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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 13, 2020 16:50:41 GMT
I certainly hope that this hangup on Shepard isn’t something that BioWare ever truly takes to heart. It’s one thing to remaster the old trilogy to resell old content with a new wrapper, but another entirely to exhume this character from the narrative grave and essentially demand all players to commit to this protagonist’s history. Like, fuck you new player. Go back and play the MET so you understand all of Garrus’ little in-jokes. And goddamn, I’d like to woo someone new without having to cheat on Liara lol.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Aug 13, 2020 17:06:34 GMT
I certainly hope that this hangup on Shepard isn’t something that BioWare ever truly takes to heart. It’s one thing to remaster the old trilogy to resell old content with a new wrapper, but another entirely to exhume this character from the narrative grave and essentially demand all players to commit to this protagonist’s history. Like, fuck you new player. Go back and play the MET so you understand all of Garrus’ little in-jokes. And goddamn, I’d like to woo someone new without having to cheat on Liara lol. This. So much this. Want something new.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 13, 2020 17:13:20 GMT
Go back and play the MET so you understand all of Garrus’ little in-jokes You know, that would be a great sell point for the remaster. And goddamn, I’d like to woo someone new without having to cheat on Liara lol. Well, maybe Liara dies, this time. That would be a ballsy move. Or you can further explore your relationship, without Liara asking you multiple times in the game, if you're still a thing, after you said yes the first four times.
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Post by Phantom on Aug 13, 2020 17:22:17 GMT
Go back and play the MET so you understand all of Garrus’ little in-jokes You know, that would be a great sell point for the remaster. And goddamn, I’d like to woo someone new without having to cheat on Liara lol. Well, maybe Liara dies, this time. That would be a ballsy move. Or you can further explore your relationship, without Liara asking you multiple times in the game, if you're still a thing, after you said yes the first four times. Well Liara dies comments will attract well known Liara haters on this forum.
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Post by ClarkKent on Aug 13, 2020 17:40:41 GMT
Yeah, Shepard returning is only slightly above Andromeda 2(both squarely at the bottom) in my list of potential ME5s.
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 13, 2020 18:15:23 GMT
Go back and play the MET so you understand all of Garrus’ little in-jokes You know, that would be a great sell point for the remaster. And goddamn, I’d like to woo someone new without having to cheat on Liara lol. Well, maybe Liara dies, this time. That would be a ballsy move. Or you can further explore your relationship, without Liara asking you multiple times in the game, if you're still a thing, after you said yes the first four times. Hah. In one move, express love for the fans, then slap them and say “fuck you where’s my money?” like an abusive spouse.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 13, 2020 18:21:01 GMT
I certainly hope this hangup about having Ryder come back for another game is something Bioware never truly takes to heart. It's one thing to have a sequel to MEA, but it's something different when the character is boring, dull, expecting everyone to be ok with that. Like up yours player. Go back and play MEA to understand why Ryder isn't fit to be in another game. And damn, I like to have an asari on the squad that is a team player and doesn't steal armor to put on display like it's a trophy.
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 13, 2020 19:10:58 GMT
I certainly hope this hangup about having Ryder come back for another game is something Bioware never truly takes to heart. It's one thing to have a sequel to MEA, but it's something different when the character is boring, dull, expecting everyone to be ok with that. Like up yours player. Go back and play MEA to understand why Ryder isn't fit to be in another game. And damn, I like to have an asari on the squad that is a team player and doesn't steal armor to put on display like it's a trophy. I guess parody really is the highest form of flattery. Can't steal armor from the dead. That's RPG looting 101. In any case, bringing Shepard back is worse largely because of all of the variables involved with both the character's fate and the universe around them. Personally, I don't think any of BioWare's protagonists are ever truly that interesting in and of themselves, least of all Shepard. After ME1, any engaging dialogue the character could get was essentially gutted out in favor of threats and one-liners.
