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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 1, 2021 4:01:53 GMT
If the geth followed them, they would have destroyed them before they even reached the relay. Relay doesn't exist. They only have sub light engines because technology doesn't develop like a skill tree. In this case they developed Geth to reach primitive AI status before they developed interstellar travel. Self preservation wouldn't send ships to their death simply to hunt down the Quarians that were doomed to die anyways. “Oh yes, ‘relays’. I thought we dismissed this claim.”
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 1, 2021 7:10:50 GMT
I would have made the Reapers the vanguard of an even more advanced species/collection of species, sent to wipe out civilizations that are deemed too warlike/backwards to ascend and join the greater inter-galactic community. Hmmm.. if they wipe out species which are too backward to join, wouldn't that mean nobody ever gets to join? Well, without going into too much detail, in my version of the ending, it would be possible for Shepard to dismantle their logic in dialogue options, and from there, either convince them to cease hostilities for a peaceful ending, or rally the Milky Way and achieve galactic peace in service of taking revenge on their aggressors.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Feb 1, 2021 7:31:08 GMT
I would have made the Reapers the vanguard of an even more advanced species/collection of species, sent to wipe out civilizations that are deemed too warlike/backwards to ascend and join the greater inter-galactic community. Hmmm.. if they wipe out species which are too backward to join, wouldn't that mean nobody ever gets to join? Given that this is the Mass Effect universe, wouldn't everyone be too stupid? Hell, all the leading governments that we have seen so far could not even find their asses if you stuck a big old neon sign pointing downwards. 🤣
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 1, 2021 10:18:24 GMT
Given that this is the Mass Effect universe, wouldn't everyone be too stupid? Hell, all the leading governments that we have seen so far could not even find their asses if you stuck a big old neon sign pointing downwards. 🤣 So. Much like Earth politicians.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Feb 1, 2021 10:26:57 GMT
Given that this is the Mass Effect universe, wouldn't everyone be too stupid? Hell, all the leading governments that we have seen so far could not even find their asses if you stuck a big old neon sign pointing downwards. 🤣 So. Much like Earth politicians. Lol, so true! 😆
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Post by Radec on Feb 1, 2021 17:31:51 GMT
If the geth followed them, they would have destroyed them before they even reached the relay. Relay doesn't exist. They only have sub light engines because technology doesn't develop like a skill tree. In this case they developed Geth to reach primitive AI status before they developed interstellar travel. Self preservation wouldn't send ships to their death simply to hunt down the Quarians that were doomed to die anyways. Why do they only have sublight engines? Also the geth were invented hundreds of years after the quarians had colonized neighboring systems (via FTL) and found their relay, not before. (1858 CE to be precise, according to the geth server mission and the timestamp of the first log). You realise Mass Relays aren't the only FTL tech in universe, right? They're just much faster and don't have the static charge bleed off issue. How the hell you think the Kett colonized Andromeda with no relays? How do you think we go to other star clusters in the same relay systems without taking years? The quarians probably wouldn't have found the Citadel races (being on the opposite end of the galaxy in the Terminus, decades or hundreds of years away by normal FTL) but they could've colonized their own near space like planets of the Tikkun and Dholen systems (as they did, E.G. Haestrom). Maybe even met the Batarians in the Traverse And anyway all the quarians do after losing Rannoch is float around skimming helium 3 for fuel off gas giants, cracking open asteroids for water and materials, and growing food in space. What do the Relays and Council have to do with surviving like that? Their main hinderance is the age and condition of their ships (which are only just starting to be unservicable 300 years later), and the stronger Council having claims on everything near their space (not possible without Relays) making them unable to find a new world to settle. The Council is if anything a huge hindrance, preventing them from settling new worlds and making their existence more difficult (e.g. Ekunna). They also didnt help at all with the geth, all they did was banish the quarian fleet from entering their borders and strong arm them off worlds in the Traverse. How is the quarian survival contingent on them? If anything, they're the ones making it more difficult than it should be. Your premise is based on headcanon that only exists in your mind, and even if it weren't, we can't actually account for butterfly effect from the Relays not being there, and how it would've affected the quarian. Or even if they exist, since the lack of this