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Post by AnDromedary on Oct 22, 2021 14:43:27 GMT
Well, Bioware developers (and some ex) decided to say the following about the whole ME3 ending and how it still haunts them to this day talking about the ending, they bring good points but I better let you wtch the video: Apart from that (I am all the way through the video now, sorry for double posting), very nice interviews and some (not all) new perspectives. The fact that the devs he interviews themselves seem to have widely different opinions on the ending itself and the extended cut just goes to show how complicated the issue is. I also think when he says fairly early on that the main problem was that the cutscenes were so similar, that massively underrepresetns the range of issues people had with the endings (with all sorts of different people having a different subset of issues). For me for example, the color coding and the similar cutscenes weren't an issues at all. As a final point, that first story board they show in the middle of the vid already sounds a lot better to me than the actual ending, simply because the reaper's motivation for the cycles in that version is that they themselves at least feel like they can no longer evolve and therefore "use" the cycles as a testbed for possible ways of evolution in order to find a way to improve themselves. I find that explanation for the reaper's motivations quite beautiful. It certainly makes way more sense in the grand scheme than the rehashed AI vs. organics trope that was used in the end. While I am still quite upset that they apparently saw control and some sort of power grab as paragon, the synthesis ending makes way more sense in that context as well. Ah well, it's all water under the bridge at this point but still, some interesting perspectives there. EDIT: BTW: I was around at old old BSN in 2012 and I thought the cupcake thing was very very funny (I wasn't personally involved in it though). Hearing these guys though, I can see how it was upsetting from their perspective. To me (and a lot of us back then), packaging our snark in cupcakes did seem like a very good natured form of protest, kind of a sweet little take on the old letter writing campaigns Star Trek and Babylon 5 fans used to do back in the day. And frankly, from what they are telling, it looks like it had more of an impact than any online petition, forum outrage or whatever online thing would have had. When they talk about death threats and all that stuff, I always shake my head though, the internet is just a truly wonderful and absolutely awful place at the same time.
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Post by lordmoral on Oct 22, 2021 14:52:33 GMT
Ok, calling ending-TIM "Elon Husk" was a good one. Now we need to get TIM an alleged indestructible windshield developed by Cerberus so that he throws Kai Leng and the screen gets shattered and Leng retreats until we have to fight him at the next set piece.
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Post by lordmoral on Oct 22, 2021 15:07:31 GMT
As a final point, that first story board they show in the middle of the vid already sounds a lot better to me than the actual ending, simply because the reaper's motivation for the cycles in that version is that they themselves at least feel like they can no longer evolve and therefore "use" the cycles as a testbed for possible ways of evolution in order to find a way to improve themselves. I find that explanation for the reaper's motivations quite beautiful. It certainly makes way more sense in the grand scheme than the rehashed AI vs. organics trope that was used in the end. While I am still quite upset that they apparent saw control and some sort of power grab as paragon, the synthesis ending makes way more sense in that context as well. Had they gone with that and properly developed the game the reaction to the endings would have been so much calmer, I don't support Synthesis as the Reapers have only themselves to blame and the genius said: "We need to make everyone equal to solve the lack of genetic issue." But Bioware/EA rush and crunching employees (as well developing the game ending separate from the rest) and mixed with player reactions plus the journalists throwing the fuel to the fires it all adds to that big mess.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 22, 2021 16:23:21 GMT
You don't say, I have just gotten Ashley Williams twisting her neck like she and Kaidan do in ME1 elevators while Shepard was giving his first speech, it seems every new playthrough creates new bugs. Obvious and intentional Exorcist reference. You can't hold that against them.
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Post by AnDromedary on Oct 22, 2021 16:51:35 GMT
You don't say, I have just gotten Ashley Williams twisting her neck like she and Kaidan do in ME1 elevators while Shepard was giving his first speech, it seems every new playthrough creates new bugs. Obvious and intentional Exorcist reference. You can't hold that against them. Also, just classic Mass Effect.
