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Post by burningcherry on Feb 20, 2020 21:31:56 GMT
Are you asking me to headcanon a plot hole now? Not sure where you are getting with this. My point is that the fact that we never see a prothean reaper and that it would introduce a logical problem if there were one indicates that there probably isn't one. Sure, there could have been a prothean reaper. There could also have been a giant space clown who plays a planet sized trombone that gets the reapers to hold their ears shut until they can be killed Niftu Cal, the volus biotic god. That would be weird but we never see it, so it's not really a problem to think about. Huh? How can you say there isn't a prothean reaper? Knowing how they're made - and that they apparently make (at least?) one every cycle says to me that there very likely is a reaper made from protheans in the mix. Let's not forget that the prothean empire spanned the entire galaxy - were there even any advanced civilizations (harvestable) that were NOT part of the prothean empire during their cycle? I get that the appearance of the abomination at the end of ME2 is a little... misleading, but I just sort of write that off as it being in some sort of early larval stage. I fully expect that, had it been completed, it would have looked like all of the others. Every last reaper looks like leviathan, and we're told that each came from a different species/cycle. If each reaper ended up resembling its source species, each reaper should look very different. Either that, or every other species harvested looked like leviathan, but what's the likelihood of that?. IIRC, I think the catalyst says something about each reaper being purposely made in the image of the leviathan. Keep in mind, too, that some humans were being made into husks at the same time others were being harvested to create the reaper. I don't see any reason why they couldn't have transformed some protheans into collectors, some into other reaper creatures, and others be harvested for the prothean reaper. OR it's just that the core resembles the donor species and the shell is Leviathan-like.
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Post by AnDromedary on Feb 20, 2020 21:35:56 GMT
How do you know that they were more thorough in previous cycles? For all we know, the protheans found quite a few Inosannon artifacts. I never said they were more thorough just they were thorough enough. Well, you also said that they were made stupid. Given that we really can't judge very well the effort that it would take even the reapers to be even more thorough, this could also simply have been the most reasonable thing for them to do. From their perspective, they were probably thorough enough whichever way you look at it and they just REALLY got unlucky this time around (and even then, turns out there wasn't really a way for them to loose if it wasn't for another magic superweapon coming out of nowhere like the crucible).
The one thing I never understood about the whole reaper plan is this: Why is the conduit end-point still on the Citadel. This really never made sense to me for a number of reasons. First, wouldn't the reapers have detected it when they took over, realized what it truly was and - if we assume that they couldn't backtrace it to Ilos - at least remove this end o the conduit from the Citadel? And why don't the keepers remove it anyway, given that they remove pretty much everything else that doesn't belong? Plus, finding this end-point of the conduit, they must have realized that the protheans figured out how to build a relay and that there should be a counterpart somewhere. If they didn't find it on the worlds they conquered/destroyed, THAT should have given them an incentive to search further. It's like the reapers never noticed a new miniature size relay in the middle of their mouse trap space station and AFAIK it is never explained why.
So that's weird. Otherwise, I'll give the reapers a pass. The chain of events that ultimately lead to their downfall was dependent on a number of coincidences that the chance of all of them happening in one cycle couldn't have been predicted even by them.
Polka Dot : As I said in a later post above, it's been a while and I am a little rusty on the details but IIRC, the "one reaper per cycle" was never confirmed to be reliable in-universe information. I was actually agreeing with UpUp that if there was a prothean reaper, that retcon from the later gmes would have made Saren's need to seek out the Thorian in ME1 kinda pointless and it would yet be another inconsistency introduced into the universe. However, since we never get clear info either way, I am not particularly concerned with this. In other words, I don't really care if there is a prothean reaper or not. If you want to make the point that there probably was a prothean reaper and that for some reason it couldn't provide the cypher, that's perfectly valid as far as I am concerned.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 20, 2020 22:12:36 GMT
Well, you also said that they were made stupid. They had to be for this cycle to have a chance to stop them. If they went to each system in force, they win. If they destroyed the SR2 instead of the 2 shuttles, they win. They fire at the crucible destroying it, they win. The two destroyers on Tuchanka and Rannoch fire their beam of doom horizontally instead of vertically, they win. Harbinger fires it's beam of destroy at the SR2 during the what-the-crap evac scene, they win. They travel to the Milky Way before the events of ME1, they win.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2020 22:18:33 GMT
Don't remember who said that the reapers create a new one every cycle. If it wasn't a reaper, starkid or Leviathan, it's not necessarily reliable in-universe information. Otherwise, could also be that the cypher doesn't survive the reaperfication process or, again, it was a mess the later games created. I really don't understand why you are so eager to introduce this particular problem though. Again, what the Thorian was or was not capable of and how is never fully explained. Therefore, it's capabilities are in the hands of the writers. However, we see that Shiala got the prothean cypher from the Thorian and passed in on to Saren and Shepard. So you saying it's incapable of doing that is simply ... weird. Feros, Mars and the beacons and a whole lot of other prothean ruins and artifacts are all in ME1. The reapers were never that thourough from the get-go. Clearly, they rounded up everything they found out about but didn't manually search every planet in every system with a replay in every cycle. At least not to the extent where they'd detect an underground bunker with a few protheans in stasis. 1) It was Leviathan who said "Each harvest ends with the birth of a new Reaper. Perfect in its design. Each formed in Harbinger's image. Our image." I'm saying it wasn't a mess. "We are each a nation." can easily mean that each one of them encompases a civilization(s) that was harvested. I don't see a conflict here between ME1 and ME3... as much as you seem to want there to be a "F-up" in this regard that you can blame on the latter 2 games... just because you don't want to acknowledge that ME1 possibly F'd up when it imply that Sovereign could not have simply told Saren how the Protheans were and thought when they lived or how Sovereign could not have at least understood their language/method of communication enough to translate the message in the Prothean Beacons for him. Shiala exists because Bioware just had to insert yet another Asari mind F*ck into the game.