tech would have also effected hundreds of other cycles and made the galaxy look very different. All pointless supposition. All we know is that given the same tech the organic species out innovated and defeated the synthetic one, which instead of banking on survival was razor focused (almost like an unthinking machine) on building a Dyson Sphere in the dumbest place possible (the star system its creators wanted back and were actively planning to attack) when they could've built it around any star in the middle of nowhere, in a far more defensible position light years from a Relay or any organic habitable system, where they couldn't be bothered by organics even if the organics wanted to kill them (thst assuming they could even find them) In fact the geth not doing that makes me think they're so stupid they'd have found a way to lose, regardless. Of course, this whole discussion is, as I said wild, pointless supposition. Probably best to work with the actual data points we have than manufacturing prehistory.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
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At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
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To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Feb 1, 2021 21:16:58 GMT
Heard the original yesterday so thought it was applicable.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
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To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Feb 1, 2021 22:06:35 GMT
Hmmm.. if they wipe out species which are too backward to join, wouldn't that mean nobody ever gets to join? Well, without going into too much detail, in my version of the ending, it would be possible for Shepard to dismantle their logic in dialogue options, and from there, either convince them to cease hostilities for a peaceful ending, or rally the Milky Way and achieve galactic peace in service of taking revenge on their aggressors.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 2, 2021 15:51:26 GMT
Why do they only have sublight engines? Also the geth were invented hundreds of years after the quarians had colonized neighboring systems (via FTL) and found their relay, not before. (1858 CE to be precise, according to the geth server mission and the timestamp of the first log). Because FTL is only capable though Mass Effect Technology. That technology was reverse engineered from Prothean tech. Which was ultimately created by the Reapers and left for other races to find and utilize. This is part of Sovereign's whole speech about "you develop along the line we want you to" on Virmire. Element Zero is very rare and only shows up in a few systems that the Quarians would not be able to reach with sub light ships. At least not reach easily.
It is about 4.2 light years from Sol to the nearest star. Meaning at sub light speed we are talking decades to travel. And neutron stars and pulsars generally do not carry habitable worlds. Meaning the Quarians would have to already know about element zero and it's properties and locations. Build a generation ship with all the mining and radiation equipment. Send it off for a couple of decades or more depending on how far the closest star is that would produced element zero. Land, build a settlement with all the radiation protection. Mine and refine the element. Then build a fully functional drive core, trial and error the static build up and then finally after creating a final production ship send it back to Rannoch with the cargo holds full of element zero and the plans for fully functioning FTL drive cores to be mass produced on Rannoch. All of this would take hundreds of years.
The Quarians being the only race in the galaxy that learned about element zero and developed FTL drives using mass effect technology without reverse engineering prothean tech would be a massive accomplishment that would have been worth of mentioning if for no other reason then to highlight how far the Quarians have fallen since the Morning War. But across all the games, books and comics this is never mentioned meaning it is safe to assume that the Quarians developed mass effect technology the same way everyone else did. By reverse engineering Prothean tech or by having the technology given to them by another race that already reverse engineered the Prothean tech.
Mass Relays rely on mass effect technology to operate. You can not approch a relay without a mass effect drive core and still utilize it. ME2 made that very clear when going though the Omega relay when it super charges the drive core to throw you into the center of the galaxy.
The Kett's equivalent requires stasis technology to keep people alive for long trips. Traveling from Sol to Palavin would require a massive ark ship with stasis technology for people to survive the trip. Otherwise they require massive farming, waste and other resources to support a population for one or two generation before they reach the light of another cluster.
When you are evaluating your planet with what ever ships are left of your decimated navy you generally don't have time to equip the ships with all the necessary infrastructure to support a population of several million people being crammed on ships designed to support a few hundred at best.
