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Post by sassafrassa on Apr 5, 2020 16:19:07 GMT
They make sense. I know we all like to bitch at ME2 for its questionable plot and aesthetics, and especially for retcons, but the Thermal Clips is one retcon I wholeheartedly support. It makes sense and it improved the gameplay at the same time.
Let us think back to ME1 and the early-game, before you have weapons that can fire infinitely (or near enough) with mods and powers. In those early hours you squeeze off a few shots and then have to stand there and wait for your weapon to cool off. This takes several seconds and the wait increases if you accidentally overheat the gun. Was this fun? No, not really. The concept for the weapons in ME1 was creative but that doesn't mean it was fun. If you are going to reply to this post and tell me that you thought this concept was actually fun then I'm going to ignore you and assume you're are either a liar or have a bad memory. If the mechanic was so fun then why did everybody mod their weapons to never overheat? Don't tell me you didn't because EVERYONE did. The only exception was if you used explosive ammo, which you couldn't mod enough to not cause the guns to heat up after one shot (or a couple shots with the pistol/assault rifle). The fact that everyone ended the game with guns that fired infinitely is proof that as a gameplay concept the heat management system didn't work. Players got rid of it as soon as they could. It wasn't fun.
So ME2 replaces this with what is essentially ammo. Now guns have a magazine capacity and a finite number of reloads. They explained this change with the idea of Thermal Clips, which are heatsinks that you eject from a gun and then replace with a fresh one. The Thermal Clip is then discarded and as such ammo does not regenerate. Mind you, code in ME2, which you can activate, does allow your "ammo" to regenerate at a set rate. This makes sense since the ejected thermal clips should cool off and the heat sink in your gun should cool down like normal in ME1, right? True, but in play testing this resulted in players just standing around after each fight and waiting for all their ammo to regen. This was very bad for pacing and wasn't fun, so it got cut. Remember, these are games first.
However, perhaps this makes sense anyway and perhaps Thermal Clips should have been in the first game? They've been using the heat system for decades in-universe after all. The explanation is that the geth invented this technique when they calculated that ejecting a loaded heat-sink and inserting a cool one increased the gun's over all fire rate. This is a matter of life and death, obviously. Why wouldn't it be true? If you train well enough you can surely eject and swap out the heat sink faster than you can wait for your gun to cool off. The faster you are back to firing your weapon the better.
So why don't the Thermal Clips cool off? Well, they are heat sinks. They are made to absorb heat, not radiate it to the surrounding environment. How this tech works is never really explained that well because in ME1 the heat sink cools off IN the gun somehow. This means that the heat is going somewhere that is not inside the gun even though the heat sink is still in the gun. How does it cool off? It's never explained because there isn't a real answer. This question holds true in ME2 onwards as well: when you eject the heat sink how does it cool off? It might radiate heat very slowly and so eventually cool off while it is laying there on the ground. How would long would this take? Probably quite a while; several minutes at least. Once more, it is designed to absorb heat, not radiate it. A heat sink that just puts heat back into the surrounding environment isn't very useful. Perhaps you could dunk the thermal clip in water or, more realistically, some super-cool liquid that cools it. That might work but you can only do this so many times because of-course you are now heating up or expending your cooling agent to cool the thermal clip. The heat leaves the thermal clip and goes into the super cool liquid and now the super cool liquid is not cool anymore. Granted, this setting does have cryonic ammo and so associated cryonic powers ought to be possible and I suppose that somehow you could use this cryonic technique to cool thermal clips. Otherwise, it makes sense that they'd just be discarded in the heat of battle and picked up for recycling later.
If your complaint here at the end is that running out of ammo in ME2 is even worse than waiting for your gun to cool in ME1, then I'm just going to laugh at you. ME2 is an easy game and if you are running out of ammo during fights then maybe you need to play on a lower difficulty. If that doesn't work then don't play shooters.
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Post by burningcherry on Apr 5, 2020 18:30:52 GMT
The problem (at least in my case) is not anything you covered but the extent of the change over time. Why there's literally nothing cooldown-based around, why do maroons cut from the world use geth (or rather Reaper because the Collectors use the same sizes) technology, why did someone repurpose his historical exponate to this and how it happened over two years.
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Post by melbella on Apr 5, 2020 19:40:35 GMT
Or, they could just call it what it really is -- ammo -- and forget the whole debate.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Apr 5, 2020 22:35:01 GMT
In no reality does limited ammo make more logical sense than unlimited ammo. I do not understand why people keep debating this.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Apr 6, 2020 6:55:42 GMT
If I remember right it wasnt unlimited ammo? You had to replace the block anyway someday?
