Polka Dot
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Post by Polka Dot on Feb 1, 2020 19:26:54 GMT
Sure, but the same wouldn’t be true of a couple Turians trying to get back to Palaven from the Terminus. The initiative’ s a pretty small percentage of the galactic population, most of which would probably still prefer a simple commute vs. a life-altering journey. a small percentage, yeah, but it's also comprised of people willing to give up EVERYTHING to settle in a new place. They knew this was a one-way trip for them. Even if they turned around and went home, everyone they knew before would be gone, and the galaxy will have changed in who knows how many ways. How many more people would there be willing to make a shorter journey? One that would only take a few weeks, months, or perhaps even years to settle a world they theoretically COULD leave, even if it's a pretty long trip? Human history already confirms there have been people with that kind of commitment. What's the motivation? As I've mentioned before, I've always figured there are probably deep space probes out and about looking to map other parts of the galaxy. I've always envisioned them dropping comm buoys as they travel to establish/maintain communications and transmit data they collect. Such probes could make good use of fuel scoops, but I don't know that they'd have any particular need to discharge while traveling. The reason the whole static discharge thing was an issue for the Ai is because they were traveling through empty dark space, with no planets they could discharge into. (Smaller craft can land on planets/asteroids to discharge, dreadnought sized craft can discharge while orbiting. All of them probably discharge while refueling.) BTW, ODSY (out- galaxy distributed static synch) drives don't travel any faster than the standard drives currently in use in MEU (12-13 LY/day). They just recycle the static charge and collect more fuel as they travel. Also, they're currently considered "experimental". But getting back to the original question here, why would anyone try to organize and finance a fully manned expedition to nowhere in particular? It's not like the existing colonies are bursting at the seams or they're dealing with severe resource shortages. We know what can happen to colonies like Feros, Noveria, Horizon, Freedom's Progress - they're far enough off the beaten path that they don't have much in the way of defense and council races are pretty slow to respond when they do have problems. I would assume that those colonies all have regular supply lines, too - but anything very far from an existing active relay probably would not. If the aforementioned probes turn up anything especially appealing, some organization might look at it for possible settlement/exploitation. As for the truly adventurous types who are just willing to roll the dice and set out into the wilds, the Ai is pretty actively recruiting them.
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Polka Dot
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Post by Polka Dot on Feb 1, 2020 19:33:43 GMT
But all the FTL upgrades that show up in ME:A including the ODSY drive would cut travel times in half. Allowing people to reach much further away from the Relays while still traveling at a reasonable rate. And if you add the cryo stasis in then even a semi long journey of a month or more wouldn't matter because the occupants would be in suspended animation. Even a span like a month would be a pretty big deal for most people. That wouldn’t really phase out relays if that month could be reduced to just a few hours. First and foremost people will always choose the more convenient path, and the relays are simply more convenient. There are reasons why a lot of people pay higher prices to put up with TSA lines and crowd themselves into small seats next to strange wheezers when they could be much more comfortable in a bus or train. There's also a reason why people pay extra for faster shipping. Humans are an impatient, time-stressed lot.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2020 19:53:19 GMT
To some degree, speed is always going to be a factor. Like, let's say every FTL-capable ship in the MEU was suddenly retrofitted with an ODSY drive. Mass Relays won't be rendered defunct and would still be the primary mode of travel throughout most of the galaxy, because few would likely want to deal with the prospect of leaving an entire generation or 2 or 3 behind making the trip across to wherever.
But all the FTL upgrades that show up in ME:A including the ODSY drive would cut travel times in half. Allowing people to reach much further away from the Relays while still traveling at a reasonable rate. And if you add the cryo stasis in then even a semi long journey of a month or more wouldn't matter because the occupants would be in suspended animation.