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Post by lordmoral on Oct 22, 2021 17:03:55 GMT
You don't say, I have just gotten Ashley Williams twisting her neck like she and Kaidan do in ME1 elevators while Shepard was giving his first speech, it seems every new playthrough creates new bugs. Obvious and intentional Exorcist reference. You can't hold that against them. Even a Moderator in the Answers HQ found that face palm worthy, here us the link to the video, the first time she did that I took it as getting flexed during Shepard speech, then she did it again and I was like, "great another bug:"
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Post by lordmoral on Oct 22, 2021 17:05:05 GMT
Obvious and intentional Exorcist reference. You can't hold that against them. Also, just classic Mass Effect. Oh that is still there, it is very pronounced in the ME3 LE.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on Oct 23, 2021 3:32:35 GMT
As a final point, that first story board they show in the middle of the vid already sounds a lot better to me than the actual ending, simply because the reaper's motivation for the cycles in that version is that they themselves at least feel like they can no longer evolve and therefore "use" the cycles as a testbed for possible ways of evolution in order to find a way to improve themselves. I find that explanation for the reaper's motivations quite beautiful. It certainly makes way more sense in the grand scheme than the rehashed AI vs. organics trope that was used in the end. While I am still quite upset that they apparent saw control and some sort of power grab as paragon, the synthesis ending makes way more sense in that context as well. Had they gone with that and properly developed the game the reaction to the endings would have been so much calmer, I don't support Synthesis as the Reapers have only themselves to blame and the genius said: "We need to make everyone equal to solve the lack of genetic issue." But Bioware/EA rush and crunching employees (as well developing the game ending separate from the rest) and mixed with player reactions plus the journalists throwing the fuel to the fires it all adds to that big mess. I think the base idea would have gone over better but his endings had a real eff those renegade players vibe so that would have pissed off a lot of people. Assuming they changed the endings a bit so they were equitable while still feeling substantively different I think it would have gone over fairly well.
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Post by lordmoral on Oct 23, 2021 11:32:16 GMT
Had they gone with that and properly developed the game the reaction to the endings would have been so much calmer, I don't support Synthesis as the Reapers have only themselves to blame and the genius said: "We need to make everyone equal to solve the lack of genetic issue." But Bioware/EA rush and crunching employees (as well developing the game ending separate from the rest) and mixed with player reactions plus the journalists throwing the fuel to the fires it all adds to that big mess. I think the base idea would have gone over better but his endings had a real eff those renegade players vibe so that would have pissed off a lot of people. Assuming they changed the endings a bit so they were equitable while still feeling substantively different I think it would have gone over fairly well. Bingo.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 23, 2021 12:16:08 GMT
I don't know. It seems just as bad as the ones we got, to me.
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Post by lordmoral on Oct 23, 2021 12:36:41 GMT
I don't know. It seems just as bad as the ones we got, to me. True, the game was horribly rushed but the idea of the Reaper Queen was awesome.
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N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
Posts: 2,887 Likes: 3,546
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Post by ahglock on Oct 23, 2021 15:01:41 GMT
I don't know. It seems just as bad as the ones we got, to me. It wouldn't have worked for me, but assuming people were articulating their complaints correctly it seems like it would have gone over much better than the original.
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Post by lordmoral on Oct 23, 2021 15:26:34 GMT
So I got a surprising response to a comment chain in the cited video and if what he says is true then I think I am truly done with Bioware. He hasn't agreed to allow me to cite him so I won't mention his YT username at all. Do not go sending death threats, the media and the company is likely hoping they get them to go after us (and if you haven't been seeing what the US Justice Depart will do to parents who are protesting CRT on an apparent behalf of the teachers Unions then trust me that this isn't a free society anymore), but if companies like: Bethesda, CD Projekt Red and more are worthy of constructive negative criticism then so is Bioware: "No, I'm not in charge of the tools we use, so I only saw correspondence as a third wheel, and the BioWare reps stopped appearing in our chats when the project was closed at around July this year. But some of the tool developers still talk to them privately. So I did get to see the shock on their "face" when they realized 3-hit melees were accidentally missing in Legendary Edition Mass Effect 3. A feature that will never be added back at least on consoles. It was clear that the reason he couldn't push to get it fixed is because their QA department only had room to address "critical" bugs, i.e. actual game crashes and other serious problems. Unfortunately an ugly save glitch is still stuck in the PlayStation ports where random plot flags and values are truncated in rare instances of saving. That will never be fixed. The initial correspondence was allegedly by accident, because someone said they worked with modders but we had not heard a word. We contacted them because of that, and they owned up to it by actually collaborating directly after that point. We now have details like all their entire "StoryManager" plot table, which means we know what every single plot flag in the trilogy means, which means we have much more clarity about plot-branching issues and how to fix them, and the ability to create story-driven mods that depend on official choices you make in the core game. But the bottom line is: The reason we are even able to release mods today for Legendary Edition is because the toolset developers worked directly with BioWare to know how the game works under the hood. If BioWare hadn't done that, there wouldn't even be a sprawling mod community for Legendary Edition in 2021." dazk , Cyberstrike , SirSourpuss , ahglock , RedCaesar97 , talyn82 , AngryFrozenWater Edit: if I tagged you it isn't that I consider you of any wrongdoing, it is just that I suspect you wanted to read this and discuss it. Bioware can claim it makes art and not just products for sale but we have wallets and regardless of our salaries they aren't infinite, and we have to be picky on how we spend our money.
