dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,941 Likes: 17,668
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 19, 2021 22:02:40 GMT
I'm sure Bioware thinks it's a fantastic idea. Considering how all the old squaddies can be dead, they’re not wrong. It is a better idea, if just on a practical level. Unless you are referring to Ryder’s squaddies, but considering they said ME4 instead of ME5 I doubt they meant that. If they're looking to appease (to some extent) fans of ME, throwing out the squadmates is just stupid. They are just as valued as Shep/Ryder.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 19, 2021 22:31:37 GMT
One of my favorite things about these games is getting to build up a character and getting to know the roster and build the relationships and earn their camaraderie, and building a new history, rather than simply relying solely on the past as a supplement (or crutch, frankly). I can’t do that shit if it’s just Shepard and the same goddamn people. I think there's merit in the connection established between the characters and exploring those bonds further. The new comrades are only worth it, as long as they are a hit with their audience. And there's no promise that they will be. There's not promise that they won't be, but it's more likely that they won't be. Again, when ME2 was released, everyone was talking about it and the squad. I understand it is the least popular game in this forum, but at the time and in general, that's not the case. And it goes to show that no cast of characters that Bioware has introduced since, has quite hit the mark like the ME2 crew did. Everyone that remembers the time back then, will attest to that. And since then we had SW:ToR, DA2, ME3, DA:I, ME:A and Anthem. We've had six games and no squad matched that popularity. And these characters had 1 game to themselves, with the exception of Garrus and Tali. They didn't require 2 more games to be this liked, as some people claim is required for the ME:A cast. I've said it before; it is difficult and nigh nonrepeatable. And of course at some point you're going to retire them, that is inevitable, but you do it when these characters no longer carry the franchise. That's when their potential is depleted. And I understand the "quantum character" argument, but as we've established with Liara's return, that convention is broken. You can force retire a character, or the entire cast, but that doesn't mean it's what the audience wants, nor that it will follow you, unconditionally, especially after a such controversy about it. And just remember, when Todd Howard was asked about the damage Fallout 76 did to the Fallout franchise, he said it would be naive to think otherwise. And we have people here saying "we don't know" whether ME3, ME:A and Anthem have damaged the Mass Effect and Bioware brands. Todd Howard would call you naive. Bioware making a new game and telling the gaming public "trust us, you'll like it this time" when that's literally what they had gone out and said about ME:A and Anthem and don't get me started about the promises they had made about ME3, but this time people will believe it is true. I call bullshit. Nobody, of the people who disliked these games, in their right mind would think that. And you know what would the beauty of having Shepard and friends return? Even if it's just for one standalone game? It leaves the window of their return open. You don't have to make another game with them, ever, if you don't want to. Just leave the window open for the fans. They'll be a lot more accepting to the idea of a new crew, if they know that the old crew might return. Even if you never bring them back again. Bring them back once in 10 years, maybe, if even that. For the Star Power. Just leave the window open. It will work wonders for Bioware. It's no worse than making more Trek with Kirk and co. And the beauty of video games, you won't need to recast anyone, but the voice talent, eventually. They can look the same, forever. At least the human crew members, where it matters.