When in ME1 using early lvl guns, when near overheat, use powers while it cools down...
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Post by burningcherry on Apr 6, 2020 12:20:33 GMT
If I remember right it wasnt unlimited ammo? You had to replace the block anyway someday? Correct, four thousand rounds per ammo clip. Same is supposedly true for clip based weapons because one thing is heat sinks, one thing the actual ammo.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Apr 6, 2020 17:21:36 GMT
If I remember right it wasnt unlimited ammo? You had to replace the block anyway someday? When in ME1 using early lvl guns, when near overheat, use powers while it cools down... Technically yes, eventually the grain of sand sized bullets would use up the block at some point. But let's not be pedantic, the clips are a downgrade. Now, i have no issue with Bioware having a total ammo pool of like 4k, 5k bullets per gun, that you can't refill until you return to the ship, which would represent the blocks total mass. But turning heat sinks into modern Magazines is hilariously dumb from a tech standpoint.
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Post by RedCaesar97 on Apr 6, 2020 22:36:52 GMT
For the record, I much prefer the thermal clip system in ME2 than the overheat system in ME1. The thermal clip system may be essentially "ammo", but it allows for a more wide variety of weapons.
Also for the record, I think the in-game lore explanation for the switch to thermal clips was... fine, I guess?... even though I think a better explanation was standing right in front of you.
Basically (from what I recall from memory; I do not have the explanation in front of me at the moment) the in-game lore states that the Geth were using the thermal clip system. the council races then tested the thermal clip system and found it superior because reloading allowed a more constant barrage of bullets instead of waiting longer for the gun to cool down. It also mentioned that the thermal clip system allowed for "harder-hitting" rounds (more damage per bullet basically).
That explanation is fine. Now, I think a better explanation would be that the galaxy made the switch to combat the rise of combat tech hacks on the field, including various sabotage programs that could run on even the most standard omni tools. I think this explanation would fit the lore and gameplay that existed in ME1.
Basically: If an enemy uses Sabotage, your overheat-based weapon is useless. But with thermal clips, a Sabotage is just a small annoyance when you just pop in a new one and start firing again.
Anyway, those are my thoughts.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Apr 7, 2020 22:40:03 GMT
For the record, I much prefer the thermal clip system in ME2 than the overheat system in ME1. The thermal clip system may be essentially "ammo", but it allows for a more wide variety of weapons. Also for the record, I think the in-game lore explanation for the switch to thermal clips was... fine, I guess?... even though I think a better explanation was standing right in front of you. Basically (from what I recall from memory; I do not have the explanation in front of me at the moment) the in-game lore states that the Geth were using the thermal clip system. the council races then tested the thermal clip system and found it superior because reloading allowed a more constant barrage of bullets instead of waiting longer for the gun to cool down. It also mentioned that the thermal clip system allowed for "harder-hitting" rounds (more damage per bullet basically).That explanation is fine. Now, I think a better explanation would be that the galaxy made the switch to combat the rise of combat tech hacks on the field, including various sabotage programs that could run on even the most standard omni tools. I think this explanation would fit the lore and gameplay that existed in ME1. Basically: If an enemy uses Sabotage, your overheat-based weapon is useless. But with thermal clips, a Sabotage is just a small annoyance when you just pop in a new one and start firing again. Anyway, those are my thoughts. 1. Frictionless Material says hello. Nothing is more constant than literal non stop firing. 2. Harder hitting? So what? when you have like 5 thousand possible bullets in your gun, I think how hard each one hits is completely irrelevant. The hacking is an interesting defense....except you can use vintage heat sink weapons in both ME3 and Andromeda with no issues, because enemies don't DO that anymore. ME1 was the only game where enemies used sabotage tactics. No one ever hacks your shields, or locks up your guns. Bioware abandoned these ideas with their new more "advanced" combat mechanics. More to the point, even when enemies DID hack your weapons, the effect lasted only a few moments, was barely an annoyance. However i don't think in a thousand years, if you presented both options to a General, he is going to pick the option where it is possible for his men to run out of heat sinks and be unable to fire anything. Over a system that provides thousands of bullets PER GUN at a cost of waiting a few seconds to cool off.
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Post by Polka Dot on Apr 7, 2020 23:31:37 GMT
I'm not a fan of thermal clips, especially ME2's implementation. I think BioWare chose that design for several reasons:
- Shooter fans are accustomed to having to reload, and ME1 probably felt like it was missing something to them. - Their presence made it easier for BioWare to justify making the weapons fire more rounds at a higher rate, which some players enjoy. - It was a no-brainer way to introduce another layer of resource management to combat, in addition to power cooldowns.