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Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Aug 13, 2020 19:17:59 GMT
I certainly hope this hangup about having Ryder come back for another game is something Bioware never truly takes to heart. It's one thing to have a sequel to MEA, but it's something different when the character is boring, dull, expecting everyone to be ok with that. Like up yours player. Go back and play MEA to understand why Ryder isn't fit to be in another game. And damn, I like to have an asari on the squad that is a team player and doesn't steal armor to put on display like it's a trophy. I guess parody really is the highest form of flattery. Can't steal armor from the dead. That's RPG looting 101. In any case, bringing Shepard back is worse largely because of all of the variables involved with both the character's fate and the universe around them. Incoming explanations how it is not and how it could be retc.. um, to go.. around? etc.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 13, 2020 19:20:10 GMT
Can't steal armor from the dead. It is if it doesn't belong to her. Besides it was issued by the Alliance. So yes, she is stealing Alliance property. And bringing Ryder back would be any better? Why would anyone want that character to return? Is it because they like the character being led around on a leash by a voice he/she can't tell to shutup?
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 13, 2020 19:28:29 GMT
Can't steal armor from the dead. It is if it doesn't belong to her. Besides it was issued by the Alliance. So yes, she is stealing Alliance property. And bringing Ryder back would be any better? Why would anyone want that character to return? Is it because they like the character being led around on a leash by a voice he/she can't tell to shutup?
Mass Effect was never really all that serious about its military protocol, but in any case, Legion got the best part of the armor anyway. Liara's piece doesn't have the N7 on it, so it wouldn't fetch anything at all on the extranet.
I'd say yeah, Ryder's in a better position because there's nothing that really needs to be accounted for or severely retconned to function. As for SAM, this assumes that it would return as it was from the previous game, but if Mass Effect's ever changing game design has taught us anything, it's that gameplay systems take massive shifts following feedback. Just look at ME2 gutting out exploration and elevators (even making a crack about it), and the skill tree being massively pared down. It's very unlikely that SAM's intrusive audio updates would be a thing anyway.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Aug 13, 2020 19:39:06 GMT
Just look at ME2 gutting out exploration and elevators (even making a crack about it), and the skill tree being massively pared down. It's very unlikely that SAM's intrusive audio updates would be a thing anyway.
Yeah, please no. NO! Dont dumb down MEA2 exploration and 'elevators' at least so much as in transitioning from ME1 to ME2. ME3 didnt much improve either but the skill tree was a tiny bit better.
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Post by ClarkKent on Aug 13, 2020 20:02:23 GMT
I would take Illium in Mass Effect 2 over all the crappy planets in MEA honestly.
The "I want exploration!!" crowd has been a sect of the fanbase I've never been able to relate to at all. The best bits of Mass Effect has always been in the urban areas like Noveria, Feros, Omega, Citadel etc.
If I wanted to trundle over barren crappy planets I would play No Man's Sky.
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 13, 2020 21:18:55 GMT
Just look at ME2 gutting out exploration and elevators (even making a crack about it), and the skill tree being massively pared down. It's very unlikely that SAM's intrusive audio updates would be a thing anyway.
Yeah, please no. NO! Dont dumb down MEA2 exploration and 'elevators' at least so much as in transitioning from ME1 to ME2. ME3 didnt much improve either but the skill tree was a tiny bit better. MEA doesn’t really have anything to dumb down any more than ME1 did. The skill tree in ME1 was just as linear; it was just that skill points were drip fed a little at a time for meager stat increases. Something like SAM’s voice doesn’t need to exist for every situation or condition. If it functioned more like EDI, where it only chimed in for analysis at key points in the plot, that would be preferable. If there are atmospheric hazards, Ryder should be able to see this as a readout on their own suit’s equipment. The crafting system is one thing I’d prefer stuck around, but add the ability to actually allow our companions to equip our creations. Not permitting Drack to use our custom shotgun or Peebee to wield a Remtech gun was criminal. As for exploration, this is very much a mixed bag. The problem with adding exploration is that it only serves the game well when it actively rewards you the more you do it. Just having randomly spawning enemy camps are not sufficient. Clearing a stronghold should be permanent. If I burn a kett camp to the ground, it should be taken over by the Angaran allies or Initiative personnel and stay that way. Environmental storytelling also goes along way to adding intrigue to make exploration rewarding as well. MEA didn’t really possess this. If the game can’t be bothered to fill the world with worthwhile things to find, it should play more to its strengths and emphasize on better combat maps and hub zones.