2) I never said that Shiala could not have obtained the Prothen Cipher from the Thorian. I'm saying the Thorian could not have obtained as much knowledge of the Protheans as Sovereign should have been able to obtain. The thorian was stuck on a single planet. What it would have witnessed of Prothean existence would have been limited to that planet. Sovereign was able to travel throughout the galaxy and observe in all their various walks of life on innumerable different planets. That alone would have given him a more complete understanding of the Prothean mind than the Thorian... and he should have been easily able to pass that knowledge directly onto Saren without Saren needing a cipher. Scientifically, it would have made more sense to have the 1st and 2nd beacons degraded in such a way that the crucial location was simply missing from them... and then have the third beacon fill in that missing bit of information.
3) Ruins yes, but the only place in ME1 where the game tells us there were Protheans who survived the harvest to see the Reapers retreat is on Ilos. Again, this is an error in ME1 in that, given their extensive knowledge of the galaxy and their stated intent of being absolutely thorough (which Vigil clearly says they were), there is no reason for them to have missed Ilos. There is no reason other than plot contrivance why the Ilos facility and the Protheans on it survived.
You can headcanon whatever you like to fill in the gaps. The game (ME1) does NOT fill in those gaps. The base error is still not in ME2 or ME3, but in ME1.
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Post by AnDromedary on Feb 20, 2020 23:33:01 GMT
Don't remember who said that the reapers create a new one every cycle. If it wasn't a reaper, starkid or Leviathan, it's not necessarily reliable in-universe information. Otherwise, could also be that the cypher doesn't survive the reaperfication process or, again, it was a mess the later games created. I really don't understand why you are so eager to introduce this particular problem though. Again, what the Thorian was or was not capable of and how is never fully explained. Therefore, it's capabilities are in the hands of the writers. However, we see that Shiala got the prothean cypher from the Thorian and passed in on to Saren and Shepard. So you saying it's incapable of doing that is simply ... weird. Feros, Mars and the beacons and a whole lot of other prothean ruins and artifacts are all in ME1. The reapers were never that thourough from the get-go. Clearly, they rounded up everything they found out about but didn't manually search every planet in every system with a replay in every cycle. At least not to the extent where they'd detect an underground bunker with a few protheans in stasis. 1) It was Leviathan who said "Each harvest ends with the birth of a new Reaper. Perfect in its design. Each formed in Harbinger's image. Our image." I'm saying it wasn't a mess. "We are each a nation." can easily mean that each one of them encompases a civilization(s) that was harvested. I don't see a conflict here between ME1 and ME3... as much as you seem to want there to be a "F-up" in this regard that you can blame on the latter 2 games... just because you don't want to acknowledge that ME1 possibly F'd up when it imply that Sovereign could not have simply told Saren how the Protheans were and thought when they lived or how Sovereign could not have at least understood their language/method of communication enough to translate the message in the Prothean Beacons for him. Shiala exists because Bioware just had to insert yet another Asari mind F*ck into the game.
2) I never said that Shiala could not have obtained the Prothen Cipher from the Thorian. I'm saying the Thorian could not have obtained as much knowledge of the Protheans as Sovereign should have been able to obtain. The thorian was stuck on a single planet. What it would have witnessed of Prothean existence would have been limited to that planet. Sovereign was able to travel throughout the galaxy and observe in all their various walks of life on innumerable different planets. That alone would have given him a more complete understanding of the Prothean mind than the Thorian... and he should have been easily able to pass that knowledge directly onto Saren without Saren needing a cipher. Scientifically, it would have made more sense to have the 1st and 2nd beacons degraded in such a way that the crucial location was simply missing from them... and then have the third beacon fill in that missing bit of information.
3) Ruins yes, but the only place in ME1 where the game tells us there were Protheans who survived the harvest to see the Reapers retreat is on Ilos. Again, this is an error in ME1 in that, given their extensive knowledge of the galaxy and their stated intent of being absolutely thorough (which Vigil clearly says they were), there is no reason for them to have missed Ilos. There is no reason other than plot contrivance why the Ilos facility and the Protheans on it survived.
You can headcanon whatever you like to fill in the gaps. The game (ME1) does NOT fill in those gaps. The base error is still not in ME2 or ME3, but in ME1.
I think there is a misunderstanding there between us. The cypher, the way I interpret it is not something you can just tell someone. Sovereign has observed the protheans extensively before and during the last harvest I assume, that's correct but that doesn't mean he should have had the cypher nor could he have "told" Saren. That's not what the cypher is about. The cypher is about how a species' consciousness works, how they interpret any stimulus around them and that is what is needed to fully understand the messages of the beacons. We humans have observed different anmial species for countess years and can tell each other probably all about their behaviors, activity patterns, etc. and of course make conclusions from that. But that doesn't mean that we understand what it is like for an insect to view the world through compound eyes or for a fish to "breathe water" through its gills or an owl to sense ultrasound.
We can learn about these things from the outside, sure, describe them, learn the biology behind them but it doesn't mean that we can interpret stimuli in the same way as they do. That - to me - is what the cypher is all about. It gives one (at least enough of) an understanding of how a prothean brain internally interprets stimuli and since the beacons are coding their signal to work with these kinds of interpretations, we need the cypher.
