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Post by bierkrug on Nov 16, 2022 22:07:45 GMT
And what if Alistair isn´t King? Again there are players who won´t play the game with same choices as you. ...you're aware he is king in Bioware canon? I.e. the standard setting when not using the keep, aka probably the world state most DA4 players will experience? The one world state Bioware will always have to account for? Not every quantum character's state has to receive equal screentime. Also there are far more characters that were handwaived back to life than just Leliana. Oghren for one can die in DAO and is back in DAA, saying he just got a headache.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Nov 16, 2022 22:25:38 GMT
...you're aware he is king in Bioware canon? I.e. the standard setting when not using the keep, aka probably the world state most DA4 players will experience? The one world state Bioware will always have to account for? So what? Bioware still have to consider all possible options for every possible world state. They don´t this in Alistair´s case not for first (Awakening), second (DA 2) or third time (DAI). For DAD this would be fourth. And my opinion its highly unlikely to impossible that they change their mind after one Addon and 2 main games there they have respected the playerchoice regarding Alistair. And? It´s true they did that with Oghren but again you can´t compare Oghren with Alistair. You have to work hard on disapproval to get the kill Oghren event but like Leliana Oghren´s death is pretty optional death which the overwhelming majority of players won´t get to see.
Edit: Starting with DAI i would argue that Bioware have stop to recton character deaths. And No in my opinion Corypheus and also Samson doesn´t count. And for DAD i also won´t consider Sten and Calpernia as dead character because we never seen their death onscreen.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 17, 2022 8:33:14 GMT
Edit: Starting with DAI i would argue that Bioware have stop to recton character deaths. And No in my opinion Corypheus and also Samson doesn´t count. And for DAD i also won´t consider Sten and Calpernia as dead character because we never seen their death onscreen. I don't think they will be doing this in the future. I think they said as much following the Leliana backlash. The explanation for her survival in the epilogue to Trespasser was clearly them feeling they needed to address it in some way. Nor do I think they will pull another Anders in the future, as that not only seemed to contradict some world states but also the timeline following the Blight. If Alistair turns up in DA:D it will likely only be if he is still in the Wardens, with the alternative being Loghain or Stroud, just as was the case in DAI. Leliana was being put into retirement at the end of Trespasser or was Divine. Any appearance by her would been connected to the latter role, which means there would have to be the alternative of Cassandra or Vivienne, which I think highly unlikely. The only one of the three characters mentioned in the original post who would have a legitimate reason to appear would be Morrigan, but her VA has stated she was not involved at the date she made her tweet. So, I think it unlikely we will see her in the main story either or only in a very small segment, which could be recorded late on in the process. As for returning antagonists, I think you are right that they left enough wiggle room that they could bring back Corypheus or Samson in the future but I think it is highly unlikely. Ditto the Architect. Unless the assassination of Arishok Sten is what led to the Antaam going rogue, there is a good chance we will see him if the plot involves a meeting/confrontation with the Arishok. As you say, there was no body in Calpernia's "death" and WoT2 was also very ambiguous about it, so will not be surprised if they do bring her back in some way in DA:D, maybe even under a different identity if she was trying to break her ties with the Venatori. According to WoT2 Calpernia was not her real name. I wonder if true names are going to be a theme of DA:D. Rasaan was said to be searching for Solas' true name. There was the elusive figure of the Viper in that short story. I'm pretty sure Strife isn't his real name and he seems likely to appear. So, if Calpernia returns under a different name, it would fit with this trend.