The mini-relay already made the massive relays obsolete. Their small size, ability to make galaxy-wide jumps, and land regular vehicles and even pedestrians within meters of their destinations means that multiples of them can be built on any planet. That they are one-way is no issue because an opposite pair can be built to handle the traffic in the opposite direction. The sacred-ness of the relays within the Milky Way was shot long before Bioware imagined up the ODSY drive because the mini-relays were shown to us in ME1 to be more powerful, more accurate, and much smaller (i.e. more economic) than the Reaper-built ones in space.
FTL only needs to be used while the new mini-relay network is being constructed. If the same mini-relays can make a jump from Andromeda, then all the AI has to do is bring the sending pair end (i.e. the one from Ilos) with them... and they can get back to the Citadel one at any time.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 1, 2020 20:10:59 GMT
a small percentage, yeah, but it's also comprised of people willing to give up EVERYTHING to settle in a new place. They knew this was a one-way trip for them. Even if they turned around and went home, everyone they knew before would be gone, and the galaxy will have changed in who knows how many ways. How many more people would there be willing to make a shorter journey? One that would only take a few weeks, months, or perhaps even years to settle a world they theoretically COULD leave, even if it's a pretty long trip? Human history already confirms there have been people with that kind of commitment. What's the motivation? As I've mentioned before, I've always figured there are probably deep space probes out and about looking to map other parts of the galaxy. I've always envisioned them dropping comm buoys as they travel to establish/maintain communications and transmit data they collect. Such probes could make good use of fuel scoops, but I don't know that they'd have any particular need to discharge while traveling. The reason the whole static discharge thing was an issue for the Ai is because they were traveling through empty dark space, with no planets they could discharge into. (Smaller craft can land on planets/asteroids to discharge, dreadnought sized craft can discharge while orbiting. All of them probably discharge while refueling.) BTW, ODSY (out- galaxy distributed static synch) drives don't travel any faster than the standard drives currently in use in MEU (12-13 LY/day). They just recycle the static charge and collect more fuel as they travel. Also, they're currently considered "experimental". But getting back to the original question here, why would anyone try to organize and finance a fully manned expedition to nowhere in particular? It's not like the existing colonies are bursting at the seams or they're dealing with severe resource shortages. We know what can happen to colonies like Feros, Noveria, Horizon, Freedom's Progress - they're far enough off the beaten path that they don't have much in the way of defense and council races are pretty slow to respond when they do have problems. I would assume that those colonies all have regular supply lines, too - but anything very far from an existing active relay probably would not. If the aforementioned probes turn up anything especially appealing, some organization might look at it for possible settlement/exploitation. As for the truly adventurous types who are just willing to roll the dice and set out into the wilds, the Ai is pretty actively recruiting them. Space telescopes can get much more up to date looks at planets within the MW than in Andromeda. Even with the geth telescope, the information is centuries out of date by the time they got to Andromeda. Just with standard ones, potentially habitable worlds can be found with data that's only a few years or decades old. Pick a planet, get the wagon train a-movin!
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Post by Son of Dorn on Feb 1, 2020 20:41:48 GMT
Since this isn't a option in the pool, I'll leave this here:
-voted "don't really care/not interested".
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 1, 2020 20:59:48 GMT
But all the FTL upgrades that show up in ME:A including the ODSY drive would cut travel times in half. Allowing people to reach much further away from the Relays while still traveling at a reasonable rate. And if you add the cryo stasis in then even a semi long journey of a month or more wouldn't matter because the occupants would be in suspended animation.
Even a span like a month would be a pretty big deal for most people. That wouldn’t really phase out relays if that month could be reduced to just a few hours. First and foremost people will always choose the more convenient path, and the relays are simply more convenient. I never said it would remove the Relays usage only reduce the dependency on them and how large of a role they play in travel and colonization of planets. As they would be able to extend out further without having it be as much of a hindrance. Given the ODSY drive seems to be about as fast as your average FTL ship that would also mean as tech improves they would be able to increase speeds. As shown with the Reapers as they are able to travel what 20x the speed of Alliance ships. So speed can increase and the trips decrease.
