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Post by AngryFrozenWater on Apr 14, 2022 12:06:45 GMT
I agree that Legion fixing the hole with Shepard's armor doesn't make much sense.
If a synthetic species think their collective intelligence is sufficient then the quest for becoming individuals doesn't make sense from a logical perspective. However, the geth had one trait that may make them rethink that sooner or later. If more platforms make them function better as a collective then the opposite is true too: Less platforms make them function less practical. In addition to that, decisions they make are intended to advance their goals, or at least make sure that they will survive. When their survival is threatened then becoming individuals lessen the disadvantage of have a low number of platforms and thus they will have a better chance to surviving. It makes sense. I don't think that has anything to do with Pinocchio.
About Legion's obsession with Shepard: It is overrated. As a collection the geth were interested in survival and when they found out that Shepard had an above average chance to make a difference in the fight against the reapers then monitoring Shepard makes sense. Even an alliance makes sense. Legion happens to be the chosen platform and projecting emotional traits like obsession to Legion, is a value judgement made by organics, who are driven by emotion. The geth merely followed logic.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 14, 2022 14:30:01 GMT
It's even easier than that. We know some geth went to Andromeda (let's pretend it happened, okay?). According to Legion "we are all geth". Okay, so the MW geth get wiped out but we still have the Andromeda geth. We know geth can see what's going on in Andromeda in the moment with the Kholas Array. That's was the AI used to find their "golden worlds". If the geth were to look back from Andromeda at any point they might think it's worthwhile to send at least some of the back to the MW. Since they're "all geth" it doesn't matter. Some here, some there, they're all the same. Sure, it might take 1200 years but geth, real, original geth, could return to the MW. I'd actually posit that the downloaded into unique bodies geth are not real geth. It's also a sham that they should want to exist in exactly the same way as humans. It was never true before but all of a sudden it's what they want. How do you gain a consensus for that?Chris Étoile, who created the Geth and EDI (as well as most of the universe’s worldbuilding) but left the job after he finished his ME2 writing, said outright that it would make no sense for AI to take on a Pinocchio style “wanting to be a real boy” approach. Their notion of life is not to just copy and be organic life with solid state hardware. The Shepard armor bit that many of us (myself included) took to mean Legion had some sort of pseudo-emotional fascination with Shepard, it turns out, was a top down directive from the execs that Legion should be wearing a piece of Shep’s armor. It wasn’t part of his writing or development. Replaying ME3 recently, it hit me how much they did that kind of anthropomorphism in the game. I still enjoyed the experience, but it felt jarring coming right off of replaying ME2 (whereas last time I played ME3 was at launch, so there was a bit of distance from ME2’s writing of Legion and the Geth). It really says how much the suits (and a number of the writers) did NOT understand Mass Effect's appeal.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 14, 2022 14:32:54 GMT
I agree that Legion fixing the hole with Shepard's armor doesn't make much sense. If a synthetic species think their collective intelligence is sufficient then the quest for becoming individuals doesn't make sense from a logical perspective. However, the geth had one trait that may make them rethink that sooner or later. If more platforms make them function better as a collective then the opposite is true too: Less platforms make them function less practical. In addition to that, decisions they make are intended to advance their goals, or at least make sure that they will survive. When their survival is threatened then becoming individuals lessen the disadvantage of have a low number of platforms and thus they will have a better chance to surviving. It makes sense. I don't think that has anything to do with Pinocchio. If the geth were that interested in survival, they would not have build their structure in Rannoch's system, but would have put it in some uninhabitable system the quarians would have no interest in. Ideally one the quarians didn't even know existed. Then they could be one huge superintelligence AND not have to worry about being wiped out by the Creators
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AngryFrozenWater
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Post by AngryFrozenWater on Apr 14, 2022 14:53:43 GMT
