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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 29, 2020 21:44:28 GMT
It is an odd image to find there. I would also agree about the overlap between Avvar and elven gods. Sigfrost, the Great Bear is the Avvar Guardian of Wisdom and that seems very close to Dirthamen, the Keeper of Secrets and Knowledge. The Avvar do not have a specific god associated with deer, but they do have Uvolla of the Wending Wood who accepts living sacrifices who could be a fit for Ghilan'nain. They even have a trickster god. However, that image in the barn does make me think more of Dirthamen and Ghilan'nain. I don't know if it is significant but there seems to be a symbol of a black moon above the bear's head and it looks more like a costume worn by a person to make them look like a bear, a bit like Fen'Harel's headdress in Trespasser, rather an actual bear. I think this is also true of the antlers.
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melbella
N7
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
Prime Posts: 2186
Prime Likes: 5778
Posts: 8,486 Likes: 26,468
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Oct 30, 2020 0:01:06 GMT
That dwg actually gives her a desire demon vibe. dwg?? Sorry, work abbreviation.
Dwg = drawing
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Oct 30, 2020 3:45:06 GMT
It is an odd image to find there. I would also agree about the overlap between Avvar and elven gods. Sigfrost, the Great Bear is the Avvar Guardian of Wisdom and that seems very close to Dirthamen, the Keeper of Secrets and Knowledge. The Avvar do not have a specific god associated with deer, but they do have Uvolla of the Wending Wood who accepts living sacrifices who could be a fit for Ghilan'nain. They even have a trickster god. However, that image in the barn does make me think more of Dirthamen and Ghilan'nain. I don't know if it is significant but there seems to be a symbol of a black moon above the bear's head and it looks more like a costume worn by a person to make them look like a bear, a bit like Fen'Harel's headdress in Trespasser, rather an actual bear. I think this is also true of the antlers. Yeah, I've given up on trying to understand the actual placement of those murals and just focus on the fact they exist. lol The placement makes zero sense to me half the time.
I know we (including me) assume bear, but do we have anything confirming its a bear there? Cus looking at it, it *could* be a wierd depiction of the dread wolf, too, I think. And a connection btwn Ghilly and Solas is implied by the spot he takes us to remove vallaslin. (Insomuch as we can take any choices in surroundings and assets as having actual significance, and not just being a matter of convenience.)
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Post by xerrai on Oct 30, 2020 4:59:25 GMT
[...] It is an odd image to find there. I would also agree about the overlap between Avvar and elven gods. Sigfrost, the Great Bear is the Avvar Guardian of Wisdom and that seems very close to Dirthamen, the Keeper of Secrets and Knowledge. The Avvar do not have a specific god associated with deer, but they do have Uvolla of the Wending Wood who accepts living sacrifices who could be a fit for Ghilan'nain. They even have a trickster god. However, that image in the barn does make me think more of Dirthamen and Ghilan'nain. I don't know if it is significant but there seems to be a symbol of a black moon above the bear's head and it looks more like a costume worn by a person to make them look like a bear, a bit like Fen'Harel's headdress in Trespasser, rather an actual bear. I think this is also true of the antlers. Yeah, I've given up on trying to understand the actual placement of those murals and just focus on the fact they exist. lol The placement makes zero sense to me half the time.
I know we (including me) assume bear, but do we have anything confirming its a bear there? Cus looking at it, it *could* be a weird depiction of the dread wolf, too, I think. And a connection between Ghilly and Solas is implied by the spot he takes us to remove vallaslin. (Insomuch as we can take any choices in surroundings and assets as having actual significance, and not just being a matter of convenience.)
