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Post by Son of Dorn on Jun 30, 2021 21:06:55 GMT
I so want to reply truthfully and fully to your post, but the OP wants positivity so will have to refrain. Simply put: War is no excuse for those kinds of casualties, and people who think otherwise tend to be viewed unkindly by history. Your avatar certainly agrees with me. You prevented nothing since the Reapers in some new form could come back especially since you proved the Reapers right and some future synthetic race will reach that conclusion if not a worse one. The Synthesis ending still shows people having kids (like the krogan slides for example) so no idea where you got that idea or some of these others from. Also in Destroy you are still forcing your will in people who have no say. I’d say all the endings have hope in them. Almost too much so according to some. Well... that's good. If I wanted to be berated and belittled, I would not be here and instead be on Reddit. You seem very very fixated on Synthesis and are using exceptionally strong language. I'll take this opportunity to remind you that this is a video game, not real life, and advocating for one ending or another does not mean they are a) racist b ) or advocate for genocide in real life. 👆 This.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 30, 2021 21:25:13 GMT
They. Are. Still. Organics. Yea they had technology integrated in them, but every species in our cycle has already done that. You are getting really desperate if you are trying to compare it to racism and homophobia now. They Were. Altered. At. The. Molecular. Level. Without. Consent. Hey, I've read plenty of scifi stories about prejudice for or against augmented individuals. Or against anyone not genetically "acceptable" Heck, I know you've played the Deus Ex games, they were all about prejudice regarding the augmented. Then there:s Magneto from the X-Men comics/movies. The Purifiers from the comics The episode "Infection" from Babylon 5 The Nietzscheans and the Knights of Genetic Purity aka "Genites" Andromeda tv series. And who can forget the film Gattaca? But in any case, Synthesis means they are NOT purely organics any more. They have been altered a the genetic level, WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT to become something else. Something acceptable to the Reapers. That's effing chilling to me. Synthesis just screams "genetic purity" to me. I'm going to be honest, I don't get what most of these you are referring to are. So I'll just address the ones I know. Unlike Deus Ex, Mass Effect never showed that kind of discrimination towards augmentation. The only prejudice regarding technology was organics vs synthetics, and that had more to do with history rather than technology. Mass Effect is a lot more idyllic compared to other science fiction series in terms of prejudice. As for Magneto, I'm guessing you're using mutants being persecuted? If so that's more comparable to biotics than augmentation/technology. What you think it screams is irrelevant. We are shown and told that is not the case.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 30, 2021 21:37:13 GMT
They Were. Altered. At. The. Molecular. Level. Without. Consent. Hey, I've read plenty of scifi stories about prejudice for or against augmented individuals. Or against anyone not genetically "acceptable" Heck, I know you've played the Deus Ex games, they were all about prejudice regarding the augmented. Then there:s Magneto from the X-Men comics/movies. The Purifiers from the comics The episode "Infection" from Babylon 5 The Nietzscheans and the Knights of Genetic Purity aka "Genites" Andromeda tv series. And who can forget the film Gattaca? But in any case, Synthesis means they are NOT purely organics any more. They have been altered a the genetic level, WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT to become something else. Something acceptable to the Reapers. That's effing chilling to me. Synthesis just screams "genetic purity" to me. I'm going to be honest, I don't get what most of these you are referring to are. So I'll just address the ones I know. Unlike Deus Ex, Mass Effect never showed that kind of discrimination towards augmentation. The only prejudice regarding technology was organics vs synthetics, and that had more to do with history rather than technology. Mass Effect is a lot more idyllic compared to other science fiction series in terms of prejudice. As for Magneto, I'm guessing you're using mutants being persecuted? If so that's more comparable to biotics than augmentation/technology. What you think it screams is irrelevant. We are shown and told that is not the case. The Reapers are composting all advanced organics that don't fit their vision of what life should be like (which is all of them). Magneto sees mutants as being inherently superior to mundane humans. Just as the Reapers see Synthesis lives as being inherently "better" than mundane organics. Or mundane synthetics for that matter. "Synthesis is the final evolution of life" means:
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 30, 2021 21:46:30 GMT
I'm going to be honest, I don't get what most of these you are referring to are. So I'll just address the ones I know. Unlike Deus Ex, Mass Effect never showed that kind of discrimination towards augmentation. The only prejudice regarding technology was organics vs synthetics, and that had more to do with history rather than technology. Mass Effect is a lot more idyllic compared to other science fiction series in terms of prejudice. As for Magneto, I'm guessing you're using mutants being persecuted? If so that's more comparable to biotics than augmentation/technology. What you think it screams is irrelevant. We are shown and told that is not the case. The Reapers are composting all advanced organics that don't fit their vision of what life should be like (which is all of them). Except as I said before, this is not the reason the Reapers are harvesting us. We are told that explicitly multiple times, by the Reapers, by the being that created the Reapers, and by the beings that created the being that created the Reapers. The Reapers see Synthesis as solution not because it makes organics better, but because it is a solution to the problem they were created to solve: conflict between organics and synthetics. It's naive sure, since there are plenty of other reasons we'd fight each other, but it's not motivated by some form of racism.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 30, 2021 21:54:51 GMT
The Reapers are composting all advanced organics that don't fit their vision of what life should be like (which is all of them). Except as I said before, this is not the reason the Reapers are harvesting us. We are told that explicitly multiple times, by the Reapers, by the being that created the Reapers, and by the beings that created the being that created the Reapers. The Reapers see Synthesis as solution not because it makes organics better, but because it is a solution to the problem they were created to solve: conflict between organics and synthetics. It's naive sure, since there are plenty of other reasons we'd fight each other, but it's not motivated by some form of racism. Now tell me, in non-racist, non eugenicist ways, WHY Reapers think Synthesis fixes "conflict" in a way that pure organics cannot.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 30, 2021 22:03:01 GMT
Except as I said before, this is not the reason the Reapers are harvesting us. We are told that explicitly multiple times, by the Reapers, by the being that created the Reapers, and by the beings that created the being that created the Reapers. The Reapers see Synthesis as solution not because it makes organics better, but because it is a solution to the problem they were created to solve: conflict between organics and synthetics. It's naive sure, since there are plenty of other reasons we'd fight each other, but it's not motivated by some form of racism. Now tell me, in non-racist, non eugenicist ways, WHY Reapers think Synthesis fixes "conflict" in a way that pure organics cannot. It allows both to better understand each other. Same reason why things like education or the Internet (at least hoped) in the real world help demolish the barriers put up between people such as racism.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 30, 2021 22:39:28 GMT
It allows both to better understand each other. Same reason why things like education or the Internet (at least hoped) in the real world help demolish the barriers put up between people such as racism. By uniting everyone in a hivemind, that they have to be radically and drastically change, to be able to be part of. Like being a Borg.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 30, 2021 22:55:19 GMT
It allows both to better understand each other. Same reason why things like education or the Internet (at least hoped) in the real world help demolish the barriers put up between people such as racism. By uniting everyone in a hivemind, that they have to be radically and drastically change, to be able to be part of. Like being a Borg. They are no more a hivemind than we are now with the Internet.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 23:33:31 GMT
By uniting everyone in a hivemind, that they have to be radically and drastically change, to be able to be part of. Like being a Borg. They are no more a hivemind than we are now with the Internet. Please. I agree with you sometimes Hanako. Your bitterness over time about DA makes you much more human to me. However, on this topic I have always disagreed with you. Almost 10 years later, same argument we're having. Neither of us seem to be affected by this internet hivemind you talk about. Curious really.
