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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2021 2:30:49 GMT
I'm looking at it and seeing DA4 as a SP like previous DA releases … as opposed to a MP GAAS online game like Anthem. If it doesn't include a MP side game, I'm OK with that, but it would be nice to have that option … perhaps developed by Austin (the folks who were working Anthem and having MP experience), while Edmonton focuses on the SP element.
The other thought I had … perhaps we will see the return of DLC … so game support could extend for quite some time. I would prefer the DLC be more along the lines of The Descent and Jaws of Hakkon … rather than Trespasser. I loved Trespasser, but I think it should have been part of the base game. Perhaps the DLC is where we could meet up with characters we've read about in DA books. Those folks can't all show up in the main game, but if they could get their stories continued in DLC … that would be cool.
Maybe the new leadership in EA sees the value in game concepts that are not limited to GAAS like the previous CEO. A publisher that could actually let BioWare grow and thrive at what it has traditionally done best, creating deeply developed fantasy and sci-fi universes and telling us compelling stories … that we can be a part of … across multiple games.
I'm sure we'll find out more details in the coming months … but for now, happy to see DA4 on a track that has a higher chance of succeeding.
I'm sorry Anthem failed, but if that means DA and ME franchises have a better chance of success *shrug* then it's for the best.
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Post by shaqfu on Feb 26, 2021 2:34:35 GMT
Oh good! They won't have to craft the combat system around balancing 2 different modes this time then. Which hopefully means no more ridiculous limit on what learned abilities we are able to have active at a single time.
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Post by river82 on Feb 26, 2021 2:39:24 GMT
I find a new protagonist for each game to be a smart move which continues what's happened in parts 1-3, BioWare has previously described new protagonists as their preferred approach and it's a good way to allow new players into the franchise. It's a smart move, so long as the previous protagonist's stories are finished. I've stated many times: If DAI ended with the vanilla ending, I'd have no qualms with some new protagonist dealing with Solas. But Trespasser directly involved the old one. It'd be like if ME3 had Coates as the protagonist instead of Shepard I never really liked the new protagonist every game thing anyway. I always get attached to characters in a story and when the story continues focusing on another character I feel a lot less interested for a bit and have to work my interest back up. It's the same for novels with many PoV characters, I don't like reading them. If each game was a new story I'm fine with that, but I always felt like the Dragon Age story continues in a different part of the world with different characters which is annoying to me. The world is the main star kinda, which is completely fine, but I never really like those stories unfortunately  It's partly why I always thought Andromeda should continue with Ryder even though I don't like Ryder very much, but starting with a new main character would be annoying for me and it'd be really hard to justify the resurrection of Shepard.
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Post by telanadas on Feb 26, 2021 3:43:17 GMT
I am so glad they have confirmed this (finally) because their whole deal about the live service aspect in the first place made me very skeptical about the quality of DA4. At the same time I also can't help but feel this is all deflection from the Anthem announcement yesterday.  |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 26, 2021 3:50:27 GMT
I am so glad they have confirmed this (finally) because their whole deal about the live service aspect in the first place made me very skeptical about the quality of DA4. At the same time I also can't help but feel this is all deflection from the Anthem announcement yesterday. Because that’s exactly what it is. Trying to paint that betrayal as something we should be thankful for. |
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Post by colfoley on Feb 26, 2021 4:14:59 GMT
So I have thoughts lol. For those who believe that LS is purely about MP this is welcome news...however for those of us who accepted the Hudson et all definition of it being about post launch content this could be alarming. And since none of the tweets or stuff I have read touches on this aspect...its vague enough to be worrying. Will DA 4 get live service style updates by another name? Considering some employees reportedly dismissed the game as "Anthem with Dragons", and considering this is Jason we're talking about with the contacts so I have no doubt this is the case, we can assume that a large part of the LS was tied into the multiplayer aspect of the game. Because that's what Anthem was. Thank you for the copy and paste  I couldn't read the article on the site unfortunately Forgive me for not remembering (or caring to look up) the exact word choice with that particular article...but given he basically torpedoed his own argument in the next sentence I always found the inclusion of that claim to be a little...sus. Though yes that is one potential outcome of a DA LS game. I am so glad they have confirmed this (finally) because their whole deal about the live service aspect in the first place made me very skeptical about the quality of DA4. At the same time I also can't help but feel this is all deflection from the Anthem announcement yesterday. This is the second time you have made this point and it sounds like a heck of a deflection. Is it marketing spin? Yes, obviously...if there is any validity to this leak then it certainly does count and it was probably at least semi official...a trial baloon if you would. But at the end of the day this could be as much of an indication that they have learned from Anthem and decided to not try doing that again and sticking with more of what they know. Of course the possibility exists as I mentioned of a misintreptation of media, wires crossed, etc, so I will wait patiently for the actual announcement from BioWare. |
