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Post by necrowaif on Dec 9, 2021 20:53:36 GMT
Doesn't Awakening expansion imply heavily that the Fifth Blight was started prematurely? In fact the Fourth Blight was so devastating to Darkspawn number, people of Thedas believed it was the last blight. So when the Architect awakened the Archdemon after the failed Joining Ritual, the Darkspawn were still too few in number to overtake Thedas, hell Fereldan in middle of civil war was able to stop them. Not really. Yes, it did start because the Architect attempted his false Joining on Urthemiel, which only ended up transforming the Old God into the Archdemon. And yes, people believed that the darkspawn weren't really a problem anymore on account of how many were killed during the Fourth Blight. But there's no indication that the darkspawn were lacking in numbers during the Fifth Blight. They don't lose any of their race to disease or old age and a single broodmother can spawn thousands of darkspawn, so they have no problem replenishing their ranks. If it seems like Urthemiel was taking its sweet time to really attack Ferelden, I suspect that was a deliberate strategy; it wanted the surfacers to doubt for as long as possible that this was a true Blight.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 9, 2021 21:36:19 GMT
But there's no indication that the darkspawn were lacking in numbers during the Fifth Blight. They don't lose anyone to disease or old age, and a single broodmother can spawn thousands of darkspawn, so they have no problem replenishing their ranks. Yes, in the 400 odd years since the 4th Blight the numbers would have built up quite considerably. What was peculiar is that they only surfaced in Ferelden whereas you would imagine the broodmothers must have been spread across the Deep Roads throughout Thedas and some would have surfaced elsewhere as they did in other Blights but maybe the Grey Wardens there didn't make the connection. Although, thinking about it, can't all Wardens "hear" the Arch-demon so they would all know a Blight had started? If it seems like Urthemiel was taking its sweet time to really attack Ferelden, I suspect that was a deliberate strategy; i t wanted the surfacers to doubt for as long as possible that this was a true Blight.Maybe it took him a while to make his way to the surface. I think the Old Gods are located quite deep, so once the Architect had awakened him Urthemiel had to find his way out through the various tunnels, some of which may have been too small to accommodate him so he had to find an alternative route. During the First Blight the darkspawn were attacking the dwarven thaigs for a considerable time before they burst onto the surface. The indicator that a Blight had begun in Ferelden was the number of darkspawn that were spilling onto the surface, far more than would be normal between Blights, particularly in Ferelden which didn't have a history of continuous darkspawn incursions like, say, the Anderfels or the Western Approach. However, they emerged initially in the deep south so only the Grey Wardens were aware of it. It is also possible that some of them returned underground after Ostagar because the Arch-demon was still down below. As I said before, Loghain seemed able to convince those who hadn't been there that it was not something to worry about and ensured the silence of those that were there if they went against his story. I don't think the Arch-demon is bothered whether people think it is a true Blight or not. Whilst they are intelligent I don't think they are that sophisticated in their thinking.
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Post by necrowaif on Dec 9, 2021 22:35:32 GMT
What was peculiar is that they only surfaced in Ferelden whereas you would imagine the broodmothers must have been spread across the Deep Roads throughout Thedas and some would have surfaced elsewhere as they did in other Blights but maybe the Grey Wardens there didn't make the connection. Again, I think that was deliberate on the Archdemon’s part. Ferelden only had a small number of Wardens and had never experienced a Blight to the extent of other nations, so the people there weren’t truly ready to deal with such a crisis. Oh no, I think it was actually very cunning. Allowing Ferelden to doubt whether this was a true Blight kept the country from mobilizing its defences as it should have; instead, Loghain focused his efforts on fighting a civil war and bringing the nobles into line. And this strategy nearly worked. Had it not been for Flemeth and the HoF, Ferelden would have been completely destroyed by the darkspawn.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 10, 2021 0:14:04 GMT
What was peculiar is that they only surfaced in Ferelden whereas you would imagine the broodmothers must have been spread across the Deep Roads throughout Thedas and some would have surfaced elsewhere as they did in other Blights but maybe the Grey Wardens there didn't make the connection. Again, I think that was deliberate on the Archdemon’s part. Ferelden only had a small number of Wardens and had never experienced a Blight to the extent of other nations, so the people there weren’t truly ready to deal with such a crisis. Oh no, I think it was actually very cunning. Allowing Ferelden to doubt whether this was a true Blight kept the country from mobilizing its defences as it should have; instead, Loghain focused his efforts on fighting a civil war and bringing the nobles into line. And this strategy nearly worked. Had it not been for Flemeth and the HoF, Ferelden would have been completely destroyed by the darkspawn. My read on the situation is the same as yours, I think the Archdemon was trying to play the long game...which is ironic that it ended up being the shortest Blight in history
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 10, 2021 8:16:29 GMT
Again, I think that was deliberate on the Archdemon’s part. Ferelden only had a small number of Wardens and had never experienced a Blight to the extent of other nations, so the people there weren’t truly ready to deal with such a crisis. Oh no, I think it was actually very cunning. Allowing Ferelden to doubt whether this was a true Blight kept the country from mobilizing its defences as it should have; instead, Loghain focused his efforts on fighting a civil war and bringing the nobles into line. And this strategy nearly worked. Had it not been for Flemeth and the HoF, Ferelden would have been completely destroyed by the darkspawn My read on the situation is the same as yours, I think the Archdemon was trying to play the long game...which is ironic that it ended up being the shortest Blight in history So what you are suggesting is that Urthemiel was a much smarter Arch-demon than the rest of them. This is a possibility, although my comments were based on an analysis of the behaviour of Arch-demons during previous Blights. However, it strikes me that deliberately delaying the offensive after Ostagar actually worked against him. The darkspawn