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XBL Gamertag: cyberstrike nTo
PSN: cyberstrike-nTo
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Post by Cyberstrike on Oct 23, 2021 16:14:02 GMT
So I got a surprising response to a comment chain in the cited video and if what he says is true then I think I am truly done with Bioware. He hasn't agreed to allow me to cite him so I won't mention his YT username at all. Do not go sending death threats, the media and the company is likely hoping they get them to go after us (and if you haven't been seeing what the US Justice Depart will do to parents who are protesting CRT on an apparent behalf of the teachers Unions then trust me that this isn't a free society anymore), but if companies like: Bethesda, CD Projekt Red and more are worthy of constructive negative criticism then so is Bioware: "No, I'm not in charge of the tools we use, so I only saw correspondence as a third wheel, and the BioWare reps stopped appearing in our chats when the project was closed at around July this year. But some of the tool developers still talk to them privately. So I did get to see the shock on their "face" when they realized 3-hit melees were accidentally missing in Legendary Edition Mass Effect 3. A feature that will never be added back at least on consoles. It was clear that the reason he couldn't push to get it fixed is because their QA department only had room to address "critical" bugs, i.e. actual game crashes and other serious problems. Unfortunately an ugly save glitch is still stuck in the PlayStation ports where random plot flags and values are truncated in rare instances of saving. That will never be fixed. The initial correspondence was allegedly by accident, because someone said they worked with modders but we had not heard a word. We contacted them because of that, and they owned up to it by actually collaborating directly after that point. We now have details like all their entire "StoryManager" plot table, which means we know what every single plot flag in the trilogy means, which means we have much more clarity about plot-branching issues and how to fix them, and the ability to create story-driven mods that depend on official choices you make in the core game. But the bottom line is: The reason we are even able to release mods today for Legendary Edition is because the toolset developers worked directly with BioWare to know how the game works under the hood. If BioWare hadn't done that, there wouldn't even be a sprawling mod community for Legendary Edition in 2021." dazk , Cyberstrike , SirSourpuss , ahglock , RedCaesar97 , talyn82 , AngryFrozenWater
Why did you tag me?
I've never sent a death threat to anyone, I abhor that. I don't do that, now when I don't like someone I make it known that I don't like that person, but saying some one sucks is a LOT different than wishing them dead, and I have actually reported death threats to mods and admins on other boards years ago and I would do the same here. Also I never comment or read comments on YouTube that site is extremely toxic and there is nothing to be gained for me and risking my mental health and wasting my time to discuss in a YT comment thread. There are very few video game YouTubers I watch and even fewer that I trust and I tend to avoid most YT video game videos like the damn plague.
I'm a proud console gamer and only play Skyrim and Fallout 4 with mods on my XB1 and PS4 and I don't play on PC and never will. So honestly I don't care about PC player made mods one way or the other.
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Post by lordmoral on Oct 23, 2021 16:29:18 GMT
I've never sent a death threat to anyone This isn't targeting anyone placing them under those disgusting people, it was just to share with all of you of a message I ran into from an apparent third party observer. I am sorry if you though that I was calling the users listed as those but it is not like that, it is just a message that I think fits very well in this thread.