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Post by river82 on Feb 26, 2021 4:23:12 GMT
Forgive me for not remembering (or caring to look up) the exact word choice with that particular article...but given he basically torpedoed his own argument in the next sentence I always found the inclusion of that claim to be a little...sus. Firstly he didn't torpedo anything in the next sentence. We can discuss it if you want. Secondly I didn't blame you for anything. I showed why an overlooked part of the article should clarify your thoughts on the matter
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Post by The Elder King on Feb 26, 2021 4:53:20 GMT
I wouldn’t expect a direct announcement from BioWare, given that they never stated the game would be a live service game like Anthem, but only that previous games they made could be considered live service games.
At best, the trailers and footage that we might see this year might give us a better impression of the kind of game they’re developing.
If the article isn’t right, I guess they could release a statement to deny the claims in it, so maybe not saying anything could be considered a confirmation.
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Post by river82 on Feb 26, 2021 5:07:29 GMT
I wouldn’t expect a direct announcement from BioWare, given that they never stated the game would be a live service game like Anthem, but only that previous games they made could be considered live service games. At best, the trailers and footage that we might see this year might give us a better impression of the kind of game they’re developing. If the article isn’t right, I guess they could release a statement to deny the claims in it, so maybe not saying anything could be considered a confirmation. Don't expect that denial any time soon. There hasn't been an instance yet where Jason has quoted a source and it was actually wrong, and the times he's right continues to grow.
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Post by The Elder King on Feb 26, 2021 5:41:09 GMT
I wouldn’t expect a direct announcement from BioWare, given that they never stated the game would be a live service game like Anthem, but only that previous games they made could be considered live service games. At best, the trailers and footage that we might see this year might give us a better impression of the kind of game they’re developing. If the article isn’t right, I guess they could release a statement to deny the claims in it, so maybe not saying anything could be considered a confirmation. Don't expect that denial any time soon. There hasn't been an instance yet where Jason has quoted a source and it was actually wrong, and the times he's right continues to grow. I never said I expect BioWare to deny the claims. I saw some posts in regards of this topic and gave my opinion about this.
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 26, 2021 5:55:51 GMT
Previously, it was planned as a service game. If the author of this has understood their sources correctly then it would seem that our fears about what "live service" meant were justified. Casey Hudson kept insisting that it merely meant the game could continue on after the main story had been completed but this article confirms it was about multi-player. Anyway, I'm hoping that this story is true and EA don't end up backtracking further down the line. Note that it says the re-boot in 2017 which pushed the game back in development was allegedly totally so they could make it something other than a single player game as insisted upon by EA. If what they say about Anthem is also true then it would seem it is all hands on deck now to get Dragon Age completed.  There is too much confusion for what a "live service" is. I fully expect there to be the chance there is going to be something that might be considered live service just to keep content coming to the game to keep people happy. It just won't be multiplayer, for if you look at the newer Assassin's Creed games mostly Odyssey and Valhalla. To me both of those games would quality as a live service because they kept adding content to the game. They took it the farthest with Valhalla where they now have monthly paid armor sets (pretty much like Anthem) while also giving "free" DLC and paid DLC. BioWare has always stated that under their understanding is that even Dragon Age: Origins qualified under that EA requirement since they had that Flash game same with Dragon Age 2 where it was a Facebook game instead. So using that kind of understanding Mass Effect Archives would be a qualifier. So I think a lot of the celebrating that there is from this comment from people who we don't know their standing in making decisions might be too early. Edit: I cannot find it, but I think Casey Hudson also said something about they are still working on Single Player games when he went back to BioWare (or at the very least that is how I took his comment). So this isn't a surprise to me.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 26, 2021 7:02:17 GMT