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Polka Dot
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Post by Polka Dot on Feb 1, 2020 21:15:10 GMT
What's the motivation? As I've mentioned before, I've always figured there are probably deep space probes out and about looking to map other parts of the galaxy. I've always envisioned them dropping comm buoys as they travel to establish/maintain communications and transmit data they collect. Such probes could make good use of fuel scoops, but I don't know that they'd have any particular need to discharge while traveling. The reason the whole static discharge thing was an issue for the Ai is because they were traveling through empty dark space, with no planets they could discharge into. (Smaller craft can land on planets/asteroids to discharge, dreadnought sized craft can discharge while orbiting. All of them probably discharge while refueling.) BTW, ODSY (out- galaxy distributed static synch) drives don't travel any faster than the standard drives currently in use in MEU (12-13 LY/day). They just recycle the static charge and collect more fuel as they travel. Also, they're currently considered "experimental". But getting back to the original question here, why would anyone try to organize and finance a fully manned expedition to nowhere in particular? It's not like the existing colonies are bursting at the seams or they're dealing with severe resource shortages. We know what can happen to colonies like Feros, Noveria, Horizon, Freedom's Progress - they're far enough off the beaten path that they don't have much in the way of defense and council races are pretty slow to respond when they do have problems. I would assume that those colonies all have regular supply lines, too - but anything very far from an existing active relay probably would not. If the aforementioned probes turn up anything especially appealing, some organization might look at it for possible settlement/exploitation. As for the truly adventurous types who are just willing to roll the dice and set out into the wilds, the Ai is pretty actively recruiting them. Space telescopes can get much more up to date looks at planets within the MW than in Andromeda. Even with the geth telescope, the information is centuries out of date by the time they got to Andromeda. Just with standard ones, potentially habitable worlds can be found with data that's only a few years or decades old. Pick a planet, get the wagon train a-movin! Uh... okay. It's possible that habitable, maybe even desirable worlds have been found via other means. And it's possible that some person, organization, or group with the resources to sponsor some sort of expedition there has one underway - with or without the ODSY drive. And... ? (This is probably the part where you again start insisting that Shepard should have known about it, despite the fact that TMW is a huge place with many activities outside of Shep's purview, and Shepard was pretty darned busy. And the cycle starts again...)
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 1, 2020 22:23:19 GMT
I think this shows why getting away from the setting with relays works out better in the end. It just takes longer to get anywhere, and the setting gets to feel larger without having to span the entirety of a galaxy.
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Post by ahglock on Feb 1, 2020 23:21:57 GMT
I think this shows why getting away from the setting with relays works out better in the end. It just takes longer to get anywhere, and the setting gets to feel larger without having to span the entirety of a galaxy. Mixed bag. Those are perks. But Instant transit has benefits as well as it’s easier to ignore time. In mea I was wondering how many days past every time I ran around the sector that the story ignored.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 1, 2020 23:36:48 GMT
Shouldn't you have been worrying about that in ME1 too? Many UNC missions don't happen in the system the relay drops you in.
Personally, I'd always have a clock running. But I lost that RPG design fight back when they had to nerf the Fallout 1 timer.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2020 0:46:29 GMT
I think this shows why getting away from the setting with relays works out better in the end. It just takes longer to get anywhere, and the setting gets to feel larger without having to span the entirety of a galaxy. Mixed bag. Those are perks. But Instant transit has benefits as well as it’s easier to ignore time. In mea I was wondering how many days past every time I ran around the sector that the story ignored. Travel in ME1 was not instantaneous though. We know that it took more than 15 hours for the Normandy to travel from Eden Prime to the Citadel since Shepard was unconscious for that length of time. Ashley also refers to being a dozen LY away from her sisters and that being "too far away to make it back in an emergency" (which certainly implies that travel between the two locations she mentioned (Amaterasu and Chernobog) was not instantaneous.
