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Post by AnDromedary on Feb 21, 2020 20:21:40 GMT
I'm suggesting they didn't know about the sender part and did not realize the purpose of the receiver. That, to me, is the one big plot hole in ME1. How could the reapers miss that one? Suddenly, there is a new mass relay receiver (based on their own technology, so they certainly wouldn't mistake it for a statue) right in the middle of their most important structure in the universe. Also, every mass relay needs a counterpart so where is the one for this one? They didn't come across it while clearing out all known prothean systems. The conclusion they should have drawn is that they missed something - and something important at that. They missed the one spot where one of the cycle races developed technology that they should never have had according to the reapers. It should have indicated a lingering threat to their sceme and would certainly have been worth investigating.
And even if they missed it somehow, why wouldn't the keepers remove this foreign artifact? After all, it's pretty well established that they "tidy up" the Citadel of everything else.
As much as I like to headcanon my way around plot holes, in this case, I have a hard time doing so. Of course, you could come up with any number of stories why it happened but this one would have merited some further explanation in game.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 21, 2020 20:40:41 GMT
It's too bad Shepard couldn't meet with Javik by the mini-me relay for him to do his touch thing to reveal information about the little relay.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 20:42:23 GMT
Because the reapers were big-ass machines and would not be able to fit inside significant parts of the citadel?
Also, the important part is "receiver" ... a passive receiver would not emit anything until it was "pinged" by an aligned transmitter ...
At that point, it would provide the sync signal. No ping, no sync signal and no reaper of an appropriate size to explore the citadel to notice it.
Just some keepers and at various times, some indoctrinated (and mentally compromised) organics ... prothean or other organics from that period.
So I look at the receiver as a prothean device ... probably based on an alpha relay (for range), but experimental ... capable of receive but not transmit.
Development of full up two-way capability was interrupted by the reaper invasion ... so the folks in the secret lab on Ilos had to work with what they had.
More accurate than large relays, because it was more focused, smaller and capable of creating a much smaller corridor, but lacking two-way transmission.
Ah, but element zero in the receiver! ... the whole farkin' citadel relies on element zero, one small ezo hot spot, among hundreds, is not ... noteworthy.
Is any of this official canon? Of course not. Just how I extrapolated from the info we were given by vigil and various codex entries.
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Post by burningcherry on Feb 21, 2020 20:43:43 GMT
After all, it's pretty well established that they "tidy up" the Citadel of everything else. Where?
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Post by AnDromedary on Feb 21, 2020 21:02:59 GMT
After all, it's pretty well established that they "tidy up" the Citadel of everything else. Where? It's mentioned by multiple characters that their primary function is to maintain the Citadel and that they go about and to preserve its state. Like Anderson, when he says "we put up an ugly new bulkhead and within a few days they make it seamless" (or something to that effect) or that couple on the bench that mentions how the keepers are somewhat inconvenient because they come into her quarters and just rearrange things. Well, I guess you could interpret all of this in such a way that they really only care about function of the systems but nothing else.
Still,between cycles, you'd assume the reapers make sure that nothing potentially dangerous to their scheme remains within the most critical structure to their plans. And quite apparently, the keepers (or whoever) cleaned up everything else. Otherwise the asari would have found sings of the invasion when they first discovered the Citadel, no?
As for @grinch 's point, sure, it's possible that they would not have noticed because they are so big but between them having indoctrinated servants, probably pretty decent scanners and sensors and - most importantly - the relays being their own tech, I still think it's a stretch that they just wouldn't have realized what this thing represents. I just think the conduit being there could have used a bit more explanation or at least some hand waving, lamp shading or whatever trope related verb one wants to use.
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Post by burningcherry on Feb 21, 2020 21:31:51 GMT
It's mentioned by multiple characters that their primary function is to maintain the Citadel and that they go about and to preserve its state. Like Anderson, when he says "we put up an ugly new bulkhead and within a few days they make it seamless" (or something to that effect) or that couple on the bench that mentions how the keepers are somewhat inconvenient because they come into her quarters and just rearrange things. Well, I guess you could interpret all of this in such a way that they really only care about function of the systems but nothing else. Still,between cycles, you'd assume the reapers make sure that nothing potentially dangerous to their scheme remains within the most critical structure to their plans. And quite apparently, the keepers (or whoever) cleaned up everything else. Otherwise the asari would have found sings of the invasion when they first discovered the Citadel, no?