Forgive me for not remembering (or caring to look up) the exact word choice with that particular article...but given he basically torpedoed his own argument in the next sentence I always found the inclusion of that claim to be a little...sus. Firstly he didn't torpedo anything in the next sentence. We can discuss it if you want. Secondly I didn't blame you for anything. I showed why an overlooked part of the article should clarify your thoughts on the matter Well I'm not that interested in discussing this issue in depth.... However I will say that its not an overlooked part of the article...its brought up by every critic, skeptic, troll, or just anyone with any sort of a conern on this area towards the next DA game. Its come up before and it has been discussed various times including when that particular article dropped. Its the kind of click bait attention grabbing ploy that is pretty typical from anyone in media these days be they on Youtube or working for...bloomberg now? (of all places). Which forgive my overall skepticism over the placement of the line which, not that far after in that same article, he did say that his conversations with BioWare management assured him no such thing would take place. But yet....everyone gravitated towards 'Anthem with Dragons'. The Horror. Though I suppose in perfect fairness this article indicates there *might* be some validitity to those initial concerns...though given my gut feeling I kind of doubt it. I wouldn’t expect a direct announcement from BioWare, given that they never stated the game would be a live service game like Anthem, but only that previous games they made could be considered live service games. At best, the trailers and footage that we might see this year might give us a better impression of the kind of game they’re developing. If the article isn’t right, I guess they could release a statement to deny the claims in it, so maybe not saying anything could be considered a confirmation. We'll get an 'official announcement' and conformation on this as soon as they market the game. I really do not think they will comment on the article one way or another but when they market it we will know whether or not it will have MP or what its LS commponents will be. Of course I do half wonder if the game never had Multiplayer at all in it and these people are just once again...doing their media thing. If the author of this has understood their sources correctly then it would seem that our fears about what "live service" meant were justified. Casey Hudson kept insisting that it merely meant the game could continue on after the main story had been completed but this article confirms it was about multi-player. Anyway, I'm hoping that this story is true and EA don't end up backtracking further down the line. Note that it says the re-boot in 2017 which pushed the game back in development was allegedly totally so they could make it something other than a single player game as insisted upon by EA. If what they say about Anthem is also true then it would seem it is all hands on deck now to get Dragon Age completed. I fully expect there to be the chance there is going to be something that might be considered live service just to keep content coming to the game to keep people happy. It just won't be multiplayer, for if you look at the newer Assassin's Creed games mostly Odyssey and Valhalla. To me both of those games would quality as a live service because they kept adding content to the game. They took it the farthest with Valhalla where they now have monthly paid armor sets (pretty much like Anthem) while also giving "free" DLC and paid DLC. BioWare has always stated that under their understanding is that even Dragon Age: Origins qualified under that EA requirement since they had that Flash game same with Dragon Age 2 where it was a Facebook game instead. So using that kind of understanding Mass Effect Archives would be a qualifier. So I think a lot of the celebrating that there is from this comment from people who we don't know their standing in making decisions might be too early. Edit: I cannot find it, but I think Casey Hudson also said something about they are still working on Single Player games when he went back to BioWare (or at the very least that is how I took his comment). So this isn't a surprise to me. Can we get any relief?
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Post by saandrig on Feb 26, 2021 7:11:36 GMT
Late to the party, as usual, but I will just leave this here:
Yippeefuckingkiyay🎉🎊
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Post by Adia on Feb 26, 2021 7:14:41 GMT
Title should be:
Bioware doesn't know what game they are making. Again.
Both MP and SP require vastly different resources and vastly different game philosophies. At best this means the game is not coming out until late 2023. At worst, we're going to get another Sims 4; a half baked game that is constrained by it's MP past. This is the sort of decision they needed to make in 2018. Not mere months ago.
If you're going to completely reboot a game twice, something clearly doesn't work, and perhaps it's time to give up on it. They've been working on DA4 since 2015 and it's still in development hell. What the fuck? No wonder why they've been so vague about it. I'd be pretty fucking vague too if I knew I was making a game my audience is going to hate.