Again, the mini-relay shows us that planet surface to planet surface direct travel was technologically possible within the MEU. The Reaper-designed network involving the primary and secondary relays and thousands of kms of drift was actually surpassed by the lowly Protheans.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Feb 2, 2020 0:54:26 GMT
I think this shows why getting away from the setting with relays works out better in the end. It just takes longer to get anywhere, and the setting gets to feel larger without having to span the entirety of a galaxy. Mixed bag. Those are perks. But Instant transit has benefits as well as it’s easier to ignore time. In mea I was wondering how many days past every time I ran around the sector that the story ignored.
I had that problem more with ME1 and with most major, but not all, action/open world/RPG video games.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2020 1:02:47 GMT
Shouldn't you have been worrying about that in ME1 too? Many UNC missions don't happen in the system the relay drops you in. Personally, I'd always have a clock running. But I lost that RPG design fight back when they had to nerf the Fallout 1 timer. Absolutely true and not just in ME1. ME2 and ME3 clearly involved FTL travel away from Mass Relay systems for various missions. Typically, only one system within the cluster has a relay and the rest of the travel as required in all three games is done by FTL. Since Andromeda only takes place within the Heleus Cluster, there is no difference in the distances traveled via FTL from the OT games. The only difference is that Ryder can travel those distances faster in Tempest than Shepard could in either Normandy.
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Polka Dot
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Post by Polka Dot on Feb 2, 2020 1:17:56 GMT
Again, the mini-relay shows us that planet surface to planet surface direct travel was technologically possible within the MEU. The Reaper-designed network involving the primary and secondary relays and thousands of kms of drift was actually surpassed by the lowly Protheans. Ever wonder if imprecision in mass reporting might have something to do with that? By that I mean the codex says that ships report their mass to the relays, so the relays know how much they need to transfer. Changes in crew, fuel, too much dessert, etc. - really, how precise can they be? Nevermind how far off they could be when dealing with entire fleets... I also wonder if the relays themselves are subject to drift. Maybe the locations (or relative locations) of the mini-relay pair are more stable than the big 'uns.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 2, 2020 2:04:56 GMT
Shouldn't you have been worrying about that in ME1 too? Many UNC missions don't happen in the system the relay drops you in. Personally, I'd always have a clock running. But I lost that RPG design fight back when they had to nerf the Fallout 1 timer. Absolutely true and not just in ME1. ME2 and ME3 clearly involved FTL travel away from Mass Relay systems for various missions. Typically, only one system within the cluster has a relay and the rest of the travel as required in all three games is done by FTL. Since Andromeda only takes place within the Heleus Cluster, there is no difference in the distances traveled via FTL from the OT games. The only difference is that Ryder can travel those distances faster in Tempest than Shepard could in either Normandy. ME1 involved FTL into star systems away from relays too, it just didn’t waste our time with a needless fuel economy game mechanic that used a toy Normandy for us to manipulate on the map.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 2, 2020 4:30:18 GMT
I said no. If they can just shuttle back and forth at will they may as well not even bother with Andromeda at all.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2020 8:01:57 GMT
I said no. If they can just shuttle back and forth at will they may as well not even bother with Andromeda at all. Not sure why that would preclude people wanting to go farther out into space just because it's there.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2020 8:15:51 GMT
Again, the mini-relay shows us that planet surface to planet surface direct travel was technologically possible within the MEU. The Reaper-designed network involving the primary and secondary relays and thousands of kms of drift was actually surpassed by the lowly Protheans. Ever wonder if imprecision in mass reporting might have something to do with that? By that I mean the codex says that ships report their mass to the relays, so the relays know how much they need to transfer. Changes in crew, fuel, too much dessert, etc. - really, how precise can they be? Nevermind how far off they could be when dealing with entire fleets... I also wonder if the relays themselves are subject to drift. Maybe the locations (or relative locations) of the mini-relay pair are more stable than the big 'uns. Well, the first thing I wonder is how the mako reported its mass to the mini-relay when it wasn't equipped for spaceflight Or, how Saren reported his mass when he simply walked through the relay. I think the drift thing was to make it sound impressive and complex and scientific at the start of the game... and then they abandoned those elements in favor of the gameplay mechanics... and then by the time they got around to writing the ending of ME1, they simply didn't consider the impact their new device had on that old system as they themselves described it to us. It the same writing issue that people have been criticizing ME3 and ME:A for, but they don't want to recognize that it occurs in ME1 as well.