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Post by NotN7 on Aug 13, 2020 22:09:25 GMT
Exploration? sorry but correct me if I'm wrong wasn't every one crying about how the Mako sucked when it came to exploration in ME1? then comes ME2 and every one cried about the scanner so which is it? exploration is what the FAN Base wanted but they cried because it wasn't what they wanted in other words if you cannot give them (Bioware) solutions to aid in what you want then shut up! IT'S one thing to want its another to give them solutions.
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 13, 2020 22:25:50 GMT
Exploration? sorry but correct me if I'm wrong wasn't every one crying about how the Mako sucked when it came to exploration in ME1? then comes ME2 and every one cried about the scanner so which is it? exploration is what the FAN Base wanted but they cried because it wasn't what they wanted in other words if you cannot give them (Bioware) solutions to aid in what you want then shut up! IT'S one thing to want its another to give them solutions. There are examples where exploration actually works in a game’s favor. Some devs just don’t really implement it well. I feel that Horizon Zero Dawn is a recent example of a game that actually makes wandering fun, or Fallout as another. MEA doesn’t have particularly challenging enemy encounters in open areas. If each biome had their own unique fauna instead of the same fiend with different colors that would have gone a long way.
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Post by Phantom on Aug 13, 2020 22:36:37 GMT
Exploration? sorry but correct me if I'm wrong wasn't every one crying about how the Mako sucked when it came to exploration in ME1? then comes ME2 and every one cried about the scanner so which is it? exploration is what the FAN Base wanted but they cried because it wasn't what they wanted in other words if you cannot give them (Bioware) solutions to aid in what you want then shut up! IT'S one thing to want its another to give them solutions. We yell at Bioware for over correcting and bad ideas. ME1 had bad exploration. We didn't want bad exploration due to quality of the planets, So Bioware over corrected with Me2 with No Exploration and with a bad idea of a poor quality planet scanner. It is our duty as customer in what we want in Mass Effect and tell Bioware but conversely Over Correction is a good way to annoy customers in general. Over doing in any aspect is always a bad thing. And it should be called out on it. IF ME1 had good planets to explore, Then Fans will not make a fuss over it. And Instead of many poor quality planets, Fewer Planets with high quality for exploration would be welcome by Fans. The Scanners within ME2 is weakness is about grinding in order to get the required materials for the upgrades is all about the excessive grinding. Excessive grinding does get under player's skin doubly so if it is required for the best ending or make the game easier. Either reducing the requirements for the upgrades or make it less of a grind to get the material to get the requirements for the upgrade materials. Ryder's light heartedness and immaturity is a bit an over correction to Shepard's maturity and darkness within ME OT.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 14, 2020 10:57:24 GMT
bringing Shepard back is worse largely because of all of the variables involved with both the character's fate and the universe around them You can just filter those out. Not like Bioware liked having them there in the first place, or did anything worthwhile with them, by putting there. They basically just ruled that anyone that could be dead, is effectively dead, except Tali, Liara and Garrus, who would return regardless. Choices were never respected, so why would Bioware respect them now? Leliana is a good example. We never checked their pulse. They survived the Collector base exploding, just like Palpatine survived the Death Star, no hard feelings, just like old times. I don't think any of BioWare's protagonists are ever truly that interesting in and of themselves, least of all Shepard I disagree. Unless a serious rewrite was done, Inquisitor and Ryder are two of the worst protagonists in any game I've ever played as. And if you're going to rewrite either of them, in case of returning, that hard, so as to have people do a 180 on them, are they even the same character anymore, in anything other than name and VA?