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Post by bierkrug on Nov 17, 2022 9:47:17 GMT
So what? Bioware still have to consider all possible options for every possible world state. Again: Not every quantum character's state will receive equal attention. Already in DAI, king Alistair has a lot less screentime than warden Alistair. By your logic, it shouldn't matter that Oghren's death is a rare occurence, because somewhere out there there are people with this world state. Me, I wouldn't care if they pruned their tree of former decisions a bit as long as the resources they save that way go to the right places. Also the aknowledgement for Leliana's death in the end slides was an asspull if I've ever seen one.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Nov 17, 2022 20:36:16 GMT
I don't think they will be doing this in the future. I think they said as much following the Leliana backlash. The explanation for her survival in the epilogue to Trespasser was clearly them feeling they needed to address it in some way. Nor do I think they will pull another Anders in the future, as that not only seemed to contradict some world states but also the timeline following the Blight. We all have to understand that DAO and also surprisingly DAA were designed with no sequel in mind. DAO also could have flopped like Jade Empire so they haven´t planned that much. I would argue if they had known that Dragon Age 3 is a thing back then and they needed Leliana i highly doubt that we could ever killed Leliana in DAO. So yes i believe the Leliana backflash had a big impact. I mean in DAI (not Trespasser!!!) which character could really be killed? All companions and major NPCs including the three main baddies were safe. Ok i meant more DA2 to DAI but you aren´t wrong here. I also agree that Corypheus and Samson shouldn´t come back. Samson should be long dead at 9:52 and Corypheus i guess it´s theoretically possible but why bring him back for a third time? In Legacy he was a fine DLC Boss but for a full game aka DAI he was terrible. Also it would be very anticlimactic for DAI as a whole that the main big bad have survived. I disagree if they had the right story for him to appear well let´s say the return of the Architect in DAD won´t surprise me. I don´t know what role Calpernia plays in DAD but there is no way in hell that she isn´t in DAD. She is without any doubt a favourite within Bioware. And unlike Alistair she could appear in all possible world states regardless of the playerchoices.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Nov 17, 2022 21:01:39 GMT
Again: Not every quantum character's state will receive equal attention. Already in DAI, king Alistair has a lot less screentime than warden Alistair. Does this really matter? King Alistair hadn´t much to do but this has to more to do with the story Bioware wanted to tell then getting equal attention. But you know what? It´s possible that they gave Warden Alistair more things to do because he hadn´t been in Awakening and his warden cameo was the shortest of all three so that the end it could be argued as "equal"
Also Alistair has to be one of the few characters with more than one fates so this makes him even more a quantum character than the most. The context still does matter here. Of course Bioware had consider all outcomings regarding Oghren but unlike Alistair they thought that they could explain for the very few player who he can possible have survived. I don´t say its a good explanation (same goes for Leliana) but for Alistair they can´t possible all of his fates and retcon it. I disagree (strongly i must say) with you. If players have hated Leliana survival that much i can´t imagine what they think about Alistair surviving his execution or his big sacrifice against the archdemon. And this may surprise some players but there are many players (not me) who are preferring Anora over Alistair as ruler of Ferelden.
Last but not least sorry i don´t get why DAD needs Alistair besides the obvious fanservice. In my opinion bringing Alistair back (no offense i like him but he doesn´t make sense in Tevinter) is a waste of resources. Especially as Warden there his role is shared with Loghain and Stroud. I know i know that Alistair and Dorian are quite different but personality wise they share some character quirks.
So why bring Alistair back if DAD already has Dorian?
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 18, 2022 8:29:50 GMT
Ok i meant more DA2 to DAI but you aren´t wrong here. I also agree that Corypheus and Samson shouldn´t come back. I feel my misunderstanding was understandable. I don't believe you can actually kill Samson in DA2 can you? As for Corypheus, I don't think his appearance in DAI came as a surprise to anyone other than Varric and Hawke. I remember the discussion about Legacy as soon as people had played it and pretty much everyone had picked up on the fact that he had probably "jumped" to Larius/Janeka. You could see something going on in the background after we "killed" him with the Grey Warden holding their head and then his cryptic words and knowing smile as he walked away. That's why, when the trailer came out with his voice over, people were immediately saying "that's Corypheus" and "we knew it", rather than "we killed him!". Admittedly, most people on the boards had also played DAO, so were familiar with the concept of soul jumping by the arch-demon, so perhaps it would have been more of a surprise to players new to the setting in DA2 but the fact is it wasn't total surprise within the lore, apart from the problem that they have never addressed, which is that the "soul can't be forced on the unwilling" and soul jumping to a Warden by the arch-demon is said to kill them both. That was my main objection at the time with respect to the Corypheus soul jumping episode but have assumed that since he can control the minds of Wardens, he just ensures that the target warden is "willing". If you meant with respect to the reasoning for bringing them back in DAI, Corypheus made a lot more sense than Samson. It was odd that he would choose such a washed-up Templar or even ex-Templar for his main lieutenant leading the Red Templars. Any Templar would be susceptible because of their lyrium addiction and Samson had never been a leader among the Templars up to then, so what convinced Corypheus he would make a good leader that they would follow? Nor was Samson a "fan favourite", so it has always been a puzzle to me, although I suppose that could account for it if they felt the necessity to use someone from DA2. After all, if he wanted to subvert anyone, you would think Corypheus would have targeted Cullen, but I dare say they knew that there would have been an outcry by his fans if they had made him a major villain.