Aren't things on the surface of the planet still in motion relative to space. Our planet both rotates on its access and orbits the sun? I would think that alone would make it subject to more drift issues and a bigger problem of how it initiates a jump regardless of the time of day (when the very planet it is on could be between itself and the trajectory to its target relay. These sorts of issues with the Ilos replay aren't even touched upon in ME1. It works simply because Bioware needed a deus ex machina to end that game (which is the same reason why Bioware created the Catalyst).
Obviously, we all can overlook the flaw in ME1. My question is then why can't we all overlook it in ME3 and ME:A and just let Bioware move onto ME5? The sense of wonder we all experienced with ME1 in part came from our willingness to not be too picky about the sci-fi details and just go along for the ride. By the time Bioware released Andromeda, the fanbase had long lost that willingness. We keep asking Bioware for a compelling reason for the people in the game to want to go there, but heck, IRL I want to go there. I look up at the stars and would love to go to every one of them. No other reason is necessary.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Feb 2, 2020 10:33:29 GMT
Ever wonder if imprecision in mass reporting might have something to do with that? By that I mean the codex says that ships report their mass to the relays, so the relays know how much they need to transfer. Changes in crew, fuel, too much dessert, etc. - really, how precise can they be? Nevermind how far off they could be when dealing with entire fleets... I also wonder if the relays themselves are subject to drift. Maybe the locations (or relative locations) of the mini-relay pair are more stable than the big 'uns. Well, the first thing I wonder is how the mako reported its mass to the mini-relay when it wasn't equipped for spaceflight Or, how Saren reported his mass when he simply walked through the relay. I think the drift thing was to make it sound impressive and complex and scientific at the start of the game... and then they abandoned those elements in favor of the gameplay mechanics... and then by the time they got around to writing the ending of ME1, they simply didn't consider the impact their new device had on that old system as they themselves described it to us. It the same writing issue that people have been criticizing ME3 and ME:A for, but they don't want to recognize that it occurs in ME1 as well.
Aren't things on the surface of the planet still in motion relative to space. Our planet both rotates on its access and orbits the sun? I would think that alone would make it subject to more drift issues and a bigger problem of how it initiates a jump regardless of the time of day (when the very planet it is on could be between itself and the trajectory to its target relay. These sorts of issues with the Ilos replay aren't even touched upon in ME1. It works simply because Bioware needed a deus ex machina to end that game (which is the same reason why Bioware created the Catalyst).
Obviously, we all can overlook the flaw in ME1. My question is then why can't we all overlook it in ME3 and ME:A and just let Bioware move onto ME5? The sense of wonder we all experienced with ME1 in part came from our willingness to not be too picky about the sci-fi details and just go along for the ride. By the time Bioware released Andromeda, the fanbase had long lost that willingness. We keep asking Bioware for a compelling reason for the people in the game to want to go there, but heck, IRL I want to go there. I look up at the stars and would love to go to every one of them. No other reason is necessary.
Well,you may have to wait till 2025 for any news on a ME5 release. That is,if Anthem doesn't get reworked after the first rework....