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 14, 2020 11:22:51 GMT
bringing Shepard back is worse largely because of all of the variables involved with both the character's fate and the universe around them You can just filter those out. Not like Bioware liked having them there in the first place, or did anything worthwhile with them, by putting there. They basically just ruled that anyone that could be dead, is effectively dead, except Tali, Liara and Garrus, who would return regardless. Choices were never respected, so why would Bioware respect them now? Leliana is a good example. We never checked their pulse. They survived the Collector base exploding, just like Palpatine survived the Death Star, no hard feelings, just like old times. I don't think any of BioWare's protagonists are ever truly that interesting in and of themselves, least of all Shepard I disagree. Unless a serious rewrite was done, Inquisitor and Ryder are two of the worst protagonists in any game I've ever played as. And if you're going to rewrite either of them, in case of returning, that hard, so as to have people do a 180 on them, are they even the same character anymore, in anything other than name and VA?
Something like Palpatine is the epitome of creative bankruptcy, essentially being unable to implement something new, so these idiot hacks fell back on something familiar, and forever destroyed it in the process. I would contend that bringing Shepard back as a playable character would be just another exercise in said bankruptcy. If the Milky Way setting were to get a new path going forward, there's no good reason not to explore the option of allowing past characters to actually get the retirement they earned, having them actually move forward in their lives and up in the world, rather than erasing their history so they can stay lowly grunts following some admiral's orders on the field, and establish new characters to take their place. Shepard can't be like Maverick, just being Commander 'til they die.
Like, why should I buy into the idea that my Shepard, after all the shit that's happened and status of galactic savior at this point, now be reduced to a lvl 1 character that now has to get back on the grind of scrounging for more credits and new gear and build up the skill tree all over again? We won't be enjoying some sort of import system. It would be an entirely new game system from the ground up. The Normandy wasn't destroyed, so did the Alliance steal all my shit again? It's the whole upheaval of progression that adds to my preference for just having a new character. At least a new character we can see starting from the ground floor upward, not some seasoned vet that's basically been through a shitstorm and saved the universe. If the idea here is that any new characters are doomed to be mediocre, that just establishes that the writers would be defeated writing anything, even using old ones as a foundation.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 14, 2020 11:40:04 GMT
I would contend that bringing Shepard back as a playable character would be just another exercise in said bankruptcy They made Ryder. That's bottom of the barrel tier. That's not just creatively bankrupt, that's actively taunting your fanbase. It's Safespace and Snowflake tier. I'd take the Space Siege guy, over Ryder. And even comparing Space Siege guy to Ryder, is a compliment to Ryder that they don't deserve. And yeah, I get it, some people liked Ryder. Some people liked Rey Palpatine and Kalama Khan. If the Milky Way setting were to get a new path going forward, there's no good reason not to explore the option of allowing past characters to actually get the retirement they earned, having them actually move forward in their lives and up in the world, rather than erasing their history so they can stay lowly grunts following some admiral's orders on the field Or you can Star Trek it and have established characters go on adventures and just have them react, like TNG did. establish new characters to take their place That failed spectacularly. Shepard can't be like Maverick, just being Commander 'til they die Of course not. But if each game takes place in a theoretical 3-6 month period, you could make another 5-10 games with him. Like, why should I buy into the idea that my Shepard, after all the shit that's happened and status of galactic savior at this point, now be reduced to a lvl 1 character that now has to get back on the grind of scrounging for more credits and new gear and build up the skill tree all over again? We won't be enjoying some sort of import system. It would be an entirely new game system from the ground up. Well, you don't. You make it like an MMO and just add skills, unlock specializations etc. You progress. Considering the state of the galaxy post Reaper war, your credits may no longer have the value they had, pre-war. The Normandy wasn't destroyed, so did the Alliance steal all my shit again? It was stranded last time. Maybe it takes a while for the Normandy to reach us back. It's the whole upheaval of progression that adds to my preference for just having a new character So no Ryder then, either. Just a new Whedon reject. At least a new character we can see starting from the ground floor upward, not some seasoned vet that's basically been through a shitstorm and saved the universe. So we're still excluding Ryder, but that's no guarantee we're not getting Ryder 2. In fact, it's more along the lines of getting Ryder 2.