My issues with their implementation are as follows: - Having to pick up clips to continue with a mission made Shep feel like a crappy, unprepared commander. An N7 really ought not be counting on scavenging from the slain to complete missions. Shep is not a lone wanderer in a post-apocalyptic world struggling to survive, and shouldn't have to strive to make every bullet count. - Players weren't given an interchangeable clip pool; BioWare chose to distribute the available clips among all weapons carried. The scarcity in ME2 meant I sometimes had to swap to a non-preferred weapon. While they may have done an adequate job explaining the lore behind the change to thermal clips, they offered no explanation as to why these supposedly universal clips could not be removed from one carried weapon and installed in another. - The bang for your buck in terms of clip expenditure was not well-balanced. One weapon in particular really frustrated me in ME2; the Incisor. It eats clips too fast for its damage output, and is thus largely unavailable. You can't kill very many things with a load of clips for it, and end up using secondary weapons quite a bit.
Although clips are much more plentiful in ME3, I always look forward to unlocking the Lancer.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Apr 8, 2020 0:43:31 GMT
Indeed there is little doubt the design was changed to appease shooter fans. Bioware made it ABSOLUTELY clear during the time of ME2 they wanted the CoD audience. In fact I think they said that exact phrase.
The change was poorly thought out and implemented. I was at least grateful to Andromeda for letting me make Vintage Heat Sink guns so I don't have to bother with this system that I have hated since it's inception. Hopefully the next ME game allows that option as well.
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Post by RedCaesar97 on Apr 8, 2020 22:53:58 GMT
I just want to preface my next few posts/replies with the following statement:
I am not going to make a value judgement on whether the thermal clips mechanic or overheating mechanic is better. Liking one or the other is a personal preference and completely subjective. You may like one or the other for different reasons and that is completely fine.
Personally I prefer the thermal clips because it helped provide a larger variety of weapons. You may disagree and prefer the overheat mechanic because it was unique and fit the setting and established lore better. That is fine.
* * *
Somewhat of a note, sometimes (often?) game mechanics dictate in-game universe lore. I suspect that the game mechanics in ME1 precipitated the lore, and so when the game mechanics changed, the lore had to adjust.
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Post by RedCaesar97 on Apr 8, 2020 23:17:49 GMT
I'm not a fan of thermal clips, especially ME2's implementation. ... My issues with their implementation are as follows: 1. Having to pick up clips to continue with a mission made Shep feel like a crappy, unprepared commander. An N7 really ought not be counting on scavenging from the slain to complete missions. Shep is not a lone wanderer in a post-apocalyptic world struggling to survive, and shouldn't have to strive to make every bullet count. 2. Players weren't given an interchangeable clip pool; BioWare chose to distribute the available clips among all weapons carried. The scarcity in ME2 meant I sometimes had to swap to a non-preferred weapon. While they may have done an adequate job explaining the lore behind the change to thermal clips, they offered no explanation as to why these supposedly universal clips could not be removed from one carried weapon and installed in another. 3.The bang for your buck in terms of clip expenditure was not well-balanced. One weapon in particular really frustrated me in ME2; the Incisor. It eats clips too fast for its damage output, and is thus largely unavailable. You can't kill very many things with a load of clips for it, and end up using secondary weapons quite a bit. 4. Although clips are much more plentiful in ME3, I always look forward to unlocking the Lancer. Some questions/comments: 1. This is not exactly new to games. A lot of games have you pick up ammo from the battlefield or enemies. I guess ME2 and ME3 was just more blatant about it? Also, I believe the rate of ammo drops depends on difficulty if I recall? For example, I think enemies drop less ammo on Insanity than Normal? Or was that just ME3 and not ME2? I forget. 2a. Regarding interchangeable clip pool: That would essentially be a shared spare clip pool. Not sure how that would work exactly. Thermal clip weapons (like most ammo-based weapons in other games) have a variety of stats that are used to try to balance the weapon, including SPARE AMMO. If you had a shared spare ammo/clip mechanic, not sure how that would work between certain weapons. In ME2 for example, the single-shot Mantis 9-12 spare clips, while the Katana shotgun had 10 spare ammo shots, essentially two spare clips for its 5-shot clip. If you had a shared clip pool, some weapons would probably benefit more from a shared clip than others. How many clips should be shared? Can you actually balance that? I don't know. It is possible that I misunderstood your statement. I apologize if I misunderstood you. 2b. Can you clarify "The scarcity in ME2 meant I sometimes had to swap to a non-preferred weapon." Perhaps I have just played the game too much that I forget my first few times through the game; I am very comfortable with the game mechanics at this point. Personally, I find I am rarely switching to a non-preferred weapon, as I am rarely running out of ammo. I can think of maybe a handful of segments in ME2 where I can (and sometimes do) run out of ammo. I am usually using the best weapons for the situation (for example, SMG for shields/barriers, and pistols for armor), and utilizing Shepard and squadmate powers to the best of my ability. Is this just a situation where you are trying to use an assault rifle or sniper rifle constantly, or are you actually weapon switching? Or is it the fact that you would prefer NOT to switch weapons, and use just one weapon like you could in ME1? 3. Agree about the Incisor. Just about everyone agrees it is bad on Shepard. Great for squadmates, though. 4. You used guns in ME3? Joking aside, everything in that game is a nail and you have so many hammers its comical. So may power combos, and a few good weapons (DLC weapons are ridiculously good) and everything melts. You barely need ammo. But the Lancer is good, probably too good. It is what the Avenger should have been (minus the overheat mechanic).