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dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,941 Likes: 17,668
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Biotic Booty
1031
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Apr 19, 2024 16:40:05 GMT
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dmc1001
9,941
August 2016
dmc1001
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 19, 2021 22:43:43 GMT
You don't have to make another game with them, ever, if you don't want to. If I'm being honest, I wouldn't make another game with any of them, ever. The game accomplished what it was supposed to and, even though it's not at the end, the Citadel dlc was the final sendoff. There's no need to revisit them. However, if we're going to have a return of Shep, at least some of the squadmates have to be there
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 19, 2021 22:52:31 GMT
One of my favorite things about these games is getting to build up a character and getting to know the roster and build the relationships and earn their camaraderie, and building a new history, rather than simply relying solely on the past as a supplement (or crutch, frankly). I can’t do that shit if it’s just Shepard and the same goddamn people. I think there's merit in the connection established between the characters and exploring those bonds further. The new comrades are only worth it, as long as they are a hit with their audience. And there's no promise that they will be. There's not promise that they won't be, but it's more likely that they won't be. Again, when ME2 was released, everyone was talking about it and the squad. I understand it is the least popular game in this forum, but at the time and in general, that's not the case. And it goes to show that no cast of characters that Bioware has introduced since, has quite hit the mark like the ME2 crew did. Everyone that remembers the time back then, will attest to that. And since then we had SW:ToR, DA2, ME3, DA:I, ME:A and Anthem. We've had six games and no squad matched that popularity. And these characters had 1 game to themselves, with the exception of Garrus and Tali. They didn't require 2 more games to be this liked, as some people claim is required for the ME:A cast. I've said it before; it is difficult and nigh nonrepeatable. And of course at some point you're going to retire them, that is inevitable, but you do it when these characters no longer carry the franchise. That's when their potential is depleted. And I understand the "quantum character" argument, but as we've established with Liara's return, that convention is broken. You can force retire a character, or the entire cast, but that doesn't mean it's what the audience wants, nor that it will follow you, unconditionally, especially after a such controversy about it. And just remember, when Todd Howard was asked about the damage Fallout 76 did to the Fallout franchise, he said it would be naive to think otherwise. And we have people here saying "we don't know" whether ME3, ME:A and Anthem have damaged the Mass Effect and Bioware brands. Todd Howard would call you naive. Bioware making a new game and telling the gaming public "trust us, you'll like it this time" when that's literally what they had gone out and said about ME:A and Anthem and don't get me started about the promises they had made about ME3, but this time people will believe it is true. I call bullshit. Nobody, of the people who disliked these games, in their right mind would think that. And you know what would the beauty of having Shepard and friends return? Even if it's just for one standalone game? It leaves the window of their return open. You don't have to make another game with them, ever, if you don't want to. Just leave the window open for the fans. They'll be a lot more accepting to the idea of a new crew, if they know that the old crew might return. Even if you never bring them back again. Bring them back once in 10 years, maybe, if even that. For the Star Power. Just leave the window open. It will work wonders for Bioware. It's no worse than making more Trek with Kirk and co. And the beauty of video games, you won't need to recast anyone, but the voice talent, eventually. They can look the same, forever. At least the human crew members, where it matters. I could just as well argue that the follow-up on these previously established bonds will most likely be boring and meandering, because the writers are probably going to wear these characters thin after they all got their respective conclusions, and now they’re just using them as low effort nostalgia grabs. We might just get hollow shells of what these characters were. It could just end up like Star Wars. We embrace mediocrity like The Mandalorian, because relatively speaking, it’s still a better experience than the sequel trilogy, even if it does so while running primarily on fumes, memberberries, and a hugely marketable puppet. But, this could just as well turn out even worse, failing even to make the most of that memberberry potential, and all these characters people were clamoring for were ruined, because the developers were too bankrupt to do anything meaningful with them. If the idea here is that BioWare is too inept to create new characters, and has to lean on the old ones, I see no reason to look forward to anything more they do here. I personally don’t see the beauty of Shepard returning as the protagonist, because all I see is a cheap, safe option that a committee came up with in some sort of risk assessment meeting. It certainly doesn’t inspire anything in me but more cynicism.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 19, 2021 23:02:49 GMT