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2020 14:24:08 GMT
Well, the first thing I wonder is how the mako reported its mass to the mini-relay when it wasn't equipped for spaceflight Or, how Saren reported his mass when he simply walked through the relay. I think the drift thing was to make it sound impressive and complex and scientific at the start of the game... and then they abandoned those elements in favor of the gameplay mechanics... and then by the time they got around to writing the ending of ME1, they simply didn't consider the impact their new device had on that old system as they themselves described it to us. It the same writing issue that people have been criticizing ME3 and ME:A for, but they don't want to recognize that it occurs in ME1 as well.
Aren't things on the surface of the planet still in motion relative to space. Our planet both rotates on its access and orbits the sun? I would think that alone would make it subject to more drift issues and a bigger problem of how it initiates a jump regardless of the time of day (when the very planet it is on could be between itself and the trajectory to its target relay. These sorts of issues with the Ilos replay aren't even touched upon in ME1. It works simply because Bioware needed a deus ex machina to end that game (which is the same reason why Bioware created the Catalyst).
Obviously, we all can overlook the flaw in ME1. My question is then why can't we all overlook it in ME3 and ME:A and just let Bioware move onto ME5? The sense of wonder we all experienced with ME1 in part came from our willingness to not be too picky about the sci-fi details and just go along for the ride. By the time Bioware released Andromeda, the fanbase had long lost that willingness. We keep asking Bioware for a compelling reason for the people in the game to want to go there, but heck, IRL I want to go there. I look up at the stars and would love to go to every one of them. No other reason is necessary.
Well,you may have to wait till 2025 for any news on a ME5 release. That is,if Anthem doesn't get reworked after the first rework.... I might also have to wait forever. It's something that may never happen at all. I'm aware of that. Are you?
It still doesn't affect what my preferences are... what I want to see happen remains the same.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Feb 2, 2020 14:50:38 GMT
Well,you may have to wait till 2025 for any news on a ME5 release. That is,if Anthem doesn't get reworked after the first rework.... I might also have to wait forever. It's something that may never happen at all. I'm aware of that. Are you?
It still doesn't affect what my preferences are... what I want to see happen remains the same.
I don't really care anymore. There's plenty of other things out there to do.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2020 19:49:20 GMT
I might also have to wait forever. It's something that may never happen at all. I'm aware of that. Are you?
It still doesn't affect what my preferences are... what I want to see happen remains the same.
I don't really care anymore. There's plenty of other things out there to do. Well, that's the thing about waiting... I certainly don't have to stop doing those lots of other things in order to continue patiently waiting.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on Feb 3, 2020 22:04:52 GMT
Shouldn't you have been worrying about that in ME1 too? Many UNC missions don't happen in the system the relay drops you in. Personally, I'd always have a clock running. But I lost that RPG design fight back when they had to nerf the Fallout 1 timer. I did think about it then. But when you dial it to 11 it’s harder to handwave.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 3, 2020 23:25:50 GMT
I said no. If they can just shuttle back and forth at will they may as well not even bother with Andromeda at all. Pretty much this. In the end, Andromeda's sole purpose as a setting is specifically to avoid this issue altogether.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2020 12:48:53 GMT
I said no. If they can just shuttle back and forth at will they may as well not even bother with Andromeda at all. Pretty much this. In the end, Andromeda's sole purpose as a setting is specifically to avoid this issue altogether. It's a fair point. Andromeda did accomplish moving the timeline at least 600 years beyond the Reaper War. There's two ways to totally "ignore" ME3's endings: 1) never go back to the Milky Way or 2) go back after some other disaster has wiped out everything in the Milky Way that evidences what happened at the end of the Reaper War. It makes no difference really and can serve as a means of introducing a new improved mode of Relay travel and pull the Milky Way into new futuristic sci-fi territory. Of course, it won't satisfy either those who want to hang onto Shepard and the OT forever nor will it satisfy those who now want a completion to the stories started in Andromeda... but maybe it's a way to move forward, beyond this fan deadlock... and at least it gives us another ME game (a very different one, no doubt... but an ME game nonetheless). That's why I voted that it would be an acceptable compromise. My preference is still for ME:A2.
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