Well according to the wiki, that particular image is listed as being Ferelden. Which, if true, would not make the image all that odd to find. Skyhold has been found and built over multiple times, so odds are good the fereldens or a group of ferelden decent found themselves in the keep at one point. This seems especially relevant since the image was found inside a wooden barn--a structure that is almost definitely human. Because while the elves may have been fond of twisting living trees to thier whims, making structures out of wooden planks seems to primarily be a human thing. Although dwarves are not entirely out of the realm of possibility if they were cooperating with humans. My guess? The barn-and the painting found within--was made by the last Ferelden who found Skyhold. That would mean that while the image depicted may have older, possibly elvhen origins, the painters of that image did not know that. They just painted something to pass the time, show thier heritage, etc. Although if I had to put my theory out there, I would guess it was a callback to older Avaar/Chasind tales since Ferelden culture is highly influenced by them. The bear makes me think of Korth the Mountain-Father, also known as the Father of the Skies which would explain the star and moon imagery. Although the bear can also possibly represent Sigfrost, the guardian of wisdom who also takes the form of a great bear who supposedly sits at Korth's throne as Gervaise said. That would most likely make the white 'antlered' woman the Lady of the Skies. A figure who is not so much 'antlered' as she is emitting a wind to carry off the dead, which is incidentally what the body in the painting itself can be interpreted as. A dead person. A soul. A spirit being drifted away by the Lady's winds into the embrace of Korth, a being who avaar believe is where at least some of the dead need to be returned to. That would make the painting a depiction of a dead person being returned to the embrace of Korth. It's not as grand of a theory as thinking its a Fen'Harel depiction or an artistic rework of Ghilan'nan, but I do think it is the most likely due to the style and possible age the structure it is found in. Admittedly the magic around Skyhold could have preserved the barn from the decay of time, but somehow I don't think the barn and its painting was part of Skyhold's original elvhen structure(s).
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 30, 2020 13:33:20 GMT
That would most likely make the white 'antlered' woman the Lady of the Skies. I suppose it is also relevant that in the saga of Trydda Brightaxe the Lady of the Skies is described as her "leaf-eared lover". That suggests that the appearance the spirit chose to adopt was that of an elf. Since their relationship was conducted in the Fade, Tyrdda being described as a spirit's bride (which makes me think Andraste wasn't the first and her experience was just part of the general Alamarri/Avvar traditions), it would seem the choice of the spirit was deliberate. However, unless the Lady of the Skies is a manifestation of Mythal (a possibility), there is probably not a direct correlation between the elven Creators and the Avvar gods because we know the latter are capable of communicating with their faithful and are definitely spirits. So it is possible that the Avvar "gods" copied earlier deities in the area and that accounts for the similarities. Do we know how old the picture is though? It may not have been painted by the original builders of the barn but subsequently. We know from Callback that spirits/demons can produce/alter paintings, so maybe that is what happened here and a spirit produced a picture based off something that was originally created elsewhere.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 30, 2020 17:33:37 GMT
That would most likely make the white 'antlered' woman the Lady of the Skies. I suppose it is also relevant that in the saga of Trydda Brightaxe the Lady of the Skies is described as her "leaf-eared lover". That suggests that the appearance the spirit chose to adopt was that of an elf. Since their relationship was conducted in the Fade, Tyrdda being described as a spirit's bride (which makes me think Andraste wasn't the first and her experience was just part of the general Alamarri/Avvar traditions), it would seem the choice of the spirit was deliberate. However, unless the Lady of the Skies is a manifestation of Mythal (a possibility), there is probably not a direct correlation between the elven Creators and the Avvar gods because we know the latter are capable of communicating with their faithful and are definitely spirits. So it is possible that the Avvar "gods" copied earlier deities in the area and that accounts for the similarities. Do we know how old the picture is though? It may not have been painted by the original builders of the barn but subsequently. We know from Callback that spirits/demons can produce/alter paintings, so maybe that is what happened here and a spirit produced a picture based off something that was originally created elsewhere. Not really. It's not like we had any of Skyhold's resident researchers or archivists looking into it. Mostly because no one really seemed all that interested in the painting at all. You would think that if it did replicate some older possibly-elvhen painting some passing scholar or Archivist Banon would have been like. "Hey, this painting is creepily similar to ancient depictions of so and so" or be like "Hey, this painting is made through a very obscure art style.". But then, it's not like scholars would regularly visit a barn...Even if Skyhold did have a lot of foot traffic. The best chance it had of being noticed by an expert was when Skyhold was first discovered and everyone was set to appraising the area. And that's assuming the painting was not some super duper old depiction that scholars simply don't know about or was forgotten. Still, if any place seems like a potential hub for spirit activity reaching beyond the veil, it would be Skyhold. Although it would beg the question of what exactly it was trying to depict. Or even if what it was trying to depict was properly depicted at all. Spirits being able to 'see' beyond the veil can be a bit splotchy even at the best of times. Unlike Regret who was influenced by Fen'Harel, I imagine most other spirits would only be able to 'see' into this world about as well as every other fade denizen. Which is to say, not that well at all.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 30, 2020 18:26:02 GMT
Not really. It's not like we had any of Skyhold's resident researchers or archivists looking into it. Mostly because no one really seemed all that interested in the painting at all. It is odd that the painting is there and yet no one mentions it, not even in a codex. Of course there is also the strange codex in WoT2 about the elven lament found in the Temple of Mythal (which for some reason human scholars were able to translate, even though ancient elven is notoriously difficult to read and the Inquisitor can only do so if they drank from the Well of Sorrows), which is said also to have found its way into a Alamaari war poem and from there into a Ferelden lullaby Where the Willows Wail. I fail to see the connection apart from the last line that refers to a wolf winning and people at war, which is very tenuous considering the tribes were constantly warring in Ferelden which at times has involved werewolves, like the legend of Dane. Still, if someone went to the trouble of writing this and making the connection, it makes you think there has to be something significant in it. Otherwise why bother? The same thought applies to the picture.
