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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 16, 2020 20:33:45 GMT
I mean, I think this is why “redemption”/“beyond redemption” is such a weird framing. It asks the wrong questions. This is why I objected to the choice at the end of Trespasser being between "Stop Solas at any costs" and "Redeem Solas". My aim would simply to achieve the outcome that didn't result in the deaths of millions and if that could be best achieved by persuading Solas to abort his plan, that would be great but Solas' welfare is not the prime motivation, saving lives is.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 16, 2020 20:44:37 GMT
With his power levels this could set up some really juicy philosophical conversation where we are going to have to reason with him and get him to give up his plan You see I'm someone who always likes this approach. Defeating my enemy with brains rather than brawn definitely appeals. Gather all the information, present it to Solas and then say simply: You plan is not going to work. Deal with it. If he is genuinely trying to save this world from, say, the Blight, then put forward Plan B, if you've thought of one, or suggest working it out together if you have not. I just have this nasty feeling that even if he goes ahead with his plan it is not going to work out as he intended, which will simply show he did not learn from his last attempt at fixing the world.
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theascendent
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
Posts: 482 Likes: 629
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by theascendent on Sept 16, 2020 20:48:49 GMT
Trying to fight him is probably going to be akin to fighting Eothas in Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire. Let's just say it is an interesting approach.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 16, 2020 20:57:51 GMT
With his power levels this could set up some really juicy philosophical conversation where we are going to have to reason with him and get him to give up his plan You see I'm someone who always likes this approach. Defeating my enemy with brains rather than brawn definitely appeals. Gather all the information, present it to Solas and then say simply: You plan is not going to work. Deal with it. If he is genuinely trying to save this world from, say, the Blight, then put forward Plan B, if you've thought of one, or suggest working it out together if you have not. I just have this nasty feeling that even if he goes ahead with his plan it is not going to work out as he intended, which will simply show he did not learn from his last attempt at fixing the world. oh I agree 100%. The other really good example of this kind of thing is the resolution to the Shadow War in B5. What's nice about this though is if his dialogue at the end of Tresspasser is any indication he also admits this as a possibility.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by Frost on Sept 16, 2020 22:58:02 GMT
You see I'm someone who always likes this approach. Defeating my enemy with brains rather than brawn definitely appeals. Gather all the information, present it to Solas and then say simply: You plan is not going to work. Deal with it. If he is genuinely trying to save this world from, say, the Blight, then put forward Plan B, if you've thought of one, or suggest working it out together if you have not. I just have this nasty feeling that even if he goes ahead with his plan it is not going to work out as he intended, which will simply show he did not learn from his last attempt at fixing the world. oh I agree 100%. The other really good example of this kind of thing is the resolution to the Shadow War in B5. What's nice about this though is if his dialogue at the end of Tresspasser is any indication he also admits this as a possibility. Agree. He says he wants to be proven wrong.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 16, 2020 23:04:02 GMT
On the offf chance Solas does prove to be 'too stubourn to be redeamed' I would pay for a dialogue option that says something along the lines of "Solas, you have failed this continent!/Thedas" before having to put an arrow through his eye.
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,179 Likes: 4,063
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 17, 2020 1:57:00 GMT
Trying to fight him is probably going to be akin to fighting Eothas in Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire. Let's just say it is an interesting approach. Oh god no...
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Post by Gwydden on Sept 17, 2020 2:57:02 GMT
This is clearly a case where in any remotely realistic circumstances the question of whether the unrepentant genocidal maniac is "redeemable" is patently absurd, but in a D&D-ish fantasy setting that faces a world-ending scenario every other Thursday anything's possible so long as he shows sufficient contrition.