If I'm being honest, I wouldn't make another game with any of them, ever. The game accomplished what it was supposed to and, even though it's not at the end, the Citadel dlc was the final sendoff. There's no need to revisit them. So was Return of the Jedi. The reason why people wanted a sequel trilogy, was because they wanted to see Han, Luke and Leiah in the Millenium Falcon one more time. It'll be 14 years since we said goodbye to them, when then next game will be released. It's enough time to have them return. Halo said goodbye to the Chief and Cortana in Halo 3. How many times have we had them back, since? 2? 3 times? We said goodbye to the TNG crew in the end of the show's run, then we had the movies, we had the characters back in DS9, we had them back in Voyager, in Enterprise, we had TOS characters in TNG, it happens all the time, everywhere. Sendoffs are arbitrary, intentions are temporary. If you leave the window of return open, you don't even need to make a sendoff. It's a "until next time", even if the "next time" never happens. It will happen eventually, Bioware might even remake the original trilogy at some point, if they're still alive as a studio, with race swapped characters ( I can't wait until I see Jack as a proud lesbian woman of colour who don't need no man) because the original was too problematic. The only thing that's in question is the when. In one form or the other, it's going to happen.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 19, 2021 23:12:47 GMT
If I'm being honest, I wouldn't make another game with any of them, ever. The game accomplished what it was supposed to and, even though it's not at the end, the Citadel dlc was the final sendoff. There's no need to revisit them. So was Return of the Jedi. The reason why people wanted a sequel trilogy, was because they wanted to see Han, Luke and Leiah in the Millenium Falcon one more time. It'll be 14 years since we said goodbye to them, when then next game will be released. It's enough time to have them return. Halo said goodbye to the Chief and Cortana in Halo 3. How many times have we had them back, since? 2? 3 times? We said goodbye to the TNG crew in the end of the show's run, then we had the movies, we had the characters back in DS9, we had them back in Voyager, in Enterprise, we had TOS characters in TNG, it happens all the time, everywhere. Sendoffs are arbitrary, intentions are temporary. If you leave the window of return open, you don't even need to make a sendoff. It's a "until next time", even if the "next time" never happens. It will happen eventually, Bioware might even remake the original trilogy at some point, if they're still alive as a studio, with race swapped characters ( I can't wait until I see Jack as a proud lesbian woman of colour who don't need no man) because the original was too problematic. The only thing that's in question is the when. In one form or the other, it's going to happen. The hilarious thing about that sequel example is that every single original character was absolutely ruined, and then killed them for good measure. It’s almost impressive how spectacularly they all failed. It honestly would have been better if they were all just dead and gone before TFA. Shepard should return as a shopkeeper on the Citadel, and our new protagonist intimidates them into getting a discount. In the endgame, Shepard [unsuccessfully] defends the Citadel against invaders, and in the news, the headline simply reads “Unknown Shopkeeper bravely defends the Citadel.”
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 19, 2021 23:43:06 GMT
I could just as well argue that the follow-up on these previously established bonds will most likely be boring and meandering, because the writers are probably going to wear these characters thin after they all got their respective conclusions, and now they’re just using them as low effort nostalgia grabs. Actually, I have some ideas about a lot of characters. I even have ideas for Kelly Chambers. Granted, most of my ideas are about characters I care more about, but that doesn't mean the others can't have interesting arcs. For example: Now that the genophage is cured, Wrex is at odds with the other clans. Without the monopoly of the fertile females, he can't bargain his position and even as a hero, he will have enemies trying to wrestle power from him, with the Krogan potentially returning to their old ways. Grunt, after the eradication of Aralakh company, faces a lot of prejudice from the other Krogan, for being tankborn. They question his skill to lead, without Shepard, believe he only came upon his squad leader position, because of Shepard's ties with Wrex. Perhaps Grunt would even have to leave Tuchanka permanently, if not able to prove his battle and leadership capabilities. Miranda's relationship with Oriana gets stressed, after the revelation about Henry. The implications about Miranda being something more to her, than just her sister. Also, while she did help with the war, she is still a wanted criminal, for working with Cerberus. She will have to work a deal with Alliance for the charges to be dropped and that may not be on the cheap. After the graduation of her students, Jack has difficulty returning to Grissom, especially after what happened last time. She still has a gripe with Cerberus leftovers, for trying to kill her kids, for what they had done to her past and simply being too attached to her students to move forward. Her gripe with Cerberus may lead her to working with Miranda and exploring that relationship, which we didn't get to in the games. Their budding friendship might even help Miranda's relationship with Oriana, with Jack working as a buffer between the two. Kelly can work as a psychiatrist on the ship, for Shepard, who, after experiencing another near death experience, the added