had inflicted a massive blow on the surfacers, whilst only suffering minor damage to their numbers. It made sense to push forward whilst the enemy was still in retreat and continue to attack them before they got the chance to regroup in any numbers. In particular, if the Arch-demon did have any sense about what was happening on the surface and the political make-up of the nation, it would have been strategically beneficial to take out Denerim as soon as possible (which is what Andoral did with Antiva in the 4th Blight). Instead the darkspawn army got as far as Lothering and then stopped whilst the enemy (Grey Wardens) were able to move around gathering their forces. Even if initially it was trying to fool the surfacers there wasn't a Blight, once the Wardens started to gather an army, it should have been clear this strategy wasn't working and it needed to attack before they gained further strength. Actually, what I think drives the Arch-demon in any Blight is the location of the Grey Wardens because they are the only minds that it can sense. This could also be why the darkspawn remain a constant threat in the Anderfels because they are drawn there by the Warden HQ at Weisshauppt. What probably puzzled Urthemiel was the small number of enemies that it could sense within Ferelden after the majority died at Ostagar, although there was a much bigger presence over on the border with Orlais. It had the darkspawn follow the two Wardens to Lothering but as they moved around a bit after that, this confused the Arch-demon so it told its forces to remain in Lothering. Meanwhile it moved across through the Deep Roads towards where it sensed another group of Grey Wardens on the surface, which was the group on the border. This would account for why we encounter it in the Deep Roads not long after leaving Orzammar, in the Dead Trenches at Bownammer. Funnily enough, this would mean that Loghain refusing them entry probably did help delay the emergence of the Arch-demon, allowing the Hero to mobilize their forces before it did. Had it emerged straight after Ostagar with the rest of its forces, Ferelden would have been overrun fairly quickly as even if someone had managed to strike at the Arch-demon it would simply have regenerated because at that time no one in Ferelden, not even the two Grey Wardens, knew that it had to be one of them that had to strike the killing blow. |
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Post by colfoley on Dec 10, 2021 10:59:59 GMT
Again, I think that was deliberate on the Archdemon’s part. Ferelden only had a small number of Wardens and had never experienced a Blight to the extent of other nations, so the people there weren’t truly ready to deal with such a crisis. Oh no, I think it was actually very cunning. Allowing Ferelden to doubt whether this was a true Blight kept the country from mobilizing its defences as it should have; instead, Loghain focused his efforts on fighting a civil war and bringing the nobles into line. And this strategy nearly worked. Had it not been for Flemeth and the HoF, Ferelden would have been completely destroyed by the darkspawn My read on the situation is the same as yours, I think the Archdemon was trying to play the long game...which is ironic that it ended up being the shortest Blight in history So what you are suggesting is that Urthemiel was a much smarter Arch-demon than the rest of them. This is a possibility, although my comments were based on an analysis of the behaviour of Arch-demons during previous Blights. However, it strikes me that deliberately delaying the offensive after Ostagar actually worked against him. The darkspawn had inflicted a massive blow on the surfacers, whilst only suffering minor damage to their numbers. It made sense to push forward whilst the enemy was still in retreat and continue to attack them before they got the chance to regroup in any numbers. In particular, if the Arch-demon did have any sense about what was happening on the surface and the political make-up of the nation, it would have been strategically beneficial to take out Denerim as soon as possible (which is what Andoral did with Antiva in the 4th Blight). Instead the darkspawn army got as far as Lothering and then stopped whilst the enemy (Grey Wardens) were able to move around gathering their forces. Even if initially it was trying to fool the surfacers there wasn't a Blight, once the Wardens started to gather an army, it should have been clear this strategy wasn't working and it needed to attack before they gained further strength. Actually, what I think drives the Arch-demon in any Blight is the location of the Grey Wardens because they are the only minds that it can sense. This could also be why the darkspawn remain a constant threat in the Anderfels because they are drawn there by the Warden HQ at Weisshauppt. What probably puzzled Urthemiel was the small number of enemies that it could sense within Ferelden after the majority died at Ostagar, although there was a much bigger presence over on the border with Orlais. It had the darkspawn follow the two Wardens to Lothering but as they moved around a bit after that, this confused the Arch-demon so it told its forces to remain in Lothering. Meanwhile it moved across through the Deep Roads towards where it sensed another group of Grey Wardens on the surface, which was the group on the border. This would account for why we encounter it in the Deep Roads not long after leaving Orzammar, in the Dead Trenches at Bownammer. Funnily enough, this would mean that Loghain refusing them entry probably did help delay the emergence of the Arch-demon, allowing the Hero to mobilize their forces before it did. Had it emerged straight after Ostagar with the rest of its forces, Ferelden would have been overrun fairly quickly as even if someone had managed to strike at the Arch-demon it would simply have regenerated because at that time no one in Ferelden, not even the two Grey Wardens, knew that it had to be one of them that had to strike the killing blow. 1. I don't think Urthemial was particularly smarter then any of the others. After all it is a bit of a thing within the franchise that an Archdemon leading a Blight super charges the intelligence of the Darkspawn under their command. Not to any terrific degree of course but the usage of better weapons over pure cludgels and coordinated battle tactics. So they have some level of intelligence about them. Though the bigger issue with this whole thing though is if the Darkspawn/ Archdemons have some sort of genetic memory going back wards. I think that has been implied somewhere but I cannot quote it so cannot be sure and such a memory would be a good explanation for why Urthemiel finall decided to change tactics. 2. Though on the rest you are certainly right which I do find very ironic if the theory has any basis in fact that Urthemial changing up their tactics, while might have been beneficial in the past, was the exact wrong thing to do becaue it gave the HOF time to solve the political drama. Of which I do kind of doubt Urthemiel was to aware of. Intelligent yes, spies, no.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Cyberstrike on Dec 10, 2021 18:17:09 GMT