Sovereign can study and observe the protheans form the outside as long as he wants, he'll never get it this way. However, whatever happens in the Thorian sack, there is - according to Shiala - some sort of telepathic like connection between the Thorian and whoever is in the sack. I am not saying this is not space magic, it is but the Thorian is as they say "alien enough to defy conventional classification". So, we have this being that can make such telepathic connections and gain this sort of insight into how another species interprets signals. We can assume that back in the prothean cycle, it merged with a prothean at some point for whatever reason (i.e. put one in his sack, just like with Shiala) and thus gained their cypher and now he is giving it to her and she gives it to us.
I can see how you see a plot hole if you have a different idea of what the cypher is but to me, Shiala's description in ME1 immediately gave me the impression that it is what I described above and that Sovereign could not get it by observation from the outside. You may also think that the cypher, the way I see it is a pretty weird idea ... and it probably is but personally, I always though it was one of the more intriguing concepts in ME lore and I thought it made sense that there is a level of understanding a different species with different senses and perspectives that cannot be gained from observation alone. But that is a matter of taste.
I hope this also explains why I'd say a prothean reaper would be weird, (again, not a plot hole necessarily). Because that would be a being that should have their perspective or at least still some idea or memory of how the protheans sensed the world. But then maybe it wouldn't, who knows. The cypher is a concept that is far enough out there to give an author a lot of levay as to what is and isn't possible with it.
I hope this addresses your points 1 and 2, as for 3, it's not head canon to say that the reapers missed Ilos because it was a secret facility that barely anyone outside knew about. That's in the game. And nowhere in ME1 is it said how thorough or not thorough the reapers are in their sweep, especially where systems are concerned that do not have a prothean presence that is recorded on the Citadel (where the reapers would find it). Vigil says they cleared out all prothean systems that's it. In fact, he can't even know about any other systems because the only way for him to get any information in the first place would be through the beacons, which would only be in places where the protheans were established.
Now, as I wrote further above, there is a big plot hole in ME1 and that's the conduit-relay on the Citadel. To me, why the reapers would just ignore that, that's the question that really would have needed more explanation, especially because if the reapers would have just removed it from the Citadel it would have prevented the later interference by the Ilos researchers and the fact that they didn't come across a counterpart for the citadel end-point should have given the reapers a hint that they really did miss something.
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Post by Polka Dot on Feb 20, 2020 23:59:48 GMT
Polka Dot : As I said in a later post above, it's been a while and I am a little rusty on the details but IIRC, the "one reaper per cycle" was never confirmed to be reliable in-universe information. I was actually agreeing with UpUp that if there was a prothean reaper, that retcon from the later gmes would have made Saren's need to seek out the Thorian in ME1 kinda pointless and it would yet be another inconsistency introduced into the universe. However, since we never get clear info either way, I am not particularly concerned with this. In other words, I don't really care if there is a prothean reaper or not.If you want to make the point that there probably was a prothean reaper and that for some reason it couldn't provide the cypher, that's perfectly valid as far as I am concerned. Appreciate the clarification. I did a bit of snooping, and both the catalyst and leviathan are pretty clear that all reapers are created (from other species) in the image of the leviathan. We don't really know the source of any of them, except that Harbinger was created from the leviathan. And I don't know that the "one reaper per cycle" business was ever definitively validated - I think it was one of those "theories" that just sort of became a widely accepted part of the lore. It doesn't make much sense under any analysis - if their goal was to preserve life, why wouldn't they also create reapers from asari, turians, salarians, etc.? If not Sovereign-class capital ships, then destroyers or something. But then, there's a lot about the reapers - and the plots - that doesn't stand up to much scrutiny.
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Post by Polka Dot on Feb 21, 2020 0:08:38 GMT
Now, as I wrote further above, there is a big plot hole in ME1 and that's the conduit-relay on the Citadel. To me, why the reapers would just ignore that, that's the question that really would have needed more explanation, especially because if the reapers would have just removed it from the Citadel it would have prevented the later interference by the Ilos researchers and the fact that they didn't come across a counterpart for the citadel end-point should have given the reapers a hint that they really did miss something. I've suggested that "sculpture" on the Citadel was reaper-built and left there intentionally. The conduit developed by the protheans simply linked to it. I can see some use for a small-scale relay terminator in that space on the Citadel - great way to deliver shock troops to harvest Citadel inhabitants. The reapers could then have the transmitters in the facilities where they convert their troops.
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Post by AnDromedary on Feb 21, 2020 0:19:10 GMT
Polka Dot : As I said in a later post above, it's been a while and I am a little rusty on the details but IIRC, the "one reaper per cycle" was never confirmed to be reliable in-universe information. I was actually agreeing with UpUp that if there was a prothean reaper, that retcon from the later gmes would have made Saren's need to seek out the Thorian in ME1 kinda pointless and it would yet be another inconsistency introduced into the universe. However, since we never get clear info either way, I am not particularly concerned with this. In other words, I don't really care if there is a prothean reaper or not.If you want to make the point that there probably was a prothean reaper and that for some reason it couldn't provide the cypher, that's perfectly valid as far as I am concerned. Appreciate the clarification. I did a bit of snooping, and both the catalyst and leviathan are pretty clear that all reapers are created (from other species) in the image of the leviathan. We don't really know the source of any of them, except that Harbinger was created from the leviathan. And I don't know that the "one reaper per cycle" business was ever definitively validated - I think it was one of those "theories" that just sort of became a widely accepted part of the lore. It doesn't make much sense under any analysis - if their goal was to preserve life, why wouldn't they also create reapers from asari, turians, salarians, etc.? If not Sovereign-class capital ships, then destroyers or something. But then, there's a lot about the reapers - and the plots - that doesn't stand up to much scrutiny. Yea, actually, it just occurs to me that I am stupid. Because even if there was a prothean reaper with the cypher, by the time of ME1, it would also be out in dark space, so it wouldn't even be useful to Sovereign and Saren. So really, there is no problem with that concept at all.