We've had so many awful people as companions already. Sten massacred an entire family for trying to help him, Leliana and Zevran talk lightly of the times they banged people only to kill them, Oghren flew into a drunken rage and split a guy in two because of an insult, Loghain did all the Loghain things... And that's only DA:O! Hardly anyone approaches those characters realistically, and Solas' distinction is merely one of scale.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 17, 2020 3:04:30 GMT
This is clearly a case where in any remotely realistic circumstances the question of whether the unrepentant genocidal maniac is "redeemable" is patently absurd, but in a D&D-ish fantasy setting that faces a world-ending scenario every other Thursday anything's possible so long as he shows sufficient contrition. We've had so many awful people as companions already. Sten massacred an entire family for trying to help him, Leliana and Zevran talk lightly of the times they banged people only to kill them, Oghren flew into a drunken rage and split a guy in two because of an insult, Loghain did all the Loghain things... And that's only DA:O! Hardly anyone approaches those characters realistically, and Solas' distinction is merely one of scale. Um, that’s not why Sten killed them. He couldn’t find his sword which in his culture was his soul so he had a breakdown. Not defending his actions, just saying. I find most of the characters who are like this awful as well, some of them irredeemable. That’s why I’m hoping next game has a good chunk of the main group be genuinely good people like a few in the past games. Enough to make a full party at least please.
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,179 Likes: 4,063
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Always teacher, sometimes writer
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 17, 2020 3:24:09 GMT
This is clearly a case where in any remotely realistic circumstances the question of whether the unrepentant genocidal maniac is "redeemable" is patently absurd, but in a D&D-ish fantasy setting that faces a world-ending scenario every other Thursday anything's possible so long as he shows sufficient contrition. We've had so many awful people as companions already. Sten massacred an entire family for trying to help him, Leliana and Zevran talk lightly of the times they banged people only to kill them, Oghren flew into a drunken rage and split a guy in two because of an insult, Loghain did all the Loghain things... And that's only DA:O! Hardly anyone approaches those characters realistically, and Solas' distinction is merely one of scale. Anders. Yet most of the fanbase seems to keep him alive every time.
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Post by Reznore on Sept 17, 2020 4:10:28 GMT
Anders. Yet most of the fanbase seems to keep him alive every time.
I don't love Anders, and saying I like him would be going a bit far But
He was taken away from his parents at a young age. And send from the Anderfels to Ferelden (I think he never saw his parent again) Was put in solitary confinment for a bloody full year once. Because he tried to run away from the circle. Something like that is a form of torture. His friend and lover was lobotomised for sending him a letter. Saw it happens to other mages. People in charge who either ignored those pratise or were behind those never got in much trouble (unless Hawke came along and murdered them )
So he tried to get back to those institutions in a big way.
I don't approve the way he did it. But I can understand why he snapped.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by Frost on Sept 17, 2020 4:14:23 GMT
Anders. Yet most of the fanbase seems to keep him alive every time. My Hawke let Anders live.
And Solas will live, too, if Bioware gives me the choice to redeem or spare him.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 17, 2020 4:49:17 GMT
This is clearly a case where in any remotely realistic circumstances the question of whether the unrepentant genocidal maniac is "redeemable" is patently absurd, but in a D&D-ish fantasy setting that faces a world-ending scenario every other Thursday anything's possible so long as he shows sufficient contrition. We've had so many awful people as companions already. Sten massacred an entire family for trying to help him, Leliana and Zevran talk lightly of the times they banged people only to kill them, Oghren flew into a drunken rage and split a guy in two because of an insult, Loghain did all the Loghain things... And that's only DA:O! Hardly anyone approaches those characters realistically, and Solas' distinction is merely one of scale. Anders. Yet most of the fanbase seems to keep him alive every time. Apart from those who cannot stop themselves yelling terrorist any time he enters the screen, or those who go on harping how the Circles/templars/Chantry/Meredith do nothing wrong because of him?