I agree that Legion fixing the hole with Shepard's armor doesn't make much sense. If a synthetic species think their collective intelligence is sufficient then the quest for becoming individuals doesn't make sense from a logical perspective. However, the geth had one trait that may make them rethink that sooner or later. If more platforms make them function better as a collective then the opposite is true too: Less platforms make them function less practical. In addition to that, decisions they make are intended to advance their goals, or at least make sure that they will survive. When their survival is threatened then becoming individuals lessen the disadvantage of have a low number of platforms and thus they will have a better chance to surviving. It makes sense. I don't think that has anything to do with Pinocchio. If the geth were that interested in survival, they would not have build their structure in Rannoch's system, but would have put it in some uninhabitable system the quarians would have no interest in. Ideally one the quarians didn't even know existed. Then they could be one huge superintelligence AND not have to worry about being wiped out by the Creators True. On the other hand, the geth may believe the preservation and cleanup of the quarian's home worlds may lead to peace.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Apr 14, 2022 15:04:50 GMT
Chris Étoile, who created the Geth and EDI (as well as most of the universe’s worldbuilding) but left the job after he finished his ME2 writing, said outright that it would make no sense for AI to take on a Pinocchio style “wanting to be a real boy” approach. Their notion of life is not to just copy and be organic life with solid state hardware. The Shepard armor bit that many of us (myself included) took to mean Legion had some sort of pseudo-emotional fascination with Shepard, it turns out, was a top down directive from the execs that Legion should be wearing a piece of Shep’s armor. It wasn’t part of his writing or development. Replaying ME3 recently, it hit me how much they did that kind of anthropomorphism in the game. I still enjoyed the experience, but it felt jarring coming right off of replaying ME2 (whereas last time I played ME3 was at launch, so there was a bit of distance from ME2’s writing of Legion and the Geth). It really says how much the suits (and a number of the writers) did NOT understand Mass Effect's appeal. Would have best if the geth hadn't been fleshed out.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 14, 2022 19:28:43 GMT
It really says how much the suits (and a number of the writers) did NOT understand Mass Effect's appeal. Would have best if the geth hadn't been fleshed out. I don't know about "not fleshed out" but they, and the Reapers, should have stayed mysterious.
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dmc1001
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 14, 2022 19:30:53 GMT
If a synthetic species think their collective intelligence is sufficient then the quest for becoming individuals doesn't make sense from a logical perspective. However, the geth had one trait that may make them rethink that sooner or later. If more platforms make them function better as a collective then the opposite is true too: Less platforms make them function less practical. In addition to that, decisions they make are intended to advance their goals, or at least make sure that they will survive. When their survival is threatened then becoming individuals lessen the disadvantage of have a low number of platforms and thus they will have a better chance to surviving. It makes sense. I don't think that has anything to do with Pinocchio. Disagree. The geth were in a multitude of platforms. Those platform just weren't individuals. It's also worth noting that there were over a thousand programs inside of Legion. Legion referred to those programs as "we" which makes it clear that each program is a part of the collective geth. You could have a thousand humanoid platforms but they're all be composed of a thousand geth. ME3 made it different in that each geth got its own humanoid body. It made no sense since Legion itself was never a single geth. I'd have put a thousand geth in each of those thousand platforms. It would actually allow them to create new geth to transfer to new platforms (which does not mean bodies).
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 14, 2022 19:36:39 GMT
On the other hand, the geth may believe the preservation and cleanup of the quarian's home worlds may lead to peace. At this point, sure. They mostly wanted to be left alone. Based on what they knew, geth tended to kill or drive out any organics who came into their space. Quarians for sure because, though they no longer hated them, they knew they would once more try to kill them. Once some idiotic admirals were made to see the error of their ways, peace became possible again, thus proving that the Leviathans are colossal idiots. Of course, we had prior evidence with the zha/zha'til in the Prothean cycle but whatever. We've also got EDI and SAM. But whatever. We'll just know the Reapers (or the Intelligence, though that doesn't hold up to what Sovereign said in ME1) are incredibly stupid and their insistence in mind controlling their empire was likely the root cause of the organic/synthetic wars. In fact, their ways led to the creation of the Reapers who engaged in the same behavior (shocking, since they were made in the image and thinking of their creators), which was what the zha turned on the zha'til. The Reapers forced it, thus "proving" they were right.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Apr 14, 2022 20:25:44 GMT
Would have best if the geth hadn't been fleshed out. I don't know about "not fleshed out" but they, and the Reapers, should have stayed mysterious. No argument here. 👍
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 14, 2022 21:39:10 GMT
Would have best if the geth hadn't been fleshed out. I don't know about "not fleshed out" but they, and the Reapers, should have stayed mysterious. No thanks. They are my favorite ME race, so them not being developed would have been bad.