As for the reapers leaving the conduit relay. Hmmmm, I always though the conduit, just being a miniature mass relay was weird anyway. I mean, usually, if you make a prototype of soimething, it should look different to an extremely polished product (like we should assume the mass relays are). Also, usually, prototypes are bigger than the end product, not smaller. As I said, I think the shape of the conduit and how it works is a bit of a flaw in ME1.
As for the reapers (and them being necessarily stupid as themikefest said), actually, I remember before I saw the ME3 ending for the first time, I was convinced that the reapers wanted to give us a chance to win. Why? No idea, maybe they were actually testing the cycles or whatnot but without knowing the outcome, one definitely got the impression that they built very deliberate flaws into their cycles, waiting to be exploited eventually. I would have bet money on the crucible being actually provided by the reapers for us to use for some reason. Glad I didn't though, would have lost.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 1:47:27 GMT
1) It was Leviathan who said "Each harvest ends with the birth of a new Reaper. Perfect in its design. Each formed in Harbinger's image. Our image." I'm saying it wasn't a mess. "We are each a nation." can easily mean that each one of them encompases a civilization(s) that was harvested. I don't see a conflict here between ME1 and ME3... as much as you seem to want there to be a "F-up" in this regard that you can blame on the latter 2 games... just because you don't want to acknowledge that ME1 possibly F'd up when it imply that Sovereign could not have simply told Saren how the Protheans were and thought when they lived or how Sovereign could not have at least understood their language/method of communication enough to translate the message in the Prothean Beacons for him. Shiala exists because Bioware just had to insert yet another Asari mind F*ck into the game.
2) I never said that Shiala could not have obtained the Prothen Cipher from the Thorian. I'm saying the Thorian could not have obtained as much knowledge of the Protheans as Sovereign should have been able to obtain. The thorian was stuck on a single planet. What it would have witnessed of Prothean existence would have been limited to that planet. Sovereign was able to travel throughout the galaxy and observe in all their various walks of life on innumerable different planets. That alone would have given him a more complete understanding of the Prothean mind than the Thorian... and he should have been easily able to pass that knowledge directly onto Saren without Saren needing a cipher. Scientifically, it would have made more sense to have the 1st and 2nd beacons degraded in such a way that the crucial location was simply missing from them... and then have the third beacon fill in that missing bit of information.
3) Ruins yes, but the only place in ME1 where the game tells us there were Protheans who survived the harvest to see the Reapers retreat is on Ilos. Again, this is an error in ME1 in that, given their extensive knowledge of the galaxy and their stated intent of being absolutely thorough (which Vigil clearly says they were), there is no reason for them to have missed Ilos. There is no reason other than plot contrivance why the Ilos facility and the Protheans on it survived.
You can headcanon whatever you like to fill in the gaps. The game (ME1) does NOT fill in those gaps. The base error is still not in ME2 or ME3, but in ME1.
I think there is a misunderstanding there. The cypher, they way I interpret it is not something you can just tell somenoe. Sovereign has observed the protheans extensively before and during the last harvest I assume, that's correct but that doesn't mean he should have had the cypher not could he have "told" Saren. That's not what the cypher is about. The cypher is about how a species' consciousness works, how they interpret any stimulus around them and that is what is needed to fully understand the messages of the beacons. We humans have observed different anmial species for countess years and can tell each other probably all about their behaviors, activity patterns, etc. and of course make conclusions from that. But that doesn't mean that we understand what it is like for an insect to view the world through compound eyes or for a fish to "breathe water" through its gills or an owl to sense ultrasound.
We can learn about these things from the outside, sure, describe them, learn the biology behind them but it doesn't mean that we can interpret stimuli in the same way as they do. That - to me - is what the cypher is all about. It gives one (at least enough of) an understanding of how a prothean brain internally interprets stimuli and since the beacons are coding their signal to work with these kinds of interpretations, we need the cypher.
Sovereign can study and observe the protheans form the outside as long as he wants, he'll never get it this way. However, whatever happens in the Thorian sack, there is - according to Shiala some sort of telepathic like connection between the Thorian and whoever is in the sack. I am not saying this is not space magic, it is but the Thorian is as they say "alien enough to defy conventional classification". So, we have this being that can make such telepathic connections and gain this sort of insight into how another species interprets signals. We can assume that back in the prothean cycle, it merged with a prothean at some point for whatever reason (i.e. put one in his sack, just like with Shiala) and thus gained their cypher and now he is giving it to her and she gives it to us.
I can see how you see a plot hole if you have a different idea of what the cypher is but to me, Shiala's description in ME1 immediately gave me the impression that it is what I described above and that Sovereign could not get it by observation from the outside. You may also think that the cypher, the way I see it is a pretty weird idea ... and it probably is but personally, I always though it was one of the more intriguing concepts in ME lore and I thought it made sense that there is a level of understanding a different species with different senses and perspectives that cannot be gained from observation alone. But that is a matter of taste.
I hope this also explains why I'd say a prothean reaper would be weird, (again, not a plot hole necessarily). Because that would be a being that should have their perspective or at least still some idea or memory of how the protheans sensed the world. But then maybe it wouldn't, who knows. The cypher is a concept that is far enough out there to give an author a lot of levay as to what is and isn't possible with it.