strain of physiotherapy to get back in shape and perhaps experiencing some failures from his cybernetics, requires to work through some of the issues he didn't have time to, especially considering the dreams he was having during ME3. Tali, if she is back from the garden planet, can either board the Normandy as an ambassador for the Quarians, helping various races/settlements alongside Shepard, in return for resources in rebuilding Rannoch, or offering the flotilla's resources, now that it is being dismantled to produce domiciles back on Rannoch and there's plenty of fertile land available to them, to feed the ones racked by the war, in order to get support and ensure a place on the council for the Quarians and what better way to do so, than to visit people in need, at Shepard's side. Garrus might suffer a personal tragedy, like losing his dad, which drives him away from Palaven. Dives right back in at fighting crime alongside Shepard, to escape his sorrow and find some refuge in his relationship with Shepard, until he is able to live with his emotions. Especially since his relationship with his dad had always been tense. Considering Liara is coming back, regardless, I am sure Bioware has some idea about what they want to do with her. Samara has the added problem of a destroyed Thessia, in her effort to restore Falere's monastery. Resources are scarce and help won't be found, if she stays in Thessia. With the Justicar order destroyed, her only living ally is Shepard, who she asks for help. Unable to leave Falere behind, she needs someone she can trust and who is aware of Falere's condition, to take both of them along, as Samara seeks old alliances of the Justicar order to rebuild the Monastery. Falere remains on the ship and can be interacted with (possibly voiced by Maggie's daughter) and may perform a few songs for the crew, while on the Normandy. Which leaves us with Kaidan/Ashley, Vega and EDI. I can leave that to someone else, since I don't really care for them. I am sure we can find something for them to do. Maybe Kaidan/Ashley and Vega get command of their own ships? EDI can be experiencing some problems with her code, which causes her some malfunctions over time. Shepard will have to look for leftover Reaper code in Prothean caches to repair her, or her quantum box will become too unstable and her personality matrix will get erased. There. Samantha helps her locate the caches. Oh, I forgot Jacob. That's OK, because Bioware probably did, as well.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 19, 2021 23:56:24 GMT
I think it’s safe to assume that no matter what, the ME2 characters are not going to show up at all.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 20, 2021 0:03:46 GMT
I think it’s safe to assume that no matter what, the ME2 characters are not going to show up at all. You'd assume the same for Liara, because as of ME3, she is Quantum state too, yet here we are. At this point, anything and everything should be on the table. Or Bioware is getting another shitstorm on their hands.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 20, 2021 0:08:32 GMT
If I'm being honest, I wouldn't make another game with any of them, ever. The game accomplished what it was supposed to and, even though it's not at the end, the Citadel dlc was the final sendoff. There's no need to revisit them. So was Return of the Jedi. The reason why people wanted a sequel trilogy, was because they wanted to see Han, Luke and Leiah in the Millenium Falcon one more time. It'll be 14 years since we said goodbye to them, when then next game will be released. It's enough time to have them return. Halo said goodbye to the Chief and Cortana in Halo 3. How many times have we had them back, since? 2? 3 times? We said goodbye to the TNG crew in the end of the show's run, then we had the movies, we had the characters back in DS9, we had them back in Voyager, in Enterprise, we had TOS characters in TNG, it happens all the time, everywhere. Sendoffs are arbitrary, intentions are temporary. If you leave the window of return open, you don't even need to make a sendoff. It's a "until next time", even if the "next time" never happens. It will happen eventually, Bioware might even remake the original trilogy at some point, if they're still alive as a studio, with race swapped characters ( I can't wait until I see Jack as a proud lesbian woman of colour who don't need no man) because the original was too problematic. The only thing that's in question is the when. In one form or the other, it's going to happen. this will be a place holder post while i get more time later and kind of a thesis argument. But i didn't really. Luke, Han, and Leias stories concluded satisfactorially in RoTJ. I expected maybe cameos and passing of the torch maybe between luke and a new generation of characters and wanted to explore new facets of SWs. Same with any franchise. Now Rian Johnson and co decided to give us a further exploration of Luke in Episode 8...much to my chagrin...but then they still managed to do amazing things with it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 20, 2021 0:10:13 GMT
For all we know, Liara isn’t even in the game. They could have just used her for the trailer that isn’t even really about a game specifically but more just the status of the franchise. It’s not the first time they’ve done that. After all Jien Garson was in the MEA trailers and yet she died before the game started. And Shepard was in another MEA trailer and was never in it at all, only mentioned.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 20, 2021 0:17:39 GMT