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Post by necrowaif on Oct 30, 2020 18:58:36 GMT
There are any number of weird murals throughout the Hinterlands and Crestwood that really have no explanation.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 30, 2020 21:02:39 GMT
Not really. It's not like we had any of Skyhold's resident researchers or archivists looking into it. Mostly because no one really seemed all that interested in the painting at all. It is odd that the painting is there and yet no one mentions it, not even in a codex. Of course there is also the strange codex in WoT2 about the elven lament found in the Temple of Mythal (which for some reason human scholars were able to translate, even though ancient elven is notoriously difficult to read and the Inquisitor can only do so if they drank from the Well of Sorrows), which is said also to have found its way into a Alamaari war poem and from there into a Ferelden lullaby Where the Willows Wail. I fail to see the connection apart from the last line that refers to a wolf winning and people at war, which is very tenuous considering the tribes were constantly warring in Ferelden which at times has involved werewolves, like the legend of Dane. Still, if someone went to the trouble of writing this and making the connection, it makes you think there has to be something significant in it. Otherwise why bother? The same thought applies to the picture. With in-world works like Where Willows Wail and the Temple of Mythal transcriptions, we know the creators have some sort of intention behind them because we can see the results of the their thought process. They strung the words together, put in important elvhen keywords, made references to old lore, etc. And as you said, they went through the trouble of writing it and making the connection to other older events. But can the same really be said for the painting? Obviously someone went through the trouble of creating it, but aside from that there seems to be no attempt at making a connection between that and anything else. Not to sound like a downer...but unlike a poem, tale or anything else in World of Thedas the painting doesn't have to have that much thought behind it. For the game devs, I mean. The painting in the barn could have been some developer's attempt at sprucing up the area and filling up empty space with an rarely used art asset. It could have been placed haphazardly, with the developer in question not knowing or not caring of its greater relevance (if there was any). If there is any deep lore meaning to that painting at all, something tells me they would have done something to highlight it. A codex, dialogue from ambient NPCs, a reference in a unique item description, etc. Just something to show that they are making connections just like they did with entries in World of Thedas. But they didn't. It could honestly just be a painting. No more relevant than the screaming statues in the Hinterlands or the various elvhen paintings of naked elvhen warriors in ancient temples. They may be a neat little references to another culture and their thought process, but there isn't exactly anything all that lore revealing about them either.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Oct 31, 2020 1:15:06 GMT
I always thought the painting in the barn was painted by an Inquisition member after the inquisition moved into skyhold, much as Solas's murals weren't already there when we moved in. I guess I assumed as much since it's just paint and you'd think paint on a wooden barn done as long ago as the previous residents would've worn away more.
There are dalish in the inquisition, maybe one of them painted ghilain'nain.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 31, 2020 1:17:11 GMT
I always thought the painting in the barn was painted by an Inquisition member after the inquisition moved into skyhold, much as Solas's murals weren't already there when we moved in. I guess I assumed as much since it's just paint and you'd think paint on a wooden barn done as long ago as the previous residents would've worn away more. There are dalish in the inquisition, maybe one of them painted ghilain'nain. On that subject its possible Solas painted them to.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Oct 31, 2020 12:54:40 GMT
I explain the mural in the Inquisitor's room as Solas painting the rest of Skyhold with various murals. But mostly cus its a unique piece we see no where else, its in his style, and I'd assume anything in the Inquisitor's room is handcrafted to be there on purpose, not just a reused art asset to beautify.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 515 Likes: 798
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Post by eternalgoddess on Jun 23, 2024 18:33:40 GMT
Streets of Minrathous and Wigmaker stories have become more relevant.
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