I hope this addresses your points 1 and 2, as for 3, it's not head canon to say that the reapers missed Ilos, it's in the because it was a secret facility that barely anyone outside knew about. That's in the game. And nowhere in ME1 is it said how thorough or not thorough the reapers are in their sweep, especially where systems are concerned that do not have a prothean presence that is recorded on the Citadel (where the reapers would find it). Vigil says they cleared out all prothean systems that's it. In fact, he can't even know about any other systems because the only way for him to get any information in the first place would be through the beacons, which would only be in places where the protheans were established.
Now, as I wrote further above, there is a big plot hole in ME1 and that's the conduit-relay on the Citadel. To me, why the reapers would just ignore that, that's the question that really would have needed more explanation, especially because if the reapers would have just removed it from the Citadel it would have prevented the later interference by the Ilos researchers and the fact that they didn't come across a counterpart for the citadel end-point should have given the reapers a hint that they really did miss something.
Again, it is still not knowledge the Thorian should have access to that Sovereign (who can also control minds and create thralls) does not have available to him directly and with a greater sample base of Prothean minds to go from than the Thorian (who is stuck on a single planet). The Thorian is not demonstrated to have any skill that Sovereign himself does not have. Saren does not need the Thorian to have access to an understanding of how Prothean minds work. Sovereign should know how Prothean minds work already. He helped harvest them (regardless of whether or not a Reaper was created). He helped covert them into Collectors. He had to have knowledge of how their minds worked.
You're taking exception to my use of the verb "told"; but the game tells us that Sovereign is totally inside Saren's head as well... on a much deeper level than an Asari mind-F(uck is. Sovereign can impart the whole experience of being a Prothean into Saren's head. Saren does not need the Thorian and Shiala as go betweens. Alternatively, Sovereign could pluck the vision out of Saren's head and interpret it himself... and he should be able to recognize an image of Ilos since he knows the galaxy far better than either Liara or Shepard does.
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Post by sassafrassa on Feb 21, 2020 2:34:31 GMT
[quote source="/post/1340353/thread" timestamp="1582218094" author="@upagain" My point is highlighted in your response. ME2 does have depth...
[/quote] Yes, it does have depth, but that depth is not universal. Otherwise, regarding the rest of your post, we are going to have to agree to disagree. Have fun.
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Post by AnDromedary on Feb 21, 2020 3:14:33 GMT
I think there is a misunderstanding there. The cypher, they way I interpret it is not something you can just tell somenoe. Sovereign has observed the protheans extensively before and during the last harvest I assume, that's correct but that doesn't mean he should have had the cypher not could he have "told" Saren. That's not what the cypher is about. The cypher is about how a species' consciousness works, how they interpret any stimulus around them and that is what is needed to fully understand the messages of the beacons. We humans have observed different anmial species for countess years and can tell each other probably all about their behaviors, activity patterns, etc. and of course make conclusions from that. But that doesn't mean that we understand what it is like for an insect to view the world through compound eyes or for a fish to "breathe water" through its gills or an owl to sense ultrasound.
We can learn about these things from the outside, sure, describe them, learn the biology behind them but it doesn't mean that we can interpret stimuli in the same way as they do. That - to me - is what the cypher is all about. It gives one (at least enough of) an understanding of how a prothean brain internally interprets stimuli and since the beacons are coding their signal to work with these kinds of interpretations, we need the cypher.
Sovereign can study and observe the protheans form the outside as long as he wants, he'll never get it this way. However, whatever happens in the Thorian sack, there is - according to Shiala some sort of telepathic like connection between the Thorian and whoever is in the sack. I am not saying this is not space magic, it is but the Thorian is as they say "alien enough to defy conventional classification". So, we have this being that can make such telepathic connections and gain this sort of insight into how another species interprets signals. We can assume that back in the prothean cycle, it merged with a prothean at some point for whatever reason (i.e. put one in his sack, just like with Shiala) and thus gained their cypher and now he is giving it to her and she gives it to us.
I can see how you see a plot hole if you have a different idea of what the cypher is but to me, Shiala's description in ME1 immediately gave me the impression that it is what I described above and that Sovereign could not get it by observation from the outside. You may also think that the cypher, the way I see it is a pretty weird idea ... and it probably is but personally, I always though it was one of the more intriguing concepts in ME lore and I thought it made sense that there is a level of understanding a different species with different senses and perspectives that cannot be gained from observation alone. But that is a matter of taste.
I hope this also explains why I'd say a prothean reaper would be weird, (again, not a plot hole necessarily). Because that would be a being that should have their perspective or at least still some idea or memory of how the protheans sensed the world. But then maybe it wouldn't, who knows. The cypher is a concept that is far enough out there to give an author a lot of levay as to what is and isn't possible with it.
I hope this addresses your points 1 and 2, as for 3, it's not head canon to say that the reapers missed Ilos, it's in the because it was a secret facility that barely anyone outside knew about. That's in the game. And nowhere in ME1 is it said how thorough or not thorough the reapers are in their sweep, especially where systems are concerned that do not have a prothean presence that is recorded on the Citadel (where the reapers would find it). Vigil says they cleared out all prothean systems that's it. In fact, he can't even know about any other systems because the only way for him to get any information in the first place would be through the beacons, which would only be in places where the protheans were established.
Now, as I wrote further above, there is a big plot hole in ME1 and that's the conduit-relay on the Citadel. To me, why the reapers would just ignore that, that's the question that really would have needed more explanation, especially because if the reapers would have just removed it from the Citadel it would have prevented the later interference by the Ilos researchers and the fact that they didn't come across a counterpart for the citadel end-point should have given the reapers a hint that they really did miss something.
