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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 2, 2020 6:12:48 GMT
Where is it stated she died? I think there's hints in DAI that she was made Tranquil. I'm not certain though. Edit: Ah, yes, she was made Tranquil. dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Avexis I know that, since we see her in Haven. I was asking where it was stated she died in DAI.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 2, 2020 14:23:07 GMT
I know that, since we see her in Haven. I was asking where it was stated she died in DAI. I don't think it was ever stated.
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Post by theascendent on Jul 2, 2020 14:26:04 GMT
So more human-like or more fey like in design?
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Post by grallon on Jul 2, 2020 18:10:59 GMT
... I'd rather have an improved version of the DA2 elves. It's silly to think that two completely different species would look and behave so similarly. The DAO elves are humans in every single way but the pointy ears.
The two species are close enough that they can mate and produce offsprings. So elves aren't that alien. Also, like I mentioned before, they are often used as sexual playthings by their human masters. And voluntary pairings are not uncommon either. This suggests a close kinship that precludes, in my opinion, any grotesqueries, such as what we saw in DA2.
EDIT: And *NO* beards! There's enough of those repulsive road-kills around us already.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 2, 2020 18:19:46 GMT
And please, please give them back their shoes, "barefeet elves" is the dumbest retcon in the games. Well at least in DAI they didn't foist that on our Inquisitor unless they were kitted out elven style. One reason to avoid it like the plague. What used to amuse me in DA2 though is how Fenris and Merrill kept examining their feet as though they were checking they hadn't stepped in something nasty; I believe Merrill even says as much at some point. I kept thinking, if you don't like stepping in it, then wear shoes.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jul 2, 2020 18:27:21 GMT
I usually dislike this type of topics because people use a lot of words to say one thing: "I want the people in my game to look pretty" But honestly, should anyone be pretty ? Why ? What benefit does that bring to turn everyone into eye candy ? I'd rather have an improved version of the DA2 elves. It's silly to think that two completely different species would look and behave so similarly. The DAO elves are humans in every single way but the pointy ears. Oh right, they're generally shorter as well I'd rather have the elves look alien, strange, different and diverse. Sure, some elves can be pretty and others can be horrific to even look at. It brings an element of functioning realism when people don't look like a Deviant Art gallery. To be fair elves in Dragon Age are meant to be pretty though.
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Post by Highwayman667 on Jul 2, 2020 22:17:48 GMT
The two species are close enough that they can mate and produce offsprings. So elves aren't that alien. Also, like I mentioned before, they are often used as sexual playthings by their human masters. And voluntary pairings are not uncommon either. This suggests a close kinship that precludes, in my opinion, any grotesqueries, such as what we saw in DA2.
EDIT: And *NO* beards! There's enough of those repulsive road-kills around us already.
I don't think the word "grotesqueries" is necessary, it's a little demeaning to describe work that took time and effort in a direction that I myself admired. There's no imagination in making pretty elves. Aside from that they are also fictional, so you can make whatever you want out of them: someone wants to make elves who are bearded, muscular and short ? I have no problem if it serves the story in some way.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jul 3, 2020 4:42:45 GMT
There's no imagination in making pretty elves. I wouldn't go this far, but I agree with the general sentiment. "Pretty elves," especially of the sort that exert a powerful force on human attraction, as described by David Gaider in Stolen Throne, are just so damn boring and played out. That is one trope I wish he hadn't bothered with in the novel. Ugh. I liked that they tried to go a different direction with elves in DA2. Unfortunately for me, I kept seeing the zora from the Zelda games, but that's an issue with me, not the dev team. Similarly, I prefer the ridged-style of elves from the Elder Scrolls series and eschew mods that smooth those away. I don't want my fantasy elves to look like shorter, lithe humans with pointy ears, I want them to look like a different race of beings, apart from the human race.
