Sundance31us
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sundance31us on Jul 25, 2021 19:29:33 GMT
On the other hand I can see Javik doing the following to the remaining Normandy crew; - Eating some (after a generous seasoning of fear).
- Throwing some out the airlock.
- Keeping a few around for trolling purposes (I'm looking at you Liara).
 Javik is a reasonable guy. He's going to eat people who interfered with efforts to defeat the reapers, not the Normandy crew. I bet the dalatrass is tender and juicy. LOL 
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 25, 2021 21:34:57 GMT
That my choice will be acknowledged Acknowledged, doesn't mean matter. So, by your own admission, the promise is already broken. And by that logic non of your choices ever mattered so you are just yelling into the wind about something that never happened and never existed since the first game. Which makes you look even more foolish that you would go to such an extreme after 2 examples of your choices not mattering at all.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 25, 2021 23:01:33 GMT
And by that logic non of your choices ever mattered Yaaaaaaaay! You got it! Gold star!  Then why are you complaining about your choice not mattering in ME3? Complaining about something happening in the 3rd game that has been happening since the first is just stupid.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 25, 2021 23:11:50 GMT
Then why are you complaining about your choice not mattering in ME3? Complaining about something happening in the 3rd game that has been happening since the first is just stupid. Because that's where you'd expect those choices to pay off. It's the Reaper war. It's what we've been doing for two games. And none of it matters, in the end, because you'll always stand in front of that weirdo that can't get this little kid out of his head, that he becomes so obsessed with it, that he manifests as it, to tell you to pick a color. Not to mention that Priority: Earth is the most barebone mission Bioware could ever make, the most anti-climactic wet fart to precede the rotten skunk carcass on the side of the road, that is the Starkid sequence. And if you're saying I'm stupid I ever believed Bioware could do something better, well, I guess you're right. I guess this Bioware couldn't possibly ever deliver anything better than shit. And I am dumb for buying into their lies. |
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 25, 2021 23:35:00 GMT
Then why are you complaining about your choice not mattering in ME3? Complaining about something happening in the 3rd game that has been happening since the first is just stupid. Because that's where you'd expect those choices to pay off. It's the Reaper war. It's what we've been doing for two games. And none of it matters, in the end, because you'll always stand in front of that weirdo that can't get this little kid out of his head, that he becomes so obsessed with it, that he manifests as it, to tell you to pick a color. Not to mention that Priority: Earth is the most barebone mission Bioware could ever make, the most anti-climactic wet fart to precede the rotten skunk carcass on the side of the road, that is the Starkid sequence. And if you're saying I'm stupid I ever believed Bioware could do something better, well, I guess you're right. I guess this Bioware couldn't possibly ever deliver anything better than shit. And I am dumb for buying into their lies. And in Fallout New Vegas you always end up at the Hover Damn and your faction always wins. Yet people will happily rave about how great that game is and how much your choice matters.
No I'm saying your stupid because you are expecting something to happen that didn't happen in the previous 3 games. ME2 was a great example of how much choice would actually have an effect. It literally had the least to account for. You might as well go to a restaurant and order steak 3 times and on the 3rd go complain that the steak isn't vegan.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 25, 2021 23:45:41 GMT
And in Fallout New Vegas you always end up at the Hover Damn and your faction always wins. Yet people will happily rave about how great that game is and how much your choice matters. Did Obsidian make any far reaching statements about how your choices would matter? There were a lot of RP choices and there were many factions you could choose to join and you could influence the outcome, by directly interfering in that conflict, which is why you win. Technically, that's the same thing that happened in ME3. So, in other words, one game did not overstep, while the other did. No I'm saying your stupid because you are expecting something to happen that didn't happen in the previous 3 games. Previous 3 games? Well, I'm sorry, but I didn't play Mass Effect 0. ME2 was a great example of how much choice would actually have an effect. It literally had the least to account for. It's not the third act of the trilogy. You might as well ask "where was Gondor, during the battle of Helm's Deep?" We haven't got to Gondor yet. You might as well go to a restaurant and order steak 3 times and on the 3rd go complain that the steak isn't vegan. Food analogy? Really? At least I put some fucking effort in my analogies. Let's say you're fighting the mob. And you ask a friend for help in fighting the mob. But your fried didn't show up when a gang burnt your house. So you ask your friend "where were you buddy?" And he says, "I didn't even know about this gang, how would I show up? I thought we were fighting the mob!" The Rachni, you told them about the Reapers and they told you that they'd return when you need them in the fight. And what the fuck happens in ME3? Nothing. You get + or - 100 war assets. That's it. And then they're gone. |
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Post by themikefest on Jul 26, 2021 0:32:43 GMT
I'm not sure Mr. I'm-Not-Married-&-Have-A-Shrine-To-Commander-Shepard can really take the high ground on that one. At least he didn't take armor from a dead body to put on display like it's some kind of trophy.