Again, it is still not knowledge the Thorian should have access to that Sovereign (who can also control minds and create thralls) does not have available to him directly and with a greater sample base of Prothean minds to go from than the Thorian (who is stuck on a single planet). The Thorian is not demonstrated to have any skill that Sovereign himself does not have. Saren does not need the Thorian to have access to an understanding of how Prothean minds work. Sovereign should know how Prothean minds work already. He helped harvest them (regardless of whether or not a Reaper was created). He helped covert them into Collectors. He had to have knowledge of how their minds worked.
You're taking exception to my use of the verb "told"; but the game tells us that Sovereign is totally inside Saren's head as well... on a much deeper level than an Asari mind-F(uck is. Sovereign can impart the whole experience of being a Prothean into Saren's head. Saren does not need the Thorian and Shiala as go betweens. Alternatively, Sovereign could pluck the vision out of Saren's head and interpret it himself... and he should be able to recognize an image of Ilos since he knows the galaxy far better than either Liara or Shepard does.
Indoctrination doesn't transfer the cypher, whatever the Thorian does does (as does asari mind melding). Indoctrination is not a mind meld or something similar, the codex says that it is achieved through electromagnetic fields as well as infra- and ultrasound. What exactly happens when the Thorian "envelops" a creature is not really explained.
So the fact that one process can transfer the cypher while the other can't is perfectly reasonable since they are different things that rely on different mechanisms (one probably biological, the other technological. Since the game tells us that this is the case, I don't understand how you can say that for some reason Sovereign should have the ability to gain the cypher directly.
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 21, 2020 4:13:59 GMT
Again, it is still not knowledge the Thorian should have access to that Sovereign (who can also control minds and create thralls) does not have available to him directly and with a greater sample base of Prothean minds to go from than the Thorian (who is stuck on a single planet). The Thorian is not demonstrated to have any skill that Sovereign himself does not have. Saren does not need the Thorian to have access to an understanding of how Prothean minds work. Sovereign should know how Prothean minds work already. He helped harvest them (regardless of whether or not a Reaper was created). He helped covert them into Collectors. He had to have knowledge of how their minds worked. You're taking exception to my use of the verb "told"; but the game tells us that Sovereign is totally inside Saren's head as well... on a much deeper level than an Asari mind-F(uck is. Sovereign can impart the whole experience of being a Prothean into Saren's head. Saren does not need the Thorian and Shiala as go betweens. Alternatively, Sovereign could pluck the vision out of Saren's head and interpret it himself... and he should be able to recognize an image of Ilos since he knows the galaxy far better than either Liara or Shepard does.
Indoctrination doesn't transfer the cypher, whatever the Thorian does does (as does asari mind melding. Indoctrination is not a mind meld or something, the codex says that it is achieved through electromagnetic fields as well as infra- and ultrasound. What exactly happens when the Thorian "envelops" a creature is not really explained. So the fact that one process can transfer the cypher while the other can't is perfectly reasonable since they are different things that rely on different mechanisms (one probably biological, the other technological. Since the game tells us that this is the case, I don't understand how you can say that for some reason Sovereign should have the ability to gain the cypher directly.
I've always considered Indoctrination a kind of mind sharing (or an organic mind being pulled into a collective with a Reaper), where the Reaper mind eventually overwhelms the organic's. That implies that all of the organic's mind becomes part of Reaper mind, including the cypher. Not sure how far along Saren was though.
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Post by AnDromedary on Feb 21, 2020 4:52:45 GMT
Indoctrination doesn't transfer the cypher, whatever the Thorian does does (as does asari mind melding. Indoctrination is not a mind meld or something, the codex says that it is achieved through electromagnetic fields as well as infra- and ultrasound. What exactly happens when the Thorian "envelops" a creature is not really explained. So the fact that one process can transfer the cypher while the other can't is perfectly reasonable since they are different things that rely on different mechanisms (one probably biological, the other technological. Since the game tells us that this is the case, I don't understand how you can say that for some reason Sovereign should have the ability to gain the cypher directly.
I've always considered Indoctrination a kind of mind sharing (or an organic mind being pulled into a collective with a Reaper), where the Reaper mind eventually overwhelms the organic's. That implies that all of the organic's mind becomes part of Reaper mind, including the cypher. Not sure how far along Saren was though. That's not really how it is described in the codex though.
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 21, 2020 5:26:22 GMT
I've always considered Indoctrination a kind of mind sharing (or an organic mind being pulled into a collective with a Reaper), where the Reaper mind eventually overwhelms the organic's. That implies that all of the organic's mind becomes part of Reaper mind, including the cypher. Not sure how far along Saren was though. That's not really how it is described in the codex though. The codex explains what is known in universe, but if you'll notice, the explanation is more a description, and not an understanding of what Indoctrination is. Consider the derelict Reaper in ME2 - why is everyone sharing memories, to the point where they cannot even tell which are their own? Imagine that, but with a Reaper mind in the mix. Why would organics hear voices, be susceptible to suggestion, and then ultimately be rendered into a vegetative state. It happens because they start sharing thoughts and ideas, and eventually can't even think for themselves. Anyway - just my theory.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 21, 2020 6:23:16 GMT
The codex explains what is known in universe, but if you'll notice, the explanation is more a description, and not an understanding of what Indoctrination is. Consider the derelict Reaper in ME2 - why is everyone sharing memories, to the point where they cannot even tell which are their own? Imagine that, but with a Reaper mind in the mix. Why would organics hear voices, be susceptible to suggestion, and then ultimately be rendered into a vegetative state. It happens because they start sharing thoughts and ideas, and eventually can't even think for themselves. Anyway - just my theory. Makes sense. After all the Reapers themselves operate similarly. Legion tells us about all the programs in Sovereign calling themselves Nazara and forming a gestalt intellect. Then the Catalyst says that all the Reapers are a part of him, with an idea that as more Reapers are made the smarter he gets in order to find a better solution. Like indoctrinated people, the Reapers have individual personalities but also are indoctrinated to fulfill the Catalyst’s mission hence why none defect. They just manage to hold onto their individual identities within the collective instead of being consumed by it.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Feb 21, 2020 13:05:42 GMT
Soooo, the asari become an all male race instead? Oh, watch the shit hit the fan then.....