Man, I was so hyped for DA4. But clearly they still have development issues going on. And I'm sorry for being Negative Nancy, but I don't consider this good news. I don't. A game-as-service Dragon Age 4, or a previously multiplayer Andromeda level catastrophe. I'm not sure which is worse for Dragon Age.
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Post by river82 on Feb 26, 2021 7:16:26 GMT
not that far after in that same article, he did say that his conversations with BioWare management assured him no such thing would take place. Quote where the article said this please, because as far as I can tell you're making things up.
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Post by river82 on Feb 26, 2021 7:27:54 GMT
Title should be: Bioware doesn't know what game they are making. Again.Both MP and SP require vastly different resources and vastly different game philosophies. At best this means the game is not coming out until late 2023. At worst, we're going to get another Sims 4; a half baked game that is constrained by it's MP past. This is the sort of decision they needed to make in 2018. Not mere months ago. If you're going to completely reboot a game twice, something clearly doesn't work, and perhaps it's time to give up on it. They've been working on DA4 since 2015 and it's still in development hell. What the fuck? No wonder why they've been so vague about it. I'd be pretty fucking vague too if I knew I was making a game my audience is going to hate. Man, I was so hyped for DA4. But clearly they still have development issues going on. And I'm sorry for being Negative Nancy, but I don't consider this good news. I don't. A game-as-service Dragon Age 4, or a previously multiplayer Andromeda level catastrophe. I'm not sure which is worse for Dragon Age. I thought the Sims 4 irritated people because they took stuff that was in Sim3 and sold those features to the public again as part of a DLC. So it cost like ... 500 dollars to buy the whole game or something?
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Post by witchcocktor on Feb 26, 2021 7:34:02 GMT
The fact that a MP Dragon Age 4 was ever on the table and anyone supported that idea is worrisome on it's own. But I guess this news is... reassuring? Outside of it feeling like DA4 has been in development hell and there has been no clear vision for what DA4 actually is.
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Post by Adia on Feb 26, 2021 7:48:30 GMT
Title should be: Bioware doesn't know what game they are making. Again.Both MP and SP require vastly different resources and vastly different game philosophies. At best this means the game is not coming out until late 2023. At worst, we're going to get another Sims 4; a half baked game that is constrained by it's MP past. This is the sort of decision they needed to make in 2018. Not mere months ago. If you're going to completely reboot a game twice, something clearly doesn't work, and perhaps it's time to give up on it. They've been working on DA4 since 2015 and it's still in development hell. What the fuck? No wonder why they've been so vague about it. I'd be pretty fucking vague too if I knew I was making a game my audience is going to hate. Man, I was so hyped for DA4. But clearly they still have development issues going on. And I'm sorry for being Negative Nancy, but I don't consider this good news. I don't. A game-as-service Dragon Age 4, or a previously multiplayer Andromeda level catastrophe. I'm not sure which is worse for Dragon Age. I thought the Sims 4 irritated people because they took stuff that was in Sim3 and sold those features to the public again as part of a DLC. So it cost like ... 500 dollars to buy the whole game or something? It irritated people because it lacked plenty of previously base game features: pools, toddlers, terrain tools, dynamic open world etc. And make no mistake, those features were missing because The Sims 4 was first imagined as a multiplayer. Most of those features were later patched in after more than 3 years. So even if Dragon Age 4 is single player, it can still be treated like a GaaS, like TS4 does. Imagine waiting 2 years in order to get the rogue class, while Bioware keeps releasing expansions. That's how bad it can get.
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Post by Fredward on Feb 26, 2021 7:52:00 GMT
I'm mostly curious about whether there's any kind of broader lesson taken from this whole fiasco, and if there is what kind. Like do they blame management? Do they blame the team's comparative inexperience? Do they blame the MMO part? Do they blame the MMO part coupled with a previously non-existent IP? The competition? The rollout? Basically, I want them to learn very particular lessons entirely in line with making the kind of games I want them to make.