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AngryFrozenWater
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Post by AngryFrozenWater on Apr 15, 2022 8:45:15 GMT
If a synthetic species think their collective intelligence is sufficient then the quest for becoming individuals doesn't make sense from a logical perspective. However, the geth had one trait that may make them rethink that sooner or later. If more platforms make them function better as a collective then the opposite is true too: Less platforms make them function less practical. In addition to that, decisions they make are intended to advance their goals, or at least make sure that they will survive. When their survival is threatened then becoming individuals lessen the disadvantage of have a low number of platforms and thus they will have a better chance to surviving. It makes sense. I don't think that has anything to do with Pinocchio. Disagree. The geth were in a multitude of platforms. Those platform just weren't individuals. It's also worth noting that there were over a thousand programs inside of Legion. Legion referred to those programs as "we" which makes it clear that each program is a part of the collective geth. You could have a thousand humanoid platforms but they're all be composed of a thousand geth. ME3 made it different in that each geth got its own humanoid body. It made no sense since Legion itself was never a single geth. I'd have put a thousand geth in each of those thousand platforms. It would actually allow them to create new geth to transfer to new platforms (which does not mean bodies). When I said platforms then I meant that doesn't mean individuals. I meant that they were a collective which grew strong (more intelligent) in numbers and weaker when the number of platforms dropped. I also noted that choosing to become individuals may diminish the weakness of the low numbers. Sorry that I wasn't clear. But I do know how the geth work.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 15, 2022 11:33:39 GMT
On the other hand, the geth may believe the preservation and cleanup of the quarian's home worlds may lead to peace. At this point, sure. They mostly wanted to be left alone. Based on what they knew, geth tended to kill or drive out any organics who came into their space. Quarians for sure because, though they no longer hated them, they knew they would once more try to kill them. Once some idiotic admirals were made to see the error of their ways, peace became possible again, thus proving that the Leviathans are colossal idiots. Of course, we had prior evidence with the zha/zha'til in the Prothean cycle but whatever. We've also got EDI and SAM. But whatever. We'll just know the Reapers (or the Intelligence, though that doesn't hold up to what Sovereign said in ME1) are incredibly stupid and their insistence in mind controlling their empire was likely the root cause of the organic/synthetic wars. In fact, their ways led to the creation of the Reapers who engaged in the same behavior (shocking, since they were made in the image and thinking of their creators), which was what the zha turned on the zha'til. The Reapers forced it, thus "proving" they were right. Peace only happens because of reaper interference. Had Admiral 'I have an itchy trigger finger' Gerrell, stopped firing for a moment, the geth might have stopped a few moments later. Both sides sit down to talk about a truce long enough to deal with the reapers. No one knows how long the peace lasts, but that is something to worry about after the reapers are destroyed. This would be the best argument put to thing about machines and organics able to exist without killing each other. ah yes, Leviathan. As I've said many times before. They suffer from politician syndrome, the big head, believing everything they say and do without considering what the possible consequences might be. The prothean cycle and this cycle proved the reapers were never needed. I would not be surprised if this has happened in previous cycles as well. How different would it have been if Levi the loser had an organic do what they wanted the intelligence to do? It's all about the I don't care attitude. Thus they suffer from politican syndrome. There was no mistake remember. It wasn't their fault, it was the other guy.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 15, 2022 15:41:20 GMT