And how do they refine those minerals and fuel? How do they grow all those planets? If you could so easily do all that then there would be no refueling stations in space because every ship can simply make all they need. There would be no reason for any ship to ever need to go into dry dock for repairs or refits because they could simply visit an asteroid belt and fully upgrade the ship. Ships could never become in disrepair as they would constantly be able to repair it as if it is brand new.
I am highly skeptical that the ships would have industrial manufacturing as standard. Small scale for simple repairs to fix problems until you reach a space port yes. However it is highly possible for them to buy old or unused ships and retrofit them with said industrial manufacturing capabilities. Take an old cargo hauler and gut it and fill it with industrial manufacturing equipment. Thus allowing them to produce materials on the scale needed for wide spread and long term support of the flotilla. However this is only possible if they can reach another developed race that has reached the scale of being able to sell old ships and the industrial manufacturing capabilities.
Which would require the Quarians to spend decades if not centuries traveling though space. Particularly since Rannoch is the farthest away from any other race's home planet.
Completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.
We can account based on what we know of distances and travel speeds. Sub light drives go slower then light speed. We know from Earth to the nearest system would take 4 years traveling at light speed. Voyager 1 probe is traveling at 37k miles per hour and it would take 80,000 years to reach it because it is traveling at 1/18000th the speed of light.
Even assuming the Quarians managed to get even more power out of similar ideas and reduced the trip to 15 years. That is still 15 years traveling on ships with millions of people crammed into ships designed to only support a few hundred at a time with no real way to resupply. On top of that no mass effect technology means no artificial gravity. Which means outside of any ship parts that rotate you would be floating in space for decades or hundreds of years. And we already know the effect of 0 gravity on human bodies over a couple of years. Decades of floating though space would have it's own problems that effect Quarian biology rendering them almost if not completely unable to handle regular gravity.
Your statement about other cycle is kind of hypocritical given your other posts on this specific thread.
No this is important because you and others who think similar to you like to yell how wrong the catalyst is because of events that took place. But you ignore that these events only took place because of direct or indirect meddling by the Catalyst. Which means you remove the direct or indirect interference and events will play out much differently. In this case the removal of mass effect technology and by effect FTL and relay ability. Which even keeping everything else the same still has the remains of the Quarian race pointing their ships to the nearest star and hoping that there is a planet they can settle on and that their fuel and other supplies can last 30 years with a population of several million.
If they can't keep their engines running and generating power for 30 years to create a magnetic barrier to deflect small space debris then hitting a pebble at 30% the speed of light would rip though the ship like they were hit with a tank round. And while you could easily avoid the larger bit the small pebbles and space dust would impact the ship and compromise hull integrity in hundreds of locations at once.
Any ships arriving at the nearest star system would look like they just went though a war. And each time they slowed down to mine minerals to repair would reduce their total fuel amounts as they would need to burn fuel to slow down and then burn fuel to accelerate again. In the blackness of space there is no gas giants to scoop H3 from to process into fuel. The only source would be any found in the asteroids they were to mine. And if they did not find enough to refuel the whole fleet then they would be forced to leave ships behind setting hundreds to thousands to their slow death in space so the greater population of Quarians could survive.
Even your example here shows Reaper intervention. The Quarians were only able to engineer their anti Geth weapon BECAUSE of Sovereign sending the heretics to try and take over the Citadel. This gave far more contact with Geth then the galaxy has had since the Morning War. Which gave Quarians like Tali more chances to snag bits of Geth tech and ship it back to the Flotilla to be studied and reverse engineered allowing them to develop their tools that gave them the advantage. Literally all your "examples" that you and others like to use to disprove the Catalyst's conclusion literally are the results of the Catalyst's meddling in it's goals to preserve organic life from synthetic life at all costs.
Or to put it another way you are standing in the current day USA and saying that the Civil Rights Movement wasn't needed because black people are treated equally today. Even though the Civil Rights Movement was a massive reason why black people are treated more fairly and evenly. And if you remove the Civil Rights Movement from history things would be drastically different.