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Sundance31us
N5
Mostly Harmless
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Post by Sundance31us on Jul 26, 2021 0:39:33 GMT
I'm not sure Mr. I'm-Not-Married-&-Have-A-Shrine-To-Commander-Shepard can really take the high ground on that one. At least he didn't take armor from a dead body to put on display like it's some kind of trophy. LOL Win! 
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 26, 2021 1:34:24 GMT
And in Fallout New Vegas you always end up at the Hover Damn and your faction always wins. Yet people will happily rave about how great that game is and how much your choice matters. Did Obsidian make any far reaching statements about how your choices would matter? There were a lot of RP choices and there were many factions you could choose to join and you could influence the outcome, by directly interfering in that conflict, which is why you win. Technically, that's the same thing that happened in ME3. So, in other words, one game did not overstep, while the other did. No I'm saying your stupid because you are expecting something to happen that didn't happen in the previous 3 games. Previous 3 games? Well, I'm sorry, but I didn't play Mass Effect 0. ME2 was a great example of how much choice would actually have an effect. It literally had the least to account for. It's not the third act of the trilogy. You might as well ask "where was Gondor, during the battle of Helm's Deep?" We haven't got to Gondor yet. You might as well go to a restaurant and order steak 3 times and on the 3rd go complain that the steak isn't vegan. Food analogy? Really? At least I put some fucking effort in my analogies. Let's say you're fighting the mob. And you ask a friend for help in fighting the mob. But your fried didn't show up when a gang burnt your house. So you ask your friend "where were you buddy?" And he says, "I didn't even know about this gang, how would I show up? I thought we were fighting the mob!" The Rachni, you told them about the Reapers and they told you that they'd return when you need them in the fight. And what the fuck happens in ME3? Nothing. You get + or - 100 war assets. That's it. And then they're gone. Yes Obsidian did. In fact you can go to any Fallout forum or sub reddit and ask about NV and people will happily tell you how great it is and how your choices really matter. Yea you can choose your faction but every faction wins by default no matter what you do. You literally can not make yourself lose the game. Mass Effect 3 has far more of a lose scenario with the Crucible scorching the entire planet then NV does with any of the factions. They literally created the Yes Man faction that you can not piss off to give a player a way to always win even if you purposefully try to aggravate the NCR, House and Legion factions.
And yet in the 2nd act Pippin and Merry were kidnapped and Gimli, Legolas and Aragon were chasing after them and the Two Towers focuses on that and how they intertwine with Rohan and the Ents and Saurman. Mass Effect 2 doesn't acknowledge any choices outside of the Virmire Survivor who gets like 6 lines and who you made Councilor. If you killed Wrex he gets replaced by angrier Wrex who plays the exact same role as Wrex does with only a visual change and a few lines of dialogue difference. Saving the Queen gets you a small little chat with an Asari on Ilium.