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Post by bierkrug on Nov 19, 2022 10:29:30 GMT
I disagree (strongly i must say) with you. If players have hated Leliana survival that much i can´t imagine what they think about Alistair surviving his execution or his big sacrifice against the archdemon. And this may surprise some players but there are many players (not me) who are preferring Anora over Alistair as ruler of Ferelden. Well, I mean there is this This tweet represents pretty well what I've also heard on general gaming podcasts. We who are in this forum are probably a minority of people who really deeply engage with the continuity of every minute decision from three games ago. Most gamers don't really go that far, especially not 8 years later. Obviously the big decisions will be remembered but there are plenty of smaller things that don't stick. Also I don't see how anyone can equate Dorian and Alistair. One is a refined gentleman and the other is a country boy oaf. They give some very different personality to their respective parties. I don´t say its a good explanation (same goes for Leliana) but for Alistair they can´t possible all of his fates and retcon it. But they kind of already did. Drunkster Alistair was reintegrated with warden Alistair.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 19, 2022 13:53:49 GMT
But they kind of already did. Drunkster Alistair was reintegrated with warden Alistair. That was plausible since Teagan came to shepherd drunken Alistair back to Ferelden and so it might be assumed they decided the best thing would be to get him integrated back into the Wardens as that was one of the few places where he really felt he belonged. It is less of a stretch than trying to explain why Alistair was no longer dead. Most gamers don't really go that far, especially not 8 years later. Obviously the big decisions will be remembered but there are plenty of smaller things that don't stick. I would agree but whether or not Alistair died in DAO was a pretty big thing. For example, my first run (which for many might be their only run), Alistiar volunteered to make the ultimate sacrifice, so I'd think it really odd if he turned up in DA:D, particularly as he wouldn't have appeared in either DA2 or DAI because of my choice. Of course, if I hadn't bothered with the Keep and accepted dev canon, presumably that might have made a difference to my experience in DAI (is Alistair automatically king?) and so I wouldn't be bothered if I saw him again in DA:D. I suppose it does all come down to what the writers want to do for their story and their principal target audience. Since, as you point out, casual gamers aren't going to be bothered either way, I suppose it depends on how bothered they are about pleasing their hardcore fans. Personally, I don't mind if they want to make a particular decision canon, so long as they can make it make sense in relation to alternative choices. Otherwise, why bother with choices at all that are going to carry on being significant beyond a particular game? Just have all branching paths end in the same ultimate destination. I think they have done this to a large extent since DAO, with variations just accounted for by codices and different dialogue. After all, Hawke and the Inquisitor always survive the story. We even know from the final scene of Trespasser that our decision about the Inquisition is really cosmetic, since our core team is still active regardless of whether we disband or not. Certain companions can be dead at the end but they weren't vital to the story as a whole as we weren't even obliged to recruit them in some cases. Whilst we could have intended certain things to happen or advised people in certain ways, it would be easy enough to suggest that this was overturned after we were no longer Inquisitor, or they subsequently decided to disregard our advice. It is even clear from the epilogue to Trespasser that other decisions that affected the status quo would seem to be returning back to something like normality in the south. As we are travelling to a completely different part of Thedas, I don't expect to see anyone who isn't connected to there in some way, nor do I expect the majority of my decisions in previous games to have any real impact on my new experience.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Nov 21, 2022 19:56:02 GMT
I don't believe you can actually kill Samson in DA2 can you? Well its implied that Samson also gets executed if Hawke choose this. But old videogame rule no body not dead. No one in the fandom had asked for Samson return nor did it made sense in the first place but Samson serving Corypheus isn´t something that DAI had pull out of nowhere. May i remind you of this codex entry? "Yesterday, I saw a man I could swear was Larius, just walking around Lowtown. I wasn't sure at first, but that armor, that hair... he's unmistakable. He was talking to Samson, of all people. I can't imagine what a Grey Warden commander and an ex-templar vagrant have in common, but they seemed intent in their discussion. When I came closer, Larius pulled Samson into a doorway—I don't know if he saw me or not, but it seemed almost like they were avoiding me." dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_A_Strange_SightingChoices should have some impact in the sequels but if Bioware had to recton some minor parts i don´t see any problem. The big difference between DAO Leliana and DAO Oghren vs Alistair and DA 2 Anders that first two deaths are optional and take not take place in a major quest where the player have decide. Second besides Anders & Justice (who they ignore almost everything) Bioware tried to explain why event XYZ hadn´t happened the same way as players had expected. I am sorry and yes i am fully aware that Leliana and Oghren survival explanations are "lame" but those deaths aren´t a heroic sacrifice against a powerful dragon or and execution.
I really must ask for what or why is worth it to bring Alistair back if this would ruin this final heroic act?
Last but not i agree that with Tevinter as setting the overwhelming majority of the previous decisions won´t matter (or more than codex entries or small dialogue changes). Why should they? Alistair is a ferelden character without business in Tevinter. Yes he had his one adventure but this was about his father Maric.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Nov 21, 2022 20:16:20 GMT
Well, I mean there is this This tweet represents pretty well what I've also heard on general gaming podcasts. We who are in this forum are probably a minority of people who really deeply engage with the continuity of every minute decision from three games ago. Most gamers don't really go that far, especially not 8 years later. Obviously the big decisions will be remembered but there are plenty of smaller things that don't stick. etcon it.But they kind of already did. First David Gaider doesn´t work for Bioware any longer and second your argument is really that gamers won´t care?