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 14, 2020 12:27:44 GMT
I would contend that bringing Shepard back as a playable character would be just another exercise in said bankruptcy They made Ryder. That's bottom of the barrel tier. That's not just creatively bankrupt, that's actively taunting your fanbase. It's Safespace and Snowflake tier. I'd take the Space Siege guy, over Ryder. And even comparing Space Siege guy to Ryder, is a compliment to Ryder that they don't deserve. And yeah, I get it, some people liked Ryder. Some people liked Rey Palpatine and Kalama Khan. If the Milky Way setting were to get a new path going forward, there's no good reason not to explore the option of allowing past characters to actually get the retirement they earned, having them actually move forward in their lives and up in the world, rather than erasing their history so they can stay lowly grunts following some admiral's orders on the field Or you can Star Trek it and have established characters go on adventures and just have them react, like TNG did. establish new characters to take their place That failed spectacularly. Shepard can't be like Maverick, just being Commander 'til they die Of course not. But if each game takes place in a theoretical 3-6 month period, you could make another 5-10 games with him. Like, why should I buy into the idea that my Shepard, after all the shit that's happened and status of galactic savior at this point, now be reduced to a lvl 1 character that now has to get back on the grind of scrounging for more credits and new gear and build up the skill tree all over again? We won't be enjoying some sort of import system. It would be an entirely new game system from the ground up. Well, you don't. You make it like an MMO and just add skills, unlock specializations etc. You progress. Considering the state of the galaxy post Reaper war, your credits may no longer have the value they had, pre-war. The Normandy wasn't destroyed, so did the Alliance steal all my shit again? It was stranded last time. Maybe it takes a while for the Normandy to reach us back. It's the whole upheaval of progression that adds to my preference for just having a new character So no Ryder then, either. Just a new Whedon reject. At least a new character we can see starting from the ground floor upward, not some seasoned vet that's basically been through a shitstorm and saved the universe. So we're still excluding Ryder, but that's no guarantee we're not getting Ryder 2. In fact, it's more along the lines of getting Ryder 2. Now you're just being silly. Nothing BioWare's ever done comes close to what I feel was probably a practical joke on Marvel's part. It makes for some interesting hyperbole, but there's no serious comparison that's truly honest.
The bit about TNG doesn't really say anything to how a Mass Effect game would operate, unless you mean Captain Shepard would mostly just sit on the ship while someone else is doing all the shooting. I don't think BioWare would be up to the task of providing any good TNG-level speeches for Shepard to say.
As for the timeframe of when game takes place, I find it unlikely at this point that any hypothetical Milky Way game is going to just take place the span of a few months after whatever happened before. Considering the enormity of the conflict's resolution and the actual span of time between the games' respective releases, I'm betting that they would most likely establish a good number of years, possibly couple of decades, in the future. I do not see it being likely that they would gloss over absolutely everything, like the damage the reapers cause. Even if you want to implement some massive course correction, there's just no way to strike so much from the canon as to make everything look hunky-dory in the course of a couple of months.
I'm mostly interested in the idea you're kind of avoiding while sort of taking another jab at it, and that's the idea of a new character. You want to establish that a new character will just fail simply because a previous one did, but this is merely your prejudice, not a rule. An established character only retains as much power as the talent of the writer tasked with providing them content. If a writer can't create a new character that's good, then they can't make good content for an old one. I mean really, if you don't believe that anyone at BioWare is up to the task to create a new character, why should anyone trust them to follow-up on the ones we know and like? I don't really see where you see the benefit if that's the case.
To dredge up another Star Wars example, just look at Luke Skywalker. What good did bringing this character back do for the franchise? Hack writers took the character and destroyed him, seemingly for all time. His mere existence was no balm that made the franchise better. Any glimmer of hope seeing his face again to offer up the prospect of something great got subverted to shit. Their inability to do good with their new characters was no more egregious than their inability to properly handle the return of old ones.