Act 2 is supposed to follow up on Act 1 and yet that doesn't happen in ME2. If Act 2 couldn't pull it off why in the name of everything reasonable would you possibly think that Act 3 could when it has the hardest job of not only ending the trilogy but carrying on the choices made in the previous 2 games that have now splintered so so very much you could make 2 entire games out of all the choices made previously.
If the Rachni can be wiped out as one of the two options then BioWare literally can not make them a major part of the story because they have to be able to account for the Queen being killed. And unlike other characters were you can simply not replace them or replace them with another similar person from their same race the Rachni are tied to if you let the Queen survive or not. In fact your entire Rachni complaint is simply because BioWare is respecting and highlighting player choice. If you killed the Queen you don't talk to the Asari in ME2. And you get a fake replica that you can easily abandon to die. If you let the queen live you talk to the Asari and you have to choose to sacrifice Arlak Company or save her. Compromises HAD to be made to account for as many player choices as possible.
Seriously your entire reply comes across as someone who ordered a ceasar salad at a restaurant, found out it wasn't vegan, gave them a 1 star yelp review because you ordered the wrong food. And then spend the next 9 years endlessly complaining about how terrible the restaurant is because you ordered a non vegan meal and never asked if it was vegan or not.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 26, 2021 1:40:22 GMT
Yes Obsidian did. In fact you can go to any Fallout forum or sub reddit and ask about NV and people will happily tell you how great it is and how your choices really matter. You do make choices that matter. As well as the choice of the faction you will lead to victory. It's just that Obsidian didn't make grand sweeping statements and I don't even know why I'm arguing with you, about the same things again. |
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 26, 2021 12:59:39 GMT
Yes Obsidian did. In fact you can go to any Fallout forum or sub reddit and ask about NV and people will happily tell you how great it is and how your choices really matter. You do make choices that matter. As well as the choice of the faction you will lead to victory. It's just that Obsidian didn't make grand sweeping statements and I don't even know why I'm arguing with you, about the same things again. The choice of what faction you follow not lead because you are never in charge of that faction you are a delivery boy being told what to do. Even the Yes Man faction were you are supposed to be the leader of you are still following the orders of a robot who is telling you what to do so you can win. Leading is a strong term to use for any Fallout protagonist.
You keep trying to harp on that "grand sweeping statements" here but you seem very incapable of actually defending that reasoning other then "I chose to take these statements in the most extreme possible case" Which I'm sure I could find some advertisements for some fast food restaurant were they call their food delicious. Would you then spend 9 years complaining that Burger King called their burgers delicious when they were only adequate at best? Even though Mc Donalds and Wendys already should have given you a base line of what a fast food burger would be like. But because you hear delicious you think it has to takes like Foie Gras or otherwise they are complete lying to you.
For all your ranting about choices not mattering in ME3 the game wraps up the Krogan and genophage arc. It wraps up the Quarian and Geth arc. It acknowledges your Rachni Queen choice. It wraps up the virmire survivor arc by allowing them to join you or sending them of to lead their own team. There are some compromises that are needed to be done to fit everything into it while trying their best to respect the massive multitude of choices without bloating the game to star citizen levels.
And once you blow up Cronos Station all stories in the game have been wrapped up. All lose ends are done. All that is left is the final assault on the Reapers and the attempt to use the Crucible to stop them. And your choices are shown in game with the Fleet that arrives, how well the fight against the Reapers in space is going and the various characters you can chat with at the forward base before the final push to the beam.
It isn't perfect and hindsight provides the ability to see the issues and the long term effects of them. But it does follow up on it's promise. And I have the feeling that your ideal version of the game would cost 5x the budget of all 3 ME games combined and would still be in development from this day.