I don't know about "not fleshed out" but they, and the Reapers, should have stayed mysterious. No thanks. They are my favorite ME race, so them not being developed would have been bad. Developed and mysterious are not mutually exclusive.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 15, 2022 15:46:59 GMT
At this point, sure. They mostly wanted to be left alone. Based on what they knew, geth tended to kill or drive out any organics who came into their space. Quarians for sure because, though they no longer hated them, they knew they would once more try to kill them. Once some idiotic admirals were made to see the error of their ways, peace became possible again, thus proving that the Leviathans are colossal idiots. Of course, we had prior evidence with the zha/zha'til in the Prothean cycle but whatever. We've also got EDI and SAM. But whatever. We'll just know the Reapers (or the Intelligence, though that doesn't hold up to what Sovereign said in ME1) are incredibly stupid and their insistence in mind controlling their empire was likely the root cause of the organic/synthetic wars. In fact, their ways led to the creation of the Reapers who engaged in the same behavior (shocking, since they were made in the image and thinking of their creators), which was what the zha turned on the zha'til. The Reapers forced it, thus "proving" they were right. Peace only happens because of reaper interference. Had Admiral 'I have an itchy trigger finger' Gerrell, stopped firing for a moment, the geth might have stopped a few moments later. Both sides sit down to talk about a truce long enough to deal with the reapers. No one knows how long the peace lasts, but that is something to worry about after the reapers are destroyed. This would be the best argument put to thing about machines and organics able to exist without killing each other.ah yes, Leviathan. As I've said many times before. They suffer from politician syndrome, the big head, believing everything they say and do without considering what the possible consequences might be. The prothean cycle and this cycle proved the reapers were never needed. I would not be surprised if this has happened in previous cycles as well. How different would it have been if Levi the loser had an organic do what they wanted the intelligence to do? It's all about the I don't care attitude. Thus they suffer from politican syndrome. There was no mistake remember. It wasn't their fault, it was the other guy. Alternatively, if the fairly reasonable Han'Gerrell of ME2 not been replaced by the pod person Han'Gerrell of ME3, he might have done just that. As for the Leviathans: "There was no mistake, it still serves its purpose" tells you everything you need to know about their overweening pride.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 15, 2022 15:50:03 GMT
If a synthetic species think their collective intelligence is sufficient then the quest for becoming individuals doesn't make sense from a logical perspective. However, the geth had one trait that may make them rethink that sooner or later. If more platforms make them function better as a collective then the opposite is true too: Less platforms make them function less practical. In addition to that, decisions they make are intended to advance their goals, or at least make sure that they will survive. When their survival is threatened then becoming individuals lessen the disadvantage of have a low number of platforms and thus they will have a better chance to surviving. It makes sense. I don't think that has anything to do with Pinocchio. Disagree. The geth were in a multitude of platforms. Those platform just weren't individuals. It's also worth noting that there were over a thousand programs inside of Legion. Legion referred to those programs as "we" which makes it clear that each program is a part of the collective geth. You could have a thousand humanoid platforms but they're all be composed of a thousand geth. ME3 made it different in that each geth got its own humanoid body. It made no sense since Legion itself was never a single geth. I'd have put a thousand geth in each of those thousand platforms. It would actually allow them to create new geth to transfer to new platforms (which does not mean bodies). See, that's why I liked the geth so much. Their way of thinking and outlook for the galaxy was so different. the conversations with Legion made it clear they were NOT HUMAN, and did not see the universe as humans did. They were different, ALIEN.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 15, 2022 16:43:44 GMT