Yes this is true that the average player won´t care but this included also returning characters. Only the fans care because they remember and played those previous games. I know this sounds weird but i would bet that atleast 50% of the DAD playerbase haven´t played a DA game before. So why should they care about King Alistair a character which don´t mean anything to them? Simple they both are lighthearted characters with a unique sense of humour. It´s really no surprise that those two along with Anders have so much in common besides their different backgrounds. Gervaise21 already explained this but come one explaining that someone is getting sober is on a whole other level than heroic dying. Also in DA 2 it took years before Alistair changed his mind. So i really have no problems that they reintegrated Drunk Alistair with Warden Alistair because what more stories can they possible write after the last scene with him and Teagan in DA 2?
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 22, 2022 8:31:18 GMT
No one in the fandom had asked for Samson return nor did it made sense in the first place but Samson serving Corypheus isn´t something that DAI had pull out of nowhere. May i remind you of this codex entry? They didn't pull it out of nowhere, but it made even less sense that Corypheus had selected Samson as a potential leader of the Red Templars that early on. It made sense that he would approach Samson to pump him for inside information on the Templars in Kirkwall and, of course, this may have originally meant to have been laying the groundwork for the Exalted March DLC that was subsequently cancelled. In that Cory did indeed take over Kirkwall having subverted the Templars there. Samson was also well known for trafficking escaped mages, so if Cory wanted to redirect them to himself, that would also account for his interest in Samson. It is not that there wasn't a proven connection in DA2 between Cory and Samson that I was questioning but the idea that of all the ex-Templars across southern Thedas that he could have chosen as his main deputy, he decided upon Samson. Since they were happy to go with a completely new mage, Calpernia, as his deputy with the mages, why not go for a previously unknown Templar as his deputy there? This is why I think the most likely explanation is that the codex was connected with the abandoned DLC and various plot elements from it were transferred over to DAI. It is just about plausible that Samson could have become leader of the rogue Templars in Kirkwall in view of his personal connection with them.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Nov 22, 2022 19:52:49 GMT
Since they were happy to go with a completely new mage, Calpernia, as his deputy with the mages, why not go for a previously unknown Templar as his deputy there? I would argue that they couldn´t find one from the already existing mages who isn´t quantum character and is also an somewhat interestering character. Someone on Reddit had suggested Alain or Emile but those won´t make sense and would be pretty forced as Corypheus genereal of his mages. And personal don´t see both at them especially not as villians. This is very likely the case. Also Bioware connected Samson and Cullen way more than they planned for the Exalted March DLC. Maybe they could a better Ex Templar as Corypheus General but i doubt they couldn´t find a better dark mirror version of Cullen.
Or maybe they always liked Samson and wanted to do more things with him from a writers point of view. We the fans can´t always find a logical explanation for Biowares decision. So why Samson? Why not? Bioware atleast for the DA series seem to be interested in what happened to pretty minor characters which can easily be new characters. I highly doubt that no one in the fandom would had chosen to bring Samson, Fairbanks, Isabela and especially of all people DAO Merrill back and flesh them out.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 23, 2022 8:09:42 GMT
Someone on Reddit had suggested Alain or Emile but those won´t make sense and would be pretty forced as Corypheus genereal of his mages. And personal don´t see both at them especially not as villians. I don't know about that. Alain had previously ended up on the wrong side twice and only realised his "mistake" when things went bad on them. He had also suffered abuse in the Circle, so there was a fair bit in his background for Corypheus to work with in subverting him. However, the main objection to Alain is that he definitely isn't a natural leader and probably wouldn't want to be if offered the opportunity. As for Emile, whilst I could see him being subverted by Corypheus, he was an absolute idiot who would have made a terrible leader and I imagine even Cory could see that. One of the interesting aspects of Calpernia was that out of all the Venatori mages he could have selected, including many Altus from Tevinter, he chose an ex-slave because he recognised her natural power and potential. It would seem to be a rare instance of him showing insight and common sense in his selection of the sub-ordinates he entrusted with advancing his plans because, let's face it, Florianne and Erimond weren't great and didn't seem to have much to recommend them other than their overwhelming ambition. However, my point was that you don't have to use someone familiar to previous players. Calpernia was an interesting character and the sub-plot involving her was far more interesting than that of Samson. The only part that I liked about his sub-plot was Madox, who we hadn't previously met, although we did know why Samson had been expelled from the Templars. That is probably the reason they brought him back but still doesn't explain why Corypheus selected him out of all the Templars he had available to him. That is what I am questioning because, as with Alain, I didn't see Samson as leadership material based on what we knew of him from DA2.
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