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Post by mannyray on Jul 26, 2021 17:04:25 GMT
Okay, so the issue of the Control ending to you people is the assumption that AI Shep will become Reaper 2.0, which is an assumption not based on anything in the game and only in ya'll's heads. Got it, glad to know, Control is still my canon because I don't head canon that AI Shep becomes the new reaper 2.0, so I'm all good. Except for the fact that the Reapers came about in the first place and absolutely no evidence is provided that this time will be any different. You count your headcanon as canon. it's evident that the implied outcome is, since Shepard achieved immortality and as a human gaining control of the reapers, the cycle was broken, or rather, could be broken.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 26, 2021 17:14:47 GMT
Except for the fact that the Reapers came about in the first place and absolutely no evidence is provided that this time will be any different. You count your headcanon as canon. it's evident that the implied outcome is, since Shepard achieved immortality and as a human gaining control of the reapers, the cycle was broken, or rather, could be broken. Shepard died. That is canon. What's left is an AI with Shepard's memories. Humans don't control the Reapers. Reapers control the Reapers. THe new AI just decided organics were better as pets.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 26, 2021 17:21:09 GMT
You count your headcanon as canon. it's evident that the implied outcome is, since Shepard achieved immortality and as a human gaining control of the reapers, the cycle was broken, or rather, could be broken. Shepard died. That is canon. What's left is an AI with Shepard's memories. Humans don't control the Reapers. Reapers control the Reapers. THe new AI just decided organics were better as pets. There is no guarantee whatever self-improving algorithm the Starkid has in its programming, doesn't eventually rid itself of the Shepard Morale executable, because it finds it redundant and restrictive to its function. Or what if you're playing happy genocidal Shepard? How does that fix anything? That's a reign of terror.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 26, 2021 17:55:01 GMT
You count your headcanon as canon. it's evident that the implied outcome is, since Shepard achieved immortality and as a human gaining control of the reapers, the cycle was broken, or rather, could be broken. Shepard died. That is canon. What's left is an AI with Shepard's memories. Humans don't control the Reapers. Reapers control the Reapers. THe new AI just decided organics were better as pets. What is consciousness? How could it not be merged together to create a new entity with an entirely different view? What information in game are you basing this conclusion off of?
Or are you just going to post a bunch of blog posts, complain when they aren't addressed and then when they are disappear into the ether for a couple of days before resurfacing like nothing happened?
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 26, 2021 17:55:10 GMT
Shepard died. That is canon. What's left is an AI with Shepard's memories. Humans don't control the Reapers. Reapers control the Reapers. THe new AI just decided organics were better as pets. There is no guarantee whatever self-improving algorithm the Starkid has in its programming, doesn't eventually rid itself of the Shepard Morale executable, because it finds it redundant and restrictive to its function. Or what if you're playing happy genocidal Shepard? How does that fix anything? That's a reign of terror. The latter case is actually acknowledged by the control ending, since the voice over of the EC epilogue is different, depending on your paragon/renegade status. It certainly implies that Shepard/the AI is to some extent imposing his/her views on how society should develop on the galaxy.
The former case would be quite ironic as - if the catalyst's own logic were to hold true - it must happen. Since the AI vs. organics conflict is inevitable according to starkid, and since the personality of the AI apparently doesn't factor into it, even a Shepard AI would eventually devalue organics to the point where they simply don't matter anymore and might as well be wiped out or something. 
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Sundance31us
N5
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Post by Sundance31us on Jul 26, 2021 18:42:52 GMT
For reference:
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 26, 2021 18:46:15 GMT
You keep trying to harp on that "grand sweeping statements" here but you seem very incapable of actually defending that reasoning other then "I chose to take these statements in the most extreme possible case" It's a shame we don't have a clown emoji. |
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Post by Iakus on Jul 26, 2021 19:23:43 GMT
Shepard died. That is canon. What's left is an AI with Shepard's memories. Humans don't control the Reapers. Reapers control the Reapers. THe new AI just decided organics were better as pets. What is consciousness? How could it not be merged together to create a new entity with an entirely different view? What information in game are you basing this conclusion off of?
Or are you just going to post a bunch of blog posts, complain when they aren't addressed and then when they are disappear into the ether for a couple of days before resurfacing like nothing happened? How about the Catalyst's own words? Catalyst: You will die, you will control us but you will lose everything you have.