As for @grinch 's point, sure, it's possible that they would not have noticed because they are so big but between them having indoctrinated servants, probably pretty decent scanners and sensors and - most importantly - the relays being their own tech, I still think it's a stretch that they just wouldn't have realized what this thing represents. I just think the conduit being there could have used a bit more explanation or at least some hand waving, lamp shading or whatever trope related verb one wants to use.
I'd assume that they leave some cultural elements between cycles to faciliate the spoof that the previous dominant race built the station.
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Post by AnDromedary on Feb 21, 2020 21:34:16 GMT
I'd assume that they leave some cultural elements between cycles to faciliate the spoof that the previous dominant race built the station. That's a nice idea.
But then, a functional miniature relay is a bit more than a cultural artifact, I'd think. It would really be more of a (retro-engineered) reaper artifact and that should be the last thing they want there.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 22, 2020 13:15:00 GMT
The reason for the little relay on the Citadel doesn't bother me, sure I like to know how/why it's there, but knowing that information has nothing to do with stopping Saren. Wouldn't it be funny if Shepard asks Vigil to give the reason for the relay on the Citadel, then as Shepard lands on the Citadel, the reapers have already arrived? Reapers win.
What I'm curious about is the asari themselves when they first found the Citadel. How well did they inspect the station before moving in? Even though the creatures they encounter are harmless, I still would investigate them. I would also be cautious because of their owners. How do they know the owners won't return? When inspecting the station, would they have seen the hole in the floor where Shepard meets the catalyst? If they did, would it have made an appearance? In ME1, Kaidan says he hears a low hum making his teeth tingle when near the relay. How many others experienced that? I would guess the asari had the big head. They're the first to find something, and they didn't want that feeling to go away. They did a quick inspection of the station, then made rules not to bother the creatures, and believed the relay is prothean art.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2020 14:51:25 GMT
The reason for the little relay on the Citadel doesn't bother me, sure I like to know how/why it's there, but knowing that information has nothing to do with stopping Saren. Wouldn't it be funny if Shepard asks Vigil to give the reason for the relay on the Citadel, then as Shepard lands on the Citadel, the reapers have already arrived? Reapers win. What I'm curious about is the asari themselves when they first found the Citadel. How well did they inspect the station before moving in? Even though the creatures they encounter are harmless, I still would investigate them. I would also be cautious because of their owners. How do they know the owners won't return? When inspecting the station, would they have seen the hole in the floor where Shepard meets the catalyst? If they did, would it have made an appearance? In ME1, Kaidan says he hears a low hum making his teeth tingle when near the relay. How many others experienced that? I would guess the asari had the big head. They're the first to find something, and they didn't want that feeling to go away. They did a quick inspection of the station, then made rules not to bother the creatures, and believed the relay is prothean art. Why the Asari didn't investigate the keepers is given by the couple talking in front of Sha-ira's... They just self-destruct whenever people disturb them. Chorban was the first to come up with a means of scanning them without disturbing them. So, while you're blaming the Asari for not trying to investigate them, it is quite likely that they did try and were unsuccessful, so rather than just abandon their great find (the Citadel), they opted to move in without fully understanding it... and made a law about disturbing the keepers just so people wouldn't have to witness them self-destructing on a daily basis and to curb the masochistic types who would probably walk around deliberately disturbing them just to see them blow up for fun.