So there’s a timeskip implied by the recently released short story where it says that an event taking place in 9:22 Dragon is 30 years in the past. By implication, the present year is 9:52 Dragon. That will have meant that 8 years have passed between the events of Trespasser in 9:44. EDIT: For perspective, that’s 22 years since the Fifth Blight in DAO! So I started thinking about what events we could hear about in the world in that time jump. I’m sort of hoping they advance some things beyond the quantum void they’ve been left in. To not interfere with people’s choices, it seems like BioWare prefers to leave things in a static state despite years passing. I don’t think that’s a good impulse as it does leave the world feeling a bit, well, static. The big example that springs to my mind is Ferelden’s succession, where the situation has been static after a decade. I realize the questionable fertility of all involved, but it would be a way to involve Ferelden’s monarch at a later date if the timeline gets far enough. Say for example, we hear that Ferelden now has a Prince/Princess. The child’s parentage could still be Alistair/Cousland, Alistair/Anora, Cousland/Anora, or one of the lone monarchs being pressured to marry. The child would always have the same name and appearance (blonde since Alistair or Anora are always involved) for the sake of future involvement. What would you like to hear about progressing in this time, how the world of Thedas has changed?
At some point I've always thought BioWare was always going to have to do a massive time jump to get out from under the amount of player choices that they've created so they can tell a damn story without having to create a 1000 different dialogue saying what the race/gender/sexuality/love interest/class/alignment was the Warden, the Champion, and the Inquisitor were that would take more time and resources to create then creating a "better game with a great story and dialogue" which is what everybody says that they want instead of wasting time on lore and continuity, which is why the whole storyline with Morrigan, her son and Flemeth was such an anti-climatic waste of time. Between who was the boy's father, did he have the soul of an old god or not, and what was Flemeth's interest in him were, if he even existed at all, and so on. The character was created as a "get out of story jail" free card and he had about as much impact as what weapon the Warden, the Champion, and the Inquisitor used in their final battles. Which is too say NONE!
BioWare should focus on making DA4 the best game that they can and not worry about old plot threads that aren't going to be in the final game or any DLC.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 10, 2021 18:40:00 GMT
BioWare should focus on making DA4 the best game that they can and not worry about old plot threads that aren't going to be in the final game or any DLC. Then don't leave unresolved plot threads from game to game; that would fix it. Setting the next game in a completely different part of Thedas would have solved most of their problems because most of the characters in the previous three were based in the south and so had no business being involved in a story set up north. However, they then ruined this with plot threads left open at the end of DAI: the Grey Wardens is one that springs to mind, plus they chose to send the survivor from the Fade up north to Warden HQ instead of keeping them back down south to help rebuild the southern Wardens/deal with Corypheus, which would have eliminated the need for explaining the presence/absence in the next game, assuming we are going to Weisshaupt, which seems likely. Also, the vague reason they used for explaining the absence of the Hero from the Warden problems and then weren't consistent in leaving them in the West no matter who they romanced. Then of course, there is the ridiculous confrontation with Solas in Trespasser, which was about the worst way possible to remove the Inquisitor from the picture, and the fact that despite being either disbanded or reduced to being the Divine's private army, the Inquisition is still active across Thedas, including up north (according to both comics and short stories). Plus, they seem likely to want to involve Varric in some way, judging by him voicing the trailer last year and uttering the words "I've got your back", when he has absolutely no reason to be up north either. |
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Post by colfoley on Dec 10, 2021 19:17:34 GMT
There is a difference between plot threads and choices. And a difference between major and minor plot threade in the first place. It's the reason for such a big geographic move as well as the time skip. Yes, the big plot lines and those teased at the end of Inquisition are going to be tied up, Solas, the Wardens, the Qunari but now we don't have to program in certain extraneous details.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 10, 2021 20:01:32 GMT
now we don't have to program in certain extraneous details. Except they did link those plot threads to individual choices: who was sent to Weisshauppt; how the Inquisitor left things with Solas - do they want to kill or redeem him. This latter one irritated me at the time, since no one can redeem Solas but himself but it is a fatuous choice if they don't bring it into play some way next game and it is recorded in the Keep. Yet, if I am playing a new PC, I don't want them to be bound by that decision so what was the point of it? Why didn't they just go for a clean break? So Solas maybe saved them but didn't tell them his plan or maybe he never spoke with them at all. The Inquisitor goes into semi-retirement down south oblivious of the future danger to the world. The Inquisition has been disbanded or reduced to a private army, so that accounts for why they are no longer involved with affairs in wider Thedas. Nobody, apart from Dorian, who has a legitimate reason to be in Tevinter, need be encountered from previous games. That would have solved so many problems and left the way clear to just tell the new story but instead it is the writing team on Dragon Age who insist on carrying over choices and characters from previous games. |
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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Post by Sharable Horizon on Dec 10, 2021 20:06:34 GMT
Shit, if I was Solas, functionally immortal and convinced that I’d made a mistake by letting his old friend Le inquisitor know that I was going to blow up the world again to bring Thedas back to how it should be, I’d just wait 100 years before I started my ritual. The fact that he started his ritual virtually straight away from his perspective means that either;
A) He’s desperate because he wants the world of his people returned right the fuck now and he will stop at nothing to do it.