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Post by colfoley on Sept 17, 2020 8:32:32 GMT
This is clearly a case where in any remotely realistic circumstances the question of whether the unrepentant genocidal maniac is "redeemable" is patently absurd, but in a D&D-ish fantasy setting that faces a world-ending scenario every other Thursday anything's possible so long as he shows sufficient contrition. We've had so many awful people as companions already. Sten massacred an entire family for trying to help him, Leliana and Zevran talk lightly of the times they banged people only to kill them, Oghren flew into a drunken rage and split a guy in two because of an insult, Loghain did all the Loghain things... And that's only DA:O! Hardly anyone approaches those characters realistically, and Solas' distinction is merely one of scale. Anders. Yet most of the fanbase seems to keep him alive every time. As a practical matter one possible rational (and the one my Hawk used, well she also loved the bastard so there was that...) is that the middle of a crisis is hardly a time to have a trial to determine someone's guilty or innocence. Doubly so considering that crisis could've used an extra hand to do some real arse kicking with. Granted not exactly sure if Thedas as the same legal procegures as we do in the United States, but it seemed like a good enough justification at the time.
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Post by kalreegar on Sept 17, 2020 10:11:31 GMT
We (the writers) have to consider that Solas is not a "common villain". He's a demi-God. He's practically immortal, with adeep knowledge of magic, a unique understanding of the essence of things, of the "fabric of the world", a pluri-millennial experience, incredible abilities, powerful...
our protagonist will be he will certainly be an ordinary guy, gifted and skilled, but still an ordinary guy.
So "rediming Solas", "persuade him to change his mind", would be something difficult to write. It's like a primitive man trying to convince Einstein (but with the personality of Putin and the experience of 100 of the greatest historical figure combined) not to create and use the atomic bomb. We may simply not have enough arguments, or a sufficient levels of understanding of how things are, or graps his perspective.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Sept 17, 2020 10:26:08 GMT
We may simply not have enough arguments, or a sufficient levels of understanding of how things are, or graps his perspective. The plot will probably revolve around discovering and ''*summoning'' an ancient force as great as him to distract or stop him.
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Post by Reznore on Sept 17, 2020 10:44:48 GMT
The plot will probably revolve around discovering and ''*summoning'' an ancient force as great as him to distract or stop him. Flemythal send a piece of herself somewhere before she died. She used to keep her pantheon in check (more or less) when they were going too far. So hopefully she prepared something.
She did help during DAO, DAII, DAI afterall.
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Post by kalreegar on Sept 17, 2020 10:49:47 GMT
We may simply not have enough arguments, or a sufficient levels of understanding of how things are, or graps his perspective. The plot will probably revolve around discovering and ''*summoning'' an ancient force as great as him to distract or stop him. I hope not. A fantasy lore in in which different uber-mega powerful figures begin to emerge, each with its own agenda (solas, the evanarius, another archdemon, the forgetten ones, etc), perhaps in conflict with each other, becomes very complicated to manage. Because the classical "ordinary" protagonist who from humble beginnigs climbs the ranks and then saves the world thanks to skill and courage, actually becomes useless. Helpless He risks becoming simply the guy who has to convince/summon the good super-mega entity to face the bad super-mega bad guy. Like the Justice League. Hold the line in there until Superman arrives. Meh. So anticlimatic, especially in a RPG, Already Solas alone is very difficult to handle... if he becomes just "one of many"... A good rule in every media IMO is that the power level between good guys and bad guys should never become too unbalanced. You can be an underdog, but not an insect facing a cruel and almost omnipotent god.
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Post by witchcocktor on Sept 17, 2020 10:58:41 GMT
The plot will probably revolve around discovering and ''*summoning'' an ancient force as great as him to distract or stop him. I hope not. A fantasy lore in in which different uber-mega powerful figures begin to emerge, each with its own agenda (solas, the evanarius, another archdemon, the forgetten ones, etc), perhaps in conflict with each other, becomes very complicated to manage. Because the classical "ordinary" protagonist who from humble beginnigs climbs the ranks and then saves the world thanks to skill and courage, actually becomes useless. Helpless He risks becoming simply the guy who has to convince/summon the good super-mega entity to face the bad super-mega bad guy. Like the Justice League. Hold the line in there until Superman arrives. Meh. So anticlimatic, especially in a RPG, Is it though? I can't help but feel that most people don't really care about being a hero or personally being the one to defeat the big bad.