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Post by RedCaesar97 on Apr 8, 2020 23:31:07 GMT
1. Frictionless Material says hello. Nothing is more constant than literal non stop firing. 2. Harder hitting? So what? when you have like 5 thousand possible bullets in your gun, I think how hard each one hits is completely irrelevant. The hacking is an interesting defense....except you can use vintage heat sink weapons in both ME3 and Andromeda with no issues, because enemies don't DO that anymore. ME1 was the only game where enemies used sabotage tactics. No one ever hacks your shields, or locks up your guns. Bioware abandoned these ideas with their new more "advanced" combat mechanics. More to the point, even when enemies DID hack your weapons, the effect lasted only a few moments, was barely an annoyance. However i don't think in a thousand years, if you presented both options to a General, he is going to pick the option where it is possible for his men to run out of heat sinks and be unable to fire anything. Over a system that provides thousands of bullets PER GUN at a cost of waiting a few seconds to cool off. 1. Frictionless materials made that game a joke. "The weapons overheat so you cannot fire them forev-HAHAHA who needs that amiright?" Seriously, slap two Frictionless materials on a weapon and it bypassed one of the big gun mechanics. fun: Yes. Stupid: also yes. But this is where in-game mechanics fights in-game lore. Why doesn't everyone just use frictionless materials? for that matter, why doesn't everyone use sabotage and overload? Again, in-game mechanics versus in-game lore. 2. Harder hitting: more damage in-game. Lore-wise it does not mean much I suppose beyond "take down shields faster". Regarding sabotage in ME1: not a lot of enemies had it. It was a minor annoyance if you had at least two weapons. It super sucked if you had only one usable weapon (Adept, Sentinel, or engineer with no bonus weapon talent for example), as it lasted for waaay too long at times. More enemies used it in Bring Down the Sky DLC, which could get really annoying. Regarding a general: if the two options were: you need to reload constantly and carry more clips (and/or pick clips up on the battlefield, OR just wait until the gun cools down, then yes you are correct the general will pick the second option every time. I think it is a bit more nuanced than that, but now we are discussing the fictional properties of fictional guns in a fictional game world. In-game I much prefer reloading guns than waiting for a cooldown. Lore-wise, overheat is probably better but who knows? I suppose it depends on how long it takes a gun to cool down versus reload speed, and how many enemies you are expecting to face.