Instead of the genophage being used on the krogan, it was used on the asari preventing them from mating with other species 👆This.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Feb 21, 2020 13:09:11 GMT
Could ME1 t'soni be removed? Is there an explanation given on who told Saren about Ilos? If he didn't need t'soni, why did Shepard? Shepard could use the Saren way. Only if UNC: Hades' Dogs results in the definitive end for Cerberus. Only if the Imperium replaces them. And you can play as a Space Marine.
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Post by burningcherry on Feb 21, 2020 14:21:35 GMT
The Codex says "CAPITAL SHIPS are Sovereign-class Reapers two kilometers in length. […] Experts believe the Reapers harvest a single species of organics during each cycle of extinction to create these massive ships. […] DESTROYERS are 160 meters long and, in astounding numbers, make up the bulk of the Reaper fleet. […] Research suggests destroyers are created from those species that are not harvested to make capital ships. " (Codex/The Reapers/Reaper Variants). "Expert believe" and "research suggests" is a narrative sugar for "it's true but we can't provide a way they could know about this for sure".
The Reapers purposefully leave some remnants of a harvested civilization. Sovereign: "Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays, our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire.". The extinct races are a medium of this providing that hides its actual purpose. The purpose it to speed up the cycle and simplify the harvest: everyone is at a vaguely known location, using weapons Reaper ships are resistant to. That's why the four fleets needed to destroy Sovereign dropped to four dreadnoughts with Thanix cannons per a capital Reaper after Sovereign's remnants were examined.
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Post by Phantom on Feb 21, 2020 17:19:14 GMT
Only if UNC: Hades' Dogs results in the definitive end for Cerberus. Only if the Imperium replaces them. And you can play as a Space Marine. It would be funny due to the hyper violence of Warhammer 40K that many members here would rather have Cerberus than Imperium due to how Grimdark Imperium can be even compared to entire Mass Effect Lore.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 17:40:32 GMT
The Codex says "CAPITAL SHIPS are Sovereign-class Reapers two kilometers in length. […] Experts believe the Reapers harvest a single species of organics during each cycle of extinction to create these massive ships. […] DESTROYERS are 160 meters long and, in astounding numbers, make up the bulk of the Reaper fleet. […] Research suggests destroyers are created from those species that are not harvested to make capital ships. " (Codex/The Reapers/Reaper Variants). "Expert believe" and "reaserch suggests" is a narrative sugar for "it's true but we can't provide a way they could know about this for sure". The Reapers purposefully leave some remnants of a harvested civilization. Sovereign: "Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays, our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire.". The extinct races are a medium of this providing that hides its actual purpose. The purpose it to speed up the cycle and simplify the harvest: everyone is at a vaguely known location, using weapons Reaper ships are resistant to. That's why the four fleets needed to destroy Sovereign dropped to four dreadnoughts with Thanix cannons per a capital Reaper after Sovereign's remnants were examined. What that's saying to me then is that, in the MET cycle, humans were being harvested to make a capital ship and the turians, asari, krogan, volus,, etc. were being harvested to make destroyer class reapers. It still suggests that there is a least one ship, either a destroyer or a capital one, within the Reaper ranks that was made from Protheans and, per ME3 at least, preserves and encompasses everything the Protheans were (to quote Shiala - "the essence of being a Prothean). So, Sovereign should have known how to interpret the beacons without the need for the Thorian and Shiala, particularly since Saren was indoctrinated by Sovereign enough that Sovereign could sense when Saren's resolved waned slightly and compel Saren to then allow Sovereign to implant him.
Are you suggesting that they left the conduit in place intentionally and that the keepers were programmed to leave it be on the Citadel as well? However, that even strengthens my argument that Sovereign then should have just known where it was located and been able to direct Saren there immediately.
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Post by AnDromedary on Feb 21, 2020 17:42:50 GMT
The codex explains what is known in universe, but if you'll notice, the explanation is more a description, and not an understanding of what Indoctrination is. Consider the derelict Reaper in ME2 - why is everyone sharing memories, to the point where they cannot even tell which are their own? Imagine that, but with a Reaper mind in the mix. Why would organics hear voices, be susceptible to suggestion, and then ultimately be rendered into a vegetative state. It happens because they start sharing thoughts and ideas, and eventually can't even think for themselves. Anyway - just my theory. I can see in theory how with very well targeted and sophisticated deep brain stimulation you could people make hear voices that aren't there or make them more susceptible to certain suggestions. The shared memories are a good point for sure though (though that's in ME2 again ).