B )He’s desperate because Thedas is running out of time, cut off from its natural state of ‘magic in the wind’ and it’s either now or never.
Judging by virtually every piece of released concept art we’ve seen so far features the blight consuming everything, my money’s on option B. By ancient elven standards, eight years is a rush job.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 10, 2021 20:28:06 GMT
now we don't have to program in certain extraneous details. Except they did link those plot threads to individual choices: who was sent to Weisshauppt; how the Inquisitor left things with Solas - do they want to kill or redeem him. This latter one irritated me at the time, since no one can redeem Solas but himself but it is a fatuous choice if they don't bring it into play some way next game and it is recorded in the Keep. Yet, if I am playing a new PC, I don't want them to be bound by that decision so what was the point of it? Why didn't they just go for a clean break? So Solas maybe saved them but didn't tell them his plan or maybe he never spoke with them at all. The Inquisitor goes into semi-retirement down south oblivious of the future danger to the world. The Inquisition has been disbanded or reduced to a private army, so that accounts for why they are no longer involved with affairs in wider Thedas. Nobody, apart from Dorian, who has a legitimate reason to be in Tevinter, need be encountered from previous games. That would have solved so many problems and left the way clear to just tell the new story but instead it is the writing team on Dragon Age who insist on carrying over choices and characters from previous games. 1. That choice isn't going to mean much by the time we get to 9:52. No one will remember who we sent and indeed if we sent Hawk they return to Kirkwall anyways. The slide with them getting to the Warden area was to setup what's going on in DA4 with the Wardens. An indication that will be paid off in the marketing. 2. Similarly the choice at the end of Tresspasser was as meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Indeed it's a bit charitable to call it a choice given the Inquisitors dialogue has little to do with redemption, 'you don't have to destroy this world, I'll prove it to you'. Which can be done as easily behind a desk in Halam'shiral as the frontlines of Tevinter. The new protag isn't going to be bound to it, indeed even if the Inquisitor was returning in DA4 as the protag it strikes me as really problematic to make them bound to it either. Only reason that 'choice' exists is to set up the flavor of the next game. |
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Post by smilesja on Dec 11, 2021 5:07:21 GMT
Shit, if I was Solas, functionally immortal and convinced that I’d made a mistake by letting his old friend Le inquisitor know that I was going to blow up the world again to bring Thedas back to how it should be, I’d just wait 100 years before I started my ritual. The fact that he started his ritual virtually straight away from his perspective means that either; A) He’s desperate because he wants the world of his people returned right the fuck now and he will stop at nothing to do it. B )He’s desperate because Thedas is running out of time, cut off from its natural state of ‘magic in the wind’ and it’s either now or never. Judging by virtually every piece of released concept art we’ve seen so far features the blight consuming everything, my money’s on option B. By ancient elven standards, eight years is a rush job. Well to be fair, Solas didn't tell the Inquisitor how he was going to blow up the world.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 11, 2021 8:28:57 GMT
The new protag isn't going to be bound to it, indeed even if the Inquisitor was returning in DA4 as the protag it strikes me as really problematic to make them bound to it either. Only reason that 'choice' exists is to set up the flavor of the next game.I fail to see how it sets up any flavour if it is going to have no relevance to the next game. We already knew Solas was the Dread Wolf from the final scene in the main game, that the orb used by Corypheus originally belonged to him and that he had given it to Corypheus. We also knew he had killed Flemeth and apparently absorbed at least some of her power that was going to make him a far more challenging person next game. He was clearly up to something and that was the hook and link into the next game. It would be for the new PC to find out what. That was enough to get me interested. So why the prolonged trailer that was the interview with Solas at the end of Trespasser? Apart from making the Inquisitor aware of things we already knew? What was the point if they weren't returning as the protagonist? Why give a dialogue option that gave the illusion of choice that would affect their future attitude to Solas if it was not going to be used in some way the next game? The decision about the Inquisition was also an illusion since it has been shown to still be active in much the same way as it always was outside of the southern nations, with the Inquisitor apparently in charge. All we have dispensed with is paying for a large standing army and several, often remote, Keeps, which would never have been helpful against Solas. Actually the wording attached to the decision did say as much because it was clear something was going to continue even if we did disband because otherwise why the information about possible enemy agents infiltrating the organisation? Trespasser could have played out exactly as it did up until the point where we defeat the Saraabas; we could then have either stepped through the next eluvian and found ourselves back outside the network or stepped through to see Solas confronting the Viddasala and then leaving through the eluvian, after which we again try to follow but find ourselves outside the network. Then we return to either disband or put the Inquisition under the control of the Divine, thus removing the Inquisitor and the organisation as a major force in wider Thedas. That would actually have left a bigger mystery as the hook for DA4 with no unwanted baggage from the previous games. |
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Post by colfoley on Dec 11, 2021 9:04:49 GMT
The new protag isn't going to be bound to it, indeed even if the Inquisitor was returning in DA4 as the protag it strikes me as really problematic to make them bound to it either. Only reason that 'choice' exists is to set up the flavor of the next game.I fail to see how it sets up any flavour if it is going to have no relevance to the next game. We already knew Solas was the Dread Wolf from the final scene in the main game, that the orb used by Corypheus originally belonged to him and that he had given it to Corypheus. We also knew he had killed Flemeth and apparently absorbed at least some of her power that was going to make him a far more challenging person next game. He was clearly up to something and that was the hook and link into the next game. It would be for the new PC to find out what. That was enough to get me interested. So why the prolonged trailer that was the interview with Solas at the end of Trespasser? Apart from making the Inquisitor aware of things we already knew? What was the point if they weren't returning as the protagonist? Why give a dialogue option that gave the illusion of choice that would affect their future attitude to Solas if it was not going to be used in some way the next game? The decision about the Inquisition was also an illusion since it has been shown to still be active in much the same way as it always was outside of the southern nations, with the Inquisitor apparently in charge. All we have dispensed with is paying for a large standing army and several, often remote, Keeps, which would never have been helpful against Solas. Actually the wording attached to the decision did say as much because it was clear something was going to continue even if we did disband because otherwise why the information about possible enemy agents infiltrating the organisation? Trespasser could have played out exactly as it did up until the point where we defeat the Saraabas; we could then have either stepped through the next eluvian and found ourselves back outside the network or stepped through to see Solas confronting the Viddasala and then leaving through the eluvian, after which we again try to follow but find ourselves outside the network. Then we return to either disband or put the Inquisition under the control of the Divine, thus removing the Inquisitor and the organisation as a major force in wider Thedas. That would actually have left a bigger mystery as the hook for DA4 with no unwanted baggage from the previous games. the flavor is the relevance. It clues us in on the relevant theme. |