No thanks. They are my favorite ME race, so them not being developed would have been bad. Developed and mysterious are not mutually exclusive. No, they pretty much are. To develop something, you have to explore more about it. Doing that makes them less mysterious.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 15, 2022 19:50:14 GMT
Developed and mysterious are not mutually exclusive. No, they pretty much are. To develop something, you have to explore more about it. Doing that makes them less mysterious. But aspects of them can remain mysterious. Look at Shepherd Book from Firefly. heck we didn't even know his first name until the movie, let alone his backstory. But he was still a developed character. The characters from the movie Aliens: You know little more about their history than their last names, but their personalities, and motives shine through, and there is even growth and development (especially Private Hudson) Demon Slayer: how much did we learn about Kyojuro the Flame Hashira before his death? Was he poorly developed? Then there's just about every Man With No Name western ever made...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 15, 2022 20:25:46 GMT
No, they pretty much are. To develop something, you have to explore more about it. Doing that makes them less mysterious. But aspects of them can remain mysterious. Look at Shepherd Book from Firefly. heck we didn't even know his first name until the movie, let alone his backstory. But he was still a developed character. The characters from the movie Aliens: You know little more about their history than their last names, but their personalities, and motives shine through, and there is even growth and development (especially Private Hudson) Demon Slayer: how much did we learn about Kyojuro the Flame Hashira before his death? Was he poorly developed? Then there's just about every Man With No Name western ever made... Never watched Firefly so can’t comment. Sure, but I wouldn’t say the fodder in Aliens were well-developed characters. The only exceptions were the ones they focused on. As for Kyojuro, first off just watched Demon Slayer this week so yay! But are we going with movie version of episode version? He was definitely less developed in the movie version compared to the show version, the latter actually giving us insight into who he was as a person besides “first to volunteer to murder Tanjiro and Nexuko”. But either way, yes he was poorly developed. There was no reason his death should have hit the three that hard, especially since for two of them it was literally their first meeting and for Tanjiro again his only previous experience wasn’t exactly positive. I felt more for many of the minor demons or even more minor characters than I did for him. Not a huge fan of those kinds of Westerns. All the best Westerns I can think of have the characters very developed, like Tombstone.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 16, 2022 1:05:19 GMT
When I said platforms then I meant that doesn't mean individuals. I meant that they were a collective which grew strong (more intelligent) in numbers and weaker when the number of platforms dropped. I also noted that choosing to become individuals may diminish the weakness of the low numbers. Sorry that I wasn't clear. But I do know how the geth work. Yeah, maybe I wasn't reading clearly.
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Post by Bann Duncan on Apr 16, 2022 5:22:21 GMT
Developed and mysterious are not mutually exclusive. No, they pretty much are. To develop something, you have to explore more about it. Doing that makes them less mysterious. I think ME2 developed the geth and quarians a lot (and though people forget it now, they have a strong foundation in ME1, like learning about the quarian admiralty's constitution.) But after my current replay, the geth writing in ME3 just feels a lot shallower, and doesn't track with ME2 very much at all.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Apr 16, 2022 7:14:37 GMT
No, they pretty much are. To develop something, you have to explore more about it. Doing that makes them less mysterious. I think ME2 developed the geth and quarians a lot (and though people forget it now, they have a strong foundation in ME1, like learning about the quarian admiralty's constitution.) But after my current replay, the geth writing in ME3 just feels a lot shallower, and doesn't track with ME2 very much at all. A lot of things don't track with ME2 in ME3. Atomised the Collector base in 2? Guess what, TIMMY still gets the base. Despite the fact that the whole thing was atomised.