I think it’s safe to assume that no matter what, the ME2 characters are not going to show up at all. You'd assume the same for Liara, because as of ME3, she is Quantum state too, yet here we are. At this point, anything and everything should be on the table. Or Bioware is getting another shitstorm on their hands. Key difference here is that the ME2-specific team members are disposable, and their disposability led to diminishing returns in terms of their content even within the trilogy, so no, I wouldn’t assume the same for Liara, because the one and only way to kill her off is to get the worst world state all the way to the end. Unless BioWare decides to just canonize their survival and give them major roles, they will likely not appear, and instead we’ll just get a new set of periphery characters. It would be silly to think that BioWare isn’t going to at least create a few new characters for us to interact with.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 20, 2021 0:23:04 GMT
For all we know, Liara isn’t even in the game. They could have just used her for the trailer that isn’t even really about a game specifically but more just the status of the franchise. It’s not the first time they’ve done that. After all Jien Garson was in the MEA trailers and yet she died before the game started. And Shepard was in another MEA trailer and was never in it at all, only mentioned. That’s actually a fair point. For all we know, Liara could just be a voice in an intro, like Morgan Freeman in the War of the Worlds movie, and we never even see her because she’s long gone or off doing NPC things far away. It’s hard to gauge from these cinematics since they’re completely unreflective of the final product, but I wouldn’t be surprised if BioWare doesn’t have a full grip on what it is they’re actually making at this stage.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 20, 2021 0:26:46 GMT
this will be a place holder post while i get more time later and kind of a thesis argument. But i didn't really. Luke, Han, and Leias stories concluded satisfactorially in RoTJ. I expected maybe cameos and passing of the torch maybe between luke and a new generation of characters and wanted to explore new facets of SWs. Same with any franchise. Now Rian Johnson and co decided to give us a further exploration of Luke in Episode 8...much to my chagrin...but then they still managed to do amazing things with it. While I do understand your personal stance, this doesn't mean it was the expectation for 7-8-9. The massive backlash to Luke's portrayal in TLJ and public reaction to the Mandalorian S2 finale tends to prove otherwise. For all we know, Liara isn’t even in the game. They could have just used her for the trailer that isn’t even really about a game specifically but more just the status of the franchise. That is not the expectation created and even so, besides the massive misstep, if we are to "unpack" stuff from the trailer, something needs to be derived from it. If the point of the trailer is that nothing is to be taken literally, Liara's survival among them, then this is less than a teaser. This is literally false advertising. This is malevolently misleading. It’s not the first time they’ve done that. After all Jien Garson was in the MEA trailers and yet she died before the game started. And Shepard was in another MEA trailer and was never in it at all, only mentioned. It is established, in the trailer, that Shepard is not taking part in the Initiative. I don't know how invested people were in Jien Garson, to see in Andromeda. But Jien was an actual person, even if she died. There was no guarantee that Jien was alive when the Initiative reached Andromeda. Liara can die in the end of ME3, before she grows to the age we see her in the trailer. If she is "Quantum state" present in the Will Continue, that means that the trailer never happened in some people's playthroughs, which ... means false advertisement.
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Post by smilesja on Mar 20, 2021 0:28:56 GMT
So was Return of the Jedi. The reason why people wanted a sequel trilogy, was because they wanted to see Han, Luke and Leiah in the Millenium Falcon one more time. It'll be 14 years since we said goodbye to them, when then next game will be released. It's enough time to have them return. Halo said goodbye to the Chief and Cortana in Halo 3. How many times have we had them back, since? 2? 3 times? We said goodbye to the TNG crew in the end of the show's run, then we had the movies, we had the characters back in DS9, we had them back in Voyager, in Enterprise, we had TOS characters in TNG, it happens all the time, everywhere. Sendoffs are arbitrary, intentions are temporary. If you leave the window of return open, you don't even need to make a sendoff. It's a "until next time", even if the "next time" never happens. It will happen eventually, Bioware might even remake the original trilogy at some point, if they're still alive as a studio, with race swapped characters ( I can't wait until I see Jack as a proud lesbian woman of colour who don't need no man) because the original was too problematic. The only thing that's in question is the when. In one form or the other, it's going to happen. this will be a place holder post while i get more time later and kind of a thesis argument. But i didn't really. Luke, Han, and Leias stories concluded satisfactorially in RoTJ. I expected maybe cameos and passing of the torch maybe between luke and a new generation of characters and wanted to explore new facets of SWs. Same with any franchise. Now Rian Johnson and co decided to give us a further exploration of Luke in Episode 8...much to my chagrin...but then they still managed to do amazing things with it. Don't want to derail but Luke's character and arguably the sequel trilogy had been placed off its rails due to Rian's meddling.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 20, 2021 0:34:08 GMT