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Post by mikaelnovasun on Jun 30, 2021 23:35:58 GMT
By uniting everyone in a hivemind, that they have to be radically and drastically change, to be able to be part of. Like being a Borg. They are no more a hivemind than we are now with the Internet. That is one poor analogy. I carry my phone, laptop, or computer and can leave it anywhere. It isn't a part of me. When you think through the complications of synthesis it is horrifying...to me at least. I am 100% happy with who and what I am, and if another has a problem with it that is on them. Forcing me to be similar to them to achieve "peace" is just...such a violation...You are going to have a galaxy full of beings who to think something similar, unless as others have stated synthesis involves some type of mind control/alteration. And that takes it to a whole another level.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 30, 2021 23:37:06 GMT
They are no more a hivemind than we are now with the Internet. Please. I agree with you sometimes Hanako. Your bitterness over time about DA makes you much more human to me. However, on this topic I have always disagreed with you. Almost 10 years later, same argument we're having. Neither of us seem to be affected by this internet hivemind you talk about. Curious really. Exactly my point. Despite being connected with it, we are still individuals. Same with Synthesis, which we see beyond a doubt in the ending. Well, I’m glad my suffering as a former Dragon Age fan has bettered your opinion of me I guess.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 30, 2021 23:38:18 GMT
They are no more a hivemind than we are now with the Internet. That is one poor analogy. I carry my phone, laptop, or computer and can leave it anywhere. It isn't a part of me. When you think through the complications of synthesis it is horrifying...to me at least. I am 100% happy with who and what I am, and if another has a problem with it that is on them. Forcing me to be similar to them to achieve "peace" is just...such a violation...You are going to have a galaxy full of beings who to think something similar, unless as others have stated synthesis involves some type of mind control/alteration. And that takes it to a whole another level. Good thing it doesn’t force you to be similar then and allows you to still be the individual you are, again as we see over and over in the epilogue.
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Post by mikaelnovasun on Jun 30, 2021 23:56:04 GMT
That is one poor analogy. I carry my phone, laptop, or computer and can leave it anywhere. It isn't a part of me. When you think through the complications of synthesis it is horrifying...to me at least. I am 100% happy with who and what I am, and if another has a problem with it that is on them. Forcing me to be similar to them to achieve "peace" is just...such a violation...You are going to have a galaxy full of beings who to think something similar, unless as others have stated synthesis involves some type of mind control/alteration. And that takes it to a whole another level. Good thing it doesn’t force you to be similar then and allows you to still be the individual you are, again as we see over and over in the epilogue. Really?? You can't be that...oblivious...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2021 0:04:16 GMT
What gets me about this whole discussion is that I know a number of you who, on one hand, object to synthesis because you see it as being forced upon the population, support sabotaging the genophage cure on the other hand. The genophage was also a DNA change forced upon an unwilling population in order to prevent the threat of further war. It's the exact same thing as the Synthesis ending. Obvious hypocrisy is obvious.
The only difference is that synthesis targets "understanding" rather than "reproduction"... but to see the possible reasons for it you only need to look to your own reasons for supporting the continued use of the genophage to suppress the krogan. Also look at how Morgon justifies it as being the best option for both sides... krogan included.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 1, 2021 0:08:24 GMT
Good thing it doesn’t force you to be similar then and allows you to still be the individual you are, again as we see over and over in the epilogue. Really?? You can't be that...oblivious... Prove me wrong. You clearly must have tons of facts and evidence to support your argument if disagreeing with you means I'm shockingly oblivious.