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Post by sassafrassa on Apr 9, 2020 1:50:13 GMT
The problem (at least in my case) is not anything you covered but the extent of the change over time. Why there's literally nothing cooldown-based around, why do maroons cut from the world use geth (or rather Reaper because the Collectors use the same sizes) technology, why did someone repurpose his historical exponate to this and how it happened over two years. At some point you must accept a certain level of gameplay and story segregation. You have to accept that this isn't a real universe but is something manufactured and may not always have 100% perfect continuity between games for any number of reasons. Complaining about the timeframe is nitpicking. My understanding, and I might have covered this, is that Mass Effect 2 has an internal parameter that allows for ammo to regenerate by cooling down. However this was disabled during playtesting because it resulted in players just standing there after each battle waiting for all their ammo to regenerate. This ruined the pacing. Even if you say, just let the magazine regenerate, you still would likely get a lot of players taking it slow between each shot to make sure their magazine never empties. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the more features you have the more you need to balance the game. The more complex it becomes. The harder. I would have liked this myself but you would have to balance it by adding more enemies that will charge you and require you to pour firepower into them or flee, or something to that effect. Otherwise I might have added some additional lore about "clip sweepers" on Omega who scavenge spent clips after firefights, cool them off, and then resell them. As well as a derogatory term in militiaries for a "Clip Bagger", that is a lowly position in a squad of soldiers who is responsible for cleaning up thermal clips during or after a firefight and recycling them. Something rookie soldiers often get assigned to or soldiers being hazed for some mishap. The more lore you build around the idea the more players will accept it. As well, it would be appreciated if the enemies on Jacob's loyalty mission had the old style weapons. Just reducing their fire rate and adding the ambient sound of the "overheat notification" from ME1 while you are fighting them would have been a nice touch. They didn't though, so oh well. In no reality does limited ammo make more logical sense than unlimited ammo. I do not understand why people keep debating this. I give you a single shot musket that can fire one round every 30 seconds or so and it has unlimited ammo. Or I give you an MP5 with a three 30 round magazines and put you into battle. Which gun would you rather have? If I remember right it wasnt unlimited ammo? You had to replace the block anyway someday? When in ME1 using early lvl guns, when near overheat, use powers while it cools down... Eventually the ammo block would run out but otherwise you had limited ammo anyway since your firing rate was greatly restricted. Of-course in the mid-to-late game players could mod around this but lore-wise, I'm not aware of any ME1 era guns that didn't overheat. That's just a gameplay thing, but also proof that the heat system was a bad game mechanic in ME1 since players could and would do what they could to get rid of it. Only to then complain that ME2 got rid of it for them. It's a knee jerk reaction. Lot's of things to criticize ME2 for but this isn't really one of them. Now, I think a better explanation would be that the galaxy made the switch to combat the rise of combat tech hacks on the field, including various sabotage programs that could run on even the most standard omni tools. I think this explanation would fit the lore and gameplay that existed in ME1. Basically: If an enemy uses Sabotage, your overheat-based weapon is useless. But with thermal clips, a Sabotage is just a small annoyance when you just pop in a new one and start firing again. Anyway, those are my thoughts. That's a fantastic idea and could have come in conjunction with a realization that swapping out heat-sinks allowed for a faster fire rate. Frankly, you would expect the Council races would have made this transition ages ago anyway. My issues with their implementation are as follows: - Having to pick up clips to continue with a mission made Shep feel like a crappy, unprepared commander. I understand it was no fun for somebody bad at shooters who kept running out of ammo but I think the trade off improved gunplay was better over all for the rest of us. I am not going to make a value judgement on whether the thermal clips mechanic or overheating mechanic is better. Liking one or the other is a personal preference and completely subjective. You may like one or the other for different reasons and that is completely fine. No, not really. The system in ME1 is objectively inferior. It is more limiting as it leaves you with only one parameter to modify and the proof that it wasn't fun was that players would try to mod it away and get infinite firing weapons as soon as they could. Ammunition is an essential part to balancing firearms and while the idea of heat generation was a cool and futurist concept, I don't think it worked too well in game play terms. If an aspect of the lore interferes or degrades gameplay it should be done away with one way or the other. Go ahead, tell me you have more fun firing and Avenger 1 in Mass Effect 1 than you do an Avenger at the start of ME2. One gun is fully functional from the start but the other is tedious as hell to use. The heat system might have worked if Mass Effect was never a shooter to begin with and was instead turn based, but it was a real time shooter instead. That necessitates good gunplay.
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Post by Polka Dot on Apr 9, 2020 3:45:05 GMT
I'm not a fan of thermal clips, especially ME2's implementation. ... My issues with their implementation are as follows: 1. Having to pick up clips to continue with a mission made Shep feel like a crappy, unprepared commander. An N7 really ought not be counting on scavenging from the slain to complete missions. Shep is not a lone wanderer in a post-apocalyptic world struggling to survive, and shouldn't have to strive to make every bullet count. 2. Players weren't given an interchangeable clip pool; BioWare chose to distribute the available clips among all weapons carried. The scarcity in ME2 meant I sometimes had to swap to a non-preferred weapon. While they may have done an adequate job explaining the lore behind the change to thermal clips, they offered no explanation as to why these supposedly universal clips could not be removed from one carried weapon and installed in another. 