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Post by Radec on Feb 2, 2021 16:20:00 GMT
Donald Trump should've hired you. That's an excellent wall.
Unfortunately, it's still relying on cherry picked assumptions and wishful supposition design to fit your pre-ordained conclusion
For instance, why are you assuming the quarian being limited to Reaper based FTL designs when we are discussing what might have happened without Reapers? We know that the Mass Effect technology itself is a trap, and that there are alternate paths to the same end. Not my words, Legion itself states this in ME2 and it's proven out in Andromeda. There's more than one way to skin a cat.
However, I've already said, its a pointless thought exercise. For all we know, without Reapers the quarian world is colonized by a different dextro-amino species a billion years ago and its environment altered to the point that the quarian never evolve and thus the geth are never created.
It's more likely than your supposition of there being no Reapers but the quarian still coming up with the exact same drive design that is deliberately gimped to coerce species into reliance on the Relays (thus enabling the Citadel trap work in the first place).
I digress.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 2, 2021 17:38:34 GMT
Unfortunately, it's still relying on cherry picked assumptions and wishful supposition design to fit your pre-ordained conclusion The irony of that statement is so thick you could walk on it.
With Andromeda and the Kett the game never gets into details about how much the FTL capabilities of Kett ships differ from Milky Way. The Kett have also been out in the Andromeda galaxy for potentially thousands of years. And we have no idea yet if the Kett were gifted or reverse engineered tech from the Jardaan who have achieved tech on par with the Reapers. Nor how long that specific race has been active in the Andromeda Galaxy. If the Kett reverse engineered Jardaan tech and the Jardaan have been a space faring race for 100,000 years that would be more then enough time to develop the technology and for a less advanced race to reverse engineer that technology to form a crude imitation of it. After all the Jardaan created the Angara. A race of organic beings created synthetically from the manipulation of DNA. Potentially even programing them with a history and culture before releasing them onto various garden worlds.
Frankly we do not have a lot of background information of the various Andromeda races to be able to use them as any sort of factual stance as of yet. If BioWare fleshes them out more with more background information then maybe.
As long as you say that the Catalyst is wrong because X happened in the series this is not pointless. Without Reapers the various thrall races continue to invent synthetic life and is wiped out by it until the thrall races figure out how to block Leviathan's mind control abilities and then revolt against them instigating a galaxy wide bloody conflict. Which has no guarantees of any sort of peaceful united races that survived the war after killing or exiling the Leviathans. All while the races continue to invent synthetics and continue to be wiped out one race at a time. Possibly even faster given synthetic being would make excellent soldiers.
Oh they could come by the same drive design eventually. But it would take a long long time. And technology develops at different rates. Without a steady supply of element zero there would be no testing or ability to learn and manipulate mass effect fields. To get Element Zero would require colonization ships to be sent out into the void at sub light speeds to travel decades or more.
They would have to land on a planet or system with high element zero concentrations and survive the radiation wasteland that the star system would create. Without knowing the properties and sources of it the odds of targeting a system with a colonization ship are incredibly small. Like you have a better chance to win the lotto while being attacked by a shark and struck by lightening.
It isn't an impossibility but it would be thousands and thousands of years before the necessary events were to take place to have that end result. All while other technological fields would not be restricted. Best show cased by the real world. We are already dipping our toes into the very basics of AI development. Yet simple space flight into the outer atmosphere is still increabily costly and lacking any energy efficiency. So much so that although we can reach the moon we haven't been there or set up a colony there because it simply isn't worth the effort and we lack the technology and capabilities to launch the needed materials to build a permanent base on the moon.
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Post by Hrulj on Feb 4, 2021 22:37:42 GMT
Reapers were ultimately right. I found it silly that people believed they are wrong because it's possible to make peace with the Geth. They are talking about things on a galactic timescale, millions and billions of years and potential conflict with synthetics over such a timescale is basically an inevitability. The same goes for question of will United States nuke Great Britain. Of course the answer is no in the current situation but no guarantees can be made on a billion year timescale.
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