ETA: I also suspect that the scanner tech Chorban and Jahleed stole from whatever company they were working for was the scanner technology being developed for the Andromeda Initiative.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 22, 2020 19:05:00 GMT
Chorban was the first to come up with a means of scanning them without disturbing them. Disturbing them? You mean scanning. There's nothing that says someone can't stand next to a keeper. Look at Shepard in ME3. Shepard can walk into that one keeper without it self-destructing. And yet when the keeper self destructs, it doesn't set off a bell in their heads that something is wrong? Why would they self destruct unless someone is hiding something? Since scanning causes them to self destruct, why can't the asari follow one of the keepers' in the tunnels to see where it goes? Doing that might give them answers about them.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2020 21:04:26 GMT
Chorban was the first to come up with a means of scanning them without disturbing them. Disturbing them? You mean scanning. There's nothing that says someone can't stand next to a keeper. Look at Shepard in ME3. Shepard can walk into that one keeper without it self-destructing. And yet when the keeper self destructs, it doesn't set off a bell in their heads that something is wrong? Why would they self destruct unless someone is hiding something? Since scanning causes them to self destruct, why can't the asari follow one of the keepers' in the tunnels to see where it goes? Doing that might give them answers about them. Standing next to a keeper is not the same as investigating them. The couple on the bench clearly says that they self-destruct if disturbed, and Chorban and Jahleed clearly indicate that the scannerr they're using is new tech (stolen new tech, in fact, and modified by them to suit the exact tash of scanning keepers). Chorban says that he doesn't think HIS scanning disturbs them, so whatever new tech is in that scanner is what has enabled the study of the keepers for the first time. You don't know whether or not the Asari tried to study them. You're just assuming they didn't because you love to spout off anti-Asari rhetoric here... so carry on... shrug. Why doesn't Shepard go a step beyond just scanning them for Chorban and follow a keeper around the Citadel Tower to see where it goes? Why does he/she just take it at face value that they self-destruct... why doesn't he try to disturb one to see what actually happens. Why doesn't Shepard do more to investigate why the Relay Statue makes Kaidan's teeth tingle? Why doesn't Shepard even think to give it a quick scan using the scanner that Chorban gave him/her? Had he/she done that, they might have found the Conduit without having to chase Saren all around the galaxy.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 24, 2020 11:58:32 GMT
Why doesn't Shepard go a step beyond just scanning them for Chorban and follow a keeper around the Citadel Tower to see where it goes? Why does he/she just take it at face value that they self-destruct... why doesn't he try to disturb one to see what actually happens. Why doesn't Shepard do more to investigate why the Relay Statue makes Kaidan's teeth tingle? Why doesn't Shepard even think to give it a quick scan using the scanner that Chorban gave him/her? Had he/she done that, they might have found the Conduit without having to chase Saren all around the galaxy. Yeah Shepard. What's wrong with you? Why didn't you do any of that? Shame on you. It was a missed opportunity for you to rub it in the faces of the asari. Shake it off because in about 3 years, the asari will come crawling to you to save their species because they were too pig-headed to reveal an artifact that could have ended a war earlier saving x number of lives
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Post by Addictress on Mar 2, 2020 3:57:42 GMT
K, after this most recent playthrough (after possibly years of not playing it) I'm really, really discouraged that I won't get to find out who the Benefactor is.
It's just like Bioware to cram the MOST INTRIGUING concepts into some tacked-on 5-minute scene following the main story.
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Post by Phantom on Mar 2, 2020 4:00:56 GMT
K, after this most recent playthrough (after possibly years of not playing it) I'm really, really discouraged that I won't get to find out who the Benefactor is. It's just like Bioware to cram the MOST INTRIGUING concepts into some tacked-on 5-minute scene following the main story. Well I am in the anyone but Cerberus camp for the Benefactor truly is/are.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 2, 2020 4:16:12 GMT
K, after this most recent playthrough (after possibly years of not playing it) I'm really, really discouraged that I won't get to find out who the Benefactor is. It's just like Bioware to cram the MOST INTRIGUING concepts into some tacked-on 5-minute scene following the main story. Well I am in the anyone but Cerberus camp for the Benefactor truly is/are. I’m still hoping it is a group of people with the term Mysterious Benefactor just being an alias for the group. Something like this:
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Mar 2, 2020 4:27:16 GMT
It's mentioned by multiple characters that their primary function is to maintain the Citadel and that they go about and to preserve its state. Like Anderson, when he says "we put up an ugly new bulkhead and within a few days they make it seamless" (or something to that effect) or that couple on the bench that mentions how the keepers are somewhat inconvenient because they come into her quarters and just rearrange things. Well, I guess you could interpret all of this in such a way that they really only care about function of the systems but nothing else. Still,between cycles, you'd assume the reapers make sure that nothing potentially dangerous to their scheme remains within the most critical structure to their plans. And quite apparently, the keepers (or whoever) cleaned up everything else. Otherwise the asari would have found sings of the invasion when they first discovered the Citadel, no?