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Sir Nose D'VoidOfFunk
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Post by AngryFrozenWater on Oct 23, 2021 18:58:31 GMT
... Edit: if I tagged you it isn't that I consider you of any wrongdoing, it is just that I suspect you wanted to read this and discuss it. Bioware can claim it makes art and not just products for sale but we have wallets and regardless of our salaries they aren't infinite, and we have to be picky on how we spend our money. One of the main problems I saw with the community throughout the years is that there are roughly three camps: 1) The gamers, who may have finished the game once or didn't reach the end. 2) The fans, who are passionate about the games and saw them for what they were. 3) The fans, who defended the game no matter what. The above is important, because when group #2 wrote about what they saw wrong with the game, then BW pushed back, and obviously the apologists (group #3) sided with BW, by calling the criticism "hate". BW followed suit by declaring the old BSN "toxic" and hired aggressive moderators to silence the opposition. That childish behavior of Bioware & the Apologists (sounds like a bad band) caused EA to shut down the original BSN. Note that group #1 is the biggest one. They will rarely become vocal. They just like the game or not. They determine the profit of the next game by just buying it or not. That is why PR is crucial to a developer. They want to reach that group. Forums are not essential to that group. And social media are easier to manipulate. By the way, not only did Mass Effect play a role in this, so did Dragon Age 2. All this was extremely odd, because the initial forums (the BW forums, the predecessor of the original BSN) were extremely tolerant. Discussions were fair to criticism and fun ruled the day. Even the Two Doctors would take part in the discussions. I think when these two left, there was a power vacuum within the company and slowly management became the mess of survival of the fittest, who ruled the company with fear. If you look at how the behavior of BW changed over the years then Jason Schreier's article was no surprise. I claim that the apologists were and are still the main problem that BW faces, because it looks like BW hasn't changed their erratic behavior at all. About BW willing to fix only the critical errors: That is not something new for ME/DA. They do not own up to anything that may have been wrong with their products. History proves it. So, my take on your post? What did you expect of BW? That they changed their ways overnight? That is highly unlikely. Great post. Thank you. Edit: Whatever you do, please don't leave the forums. We need people like you. You are awesome.
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Post by lordmoral on Oct 23, 2021 20:01:33 GMT
... Edit: if I tagged you it isn't that I consider you of any wrongdoing, it is just that I suspect you wanted to read this and discuss it. Bioware can claim it makes art and not just products for sale but we have wallets and regardless of our salaries they aren't infinite, and we have to be picky on how we spend our money. One of the main problems I saw with the community throughout the years is that there are roughly three camps: 1) The gamers, who may have finished the game once or didn't reach the end. 2) The fans, who are passionate about the games and saw them for what they were. 3) The fans, who defended the game no matter what. The above is important, because when group #2 wrote about what they saw wrong with the game, then BW pushed back, and obviously the apologists (group #3) sided with BW, by calling the criticism "hate". BW followed suit by declaring the old BSN "toxic" and hired aggressive moderators to silence the opposition. That childish behavior of Bioware & the Apologists (sounds like a bad band) caused EA to shut down the original BSN. Note that group #1 is the biggest one. They will rarely become vocal. They just like the game or not. They determine the profit of the next game by just buying it or not. That is why PR is crucial to a developer. They want to reach that group. Forums are not essential to that group. And social media are easier to manipulate. By the way, not only did Mass Effect play a role in this, so did Dragon Age 2. All this was extremely odd, because the initial forums (the BW forums, the predecessor of the original BSN) were extremely tolerant. Discussions were fair to criticism and fun ruled the day. Even the Two Doctors would take part in the discussions. I think when these two left, there was a power vacuum within the company and slowly management became the mess of survival of the fittest, who ruled the company with fear. If you look at how the behavior of BW changed over the years then Jason Schreier's article was no surprise. I claim that the apologists were and are still the main problem that BW faces, because it looks like BW hasn't changed their erratic behavior at all. About BW willing to fix only the critical errors: That is not something new for ME/DA. They do not own up to anything that may have been wrong with their products. History proves it. So, my take on your post? What did you expect of BW? That they changed their ways overnight? That is highly unlikely. Great post. Thank you. Edit: Whatever you do, please don't leave the forums. We need people like you. You are awesome. Thanks for what you said at the end, I am not planning on leaving but I am also frustrated how this Legendary Edition turned out and that behavior tells me volumes of what will likely be the reception to DA4 and ME Next, a big mess from a group of proud people who never see themselves at fault and who only listen to the group they like. As time goes on more players are seeing the bugs in this game and when that goes up well, they will go into turtle mode.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 23, 2021 20:26:12 GMT
This breakdown of the fan groups is why you never just take a source from one side, because oh boy is it biased.