this will be a place holder post while i get more time later and kind of a thesis argument. But i didn't really. Luke, Han, and Leias stories concluded satisfactorially in RoTJ. I expected maybe cameos and passing of the torch maybe between luke and a new generation of characters and wanted to explore new facets of SWs. Same with any franchise. Now Rian Johnson and co decided to give us a further exploration of Luke in Episode 8...much to my chagrin...but then they still managed to do amazing things with it. While I do understand your personal stance, this doesn't mean it was the expectation for 7-8-9. The massive backlash to Luke's portrayal in TLJ and public reaction to the Mandalorian S2 finale tends to prove otherwise. For all we know, Liara isn’t even in the game. They could have just used her for the trailer that isn’t even really about a game specifically but more just the status of the franchise. That is not the expectation created and even so, besides the massive misstep, if we are to "unpack" stuff from the trailer, something needs to be derived from it. If the point of the trailer is that nothing is to be taken literally, Liara's survival among them, then this is less than a teaser. This is literally false advertising. This is malevolently misleading. It’s not the first time they’ve done that. After all Jien Garson was in the MEA trailers and yet she died before the game started. And Shepard was in another MEA trailer and was never in it at all, only mentioned. It is established, in the trailer, that Shepard is not taking part in the Initiative. I don't know how invested people were in Jien Garson, to see in Andromeda. But Jien was an actual person, even if she died. There was no guarantee that Jien was alive when the Initiative reached Andromeda. Liara can die in the end of ME3, before she grows to the age we see her in the trailer. If she is "Quantum state" present in the Will Continue, that means that the trailer never happened in some people's playthroughs, which ... means false advertisement. I think it’s safe to assume that whatever world state BioWare were to go with, it would always be the one that reflects the optimal EMS value. Liara’s fate obviously doesn’t exist in a vacuum. If she dies, that also means that every single character on the Normandy dies too.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 20, 2021 0:43:12 GMT
Key difference here is that the ME2-specific team members are disposable, and their disposability led to diminishing returns in terms of their content even within the trilogy, so no, I wouldn’t assume the same for Liara, because the one and only way to kill her off is to get the worst world state all the way to the end. Unless BioWare decides to just canonize their survival and give them major roles, they will likely not appear, and instead we’ll just get a new set of periphery characters. It would be silly to think that BioWare isn’t going to at least create a few new characters for us to interact with. They've done that, with diminishing returns, six times now, after ME2. To remove them again, even the LIs, even after the complaints for sidelining them again in ME3 and even in the Citadel DLC, when they are still popular and relevant, 11 years later now, to bring Liara back alone, who can still be quantum state herself, regardless of how easy or hard it is to do it, is not only stupid, it is preferential and hypocritical. Shows that they do not stick to their word and do not care to be held accountable. They are purposefully selective to enforcing their own rule. Either it's everyone, or nobody. And they already ruled out the nobody. And if you are OK with being selective about enforcing a rule that affects everyone across the ME fandom ... well. You understand the implication. You don't make a rule and then pick and choose to who and how it gets enforced. Liara is either quantum state or she isn't. There's no in-between. All I ask, is equal treatment for all characters across the board, no hypocrisy from the devs. We've had enough of that already.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 20, 2021 1:04:40 GMT
For all we know, Liara isn’t even in the game. They could have just used her for the trailer that isn’t even really about a game specifically but more just the status of the franchise. That is not the expectation created and even so, besides the massive misstep, if we are to "unpack" stuff from the trailer, something needs to be derived from it. If the point of the trailer is that nothing is to be taken literally, Liara's survival among them, then this is less than a teaser. This is literally false advertising. This is malevolently misleading. It’s not the first time they’ve done that. After all Jien Garson was in the MEA trailers and yet she died before the game started. And Shepard was in another MEA trailer and was never in it at all, only mentioned. It is established, in the trailer, that Shepard is not taking part in the Initiative. I don't know how invested people were in Jien Garson, to see in Andromeda. But Jien was an actual person, even if she died. There was no guarantee that Jien was alive when the Initiative reached Andromeda. Liara can die in the end of ME3, before she grows to the age we see her in the trailer. If she is "Quantum state" present in the Will Continue, that means that the trailer never happened in some people's playthroughs, which ... means false advertisement. People should never develop expectations from these kinds of trailers. There is something derived from the trailer, something far more important than any one character: Mass Effect will be getting more games. Showing quantum state stuff is not false advertisement, or if it is Bioware has already been doing it for decades. Their trailers show one protagonist when the protagonist doesn't have to have that face or even sex, their trailers show romances when the player might be with someone else or nobody at all, some trailers showed certain characters who could be dead like Ashley or Kaidan, and so on.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 20, 2021 1:07:36 GMT