3.The bang for your buck in terms of clip expenditure was not well-balanced. One weapon in particular really frustrated me in ME2; the Incisor. It eats clips too fast for its damage output, and is thus largely unavailable. You can't kill very many things with a load of clips for it, and end up using secondary weapons quite a bit. 4. Although clips are much more plentiful in ME3, I always look forward to unlocking the Lancer. Some questions/comments: 1. This is not exactly new to games. A lot of games have you pick up ammo from the battlefield or enemies. I guess ME2 and ME3 was just more blatant about it? Also, I believe the rate of ammo drops depends on difficulty if I recall? For example, I think enemies drop less ammo on Insanity than Normal? Or was that just ME3 and not ME2? I forget. Yes, I'm aware that other games require players to acquire resources in the field. Offhand, I don't know whether there's a difference in clip drops at different difficulty settings. But other games also have other aspects to their overall economies that ME never had. In Fallout, for example, ammo is part of the overall economy - you can scavenge it, buy it, sell it, trade it, and accumulate as much - or as little - of it as you please. ME2 sets a hard limit you cannot go beyond and gives you but one way to acquire more - reliance on enemy drops. Increased medi-gel capacity can be purchased on the cheap, and you can salvage excess found medi-gel for credits. Why not thermal clips? It's not terribly complicated. In Fallout 3, for example, I can carry thousands of rounds of 5.56mm ammo and half a dozen different weapons that use it. Thermal clips are supposed to be universal; all they'd have needed to do is allow Shep to carry x number of thermal clips to be loaded into the weapon of choice. Presumably, the balance mechanism would have to do with damage per clip, adjusted. IOW, you should get roughly the same amount of damage out of a clip, regardless of which weapon you use it in. Really, how do they do it with the current system? How do they decide how many shots each weapon gets from a clip relative to its firing rate, how long it takes to reload, how many max reloads you can carry for it, and the like? How do they decide how much to refill which player's weapons when the player steps on a flaming thermal clip? (Those are rhetorical questions, btw - I'm not really looking for a specific answer). And that's exactly the weapon I'm bellyaching about. The Incisor chews up clips way too fast for its damage output. It's almost as if someone forgot that it fires 3 rounds per trigger pull, so its capacity calculations ended up 1/3 of what they should have been. For reasons I'm not going to try to explain, that weapon really appealed to me. I bought the pack that includes it and planned an infiltrator around it. Big mistake that led to major frustration and has a lot to do with my position on thermal clips. Yes, I switch weapons occasionally, but probably not as often as some. It does bring up a question, though: should it just take longer to kill something with the "wrong" weapon, or should it be impossible because you'd run out of ammo if you weren't using the right weapon for the job? Occasionally. Well, as you say, ME3 offers a lot of hammers. There's really no need to lay on the trigger till it overheats...
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Post by therevanchist25 on Apr 9, 2020 5:15:26 GMT
In no reality does limited ammo make more logical sense than unlimited ammo. I do not understand why people keep debating this. I give you a single shot musket that can fire one round every 30 seconds or so and it has unlimited ammo. Or I give you an MP5 with a three 30 round magazines and put you into battle. Which gun would you rather have?
This is a blatently slanted example to support thermal clips, because a correct example is an MP5 with unlimited ammo, or an MP5 that does not. Why? because the M7 Lancer is literally the M8 Avenger, except the Avenger runs out of bullets. That is literally what this debate is. Trying to claim that an MP5 that eventually runs out of bullets is better than one that takes 100 times longer to run out.
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Post by burningcherry on Apr 9, 2020 19:06:43 GMT
The problem (at least in my case) is not anything you covered but the extent of the change over time. Why there's literally nothing cooldown-based around, why do maroons cut from the world use geth (or rather Reaper because the Collectors use the same sizes) technology, why did someone repurpose his historical exponate to this and how it happened over two years. At some point you must accept a certain level of gameplay and story segregation. You have to accept that this isn't a real universe but is something manufactured and may not always have 100% perfect continuity between games for any number of reasons. Complaining about the timeframe is nitpicking. My understanding, and I might have covered this, is that Mass Effect 2 has an internal parameter that allows for ammo to regenerate by cooling down. However this was disabled during playtesting because it resulted in players just standing there after each battle waiting for all their ammo to regenerate. This ruined the pacing. Even if you say, just let the magazine regenerate, you still would likely get a lot of players taking it slow between each shot to make sure their magazine never empties. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the more features you have the more you need to balance the game. The more complex it becomes. The harder. I would have liked this myself but you would have to balance it by adding more enemies that will charge you and require you to pour firepower into them or flee, or something to that effect. Otherwise I might have added some additional lore about "clip sweepers" on Omega who scavenge spent clips after firefights, cool them off, and then resell them. As well as a derogatory term in militiaries for a "Clip Bagger", that is a lowly position in a squad of soldiers who is responsible for cleaning up thermal clips during or after a firefight and recycling them. Something rookie soldiers often get assigned to or soldiers being hazed for some mishap. The more lore you build around the idea the more players will accept it. As well, it would be appreciated if the enemies on Jacob's loyalty mission had the old style weapons. Just reducing their fire rate and adding the ambient sound of the "overheat notification" from ME1 while you are fighting them would have been a nice touch. They didn't though, so oh well. It's not exactly segregated because the moment you pick that gun up, you get a note that Hock modified it for unknown reasons. If the whole matter was hushed up, it would be a proper story-gameplay segregation, now it's an immersion breaker becaues in a vault of extremely well-preserved exponates you have a gun some reconstructed and the reconstruction is being talked about. Jacob's loyalty does this better because there's no attempt at explaining why would they have clips and it just slips. IMO an optimal way, from both story and gameplay standpoints, would be to make this Locust a cooldown-based gun and loot a gun at the beginning of Jacob's mission if you don't have anything that doesn't require clips.