As for @grinch 's point, sure, it's possible that they would not have noticed because they are so big but between them having indoctrinated servants, probably pretty decent scanners and sensors and - most importantly - the relays being their own tech, I still think it's a stretch that they just wouldn't have realized what this thing represents. I just think the conduit being there could have used a bit more explanation or at least some hand waving, lamp shading or whatever trope related verb one wants to use.
I'd assume that they leave some cultural elements between cycles to faciliate the spoof that the previous dominant race built the station. Yea hconsidering that it's said in ME1 tha teveryon ebelieves the Protheans buil tboth the Citadel and the relays it's quiet possible the ydo before Shep an dco learn the truth about the Reapers.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Mar 2, 2020 4:28:49 GMT
Well I am in the anyone but Cerberus camp for the Benefactor truly is/are. I’m still hoping it is a group of people with the term Mysterious Benefactor just being an alias for the group. Something like this: You mean simila rto what peopl ebelieved about the Shadow Broker at first.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 2, 2020 4:45:30 GMT
I’m still hoping it is a group of people with the term Mysterious Benefactor just being an alias for the group. Something like this: You mean simila rto what peopl ebelieved about the Shadow Broker at first. Basically, yeah like what Barla Von thought of the Shadow Broker. Though these individuals would have more influence on things than just secrets.
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Post by Zemgus on Mar 2, 2020 9:42:18 GMT
I would like the next player character to not be military. ME universe is wide enough for different sort of a experience from Shepard and Ryder. I would like to for example to play as someone who grew up in the Citadel, kind of like Mouse, and then as he gets older joins one of the gangs. Playing a member of the Cerberus would be cool too.
I would also like to see the original trilogy remastered. And if that happens there's two things I want: 1.) better character creator and 2.) Kai Leng companion and LI in ME2.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 23, 2020 14:00:55 GMT
And even if they missed it somehow, why wouldn't the keepers remove this foreign artifact? After all, it's pretty well established that they "tidy up" the Citadel of everything else. Maybe the Protheans were able to give some modifications so that the keepers would accept it as belonging and so ignore it. I'm sure we could come up with something to fill in the plot but it's not like consistency between the three parts of the trilogy is there. Cerberus, Alliance ranks (I had to reinvent it for a story I wrote), the actual motivations of the Reapers, making the Reapers little more than chess pieces (damn if they didn't sound like something crazy in ME1 only to learn in ME3 that they danced to the tune of the Catalyst), the abilities of Vanguards (which could probably have been an entirely new class in ME2), and more that's not coming to mind right now. If I were rebooting the MET (which I don't want to happen), the Catalyst would be gone. I might make the Reapers some sort of mechanism that galaxy created. Given the Lovecraftian vibe we get from the Derelict Reaper in ME2, perhaps they're something like ancient gods. The Reaper was sleeping rather than dead and even its dreams influenced those near it. Works with The Arrival and Leviathan. Alternately, a long dead race might have created them with a purpose and their original mission became distorted over time, or at least how they went about it. Rather than defeat the Reapers, which honestly has to be pretty much impossible, find evidence of what the Reapers are about and remind them how far they've strayed from their mission, actually working counter to it over the past billion years. Zemgus: You've seriously dropped down on my list for wanting anything positive with Kai Leng. He'd need to be seriously overhauled to have an actual personality beyond "evil bad guy".