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Post by Frost on Jul 3, 2020 5:07:40 GMT
I wonder why I only see these complaints about elves and not dwarves. I have never seen anyone say that dwarves are so boring because they look like short humans. My opinion is that if they want to make a race that looks very different from humans, they should come up with a new race rather than messing with the elves and making them too skinny and ill-proportioned.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jul 3, 2020 6:39:38 GMT
I wonder why I only see these complaints about elves and not dwarves. I have never seen anyone say that dwarves are so boring because they look like short humans. My opinion is that if they want to make a race that looks very different from humans, they should come up with a new race rather than messing with the elves and making them too skinny and ill-proportioned. Because dwarves are not fetishized in the same manner as elves in general fantasy. In addition, the DA devs give dwarves far less attention than elves. Yeah, we got Descent, but elven lore was a major component of DAI's plot and that's not likely to change going into DA4.
Plus, you know, this is a thread about elves and elf design.
One reason for the discussion in the first place is because the devs have changed the elf design over time, which is not the case for dwarves, so it's more logical to consider the possible direction of elf design for DA4 and beyond.
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Post by Iddy on Jul 3, 2020 17:24:57 GMT
I wonder why I only see these complaints about elves and not dwarves. I have never seen anyone say that dwarves are so boring because they look like short humans. My opinion is that if they want to make a race that looks very different from humans, they should come up with a new race rather than messing with the elves and making them too skinny and ill-proportioned. Because dwarves are not fetishized in the same manner as elves in general fantasy. In addition, the DA devs give dwarves far less attention than elves. Yeah, we got Descent, but elven lore was a major component of DAI's plot and that's not likely to change going into DA4.
Plus, you know, this is a thread about elves and elf design.
One reason for the discussion in the first place is because the devs have changed the elf design over time, which is not the case for dwarves, so it's more logical to consider the possible direction of elf design for DA4 and beyond.
I don't see how does any of that answer Frost's question. If it is okay for dwarves to look like short humans, then it should be okay for elves to look like humans with pointed ears.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jul 3, 2020 18:02:44 GMT
I don't see how does any of that answer Frost's question. If it is okay for dwarves to look like short humans, then it should be okay for elves to look like humans with pointed ears. Except I never said or implied that it was okay. I didn't mention dwarves at all. Sure, DA dwarves are (physically) boring and trite as well. But again, this is a thread about elves and my initial post was a commentary on elves.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 3, 2020 20:37:22 GMT
So more human-like or more fey like in design? The thing is these two things are not mutually exclusive in our real world mythology. The elves, fey, fairie or whatever they are called in various parts of the world were meant to be extraordinarily beautiful, powerful but essentially human-like in appearance beings. The main thing that distinguished them was the fact they were immortal and could perform magic. When Tolkien first started writing about them, he depicted them as he did because he disapproved of the way they had been diminished in Victorian literature in particular, to small, cute beings that could never be mistaken for humans. In fact in Irish legends, something similar happened to the Tuatha de Dannan, who were powerful, magical warriors that changed over the years into the small cave fairies of more modern folklore; their reduced stature and status apparently the result of a loss of their original power. Anyway, the reason elves are generally always depicted as similar in appearance to humans is because of Tolkein's desire to raise their status once more to the powerful, magical, immortal beings of Anglo-Saxon folklore and most RPGs are the successors to D&D and much of that lore, concerning elves at least, was based on Tolkien. Actually the dwarves also seem to owe much to Tolkien's depiction of them as well even down to them invariably being depicted as living underground and mining for a living. In the case of Thedas, instead of mining mithril, a rare and valuable metal used for weapons and armour, the dwarves mined lyrium, a rare and valuable mineral used for magic and creating magical weapons and armour. It would seem that with the elves in Dragon Age in DAO, the writers were adopting the beautiful reputation of the Tolkien elves but with the reduced stature and loss of magic that resulted from being cut off from their source of power (much as happened to elves/fairy IRL). Tolkein's elves did not have facial hair and D&D extended this concept to say they had no body hair at all apart from on their heads. Dwarves have beards, elves do not. Strangely enough Tolkein never suggested his elves had pointed ears; that is something that later writers introduced. I tend to agree with the sentiment that if you want alien looking elves, then don't call them elves. Give them your own unique name. Bioware did that with the Kossith/Qunari that in some ways are their version of orcs/half-orcs but sufficiently different that no one would mistake them for the latter. The reason people tend to be unhappy if elves do not look sufficiently like perfected humans is because that is how people now expect them to look and ever since Tolkien it has become traditional to depict them in that way.