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Post by RedCaesar97 on Apr 10, 2020 18:10:04 GMT
Go ahead, tell me you have more fun firing and Avenger 1 in Mass Effect 1 than you do an Avenger at the start of ME2. One gun is fully functional from the start but the other is tedious as hell to use. The heat system might have worked if Mass Effect was never a shooter to begin with and was instead turn based, but it was a real time shooter instead. That necessitates good gunplay. The Avenger has never been good in any of the games, despite it being sort of a "poster gun" for the series. Yes, Avenger was functional in ME2, but none of the assault rifles in ME1 were functional until level IV. All assault rifles in ME1 had 1 accuracy until level IV. I think the Avenger I - X all had 1 accuracy. I will agree that real-time shooter necessitates good gunplay. I prefer thermal clips, but ME1 gunplay is not terrible; it is serviceable and it works. I do get some enjoyment out of it, but I find most of ME1 is a slog to get through, the gunplay being part of the issue.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Apr 10, 2020 22:40:37 GMT
At some point you must accept a certain level of gameplay and story segregation. You have to accept that this isn't a real universe but is something manufactured and may not always have 100% perfect continuity between games for any number of reasons. Complaining about the timeframe is nitpicking. My understanding, and I might have covered this, is that Mass Effect 2 has an internal parameter that allows for ammo to regenerate by cooling down. However this was disabled during playtesting because it resulted in players just standing there after each battle waiting for all their ammo to regenerate. This ruined the pacing. Even if you say, just let the magazine regenerate, you still would likely get a lot of players taking it slow between each shot to make sure their magazine never empties. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the more features you have the more you need to balance the game. The more complex it becomes. The harder. I would have liked this myself but you would have to balance it by adding more enemies that will charge you and require you to pour firepower into them or flee, or something to that effect. Otherwise I might have added some additional lore about "clip sweepers" on Omega who scavenge spent clips after firefights, cool them off, and then resell them. As well as a derogatory term in militiaries for a "Clip Bagger", that is a lowly position in a squad of soldiers who is responsible for cleaning up thermal clips during or after a firefight and recycling them. Something rookie soldiers often get assigned to or soldiers being hazed for some mishap. The more lore you build around the idea the more players will accept it. As well, it would be appreciated if the enemies on Jacob's loyalty mission had the old style weapons. Just reducing their fire rate and adding the ambient sound of the "overheat notification" from ME1 while you are fighting them would have been a nice touch. They didn't though, so oh well. It's not exactly segregated because the moment you pick that gun up, you get a note that Hock modified it for unknown reasons. If the whole matter was hushed up, it would be a proper story-gameplay segregation, now it's an immersion breaker becaues in a vault of extremely well-preserved exponates you have a gun some reconstructed and the reconstruction is being talked about. Jacob's loyalty does this better because there's no attempt at explaining why would they have clips and it just slips. IMO an optimal way, from both story and gameplay standpoints, would be to make this Locust a cooldown-based gun and loot a gun at the beginning of Jacob's mission if you don't have anything that doesn't require clips. Let's also not forget that Shepard magically knows about Thermal Clips after he wakes up from Lazarus, when he should know nothing about it. I mean let's face it. Bioware poorly retconned their weapons systems, ME2 for all intents and purposes, acts like the vintage heat sinks were never a thing.