In the end, my only real argument in this thread though was that indoctrination works, using different mechanisms than the Thorian envelopment thing or an asari mind meld. Therefore, I find it perfectly logical to stipulate that one can transfer the cypher while the other cannot and therefore the Thorian plotline is valid (that's what I was discussing with UpUp and what started all this). I grant you that everything beyond that is pretty speculative.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Feb 21, 2020 17:57:59 GMT
The Codex says "CAPITAL SHIPS are Sovereign-class Reapers two kilometers in length. […] Experts believe the Reapers harvest a single species of organics during each cycle of extinction to create these massive ships. […] DESTROYERS are 160 meters long and, in astounding numbers, make up the bulk of the Reaper fleet. […] Research suggests destroyers are created from those species that are not harvested to make capital ships. " (Codex/The Reapers/Reaper Variants). "Expert believe" and "reaserch suggests" is a narrative sugar for "it's true but we can't provide a way they could know about this for sure". The Reapers purposefully leave some remnants of a harvested civilization. Sovereign: "Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays, our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire.". The extinct races are a medium of this providing that hides its actual purpose. The purpose it to speed up the cycle and simplify the harvest: everyone is at a vaguely known location, using weapons Reaper ships are resistant to. That's why the four fleets needed to destroy Sovereign dropped to four dreadnoughts with Thanix cannons per a capital Reaper after Sovereign's remnants were examined. What that's saying to me then is that, in the MET cycle, humans were being harvested to make a capital ship and the turians, asari, krogan, volus,, etc. were being harvested to make destroyer class reapers. It still suggests that there is a least one ship, either a destroyer or a capital one, within the Reaper ranks that was made from Protheans and, per ME3 at least, preserves and encompasses everything the Protheans were (to quote Shiala - "the essence of being a Prothean). So, Sovereign should have known how to interpret the beacons without the need for the Thorian and Shiala, particularly since Saren was indoctrinated by Sovereign enough that Sovereign could sense when Saren's resolved waned slightly and compel Saren to then allow Sovereign to implant him.
Are you suggesting that they left the conduit in place intentionally and that the keepers were programmed to leave it be on the Citadel as well? However, that even strengthens my argument that Sovereign then should have just known where it was located and been able to direct Saren there immediately.
It's possible the Reapres did as maybe they thought in a given situation the ycould use i tthemselves to get troops onto the Citadel to seize control of it.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 21, 2020 18:59:56 GMT
What that's saying to me then is that, in the MET cycle, humans were being harvested to make a capital ship and the turians, asari, krogan, volus,, etc. were being harvested to make destroyer class reapers. It still suggests that there is a least one ship, either a destroyer or a capital one, within the Reaper ranks that was made from Protheans and, per ME3 at least, preserves and encompasses everything the Protheans were (to quote Shiala - "the essence of being a Prothean). So, Sovereign should have known how to interpret the beacons without the need for the Thorian and Shiala, particularly since Saren was indoctrinated by Sovereign enough that Sovereign could sense when Saren's resolved waned slightly and compel Saren to then allow Sovereign to implant him.
Are you suggesting that they left the conduit in place intentionally and that the keepers were programmed to leave it be on the Citadel as well? However, that even strengthens my argument that Sovereign then should have just known where it was located and been able to direct Saren there immediately.
It's possible the Reapres did as maybe they thought in a given situation the ycould use i tthemselves to get troops onto the Citadel to seize control of it. I'm certain the game is simply playing that reveal straight, that it's simply a recreation of the relays made by the Protheans. The only way its existence makes sense though is if the Protheans were messing about with this technology and simply had it in place long before the actual invasion. It's just a good thing the reapers were too daft to notice this thing sitting there, or figure out what it paired to, even though Ilos has a big ass relay-like structure sticking out of the ground.
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Post by burningcherry on Feb 21, 2020 19:14:08 GMT
The Codex says "CAPITAL SHIPS are Sovereign-class Reapers two kilometers in length. […] Experts believe the Reapers harvest a single species of organics during each cycle of extinction to create these massive ships. […] DESTROYERS are 160 meters long and, in astounding numbers, make up the bulk of the Reaper fleet. […] Research suggests destroyers are created from those species that are not harvested to make capital ships. " (Codex/The Reapers/Reaper Variants). "Expert believe" and "reaserch suggests" is a narrative sugar for "it's true but we can't provide a way they could know about this for sure". The Reapers purposefully leave some remnants of a harvested civilization. Sovereign: "Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays, our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire.". The extinct races are a medium of this providing that hides its actual purpose. The purpose it to speed up the cycle and simplify the harvest: everyone is at a vaguely known location, using weapons Reaper ships are resistant to. That's why the four fleets needed to destroy Sovereign dropped to four dreadnoughts with Thanix cannons per a capital Reaper after Sovereign's remnants were examined. What that's saying to me then is that, in the MET cycle, humans were being harvested to make a capital ship and the turians, asari, krogan, volus,, etc. were being harvested to make destroyer class reapers. It still suggests that there is a least one ship, either a destroyer or a capital one, within the Reaper ranks that was made from Protheans and, per ME3 at least, preserves and encompasses everything the Protheans were (to quote Shiala - "the essence of being a Prothean). So, Sovereign should have known how to interpret the beacons without the need for the Thorian and Shiala, particularly since Saren was indoctrinated by Sovereign enough that Sovereign could sense when Saren's resolved waned slightly and compel Saren to then allow Sovereign to implant him. EDI speculates during the "human Reaper" conversation that turning the Protheans into a Reaper has failed. Even if it did not, the Reaper that had the Cipher would be deep in the Dark Space and not reachable by Sovereign. I'm suggesting they didn't know about the sender part and did not realize the purpose of the receiver.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Feb 21, 2020 19:26:01 GMT
It's possible the Reapres did as maybe they thought in a given situation the ycould use i tthemselves to get troops onto the Citadel to seize control of it. I'm certain the game is simply playing that reveal straight, that it's simply a recreation of the relays made by the Protheans. The only way its existence makes sense though is if the Protheans were messing about with this technology and simply had it in place long before the actual invasion. It's just a good thing the reapers were too daft to notice this thing sitting there, or figure out what it paired to, even though Ilos has a big ass relay-like structure sticking out of the ground. Yeah I'm fairly certain of that too I was just offering a potenrtial alternative explanation as to why the reapers may have chosen to leave it. Especially that by the time our Reaper War begins they already know thanks to Saren and Sovereign where the other end is.
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