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Post by Phantom on Mar 23, 2020 15:50:34 GMT
And even if they missed it somehow, why wouldn't the keepers remove this foreign artifact? After all, it's pretty well established that they "tidy up" the Citadel of everything else. Maybe the Protheans were able to give some modifications so that the keepers would accept it as belonging and so ignore it. I'm sure we could come up with something to fill in the plot but it's not like consistency between the three parts of the trilogy is there. Cerberus, Alliance ranks (I had to reinvent it for a story I wrote), the actual motivations of the Reapers, making the Reapers little more than chess pieces (damn if they didn't sound like something crazy in ME1 only to learn in ME3 that they danced to the tune of the Catalyst), the abilities of Vanguards (which could probably have been an entirely new class in ME2), and more that's not coming to mind right now. If I were rebooting the MET (which I don't want to happen), the Catalyst would be gone. I might make the Reapers some sort of mechanism that galaxy created. Given the Lovecraftian vibe we get from the Derelict Reaper in ME2, perhaps they're something like ancient gods. The Reaper was sleeping rather than dead and even its dreams influenced those near it. Works with The Arrival and Leviathan. Alternately, a long dead race might have created them with a purpose and their original mission became distorted over time, or at least how they went about it. Rather than defeat the Reapers, which honestly has to be pretty much impossible, find evidence of what the Reapers are about and remind them how far they've strayed from their mission, actually working counter to it over the past billion years. Zemgus : You've seriously dropped down on my list for wanting anything positive with Kai Leng. He'd need to be seriously overhauled to have an actual personality beyond "evil bad guy". Well If Kai Leng would return, there are at least an idea that I have floating that he gets un-indoctrinated by a member of another Cerberus Cell(that was in deep space and didn't get the indoctrinated). Well there will be a joke that he encounter Liara and was creep out her.
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Post by burningcherry on Mar 24, 2020 0:51:53 GMT
Zemgus : You've seriously dropped down on my list for wanting anything positive with Kai Leng. He'd need to be seriously overhauled to have an actual personality beyond "evil bad guy". He has a very interesting personality, just not in the game.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 24, 2020 2:31:11 GMT
Well If Kai Leng would return, there are at least an idea that I have floating that he gets un-indoctrinated by a member of another Cerberus Cell(that was in deep space and didn't get the indoctrinated). Ah yes, Leng, Kai, the wannabe assassin. However long ago I posted that he should try out for the Olympics as a gymnast with all the cartwheels he did when he faced Shepard. Anyways. Leng returns? Realizing he wasn't good at being an assassin, he figured he would be better off doing something that he really was good at, hair. He has the best hairstyle in the trilogy. In ME4, he decides to go into business as a hairstylist with his specialty being pony tails. He sets up shop on the Citadel. Shepard wanting a new hairstyle decides to give Leng a try. Once done, Shepard gives Leng an endorsement. I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite Hair Salon on the Citadel. I give the guy high marks for forcing the asari to fly on Kai Leng Airlines on Thessia.
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Post by Polka Dot on Mar 24, 2020 6:44:17 GMT
I'm still trying to figure out why the conduit terminal (receiver) on the Citadel needed to be built by any other species or cycle.
It is entirely plausible that it is an original fixture and permanent installation put there by the reapers. As an original part of the station, the keepers wouldn't mess with it. Part of their initial programming (before the protheans disrupted it) might have been to activate it, too, at the proper time - assuming it requires some sort of activation.
I've seen some discussion of the fact that the reapers themselves couldn't really enter the Citadel, but let's think this through for a moment. The Citadel has a permanent population of some 13M that would need to be harvested/cleared out somehow, without a trace left behind. The easiest way to do that would be with reaper creature shock troops, and the easiest way to get them there would be to use the handy dandy ideally located conduit terminal. Reaper troop transports and/or processing centers probably have terminals that link to the one on the Citadel.
Somewhere along the line, some prothean scientists figured out that the mini-relay artifact on the Citadel was an actual operational relay and started building a link to it.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 24, 2020 10:11:12 GMT
Zemgus : You've seriously dropped down on my list for wanting anything positive with Kai Leng. He'd need to be seriously overhauled to have an actual personality beyond "evil bad guy". He has a very interesting personality, just not in the game. I read the novels. Or was this in graphic novel form?
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