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Post by lordmoral on Oct 23, 2021 21:33:51 GMT
This breakdown of the fan groups is why you never just take a source from one side, because oh boy is it biased. Agree, which is why you write unverified claims (and even verified ones) as: "this person alleges x and that other person says y," it is why I advise against any rash action and recommend simply to gather more information.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
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To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Oct 24, 2021 12:19:43 GMT
This breakdown of the fan groups is why you never just take a source from one side, because oh boy is it biased. Agree, which is why you write unverified claims (and even verified ones) as: "this person alleges x and that other person says y," it is why I advise against any rash action and recommend simply to gather more information.Careful sometimes you can go for too much information...
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Post by lordmoral on Oct 24, 2021 13:09:45 GMT
Agree, which is why you write unverified claims (and even verified ones) as: "this person alleges x and that other person says y," it is why I advise against any rash action and recommend simply to gather more information.Careful sometimes you can go for too much information... Man that is how I feel like sometimes, my head is so full and empty at the same time.
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At this rate all future Bioware games will be half done and modders need to rescue it for free.
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Post by lordmoral on Oct 24, 2021 19:23:11 GMT
I found a modder who has agreed to let me cite him but states that he wants to remain anonymous, I will see what else comes up from all this that has been stirred up (this isn't the same modder as the one cited above): "Afterwards, Bioware called the toolset developers into a private server and had them sign NDA contracts...for some reason. There was an exchange of information, toolset code (etc.) and Bioware was also given an extensive list of bugs that should be fixed in the remaster. The majority of that list was ignored. Some modders also made pleas to have certain major bugs fixed, but it fell on deaf ears.
The LE isn't worth fixing, and a lot of its issues cannot be resolved. The missing 3-melee chain is the least of its problems. Missing shadows, and a vast array of broken lighting, textures, cubemaps, as well as things like AI bugs, story bugs, missing pieces of content (etc.) are all problems that will remain unresolved because modding tools can't handle that."
Note: there is a thread that was started by a MOD which discusses the topic of the video that started this chain and I will be sharing things there as well, so forgive the double posts.
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Spectr61
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Origin: Spectr61
Posts: 823 Likes: 1,282
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Post by Spectr61 on Oct 25, 2021 8:59:47 GMT
Lord is spot on.
Delusion is believing the same people/culture that led to Biower’s debacles in the past decade or so are going to turn the ship around.
Especially since they don’t even acknowledge the fact that there were debacle(s), much less assign accountability, or, -gasp-, corrective measures.
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At this rate all future Bioware games will be half done and modders need to rescue it for free.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by lordmoral on Oct 25, 2021 13:28:08 GMT
Lord is spot on. Delusion is believing the same people/culture that led to Biower’s debacles in the past decade or so are going to turn the ship around. Especially since they don’t even acknowledge the fact that there were debacle(s), much less assign accountability, or, -gasp-, corrective measures. Why are we tolerating Bioware apperantly irresponsible behavior, what does Bioware have that many gaming sites won't even cover these topics when other companies don't get the same pass?
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Post by AnDromedary on Oct 25, 2021 16:53:05 GMT
Lord is spot on. Delusion is believing the same people/culture that led to Biower’s debacles in the past decade or so are going to turn the ship around. Especially since they don’t even acknowledge the fact that there were debacle(s), much less assign accountability, or, -gasp-, corrective measures. Why are we tolerating Bioware apperantly irresponsible behavior, what does Bioware have that many gaming sites won't even cover these topics when other companies don't get the same pass? While I agree that there are many bugs and issues remaining in MELE and that they should be patched, I don't think BW is doing massively worse in this regard than other developers/companies.
99% of the bugs that do remain are minor glitches, which - while annoying - don't really affect the game that much. There seem to be a couple of more pronounced things (like the lighting issue or zoom issue) but I guess they really only affect very very few people.
The sad truth of the matter is, every company has to make a cost/benefit analysis when it comes to these things and most games do not get patched to 100%. While I would definitely wish for more patches and fixes from BioWare, I don't think it's that much worse than others that one could expect a large scale outcry or wide spread media coverage. You may not like it and I get that for the few people who really still have the major issues it's very frustrating but MELE just seems to be within the norm for games these days.
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