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Post by mikaelnovasun on Jul 1, 2021 0:18:36 GMT
Really?? You can't be that...oblivious... Prove me wrong. You clearly must have tons of facts and evidence to support your argument if disagreeing with you means I'm shockingly oblivious. The whole point of synthesis was to make life similar, EVERY "living" thing becomes part organic and part synthetic. In order to avoid war according to starbrat is that all life had to become similar to achieve true peace and enlightenment, ie the glowing green circuitry that even the plants have in the synthesis ending.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 1, 2021 0:22:06 GMT
By uniting everyone in a hivemind, that they have to be radically and drastically change, to be able to be part of. Like being a Borg. They are no more a hivemind than we are now with the Internet. The Reapers operate under complete unison. No separate opinions, no dissent, no division. What we are having here, a discussion, or an argument, would not exist in Synthesis. We would already have the answers to our questions dictated to us. The Catalyst is no different to the Borg Queen and we would be no different to the Drones. Individuality would be snuffed out, or those clinging to their individuality would be, or brainwashed out of it, like it happens in a Borg hive. Anything else, would be a threat to the harmony of the Reapers. You think the same, you operate the same, you are a Reaper. And when an organic, a pure organic, shows up, you will kill them, because you are a Reaper. You are basically a husk, with a little more autonomy.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2021 0:47:02 GMT
They are no more a hivemind than we are now with the Internet. The Reapers operate under complete unison. No separate opinions, no dissent, no division. What we are having here, a discussion, or an argument, would not exist in Synthesis. We would already have the answers to our questions dictated to us. The Catalyst is no different to the Borg Queen and we would be no different to the Drones. Individuality would be snuffed out, or those clinging to their individuality would be, or brainwashed out of it, like it happens in a Borg hive. Anything else, would be a threat to the harmony of the Reapers. You think the same, you operate the same, you are a Reaper. And when an organic, a pure organic, shows up, you will kill them, because you are a Reaper. You are basically a husk, with a little more autonomy. The post synthesis ending slides don't bear that notion out... they show species that are still genetically different from each other (e.g. different in physical appearance and abilities) and who still have interests that are different from each other.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 1, 2021 0:59:09 GMT
The post synthesis ending slides don't bear that notion out... they show species that are still genetically different from each other (e.g. different in physical appearance and abilities) and who still have interests that are different from each other. Which is why I said "autonomy", but don't mistake for a second, the moment an Organic steps into the Milky Way, you WILL kill them. You may work in perfect harmony with each other, no more breaking the law, no more crime, no more depression, no more doubt, no uncertainty, the collective will wipe all those feelings out. A family member died? You won't feel sad. Working retail your entire life? You are happy to do so. Because the Reapers will it. Which is why in the Synthesis ending, the Krogan do not go to war with each other etc. You are, effectively, a Borg drone, a person stuck in the Matrix, or whatever other parallel you can draw.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 1, 2021 1:24:31 GMT
Being fully integrated with technology on a biological level is a far difference from simply white skin, blonde hair and blue eyes. Jesse Owen's pretty much crushed that dumb ass idea that white skin, blonde hair and blue eyes inherently makes you superior to others. Simply sticking with the DNA only and ignoring all else is exactly like saying a rubber squeak t bone steak toy and an actual t bone from smokey bones is the same simply because they both have steak in the name.
Not really. Saying one form of sapient life is worth hanging out with and another is only worth composting is, well, "problematic" You're saying one is "better" or "more worthy" than the other. Ubermench, if you will.
I'm starting to rethink a reply I made to someone else about another topic.
That said your continual references to nazi eugenics only makes me wonder if you actually understand what stupidity they were actually pushing. The bullshit occult mythos they tried to craft that was and still is sharply rejected by the actual facts of reality. And how this contrasts sharply with the Catalyst stating the inherent flaws of all organic life and the limitations of evolution between organic species and inorganic species creates an irreversible rift between organic and synthetic life. And that the only way to solve the under lying problem is for all races to be jumped forwards down the technological and evolutionary path to a point in time were that gulf has been reduced if not eliminated. At which point the fundamental problems are solved and all the races of the galaxy can continue onto the new stage of evolution.
Or to put it much more simply nazi's say only white europeans are special and everyone else is fucked up. The Catalyst says everyone is fucked up and the only solution is to bring everyone forward together.
If you still don't understand the difference then you must have been one of those people who was on brock turner's side. Based on the logic that because two consenting adults touch each other's genitals. It means that it is the same as touching the genitals of a girl who is passed out behind a dumpster is equally fine. Because they both involve genital touching.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 1, 2021 1:27:30 GMT
Good thing it doesn’t force you to be similar then and allows you to still be the individual you are, again as we see over and over in the epilogue. Really?? You can't be that...oblivious... To what specifically? Who was shown to be forcibly altered from their original state?