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 11, 2021 9:56:34 GMT
the flavor is the relevance. It clues us in on the relevant theme. Which is? Is there anything in that conversation with Solas, not tied specifically to the person of the Inquisitor, that isn't conveyed in that short trailer this time last year? - There is always someone trying to break the world.
- It is time for a new hero to deal with the current threat(s)
- We are going to be confronted by the usual suspects: demons, dragons, darkspawn
- The major threat (so far identified) is the Dread Wolf (Solas). Even if you haven't played Trespasser, or DAI for that matter, I think it is possible to make the connection between previous breakers of the world and what the Dread Wolf's intentions are currently.
Any other themes are specific to his link with the Inquisitor or something the new PC is going to have to discover for themselves in the course of the game. If the latter, then the conversation with the Inquisitor was unnecessary, if the former then the Inquisitor is integral to that theme playing out.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 11, 2021 10:37:29 GMT
the flavor is the relevance. It clues us in on the relevant theme. Which is? Is there anything in that conversation with Solas, not tied specifically to the person of the Inquisitor, that isn't conveyed in that short trailer this time last year? - There is always someone trying to break the world.
- It is time for a new hero to deal with the current threat(s)
- We are going to be confronted by the usual suspects: demons, dragons, darkspawn
- The major threat (so far identified) is the Dread Wolf (Solas). Even if you haven't played Trespasser, or DAI for that matter, I think it is possible to make the connection between previous breakers of the world and what the Dread Wolf's intentions are currently.
Any other themes are specific to his link with the Inquisitor or something the new PC is going to have to discover for themselves in the course of the game. If the latter, then the conversation with the Inquisitor was unnecessary, if the former then the Inquisitor is integral to that theme playing out. Now the time for a new hero to deal with the world's problems was more handled in the post credits scene for Tresspasser in the, not the conversation with Solas per se. And no, they aren't. The question proposed at the end of Tresspasser is Solas redeamable. Which also likely suggests that the idea of redemption could be a through thread through all of Dragon Age 4 its plots and subplots. Which the player will get to determine through the interactions their own answer to that particular question. That does not need the Inquisitor's presence there because protagonists are, by virtue of good writing, uniquely suited to taking on their antagonists in any particular work this sets up great protgonist antagonist dynamics which drives the plot forward. And the Inquisitor is not really well suited for either answer to that question. 1. The Inquisitor is not well suited to defeat Solas. Solas spent a year within the Inquisitor's inner circle and got to know her, tactics, temperment, etc. Plus with the added bonus that Solas knew he was going to betray them, not the other way around. This gives him a hell of a leg up, which has been established quite a bit at this point. 2. The Inquisitor is not well equipped to redeam Solas. Given that the Inquisitor was set up as a big good religious counter point to Corypheus that lacks almost all of the ability to go about and redeam Solas. They were uniquely suited to be an antagonist for Corypheus, not the other way around.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 11, 2021 12:06:09 GMT
1. The Inquisitor is not well suited to defeat Solas. Solas spent a year within the Inquisitor's inner circle and got to know her, tactics, temperment, etc. Plus with the added bonus that Solas knew he was going to betray them, not the other way around. This gives him a hell of a leg up, which has been established quite a bit at this point. 2. The Inquisitor is not well equipped to redeam Solas. Given that the Inquisitor was set up as a big good religious counter point to Corypheus that lacks almost all of the ability to go about and redeam Solas. They were uniquely suited to be an antagonist for Corypheus, not the other way around. I wasn't making an argument for the Inquisitor being the best person to deal with Solas or not; I was purely arguing against the idea that Trespasser was necessary to set up theme for the next game. If the theme is one of possible redemption, that will be the case regardless of whether the Inquisitor thinks Solas is redeemable or not. Remember some people hate Solas' guts and the confrontation with him in Trespasser consequently had no hint of possible redemption in it. One of the problems I have with the subsequent story in Tevinter Nights is that Solas continuing to apologise to the Inquisitor and feel regret for what he must do is entirely based on the idea that he had respect for them. This ignores all those players for whom this was not the case, particularly those where the feeling of animosity was mutual. Their experience of Solas must necessarily be factored in owing to including that confrontation in Trespasser, which would not have been the case otherwise. I think we are agreed, though, that any decisions made by the Inquisitor in Trespasser are going to be irrelevant going forward unless they decide to introduce a major plot branch that revolves around the decision whether or not to disband the Inquisition. You will recall we were told the pros and cons for the choice revolved around have more resources to deal with the problem but greater possibility of Solas infiltrating and discovering what you are doing as against less resources but also lesser likelihood of Solas getting wind of your plans. So there is the possibility that they may have branching paths leading to the same destination that play out differently according to these criteria. As for the decision to redeem/prove you wrong (which as you say are not the same thing) or stop him at any costs declaration, maybe that may influence the dialogue we have with the representatives of the Inquisition. So on the "redeem" path they may suggest to our PC that it may still be possible to dissuade him from his plan, whilst on the "stop him" path they will not. Alternatively, if Solas respected the Inquisitor who said they would prove him wrong, then maybe that may make him more receptive to listening to alternatives to his plan from the new PC. |
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Post by garrusfan1 on Dec 11, 2021 13:41:23 GMT
Personally I think the "redemption" path for Solas was really for people that liked Solas and the writers way of making it so those people wouldn't feel like their favorite character was completely evil. Afterall if your character just made out with him it would be pretty rough if he then became your mortal enemy. Besides the next protaginist won't be bound by the inquisitors decision on that front so it was mainly to soften the blow for solas fans in my opinion.