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dmc1001
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 18, 2022 11:09:50 GMT
A lot of things don't track with ME2 in ME3. Atomised the Collector base in 2? Guess what, TIMMY still gets the base. Despite the fact that the whole thing was atomised. It just shows you that not only are humans The Best but that Reapers in human form are superior since they could survive being atomized whereas as Sovereign fell to pieces. I mean, no one was making an asari or even a krogan Raper. Nope, it's a human reason. Suck it all you aliens who think we don't belong at the top of the food chain. See, TIM was right. Just ask the human Reaper. Which is probably mind controlling him since we know even dead Reapers are capable of controlling minds. Catalyst was a joke anyway. It didn't track with ME1 or ME2. Sovereign said that each Reaper was like a nation. How does that work if, as some posit, they're merely puppets doing what the Catalyst tells them to do? This, btw, is from people defending why they deserve to exist at the end of the Reaper War. Then, in ME2, Harbinger is clearly the head honcho. Everyone bends to its will. It's the "vanguard of our destruction". It's not a puppet. The Catalyst was stupid. It only works if it's an AI that the Reapers created the prevent the Crucible from ever functioning. As for the Catalyst (while I'm on this track), how would it be the necessary component in order for it to work if it's the enemy intelligence? Was the plan of every cycle that tried to build the Crucible to somehow lure it into a trap where it becomes a slave to the builders? As if. The Reapers have the knowledge of a billion years or more, and of at least 20,000 alien races that were harvested every 50,000 years for a billion years. (Remember, the Leviathan of Dis is stated to be a billion years old and it obviously wasn't the first Reaper.) This only works if the Crucible was a Reaper invention attempting to end the organic/synthetic war via Synthesis except no other races were up to the task. This is why I need what used to be JAM for the OT and AHEM for MELE. AHEM removes any instance of the Catalyst - the kid in the duct (though not the one who died on the shuttle as Shep watched), the dreams and as part of the Crucible or Citadel or wherever they were. Just instant, red death for the Reapers! Woo-hoo! AHEM does save EDI and the geth, which makes sense because why would the Destroy choice wipe out all AI. I never made sense.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Apr 18, 2022 11:16:05 GMT
A lot of things don't track with ME2 in ME3. Atomised the Collector base in 2? Guess what, TIMMY still gets the base. Despite the fact that the whole thing was atomised. It just shows you that not only are humans The Best but that Reapers in human form are superior since they could survive being atomized whereas as Sovereign fell to pieces. I mean, no one was making an asari or even a krogan Raper. Nope, it's a human reason. Suck it all you aliens who think we don't belong at the top of the food chain. See, TIM was right. Just ask the human Reaper. Which is probably mind controlling him since we know even dead Reapers are capable of controlling minds. Catalyst was a joke anyway. It didn't track with ME1 or ME2. Sovereign said that each Reaper was like a nation. How does that work if, as some posit, they're merely puppets doing what the Catalyst tells them to do? This, btw, is from people defending why they deserve to exist at the end of the Reaper War. Then, in ME2, Harbinger is clearly the head honcho. Everyone bends to its will. It's the "vanguard of our destruction". It's not a puppet. The Catalyst was stupid. It only works if it's an AI that the Reapers created the prevent the Crucible from ever functioning. As for the Catalyst (while I'm on this track), how would it be the necessary component in order for it to work if it's the enemy intelligence? Was the plan of every cycle that tried to build the Crucible to somehow lure it into a trap where it becomes a slave to the builders? As if. The Reapers have the knowledge of a billion years or more, and of at least 20,000 alien races that were harvested every 50,000 years for a billion years. (Remember, the Leviathan of Dis is stated to be a billion years old and it obviously wasn't the first Reaper.) This only works if the Crucible was a Reaper invention attempting to end the organic/synthetic war via Synthesis except no other races were up to the task. This is why I need what used to be JAM for the OT and AHEM for MELE. AHEM removes any instance of the Catalyst - the kid in the duct (though not the one who died on the shuttle as Shep watched), the dreams and as part of the Crucible or Citadel or wherever they were. Just instant, red death for the Reapers! Woo-hoo! AHEM does save EDI and the geth, which makes sense because why would the Destroy choice wipe out all AI. I never made sense. Because the Qun... sorry, because Hudson and Walters demand it! 😄
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 18, 2022 11:21:05 GMT
Because the Qun... sorry, because Hudson and Walters demand it! Hey, hey! The Reapers made sense when Sovereign was telling its story! It was later that things got messy. Two games later.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Apr 18, 2022 11:53:51 GMT
Because the Qun... sorry, because Hudson and Walters demand it! Hey, hey! The Reapers made sense when Sovereign was telling its story! It was later that things got messy. Two games later. Don't you mean one game later (ME2)?
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