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Post by theascendent on Jul 3, 2020 21:13:27 GMT
Kind of curious how Elves looked before the Veil, did they even have a permanent, fixed shape like nowadays or could they change themselves in small or big ways? Colour of their features, shape of their feature, gender? The Evanuris no doubt had to look distinct to make themselves more 'Godly' from the masses, but when everyone is an immortal magical being, being unique would be tricky I imagine.
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Post by Iddy on Jul 3, 2020 23:44:35 GMT
I don't see how does any of that answer Frost's question. If it is okay for dwarves to look like short humans, then it should be okay for elves to look like humans with pointed ears. Except I never said or implied that it was okay. I didn't mention dwarves at all. Sure, DA dwarves are (physically) boring and trite as well. But again, this is a thread about elves and my initial post was a commentary on elves. If you don't wanna talk about dwarves, don't reply to the guy who was comparing elves and dwarves. Otherwise you won't address his actual point.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 4, 2020 6:16:18 GMT
Except I never said or implied that it was okay. I didn't mention dwarves at all. Sure, DA dwarves are (physically) boring and trite as well. But again, this is a thread about elves and my initial post was a commentary on elves. If you don't wanna talk about dwarves, don't reply to the guy who was comparing elves and dwarves. Otherwise you won't address his actual point. Frost was only comparing elves and dwarves in the sense that elves are more often talked about, and Nightscrawl actually provided several reasons for why that might be.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 4, 2020 6:18:40 GMT
Kind of curious how Elves looked before the Veil, did they even have a permanent, fixed shape like nowadays or could they change themselves in small or big ways? Colour of their features, shape of their feature, gender? The Evanuris no doubt had to look distinct to make themselves more 'Godly' from the masses, but when everyone is an immortal magical being, being unique would be tricky I imagine. I don't think that all the elves actually WERE immortal/magical, compared to the Evanuris. That they are considered to be gods in the first place suggests that the extent of their power set them apart from the majority.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 4, 2020 8:13:33 GMT
don't think that all the elves actually WERE immortal/magical, compared to the Evanuris. That they are considered to be gods in the first place suggests that the extent of their power set them apart from the majority. They were immortal, Solas confirms it was the Veil that took away their immortality. We don't know for certain but it is likely that Solas is no longer immortal either, in terms of aging, and the only reason elves like him, Abelas and Felaassan survived down to the present is that they entered Uthenera, which was a form of hibernation during which they drew sustenance from the Fade and since they were not active physically this allowed their bodies to survive. Of course it is possible they retained their immortality just as they retained their magic despite the Veil because they had a more powerful connection to it originally. As for magical ability, again he confirms that all elves had it but just as with modern mages ability can vary enormously. Take Felix, for example, the offspring of two talented Tevinter mages, yet hardly any magical ability at all but still considered a mage. It is possible that the First of the People were the most gifted in magic and that is how they originally attained their positions of leadership. It would also seem that many of the great works of magic required large numbers of elves working together; hence the concern of each of the Evanuris to acquire as many followers/subjects as possible. It is possible that elves who were born into the Waking World were automatically less powerful in magic than the Evanuris and others of the "First" because the original elves had started out as spirits that crossed over from the Fade, with all the advantages in magic that powerful spirits have, whereas the later native born elves were already influenced by never having been part of the Fade and that is why the Veil affected them far more than the original First of the People (assuming that Solas, Abelas and Felassan were all part of that group). Of course it could be that First of the People were exclusively the Evanuris but that does not take account of the Forgotten Ones, one of whom, Gelduran, seems to have rejected their claim to godhood over him but not necessarily his superiority over others. Like Solas, the Forgotten Ones were said to be gods in the Dalish legends, so may be they might all be considered First of the People, superior in power to native born elves and why they saw them all as gods.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 4, 2020 8:28:55 GMT
Kind of curious how Elves looked before the Veil, did they even have a permanent, fixed shape like nowadays or could they change themselves in small or big ways? Colour of their features, shape of their feature, gender? I may be wrong about this but I think that one of the restrictions in becoming part of the Waking World is that your form is fixed. The only way to change it is by shapeshifting into another form. Remember our discussion with Morrigan about shapeshifting and asking if she could adopt the appearance of another human? Her reply could have been merely evasive in questioning why she would want to do that, because theoretically it would be possible, but may be there is a limit of how you can alter your appearance with magic. From what Morrigan said of the magic concerning altering your form, you have to get into the mind set of the creature you wish to imitate, so you become a wolf, bear, spider or whatever. If you are already a human or elf, you already have that mind set, so I suppose it might be possible for a human to shapeshift to an elf and vice versa but not into what you already are. Does that make sense? The mirror in the Black Emporium would suggest that feature altering magic is available but we know that was really just a way to explain how you could alter your appearance once in the game. However, if that is considered a legitimate part of the universe then may be the elves could change their appearance by using one of these magical devices. There would seem to be rules set by the Evanuris about what forms you were allowed to shapeshift into and likely keeping your original form was something they insisted upon. Of course it is possible that vallaslin were originally devised so they could still spot their subjects even when they had altered their features. Fen'Harel was said to have "many forms" but it is unclear whether that meant many different elven appearances or different forms like the Dread Wolf. If it were possible to change your features with magic then you would think Solas would have used that instead of an outlandish disguise when he wanted to avoid detection.