Also yes I do think Solas is evil. If he is willing to kill the majority of thedas to bring back "his" world he is evil even if he feels bad about it. In truth that might make it even worse since he knows it is the wrong thing to do and he is gonna do it anyways. Solas was never my favorite character but I did like him so I am not someone who hated him. But the man is evil without a doubt.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 11, 2021 15:34:03 GMT
Also yes I do think Solas is evil. If he is willing to kill the majority of thedas to bring back "his" world he is evil even if he feels bad about it. In truth that might make it even worse since he knows it is the wrong thing to do and he is gonna do it anyways. Solas was never my favorite character but I did like him so I am not someone who hated him. But the man is evil without a doubt. Which is why I've always maintained that the only person who can redeem Solas is himself. I also felt that no matter how much of a friend/lover he was previously, my focus was always going to be on saving my world before any concerns about "saving our friend from himself". Personally I think the "redemption" path for Solas was really for people that liked Solas and the writers way of making it so those people wouldn't feel like their favorite character was completely evil. Afterall if your character just made out with him it would be pretty rough if he then became your mortal enemy. Or maybe because several of the writers on the game, including PW, seem very invested in the Solas romance. I romanced Solas on my first run but, to be honest, personally it just confirmed the betrayal of the main game. I thought he was pretty heartless in saying that they didn't do anything she didn't want to do, when at the time she wasn't in possession of all the facts about him. Bearing in mind that he didn't know that defeating Corypheus would destroy his orb, he was romancing her in full knowledge that he intended destroying her world on recovering it and her along with it. So from a player point of view I had no problem that he was now my mortal enemy. However, I made her remain pathetically devoted to him and determined to save him despite everything simply so I had the option of that as a a world state. I could revise my opinion, though, and change it in the Keep so that she is now his most fervent opponent. It depends on whether I want to use the Solas romance world state for my first run in the new game or stick with my second run from DAI, my male Lavellan who saw Solas as his friend but now feels totally betrayed. |
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Dec 13, 2021 20:45:23 GMT
Including Varric and Dorian, what characters can you see returning, and how do you think that 8 year time-skip affected them? Personally, I've been thinking about Sera. The theme of "powerlessness" and possible subterfuge connects with the Red Jennies. It'd be interesting to see a more mature Sera - whatever they may look like. I think one thing that would make Sera grow up is her organization becoming bigger and more notable than she anticipated. Sera cares about her friends, and while she operates rather nonchalantly, I could see her having to take the reign if shit starts hitting the fan, at least in order to protect her friends. Or, maybe she became even more chaotic in those 8 years.  |
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Dec 13, 2021 20:55:10 GMT
Including Varric and Dorian, what characters can you see returning, and how do you think that 8 year time-skip affected them? Personally, I've been thinking about Sera. The theme of "powerlessness" and possible subterfuge connects with the Red Jennies. It'd be interesting to see a more mature Sera - whatever they may look like. I think one thing that would make Sera grow up is her organization becoming bigger and more notable than she anticipated. Sera cares about her friends, and while she operates rather nonchalantly, I could see her having to take the reign if shit starts hitting the fan, at least in order to protect her friends. Or, maybe she became even more chaotic in those 8 years. I'd love to see Sera again (may as well throw in my other favourite, Isabela, while we're at it) and how she may have changed. She was a child during the Fifth Blight, right? So she'd be late twenties or older by the time DA4 arrives (assuming we're right about the time skip). Also think there is a chance of seeing Divine Victoria (whoever that may be), careworn and more considered than when we saw them in Trespasser.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Dec 13, 2021 21:56:04 GMT
Including Varric and Dorian, what characters can you see returning, and how do you think that 8 year time-skip affected them? Personally, I've been thinking about Sera. The theme of "powerlessness" and possible subterfuge connects with the Red Jennies. It'd be interesting to see a more mature Sera - whatever they may look like. I think one thing that would make Sera grow up is her organization becoming bigger and more notable than she anticipated. Sera cares about her friends, and while she operates rather nonchalantly, I could see her having to take the reign if shit starts hitting the fan, at least in order to protect her friends. Or, maybe she became even more chaotic in those 8 years. Well assuming Cassandra wasn't divine I could see her relaxing with the inquisitor if they are romancing or rebuilding the seekers. I do not think we will see her though. Varric should be running kirkwall but I give it a 50/50 chance that he is a companion again. If he is a companion again then he better be romancable BECAUSE HE DESERVES BETTER THEN BIANCA! ahem
Dorian almost has to be in the next game as an advisor or something since he will be the only companion from a former game that has a real reason to be in tevinter. Most likely as an advisor for our character or something similar. I would like it acknowledged if Dorian romanced the inquisitor. Nothing huge just something in conversation and hopefully a slide at the end that said they finally got together again and spent their lives together.