Key difference here is that the ME2-specific team members are disposable, and their disposability led to diminishing returns in terms of their content even within the trilogy, so no, I wouldn’t assume the same for Liara, because the one and only way to kill her off is to get the worst world state all the way to the end. Unless BioWare decides to just canonize their survival and give them major roles, they will likely not appear, and instead we’ll just get a new set of periphery characters. It would be silly to think that BioWare isn’t going to at least create a few new characters for us to interact with. They've done that, with diminishing returns, six times now, after ME2. To remove them again, even the LIs, even after the complaints for sidelining them again in ME3 and even in the Citadel DLC, when they are still popular and relevant, 11 years later now, to bring Liara back alone, who can still be quantum state herself, regardless of how easy or hard it is to do it, is not only stupid, it is preferential and hypocritical. Shows that they do not stick to their word and do not care to be held accountable. They are purposefully selective to enforcing their own rule. Either it's everyone, or nobody. And they already ruled out the nobody. And if you are OK with being selective about enforcing a rule that affects everyone across the ME fandom ... well. You understand the implication. You don't make a rule and then pick and choose to who and how it gets enforced. Liara is either quantum state or she isn't. There's no in-between. All I ask, is equal treatment for all characters across the board, no hypocrisy from the devs. We've had enough of that already. Seems to me like that makes a solid case for just not bothering with Shepard and co. at all. I can say with absolute certainty that BioWare is not going to juggle all of these past love interests and consolidate them into a single game, and frankly, they’re better off not even trying. This isn’t even accounting for the obligatory fresh faces, because BioWare’s never going to make a new game, and not add in a few new characters. I would say this all-or-nothing thing is just going to end in disappointment. If you ask me, I would’ve stayed in Andromeda. It’s certainly starting to look like the cleaner option, but I guess the fans have spoken. It’ll be interesting to see what it’s like to see their wish come true.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 20, 2021 1:14:14 GMT
People should never develop expectations from these kinds of trailers. There is something derived from the trailer, something far more important than any one character: Mass Effect will be getting more games. Showing quantum state stuff is not false advertisement, or if it is Bioware has already been doing it for decades. Their trailers show one protagonist when the protagonist doesn't have to have that face or even sex, their trailers show romances when the player might be with someone else or nobody at all, some trailers showed certain characters who could be dead like Ashley or Kaidan, and so on. Then the trailer is all lies and there's nothing to unpack. Which makes Bioware liars again. But as I told you over a year ago, Liara will be back and in increasingly larger quantities, per title, to help Bioware sell their games. Liara is not going away and the trailer is confirmation of it. You can say it, but I would not have predicted that on my own, that long ago, if it weren't true. If we are not meant to take away anything from Bioware's trailers, ever, neither should we have expected to see the Andromeda Initiative, or get any game we've got in the past from them. Some things are true. Liara will return.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 20, 2021 1:19:08 GMT
For all we know, Liara could be the one technically passing the torch, because everyone else has come down with a severe case of death. If that’s the case, there’d technically be no lie in the trailer.
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Post by ahglock on Mar 20, 2021 1:25:40 GMT
So was Return of the Jedi. The reason why people wanted a sequel trilogy, was because they wanted to see Han, Luke and Leiah in the Millenium Falcon one more time. It'll be 14 years since we said goodbye to them, when then next game will be released. It's enough time to have them return. Halo said goodbye to the Chief and Cortana in Halo 3. How many times have we had them back, since? 2? 3 times? We said goodbye to the TNG crew in the end of the show's run, then we had the movies, we had the characters back in DS9, we had them back in Voyager, in Enterprise, we had TOS characters in TNG, it happens all the time, everywhere. Sendoffs are arbitrary, intentions are temporary. If you leave the window of return open, you don't even need to make a sendoff. It's a "until next time", even if the "next time" never happens. It will happen eventually, Bioware might even remake the original trilogy at some point, if they're still alive as a studio, with race swapped characters ( I can't wait until I see Jack as a proud lesbian woman of colour who don't need no man) because the original was too problematic. The only thing that's in question is the when. In one form or the other, it's going to happen. The hilarious thing about that sequel example is that every single original character was absolutely ruined, and then killed them for good measure. It’s almost impressive how spectacularly they all failed. It honestly would have been better if they were all just dead and gone before TFA. I think that was the intent. I think they felt if they character assassinated or killed off the OG characters the new ones would look good in comparison. Bad decision.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 20, 2021 1:36:37 GMT