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Post by RedCaesar97 on Apr 13, 2020 1:56:51 GMT
Let's also not forget that Shepard magically knows about Thermal Clips after he wakes up from Lazarus, when he should know nothing about it. I mean let's face it. Bioware poorly retconned their weapons systems, ME2 for all intents and purposes, acts like the vintage heat sinks were never a thing. I do not think Shepard "magically" knows. The beginning of ME2 (Normandy SR-1 getting destroyed) happens a few months after the end of ME1. It is not inconceivable that the switch to thermal clips started to happen after the Battle of the Citadel. Remember, the codex about thermal clips states that the thermal clips was started by the Geth and the rest of the galaxy made the switch after studying it. So Shepard knowing about thermal clips in Lazarus Station is not some plot hole.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 13, 2020 11:47:30 GMT
Let's also not forget that Shepard magically knows about Thermal Clips after he wakes up from Lazarus, when he should know nothing about it. I mean let's face it. Bioware poorly retconned their weapons systems, ME2 for all intents and purposes, acts like the vintage heat sinks were never a thing. I do not think Shepard "magically" knows. The beginning of ME2 (Normandy SR-1 getting destroyed) happens a few months after the end of ME1. It is not inconceivable that the switch to thermal clips started to happen after the Battle of the Citadel. Remember, the codex about thermal clips states that the thermal clips was started by the Geth and the rest of the galaxy made the switch after studying it. So Shepard knowing about thermal clips in Lazarus Station is not some plot hole. Wasn't the SR1 destroyed about one month after Saren was stopped? When did the galaxy start studying the clip, and how long after that was the clip used in the galaxy? What about Taylor's loyalty mission? Thermal clips are found. The ship crashed long before the galaxy could study the clip.
I like both. If my weapon overheats, I switch to another weapon, use powers, or move from cover to get closer to the enemy while the squadmates provide cover fire.
Look at ME3, particularly the beginning and end. Shepard has unlimited ammo, without worrying about the weapon overheating, until he/she gets to the area where the kid is seen going through the door. And after being shot by Harbinger. It would be funny if Shepard were to run out of ammo while firing at the uglies before going up the beam.
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Post by capn233 on Apr 14, 2020 21:39:44 GMT
Yes, Avenger was functional in ME2, but none of the assault rifles in ME1 were functional until level IV. All assault rifles in ME1 had 1 accuracy until level IV. I think the Avenger I - X all had 1 accuracy. This is correct, this rifle always had accuracy of 1. It was from Elkoss Combine, so that makes sense. Standard issue Alliance was the Lancer though, which had massive 23 accuracy at level X. As a comparison HMWA VII is 75. Also want to note that Frictionless Materials is level VIII minimum, which means it will not drop until Shepard is around level 43. Really the only way to get a decent AR early is to have the Rich achievement.
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Post by michaeln7 on Apr 15, 2020 16:26:01 GMT
I thought the system made enough sense, the switch to t-clips so guns could fire with greater power and could be universal regardless of weapon.
Call me silly, but maybe a compromise could've been integrated into the class system: (I make no claim that this would work as stated, I'm just having fun with it.)
The Soldier, being the quintessential combatant, knows how to get the most out of his weapon. Can let the weapon cool, or use a thermal clip to bypass.
The Infiltrator, being a tech-combat specialist, can keep his weapons efficient, but the need to be sleek reduces the ammo he can carry. Has a faster cooldown, but "lower" total ammo.
The Vanguard, being a biotic warrior, can get his weapons to hit harder, but at the expense of greater heat generation. Has a faster reload speed via t-clip, but smaller clip/magazine size.
The Engineer and the Adept would have stronger benefits/detriments of the Infiltrator and the Vanguard, respectively.
The Sentinel, being the blend of both "non-combat" disciplines, would have no benefit or detriment. The Soldier would have the biggest bonus, and no downside.
However, I see how that would be enormously difficult to implement, so I can see why they went with Ammo powers to differentiate the combat-specialist with the combat-hybrids and the "non-combat" classes.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2020 17:49:17 GMT
I thought the system made enough sense, the switch to t-clips so guns could fire with greater power and could be universal regardless of weapon. Call me silly, but maybe a compromise could've been integrated into the class system: (I make no claim that this would work as stated, I'm just having fun with it.) The Soldier, being the quintessential combatant, knows how to get the most out of his weapon. Can let the weapon cool, or use a thermal clip to bypass. The Infiltrator, being a tech-combat specialist, can keep his weapons efficient, but the need to be sleek reduces the ammo he can carry. Has a faster cooldown, but "lower" total ammo. The Vanguard, being a biotic warrior, can get his weapons to hit harder, but at the expense of greater heat generation. Has a faster reload speed via t-clip, but smaller clip/magazine size. The Engineer and the Adept would have stronger benefits/detriments of the Infiltrator and the Vanguard, respectively. The Sentinel, being the blend of both "non-combat" disciplines, would have no benefit or detriment. The Soldier would have the biggest bonus, and no downside. However, I see how that would be enormously difficult to implement, so I can see why they went with Ammo powers to differentiate the combat-specialist with the combat-hybrids and the "non-combat" classes. I like this idea, though you're probably right that it would have been prohibitively complicated and difficult to implement
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