. I know for certain the last 3 Skyrim Dragons dogma Vampire the masquerade Kingdom of amalur Divinity original sin Divinity original sin 2 Fire emblem Sure as hell a lot more than zero. And looks to even be more than the black character list. But it is funny, all these hundreds of games we have listed yet being bi and a poc, I still feel like I am losing.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Sept 20, 2019 4:48:38 GMT
Reznore I'll just say that I disagree and leave it at that. This is not the thread to rehash the merits of Dorian's personal quest.
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Post by leadintea on Sept 20, 2019 6:08:41 GMT
Now what tends to frustrate me a great deal when it comes to players demands is some people want only nice, positive story that does not remind them of IRL. And again I get it, games are a form of escapism...but I personally don't play DA just for that type of things.It annoys me because nowadays you get the gripping dark layered stuff in codices and books, and Dorian is a great example of that, and in game you end up with a lot of let's not go there.
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Post by Xunne13 on Sept 20, 2019 8:11:51 GMT
I have no doubt there are people at Bioware than cannot be fucked with romances anymore, but they've been an increasingly integral part of their games since they were introduced BG2, so quite frankly they're not going anywhere.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 20, 2019 8:52:47 GMT
Literally ANY game that lets you create your own character allows you to make them black, and you know this, because you are here, on this fan forum for an RPG studio, so don't play dumb. It would take less time to list the games with CC that don't allow you to be black (it's pretty much just Kingdom Come Deliverance). As for games where being black is your only option, well, just off the top of my head: GTA San Andreas, Mafia 3, Prototype 2, 50 Cent: Bulletproof, 50 Cent: Blood on the Sand, Telltale's Walking Dead, Assassin's Creed: Liberation, just to name a few. A cursory google search brings up several games based on Blade, Black Panther, Afro Samurai, etc, and games starring Shaq, Michael Jordan and Michael Jackson, that aren't about sports or dancing. I never said the representation was great, and especially not on par with white protagonists. There are literally millions of video games that have existed, hundreds is not actually very many. But it's more than ZERO. of games yet you can only name 7? There are plenty of games with cc that do not allow you to make black characters, trust me. It is even a challenge in the first two dragon ages. And if that counts then in any game where you decide on your character, you can also make them gay, so? Off the top top of my head: Assassins creed syndicate - Jacob Frye Overwatch - tracer and soldier Dreamfall chapters - Kian Borderlands - Athena and Axton Prey - F Morgan Life is strange - Max Lis2 - Sean The last of us - ellie Technomancer - Zach The witcher - Ciri The walking dead - Clementine and Javier Off the top of my head where you can explicitly choose to make your character gay or bi: Dragon age origins Dragon age 2 Dragon age inquisition Mass effect 3 Mass effect andromeda Jade empire Swtor Kotor Expeditions viking Pathfinder kingmaker Baldurs gate Fable - all of them Stardew Saints row Pillars of eternity 2 Assassins creed odyssey Fallout all/most of them I am not sure. I know for certain the last 3 Skyrim Dragons dogma Vampire the masquerade Kingdom of amalur Divinity original sin Divinity original sin 2 Fire emblem Sure as hell a lot more than zero. And looks to even be more than the black character list. But it is funny, all these hundreds of games we have listed yet being bi and a poc, I still feel like I am losing. Yeah, because I haven't played every single one of the LITERALLY BILLIONS of video games that have ever existed. Have you? No. But I'm supposed to just 'trust' YOU when YOU say that there are 'lots' of video games with CC that DON'T allow you to be black, but you don't cite any. And I never said there weren't games where you can choose to make your character gay or bisexual, I said there are no AAA mainstream games with a fixed LGBT protagonist, and until we get Last of Us 2, that will continue to be the case. And lol, you can't choose to make Jacob Frye ANYTHING. You don't control his sexuality, he is a fixed protagonist with one scene that some people choose to interpret as bisexual subtext, and subtext is NOT representation. If you're going to rely on subtext, you might as well say every videogame protagonist is secretly gay because YOU decided they are. And while we're here, you don't get direct input on your final love interest in Dragon's Dogma either, they get chosen FOR YOU based on a hidden system that players have to learn how to manipulate. And the TWO most recent games of the decades-old Fire Emblem series offer a FEW same-sex options (8 women and 1 man), while ENTIRE REST OF THE CAST (more than 30 characters), are available for a straight romance. Context matters. At least I acknowledge that the situation for other minorities is also shit, while you're acting like queers are sitting on a secret goldmine of representation. |
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Sept 20, 2019 9:17:03 GMT
That will do, thanks.
Does Bioware regret putting romances into their games? Yes/No, discuss.
If you can't work within that, then the thread has run its course.
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Post by witchcocktor on Sept 20, 2019 10:13:37 GMT
I really can't imagine Bioware regretting putting romances in the game. It's the sole thing that makes Dragon Age stand out amongst it's peers. But I can't deny that the weight people put on romances specifically doesn't make them a little nervous, scared and frustrated. In the end, this is not a dating sim, it's a roleplaying game.
Personally I'd be fine with one bi male romance, one bi female romance that had several routes the romance would go, and they would be incredibly story relevant and well made. Straights, lesbians, gays and asexuals could be represented through other non-romanceable but important companions and NPCs. This would also leave opportunities to create romantic storylines between companions, straight or gay ones, which I've always found to be pretty neat.
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Post by Felya87 on Sept 20, 2019 14:31:26 GMT
I doubt there is regret in adding romances from BioWare: the simple fact that more and more games are tryng to do them too is a sign that is a very requested/liked/remunerative feature. And I don't see them regret them even in the future. Can they make them better? Of course. Just as combact can be done better, dialogues, story, customization and any feature in game.
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Post by Iddy on Sept 20, 2019 19:52:48 GMT
Why regret something that helps sell their product?
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Post by regack on Sept 20, 2019 19:55:55 GMT
We realize that conversations wander, especially if they're an interesting discussion in and of themselves, but there's also a reason why the "Create Thread" option exists. If anyone would wish to exercise this option, and perhaps have some of the meandering talk moved to a better location for continued discussion, I'm sure it can be arranged.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 23:10:39 GMT
Are we still talking about BioWare, and how they might or might not regret putting romance in their games, or are we on to completely other things now? The latter, it seems that people just want to continue old grudges. You were teacher’s pet weren’t you?
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Post by Nightscrawl on Sept 20, 2019 23:23:57 GMT
regack I don't even drink coffee, but I find your avatar gif mesmerizing...
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Post by smilesja on Sept 21, 2019 0:34:17 GMT
The latter, it seems that people just want to continue old grudges. You were teacher’s pet weren’t you? And what are you talking about? |
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option and only for male characters (and it's also gated behind a dialogue that I dislike, but that's just me).