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Post by Highwayman667 on Jul 6, 2020 2:24:01 GMT
I have never seen anyone say that dwarves are so boring because they look like short humans. My opinion is that if they want to make a race that looks very different from humans, they should come up with a new race rather than messing with the elves and making them too skinny and ill-proportioned. That... doesn't mean those people don't exist ... and it's probably the reason why RPG houses like World of Darkness even exist is precisely because people got tired of the same depictions of dwarves, elves, orcs and others. Who says the elves should even look like humans ? This is a fictional species, anyone can do whatever they want with it.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 6, 2020 2:41:11 GMT
Who says the elves should even look like humans ? This is a fictional species, anyone can do whatever they want with it. Eh. I'm personally of the opinion that DA leans far too hard on worn-out fantasy tropes as it is, and should never have had "elves" and "dwarves" in the first place. But if you're going to use the names of familiar fantasy concepts, they should at least broadly line up with their depictions in the original mythology/folklore/pop culture where they originated. An original creation should have an original name.
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Post by Highwayman667 on Jul 6, 2020 2:51:25 GMT
Eh. I'm personally of the opinion that DA leans far too hard on worn-out fantasy tropes as it is, and should never have had "elves" and "dwarves" in the first place. But if you're going to use the names of familiar fantasy concepts, they should at least broadly line up with their depictions in the original mythology/folklore/pop culture where they originated. An original creation should have an original name. But what if, as a writer, you want to subvert those concepts ? I could say that fantasy knights should line up with the original depictions of arthurian legend because that's how they were originally interpreted. But if you've watched Game of Thrones and its "knights" then you'd come to realize throwing the original concept into the meat grinder was a pretty sweet idea.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 6, 2020 3:16:11 GMT
Eh. I'm personally of the opinion that DA leans far too hard on worn-out fantasy tropes as it is, and should never have had "elves" and "dwarves" in the first place. But if you're going to use the names of familiar fantasy concepts, they should at least broadly line up with their depictions in the original mythology/folklore/pop culture where they originated. An original creation should have an original name. But what if, as a writer, you want to subvert those concepts ? I could say that fantasy knights should line up with the original depictions of arthurian legend because that's how they were originally interpreted. But if you've watched Game of Thrones and its "knights" then you'd come to realize throwing the original concept into the meat grinder was a pretty sweet idea. Well knights aren't actually an invention from Arthurian legend. They're a sort of mish-mash of soldier and nobleman that actually existed in history, and GoT still sticks with that basic concept. I'm not really sure what you think the big difference is? Likewise, the Elves and Dwarves in Dragon Age are not notably different from their depictions elsewhere. In fact, the only creature in all of Dragon Age (at least so far) that doesn't recognizably resemble its mythological origins is the Phoenixes.