So this seems about as good as time as any to talk about this sort of thing but this has been on my mind a LOT lately. Ever since I was watching through Lorerunner's run through Halo and he posed the question: "Can we have a Halo Game without Master Chief?" And this is one of the most existential questions in fandom for me and one of the most fascinating to debate. Can we have Mass Effect without Shepard? Can we have 24 without Jack Bauer? Can we have Harry Potter without Harry Potter? Can we have Star Trek without Kirk and Picard? Can we have Star Wars without Luke Skywalker? And on the one hand I can understand that everyone has preferences and their ideals. It is always nice seeing our favorite characters return to kick butt. It is always nice feeling that comfort and security and get to enjoy them again. Always nice to play as Shepard, always nice to take Garrus out into the field again. Furthermore I do think that this is not as clear cut. It does vary from franchise to franchise...for instance 24 without Jack Bauer is very hard to imagine and Harry Potter without Harry Potter in it would seem to be an especial non starter. However on the other hand I tend to have two big problems with the mindset: 1. Its hella sad. Maybe this is being a bit dramatic given how many franchise have answered this question yes but I do feel sorry for people who can no longer enjoy a universe just because their favorite characters or a cast is out of it. I mean I am sure there are other reasons but a lot of the commentary I do read around here seems to center around an existential sadness at the inability to play as Shepard again...a character we last saw, at best, taking a single breath under a pile of rubble. Yes, enjoy what you want and dislike what you don't for any reason but it seems an awfully prohibitive mind set to have. 2. More importantly though from a writer/ creator perspective it is hella limiting. If BioWare has to ALWAYS tell stories about Shepard and Vakarian then that means they cannot expand and grow the universe. It'll always be stuck with them. There will eventually be no room for new stories within the setting with new characters to get to know and enjoy. Stories get old, there are natural ends, voice actors retire or get too old...or die...it eventually becomes prohibitively difficult to keep on going to that same well over and over again. And yet I also find this attitude prohibitive in the sense that...can we really imagine Mass Effect without Mordin, or Miranda, or Thane? What if it was always Wrex/Tali/Garrus and Liara? Hell one of my favorite squad mates in the entire series was only introduced in ME 3, with James Vega. this will be a place holder post while i get more time later and kind of a thesis argument. But i didn't really. Luke, Han, and Leias stories concluded satisfactorially in RoTJ. I expected maybe cameos and passing of the torch maybe between luke and a new generation of characters and wanted to explore new facets of SWs. Same with any franchise. Now Rian Johnson and co decided to give us a further exploration of Luke in Episode 8...much to my chagrin...but then they still managed to do amazing things with it. Don't want to derail but Luke's character and arguably the sequel trilogy had been placed off its rails due to Rian's meddling. Things like this bug me. I wasn't bringing it up to start a debate, merely to...as I said...do some prepwork for my above post.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 20, 2021 1:50:19 GMT
Seems to me like that makes a solid case for just not bothering with Shepard and co. at all. I can say with absolute certainty that BioWare is not going to juggle all of these past love interests and consolidate them into a single game, and frankly, they’re better off not even trying. This isn’t even accounting for the obligatory fresh faces, because BioWare’s never going to make a new game, and not add in a few new characters. Again, this is their own rule. They can only offer equal treatment, or no treatment. Meaning they have to kiss Liara goodbye. For all we know, Liara could be the one technically passing the torch, because everyone else has come down with a severe case of death. If that’s the case, there’d technically be no lie in the trailer. Still the only quantum character returning. Still hypocritical.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 20, 2021 2:05:58 GMT
colfoleyI am not asking for straight, back to back Shepard sequels. I am asking, since Bioware are definitely bringing Liara back, to do so equally for all quantum characters and not show preferential treatment. Which makes the Quantum state irrelevant, because then we all know that Quantum means only consequences for everyone that isn't Liara. Again, this is hypocrisy. If they are going to do away with their own rule, then it should be equal for every character, across the board. No preferential treatment. And as I said, make 1 game and leave the window open, even if you never intend to return to them again. It makes it easier to go with a new crew. Forcefully removing the potential of ever returning, did not go well. At some point, you have to retire the Shepard and crew, just don't do it in a way that will (did) piss people off and it can be this title.
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