Leliana should not be in the game. I love her but she has been in all three games and has no reason to be in tevinter as Solas knows all about her and she might be the Divine.
Joshephine could get a small cameo but I don't think so. Besides she is running a trading business. Would like it refrenced is she is the inquisitor's LI.
Cullen- Absolutely no reason to be in the game. He is either dealing with the effects of lyrium addiction or is running a home for old templars or married to the inquisitor and again Solas knows who he is and how he thinks and Cullen is a well known figure and thus can't really hide.
Solas will be a big part of the game. Either he will be dealt with early on or we will find out his crazy idea is something that has to be done or something like that. My thoughts at least.
Blackwall should not be in the game either as he is either a warden,righting wrongs, or with the inquisitor if he is the LI.
Cole- Should not be in the game and is either in the fade or stole Krems girl
Iron bull- Should not be in the game. He is either dead or a mercenary and would have no interest in joining the Tevinter cause even if he isn't a qunari anymore. If the inquisitor is in a romance with him they should be together.
Sera- As she is incredibly afraid of magic I don't see why she would be in tevinter but they could have her leading the red jennies or if she romanced the inquistor she should be with her. I do not think she should be in the game.
I would love to see some of the DA2 cast again but only if it makes sense and if they are romancing hawk to have it recognized.
Maybe see Sten or Zevran from DAO. I really don't want to see morrigan again but we likely will. We won't see shale again but I wish we would as she was awesome. Ogrhen should be dead by now either from the calling,ruined liver,or dying in battle. Even if he isn't dead he will be too old to fight and should not be in the next DA game. Wynne is dead if I remember right so we shouldn't see her again. Nor alistar or loghain either. Dog would be ancient by this point so he shouldn't be seen either.
Scout harding should be in the game and be a love interest as she is perfect!
Hawk should not be in the game as he deserves to rest with his LI. Plus I see absolutely no reason to have him in Tevinter Again would like a slide at the end of game saying that he got his happily ever after.
Finally the inquisitor himself should not be in the game but should and definetly be refrenced and possibly a cameo and get a slide at the end of the game. Or he will come in to deal with some problem like Hawk did in DAI.
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Post by GalentheYounger on Dec 13, 2021 22:09:58 GMT
Including Varric and Dorian, what characters can you see returning, and how do you think that 8 year time-skip affected them? Personally, I've been thinking about Sera. The theme of "powerlessness" and possible subterfuge connects with the Red Jennies. It'd be interesting to see a more mature Sera - whatever they may look like. I think one thing that would make Sera grow up is her organization becoming bigger and more notable than she anticipated. Sera cares about her friends, and while she operates rather nonchalantly, I could see her having to take the reign if shit starts hitting the fan, at least in order to protect her friends. Or, maybe she became even more chaotic in those 8 years. Well assuming Cassandra wasn't divine I could see her relaxing with the inquisitor if they are romancing or rebuilding the seekers. I do not think we will see her though. Varric should be running kirkwall but I give it a 50/50 chance that he is a companion again. If he is a companion again then he better be romancable BECAUSE HE DESERVES BETTER THEN BIANCA! ahem
Dorian almost has to be in the next game as an advisor or something since he will be the only companion from a former game that has a real reason to be in tevinter. Most likely as an advisor for our character or something similar. I would like it acknowledged if Dorian romanced the inquisitor. Nothing huge just something in conversation and hopefully a slide at the end that said they finally got together again and spent their lives together.
Leliana should not be in the game. I love her but she has been in all three games and has no reason to be in tevinter as Solas knows all about her and she might be the Divine.
Joshephine could get a small cameo but I don't think so. Besides she is running a trading business. Would like it refrenced is she is the inquisitor's LI.
Cullen- Absolutely no reason to be in the game. He is either dealing with the effects of lyrium addiction or is running a home for old templars or married to the inquisitor and again Solas knows who he is and how he thinks and Cullen is a well known figure and thus can't really hide.
Solas will be a big part of the game. Either he will be dealt with early on or we will find out his crazy idea is something that has to be done or something like that. My thoughts at least.
Blackwall should not be in the game either as he is either a warden,righting wrongs, or with the inquisitor if he is the LI.
Cole- Should not be in the game and is either in the fade or stole Krems girl
Iron bull- Should not be in the game. He is either dead or a mercenary and would have no interest in joining the Tevinter cause even if he isn't a qunari anymore. If the inquisitor is in a romance with him they should be together.
Sera- As she is incredibly afraid of magic I don't see why she would be in tevinter but they could have her leading the red jennies or if she romanced the inquistor she should be with her. I do not think she should be in the game.