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Post by Highwayman667 on Jul 6, 2020 4:07:35 GMT
Well knights aren't actually an invention from Arthurian legend. They're a sort of mish-mash of soldier and nobleman that actually existed in history, and GoT still sticks with that basic concept. I'm not really sure what you think the big difference is? Likewise, the Elves and Dwarves in Dragon Age are not notably different from their depictions elsewhere. In fact, the only creature in all of Dragon Age (at least so far) that doesn't recognizably resemble its mythological origins is the Phoenixes. You make a valid point but I did say fantasy knights. As for GOT, I'm pretty sure you remember that those knights didn't behave at all like how typical fantasy knights normally act: they behaved as goons and hitmen for the nobles, they commited heinous crimes towards the innocent and consistently broke their vows. That is not at all how knights in fantasy are supposed to act but it worked beautifully. Why ? Because it served a grander story that was trying to subvert typical fantasy staples. As for elves and dwarves, I would deffinitely agree with you that they aren't very different from regular elves and dwarves in DAO, which is why I personally found the former to be boring as hell... It's also not an issue of just appearences but about behavior as well: the writers did a pretty interesting twist on dwarves by replicating the nuances of the politics of ancient Rome, which was different and interesting from what you generally see with dwarves. No one would ever say from regular Tolkien fantasy that dwarves are "schemers and manipulators" and yet it works perfectly in DAO.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 6, 2020 9:38:08 GMT
It's also not an issue of just appearences but about behavior as well: the writers did a pretty interesting twist on dwarves by replicating the nuances of the politics of ancient Rome, which was different and interesting from what you generally see with dwarves. No one would ever say from regular Tolkien fantasy that dwarves are "schemers and manipulators" and yet it works perfectly in DAO. There is no issue with having an original culture and behaviour for fantasy beings that are nevertheless fairly standard in appearance. I don't think anyone would insist on elves and dwarves being exactly as depicted by Tolkien and to be honest if every fantasy world had them with identical culture and behaviour that would be boring. After all in our own world we are all human but there is great variety in culture, behaviour and religion, so there is nothing wrong in having that sort of variation in fictional fantasy. Nevertheless, whilst there can be a degree of variation in features and colour of human beings, they are all recognisably of the same race. If you suddenly had humans with horns or very angular features in fantasy they would no longer be humans but something else and that is only the same principle we are arguing for with elves. You make a valid point but I did say fantasy knights. Game of Thrones wasn't the first time knights have been depicted as less than noble in fantasy works. Even in Arthurian legends there are the bad guy knights, like Mordred, the noble, good guy knights like Galahad, and the flawed noble knights, like Lancelot, to name just three. Tolkien doesn't really have standard "fantasy knights" either. There are those who are essentially professional warriors, just as in medieval real life, those who are part-time defenders of their homeland when the needs arises and those who rely on others to defend them. Tolkien was less focussed on the mundane politics at play in his world because that was not the story he was trying to tell, which was in the grand tradition of the ancient sagas of our world. What George Martin was focussed on was introducing a far greater level of the behind the scenes (and upfront) politics that are affecting people's actions, together with their impact on ordinary folk. In other words he was basing it far more on the real life medieval shenanigans in our own world and so his works have more in common with soap opera than traditional fantasy saga. When not following the progress of Dany but the narrative is focussed on what is happening in Westros, with the exception of the White Walkers and the odd bit of sorcery, you could be forgiven for thinking it is not really fantasy at all but simply a historical drama set in a fictional world. You will note that apart from dragons, GM steered clear of using any of the standard fantasy races, such as elves, dwarves, etc, which allowed him far more freedom to use fantasy elements as he saw fit in telling his story. His equivalent of elves/fairies would be the Children of the Forest but he made them unique to his world and thus gave them his own name. Dwarves are not a separate race in his world but simply humans who have the dwarfism gene as in our world. I seem to recall the writers of Dragon Age originally wanted a more GoT approach and that is why you have the politics of Loghain, the Landsmeet, the dwarven succession but then pressure was put on them to have a more conventional save the world plot, which is where the darkspawn and the Arch-demon come in. There is nothing wrong with either approach to the setting and characterisation of the story you wish to tell. However, so far as races are concerned, if you are using standard fantasy ones, then keep as far as possible to what people expect. If you want to change them, then call them something else as George Martin did.
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