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Post by mikaelnovasun on Jul 1, 2021 1:40:53 GMT
Really?? You can't be that...oblivious... To what specifically? Who was shown to be forcibly altered from their original state? EVERY living thing......
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Post by Iakus on Jul 1, 2021 1:46:01 GMT
Now tell me, in non-racist, non eugenicist ways, WHY Reapers think Synthesis fixes "conflict" in a way that pure organics cannot. It allows both to better understand each other. Same reason why things like education or the Internet (at least hoped) in the real world help demolish the barriers put up between people such as racism. How? "Understanding" and education is not in the DNA. The only way you could "demolish racism" through physical or genetic alterations is to make everyone the same race.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Jul 1, 2021 1:51:16 GMT
Not really. Saying one form of sapient life is worth hanging out with and another is only worth composting is, well, "problematic" You're saying one is "better" or "more worthy" than the other. Ubermench, if you will.
I'm starting to rethink a reply I made to someone else about another topic.
That said your continual references to nazi eugenics only makes me wonder if you actually understand what stupidity they were actually pushing. The bullshit occult mythos they tried to craft that was and still is sharply rejected by the actual facts of reality. And how this contrasts sharply with the Catalyst stating the inherent flaws of all organic life and the limitations of evolution between organic species and inorganic species creates an irreversible rift between organic and synthetic life. And that the only way to solve the under lying problem is for all races to be jumped forwards down the technological and evolutionary path to a point in time were that gulf has been reduced if not eliminated. At which point the fundamental problems are solved and all the races of the galaxy can continue onto the new stage of evolution.
Or to put it much more simply nazi's say only white europeans are special and everyone else is fucked up. The Catalyst says everyone is fucked up and the only solution is to bring everyone forward together.
If you still don't understand the difference then you must have been one of those people who was on brock turner's side. Based on the logic that because two consenting adults touch each other's genitals. It means that it is the same as touching the genitals of a girl who is passed out behind a dumpster is equally fine. Because they both involve genital touching.
Bullsh*t. Technology is not a straight line. There are many paths to the same end. Accepting another's path blinds you to alternatives. Nazara — Sovereign — said this itself. "Your civilization is based upon the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2021 3:05:39 GMT
The post synthesis ending slides don't bear that notion out... they show species that are still genetically different from each other (e.g. different in physical appearance and abilities) and who still have interests that are different from each other. Which is why I said "autonomy", but don't mistake for a second, the moment an Organic steps into the Milky Way, you WILL kill them. You may work in perfect harmony with each other, no more breaking the law, no more crime, no more depression, no more doubt, no uncertainty, the collective will wipe all those feelings out. A family member died? You won't feel sad. Working retail your entire life? You are happy to do so. Because the Reapers will it. Which is why in the Synthesis ending, the Krogan do not go to war with each other etc. You are, effectively, a Borg drone, a person stuck in the Matrix, or whatever other parallel you can draw. No, you're still basing this on what you imagine not what is shown in the ending slides in the game. We won't know how a synthesis ending works with aliens entering the galaxy unless Bioware shows us a situation where aliens are entering the galaxy. No where does the Catalyst say that the "understanding" would create individuals incapable of thinking for themselves or discerning their own individual likes and dislikes. The slides do depict a "peaceful existence" but no where does it indicate that everyone is turned into the sort of drones you're imagining.
That's another thing that gets me about all these ending discussions... people continually pull in what they imagine rather than rely on what they are told and shown by the game itself... and there is a clear hypocrisy among many of the staunch supporters of the destroy ending... in that they also support the sabotage of the genophage cure. As I indicated above, we are shown quite clearly that synthesis is very similar to the genophage. Heck, it's even "delivered" by a similar device. The "reasons" for it are given in the game... first by Mordin relative to the genophage and again by the Catalyst.
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