I would love to see some of the DA2 cast again but only if it makes sense and if they are romancing hawk to have it recognized.
Maybe see Sten or Zevran from DAO. I really don't want to see morrigan again but we likely will. We won't see shale again but I wish we would as she was awesome. Ogrhen should be dead by now either from the calling,ruined liver,or dying in battle. Even if he isn't dead he will be too old to fight and should not be in the next DA game. Wynne is dead if I remember right so we shouldn't see her again. Nor alistar or loghain either. Dog would be ancient by this point so he shouldn't be seen either.
Scout harding should be in the game and be a love interest as she is perfect!
Hawk should not be in the game as he deserves to rest with his LI. Plus I see absolutely no reason to have him in Tevinter Again would like a slide at the end of game saying that he got his happily ever after.
Finally the inquisitor himself should not be in the game but should and definetly be refrenced and possibly a cameo and get a slide at the end of the game. Or he will come in to deal with some problem like Hawk did in DAI.
I think there is an extremely solid chance of Fenris showing up. I believe there were hints thrown around that he would be influenced by Solas or something. But yeah he has a deep investment in removing tevinter, the slavery there, etc. I think Fenris will be back in some capacity, but I don't think he will be a companion. Maybe somebody that the new protag can save, etc.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 14, 2021 9:17:32 GMT
I'm not so sure we will see Sera again but I think there is a distinct possibility (from reading the Wigmaker Job) that the Jennies are active in Tevinter. So we could well meet someone who knows Sera, although I think that on the whole one Jenny Cell is independent from the others and thus does not necessarily know the members in other parts of Thedas. So meeting another Red Jenny, yes, Sera, no.
Dorian is pretty much a given but as a contact/advisor, not a companion. He has been cropping up in both the comics and Tevinter Nights, the writers seemed pretty determined to send him back to Tevinter at the end of the main game and he always becomes a Magister, no matter what happens in DAI. There is also a good chance we will meet Maevaris as well but, again, I don't think she would be a permanent companion; maybe a temporary one for certain quests. Still, if we are going to have a Magister/Lucerni companion I do think it is more likely to be Maevaris than Dorian. However, given both their level of expertise, for either to be a companion it would have to be at a later stage, which is why I feel a temporary companion for a specific quest or quests would be more likely (and believable).
I really hope Varric isn't involved in a major way, certainly not as a companion. He is meant to be running Kirkwall and so has no real business to be up north. To my mind his story is done. However, he does have a strong connection with both Maevaris and Dorian and was mentioned in Tevinter Nights as a contact for the Inquisition in Kirkwall, so could make an appearance as an ally, having come north for some reason. For example, maybe they decide the only way to send messages is personally because every other means is suspect. Or may be we just hear his voice over Dorian's communication crystal, which would be less of a drain on resources than having to animate his avatar. If he is running a hub for information gathering and giving out quests, that could explain the "I've got your back", without him being involved in the action.
Leliana has been pensioned off. Not only can she be the Divine but it specifically says at the end of Trespasser that she has been training up Harding and Charter to replace her. So we could see either of them. Charter doesn't seem to get involved in the action in either the comics or Tevinter Nights but does seem more to be the Spymaster/contact, so that would suggest that Harding would be the more likely of the two of them to be involved with our new PC, quite possibly as a companion.
Cassandra might turn up if we end up in the Hunterhorn Mountains and there was a lot of concept art showing snowy mountains around a dwarven settlement. Kal Sharok is under the eastern extremity of this range and I fancy we are going to visit there at some point, so Cass could make a cameo appearance, possibly asking us to take on one of her new Seekers as a companion, which would be great if they are given proper Seeker powers and not simply as pseudo Templar as before. However, I doubt Cassandra would make anything other than a brief cameo appearance.
Cullen has no reason to be in the north and has variable outcomes in DAI/Trespasser, including being dead, so not likely to see him. Ditto Blackwall and Iron Bull. Likely to warrant a codex at best. Cole could appear but his completely different outcomes at the end of Trespasser would seem to mitigate against this. Vivienne has no reason to appear as she is either Divine or Grand Enchanter in the south, so far too tied up in the political scene down there.
Josephine could make a cameo appearance, particularly if we go to Antiva at some point and possibly act as a local advisor if we do. Zevran could also be seen for the same reason, except he is not on good terms with the Crows and could be either dead or out west with the Hero, so I think it is extremely unlikely.
As for companions from earlier games, Isabella is the most likely and could even be providing us with a floating base but would then act as a contact, not a companion. Morrigan could turn up late on as part of the main plot because of her connection with Flemeth/Mythal and, depending if they want to make it relevant, having possibly drunk from the Well of Sorrows.
I would have ruled out Fenris owing to the possibility of him being dead and being left deep in the south at the end of the comic series. However, with the potential time skip and the fact he was revived for the comics, it is possible we may see him again. I must admit that with an ancient elven mage threatening the world, it would be rather odd if Fenris wasn't getting involved in the fight against him. Most likely though he would appear in a cameo role or as a temporary companion for a specific quest, probably not part of the main plot so they could factor in him not being alive in some world states.
If characters can still return when possibly dead then another possibility is Shale, again as a temporary companion for a specific side quest or simply a cameo role.
Any of those characters who became Grey Wardens could make an appearance if we go to Weisshauppt but it hardly seems necessary, particularly with the time skip. I feel they should be left/returned down south and then give us some totally new Wardens to interact with. We already have 3 possibilities: Evka (most likely); Antoine and Davrin (seems likely since they have already identified his VA).
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