Shepard: I don’t understand.
Shepard: How can I control the Reapers if I’m dead?
Catalyst: Your corporeal form will be dissolved. But your thoughts and even your memories will continue. You will no longer be organic. Your connection to your kind will be lost. Although you will remain aware of their existence.Shepard is DEAD! That thing controlling the Reapers is not Shepard, but an AI with access to Shepard's memories.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 26, 2021 19:32:21 GMT
What is consciousness? How could it not be merged together to create a new entity with an entirely different view? What information in game are you basing this conclusion off of?
Or are you just going to post a bunch of blog posts, complain when they aren't addressed and then when they are disappear into the ether for a couple of days before resurfacing like nothing happened? How about the Catalyst's own words? Catalyst: You will die, you will control us but you will lose everything you have.
Shepard: I don’t understand.
Shepard: How can I control the Reapers if I’m dead?
Catalyst: Your corporeal form will be dissolved. But your thoughts and even your memories will continue. You will no longer be organic. Your connection to your kind will be lost. Although you will remain aware of their existence.Shepard is DEAD! That thing controlling the Reapers is not Shepard, but an AI with access to Shepard's memories. I disagree that means Shepard is dead. From that description, it sounds like their soul is still alive. Physically they are dead, at least in the sense of their meatbag body is, but what makes them them is still alive. |
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Post by Iakus on Jul 26, 2021 19:37:24 GMT
How about the Catalyst's own words? Catalyst: You will die, you will control us but you will lose everything you have.
Shepard: I don’t understand.
Shepard: How can I control the Reapers if I’m dead?
Catalyst: Your corporeal form will be dissolved. But your thoughts and even your memories will continue. You will no longer be organic. Your connection to your kind will be lost. Although you will remain aware of their existence.Shepard is DEAD! That thing controlling the Reapers is not Shepard, but an AI with access to Shepard's memories. I disagree that means Shepard is dead. From that description, it sounds like their soul is still alive. Physically they are dead, at least in the sense of their meatbag body is, but what makes them them is still alive. The last part disabuses that. Shepard's connection to organics is lost. All that remains are the memories. And conversations with EDI and Legion make it clear that organics and synthetics think very differently.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2021 20:06:46 GMT
How about the Catalyst's own words? Catalyst: You will die, you will control us but you will lose everything you have.
Shepard: I don’t understand.
Shepard: How can I control the Reapers if I’m dead?
Catalyst: Your corporeal form will be dissolved. But your thoughts and even your memories will continue. You will no longer be organic. Your connection to your kind will be lost. Although you will remain aware of their existence.Shepard is DEAD! That thing controlling the Reapers is not Shepard, but an AI with access to Shepard's memories. I disagree that means Shepard is dead. From that description, it sounds like their soul is still alive. Physically they are dead, at least in the sense of their meatbag body is, but what makes them them is still alive. How do you put something we still don't know exists or where it could possibly located, into code?
You have an argument, but it is awfully weak considering we don't understand at all what consciousness actually is, and have only been studying the question for thousands of years now. Technology has changed nothing in this regard, other than some of the keywords used in the inadequate descriptions we try to make.
The body is dead. The mind is "captured" in a "snapshot". If that "snapshot" has a soul, then identity is meaningless. This goes directly to ancient questions: identity, knowledge, consciousness. What do these things mean?
So, I again am not saying you are wrong. But you make some large assumptions about what is real in our world and in theirs.
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Sundance31us
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Sundance31us
BSNer since 2010
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http://bsn.boards.net/threads/recent/143
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sundance31us on Jul 26, 2021 21:32:49 GMT
For reference.  |
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Post by dragontartare on Jul 26, 2021 22:11:25 GMT
For reference. Just more evidence of how Bioware intentionally tried to make destroy less desirable so people might want to pick the other options. The blue beam can tell the difference between reapers and geth, but the red beam can't? Right. 
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