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Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Aug 14, 2020 14:21:11 GMT
Going back to the Milky Way has just as much potential as failing just as badly. After the fact, true. Andromeda has a higher potential of being pre-canceled. For example, a person's reaction to Andromeda "Oh a sequel to Andromeda? Yeah, not going to bother. Turns out it was shit? Glad I didn't buy it. Guess that's the end of Mass Effect." And a person's reaction to a Shepard sequel "Shepard's back? I wanna see what that is about, especially after the ME3 ending debacle. Oh, it was shit after all. Well, maybe they'll do better the next time." That is how I see the reactions happening, anyway. I am still not sure, if you look at the different reviews and polls and anything else you see online I don't think the reception to Andromeda is that negative. Yes there are people out there that probably do hate the game and everything within it, but that doesn't mean its an accurate portrayal of how the majority feel. I could see just as many people going "EA is milking us for money bringing back Shepard, I am skipping it" to those that might come back for Shepard as well.
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Highwayman667
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"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
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Post by Highwayman667 on Aug 14, 2020 16:04:12 GMT
Going back to the Milky Way has just as much potential as failing just as badly. Or just not failing at all. Everything is possible people. Keep an open mind.
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Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Aug 14, 2020 17:04:09 GMT
Going back to the Milky Way has just as much potential as failing just as badly. Or just not failing at all. Everything is possible people. Keep an open mind. I did keep an open mind, it why I said "just as much potential" which means both approaches can fail.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 14, 2020 17:42:50 GMT
Now you're just being silly. Nothing BioWare's ever done comes close to what I feel was probably a practical joke on Marvel's part. It makes for some interesting hyperbole, but there's no serious comparison that's truly honest.
The bit about TNG doesn't really say anything to how a Mass Effect game would operate, unless you mean Captain Shepard would mostly just sit on the ship while someone else is doing all the shooting. I don't think BioWare would be up to the task of providing any good TNG-level speeches for Shepard to say.
As for the timeframe of when game takes place, I find it unlikely at this point that any hypothetical Milky Way game is going to just take place the span of a few months after whatever happened before. Considering the enormity of the conflict's resolution and the actual span of time between the games' respective releases, I'm betting that they would most likely establish a good number of years, possibly couple of decades, in the future. I do not see it being likely that they would gloss over absolutely everything, like the damage the reapers cause. Even if you want to implement some massive course correction, there's just no way to strike so much from the canon as to make everything look hunky-dory in the course of a couple of months.
I'm mostly interested in the idea you're kind of avoiding while sort of taking another jab at it, and that's the idea of a new character. You want to establish that a new character will just fail simply because a previous one did, but this is merely your prejudice, not a rule. An established character only retains as much power as the talent of the writer tasked with providing them content. If a writer can't create a new character that's good, then they can't make good content for an old one. I mean really, if you don't believe that anyone at BioWare is up to the task to create a new character, why should anyone trust them to follow-up on the ones we know and like? I don't really see where you see the benefit if that's the case.
To dredge up another Star Wars example, just look at Luke Skywalker. What good did bringing this character back do for the franchise? Hack writers took the character and destroyed him, seemingly for all time. His mere existence was no balm that made the franchise better. Any glimmer of hope seeing his face again to offer up the prospect of something great got subverted to shit. Their inability to do good with their new characters was no more egregious than their inability to properly handle the return of old ones.
I am still not sure, if you look at the different reviews and polls and anything else you see online I don't think the reception to Andromeda is that negative. Yes there are people out there that probably do hate the game and everything within it, but that doesn't mean its an accurate portrayal of how the majority feel. I could see just as many people going "EA is milking us for money bringing back Shepard, I am skipping it" to those that might come back for Shepard as well. There's little left for me to say. It's been 10 years since Bioware released a well received game. All of the titles since have been either irrelevant to the greater public (Inquisition), or incredibly divisive (everything else post ME2). So let it go. Both this place and Bioware. Time to go back to what worked, or follow Montreal. This can only work one of two ways.
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