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Post by spacev3gan on Feb 26, 2021 8:13:18 GMT
No multiplayer? I will pass it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 26, 2021 8:52:42 GMT
There is too much confusion for what a "live service" is. I fully expect there to be the chance there is going to be something that might be considered live service just to keep content coming to the game to keep people happy. It just won't be multiplayer, for if you look at the newer Assassin's Creed games mostly Odyssey and Valhalla. To me both of those games would quality as a live service because they kept adding content to the game. They took it the farthest with Valhalla where they now have monthly paid armor sets (pretty much like Anthem) while also giving "free" DLC and paid DLC. You misunderstood my comment. I fully understand that "live service" can just mean they will continue to release DLC after release of the main game. I also acknowledge that they did this with both DAO and DA2 which were exclusively single player games. However, what people like myself were concerned about was the studio talking about live service in connection with Dragon Age when they had not done so before. This was at the same time as a major multi-player game was being promoted and on the back of both ME3 and DAI where there was a multi-player element introduced to what had previously been a single player game. So it was reasonable to be concerned that "live service" might have implications for DA4 going forward. Yet people kept reassuring us with what you have just said about what live service means, including Casey Hudson. The next Dragon Age, which doesn’t yet have an official title or release date, had previously been designed with a heavy multiplayer component, said the people, who asked not to be named because they were not authorized to speak to the press. In recent months, it has transformed into a single-player-only game after EA was stung by a recent multiplayer flop. So what I am saying, particularly in view of the bolded section here, is that we were right to be concerned and it was changed in 2017 from a predominantly single player game to one with a strong emphasis on multi-player elements, with a consequent delay in production as a result.
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Post by Grog Muffins on Feb 26, 2021 9:10:41 GMT
Y'know, what baffles me is that EA made this decision now, they waited until Fallen Order proved what so many single player games (Horizon: Zero Dawn, God of War, Hellblade etc) had been proving for many years already.  I guess they needed their own pockets and people to feel the truth in order to believe it. Wonder if this means we'll have a proper power wheel again, instead of being forced to forget a power when we want to use a new one? I hope this will be the case but I do wonder if that decision was not only due to the MP feature but also due to the limitations of console controllers. I haven't played DAO or DA2 with a controller so I don't know how easy or clunky it was to use them. The numbers notwithstanding, I've always felt that any plan to include MP impacts the overall design of SP combat. That is, imho, the greater cost. And speaking of cost - imagine the amount of time and money wasted on this whole process. AFAIK, Joplin was progressing nicely only to be torn asunder and rebooted, and now rebooted again. These constant changes are extremely costly, both in $ and time to market. Yep. Many people talk about the impact that ME3's MP had on the SP being mostly initially requiring you to play it in order to get the best ending but its actual impact was greater than that, it was the fact that EMS existed at all. In ME3 you don't get the ending based on your decisions throughout the entire trilogy but based on numbers you gather only in the 3rd game. Sure, they tried fooling players that the decisions from previous games mattered (like Wrex vs Wreav, if Legion was activated in ME2 etc) but all that really did was give you bigger or smaller numbers to fill up the EMS bar. You got the bar to be green? Great, here's your good ending. You needed 50 more points? Sucks for you, you get the bad ending. The way the SP story and reward system worked was made to accommodate the MP in ME3. DAIMP was better in this but the gameplay for that one was overall kinda bad. |
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Post by therevanchist25 on Feb 26, 2021 9:31:44 GMT
No multiplayer? I will pass it. So you passed on KOTOR? Jade Empire? ME1? ME2? Dragon Age Origins? Dragon Age 2? Baulder's Gate? If your passing because "No Multiplayer" Then are you even a Bioware fan? Honest and serious question. Why are you even here if you only care about multiplayer games?
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Post by therevanchist25 on Feb 26, 2021 9:34:49 GMT
So in response to this actual revelation...I have no idea how to even feel about it, tbh. If I knew for sure the story team didn't have their head up their ass, I would say it's positive news. But as it stands now? I just can't feel good about Dragon Age anymore. I'm just utterly done with their creative decisions.
If Anthem had to die to prevent live-service bullshit, Anthem deserves the Medal of Honor for its sacrifice in the War on Greed.
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helios969
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
helios969
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Post by helios969 on Feb 26, 2021 9:53:25 GMT
Now they just need to deliver a top tier RPG acclaimed by the industry and players alike. No easy feat. DA4 might dictate Bioware's existence once and for all.
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I couldn't read the article on the site unfortunately 
I guess they needed their own pockets and people to feel the truth in order to believe it.