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Post by kalreegar on Sept 17, 2020 13:08:37 GMT
I hope not. A fantasy lore in in which different uber-mega powerful figures begin to emerge, each with its own agenda (solas, the evanarius, another archdemon, the forgetten ones, etc), perhaps in conflict with each other, becomes very complicated to manage. Because the classical "ordinary" protagonist who from humble beginnigs climbs the ranks and then saves the world thanks to skill and courage, actually becomes useless. Helpless He risks becoming simply the guy who has to convince/summon the good super-mega entity to face the bad super-mega bad guy. Like the Justice League. Hold the line in there until Superman arrives. Meh. So anticlimatic, especially in a RPG, Is it though? I can't help but feel that most people don't really care about being a hero or personally being the one to defeat the big bad. It can work once or twice, but I don't recall many fantasy/sci-fi story/rpgs where you are a secondary helpless figure in the great scheme of things, and your main goal is to allert/call/evoke/awake a mighty powerful benevolt entity that will defeat di big bad guy, because you personally dont' stand a chance against him. It's the weakness of Mass Effect 3, btw. You can stop a reaper by yourself and with your allies, you can destroy the collectors with a single ship, good intelligence and a good team, but a fleet of 100000 reapers? Not even if you recruit every single race and every single ship in the galaxy. So you need a deus ex machina to kill them all in a single blast (the crucible). And Mass Effect 3 isn't even that bad. But it's diffucult to to handle a situation where you and your friends (insects) are facing a God. can it be done with Solas? Yes. Just don't escalate, putting too many deities and entities with out-of-scale powers on the board.
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 17, 2020 13:36:35 GMT
Here is how to redeem Solas quickest:
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N3
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Post by xerrai on Sept 17, 2020 15:44:27 GMT
The plot will probably revolve around discovering and ''*summoning'' an ancient force as great as him to distract or stop him. Flemythal send a piece of herself somewhere before she died. She used to keep her pantheon in check (more or less) when they were going too far. So hopefully she prepared something.
She did help during DAO, DAII, DAI afterall.
I don't know. Mythal may have been about justice and keeping people in check, but this Flemeth seems to be...different. Which makes sense, since Mythal was greatly reduced and was but a wisp when she found Flemeth. But her endgame makes me anxious. Apparently she's aiming for a "Vengeance that will shake the very heavens". We can reasonably assume the target of this vengeance doesn't involve Solas either since she basically let him take her power as opposed to either killing him or just hiding away where she can't be found by him. Which would mean she is likely targeting someone else, and these person or persons are on the other side of the veil... Still, she does have some stuff going for her. Like the fact that seems to see modern thedosians as people since she referred to Merrill as one of The People (probably due to the fact Flemeth is a human host who was around for thousands of years). But with her proclivity to save things from the old world and her "precipice of change" speeches, she actually sounds like someone who would support Solas. At least for a time. All for her own plans which we barely know anything about. Flemeth is one those characters who make me think they will either become our greatest ally or our greatest enemy.
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Post by vertigomez on Sept 17, 2020 15:52:25 GMT
The earwigs are ready. What happens next is none of my business.
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∯ Oh Loredy...
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 17, 2020 16:00:33 GMT
On the offf chance Solas does prove to be 'too stubourn to be redeamed' I would pay for a dialogue option that says something along the lines of "Solas, you have failed this continent!/Thedas" before having to put an arrow through his eye Something that would also appeal to me is using his own words to Dorian back at him. Solas: I'm really sorry that I am going to destroy your world. PC: If you are truly sorry then save all the races, not just one. Solas: I don't know that I can do that. PC: Then how sorry are you?
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Now with HESH rounds!
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Stolen by inquisition forces.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Trebuchet_MkIV
[(e^x )- 4]
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Post by The Biotic Trebuchet on Sept 17, 2020 16:41:07 GMT
How much big migh have to be the Pie to fit this puppy inside it? I half expect that if you follow the "good side" road in the story he will pull a "oh, i was wrong all alone, forgive me *insert elvish word*. *throws himself into the abyss* " or if you follow the "bad side", you will have to fight him in a 1v1 thunderdome
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