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Post by hulluliini on Jan 24, 2022 14:01:30 GMT
Procedural generation might be a deal breaker for me, though I find it really hard to see anything as a real deal breaker. I would still play it and be miserable afterwards if there was some really big design flaw. I do have to as, Procedural generation of what?  You can generate procedurally a lot of stuff is what I mean. You know those horrible plans they had for Andromeda with procedurally generated planets/content... I guess for inventory randomization and such it works.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Jan 24, 2022 14:07:07 GMT
I do have to as, Procedural generation of what?  You can generate procedurally a lot of stuff is what I mean. You know those horrible plans they had for Andromeda with procedurally generated planets/content... I guess for inventory randomization and such it works. One can generate a lot of data procedurally fex. I bet all the planet heightmaps are done such and then hand edited. From what I gather from the data available in MEA these planets would have had small missions on them instead of larger areas to roam... but we'll never know as they were not included in the game. But as such, generating something procedurally does not mean open worlds as such, its just another way to create stuff... its hard to explain kinda 
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Post by hulluliini on Jan 25, 2022 7:45:50 GMT
You know those horrible plans they had for Andromeda with procedurally generated planets/content... I guess for inventory randomization and such it works. One can generate a lot of data procedurally fex. I bet all the planet heightmaps are done such and then hand edited. From what I gather from the data available in MEA these planets would have had small missions on them instead of larger areas to roam... but we'll never know as they were not included in the game. But as such, generating something procedurally does not mean open worlds as such, its just another way to create stuff... its hard to explain kinda  I think what it sometimes refers to is randomization of environments, with zero hand editing afterwards, because then it wouldn't be truly random. If someone generates something procedurally then edits it manually, that's not what I was thinking of. It's still manual work in the end, use computers to do the hard work then humans to give the creative touch. I think the initial idea for ME:A was to skip the manual part completely so that you could have a lot of planets to land on and they would be randomly created for each playthrough and player. Which wouldn't work with ME at all. You know like Noman's Sky and Outer Wilds? That's what I don't like and that's what they were planning to do, whatever the term you want to use.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Jan 25, 2022 8:01:23 GMT
One can generate a lot of data procedurally fex. I bet all the planet heightmaps are done such and then hand edited. From what I gather from the data available in MEA these planets would have had small missions on them instead of larger areas to roam... but we'll never know as they were not included in the game. But as such, generating something procedurally does not mean open worlds as such, its just another way to create stuff... its hard to explain kinda  I think what it sometimes refers to is randomization of environments, with zero hand editing afterwards, because then it wouldn't be truly random. If someone generates something procedurally then edits it manually, that's not what I was thinking of. It's still manual work in the end, use computers to do the hard work then humans to give the creative touch. I think the initial idea for ME:A was to skip the manual part completely so that you could have a lot of planets to land on and they would be randomly created for each playthrough and player. Which wouldn't work with ME at all. You know like Noman's Sky and Outer Wilds? That's what I don't like and that's what they were planning to do, whatever the term you want to use. I dont believe in 100% procedural generation, as in "nobody touches it afterwards" - as there are always things to touch even when you generate the geometry and we are not generating it for the sake of "has to fit small space" like in demoscene 4KB intros for example. In ME1 some of the planets have smoothing in some places, most of them did not (I dont know whats the reason behind this, maybe the amount of geometry was too much for X360 back then) Actually would be ok with generated planets (always the same seed, not randomly generated every time from new seeds) if there was the MEA style planned missions they dropped. Read about the missions etc. here: bsn.boards.net/thread/14800/me-andromeda-cut-contentSome info: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procedural_generation - www.davidepesce.com/2020/02/24/procedural-generation-in-game-development/
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Jan 25, 2022 8:20:40 GMT
Here I think most is generated, but thats a given as its a fractal explorer... And 55 minutes talk about procedural world generation in Path Of Exile: Also PROCJAM: itch.io/jam/procjam2017/entries
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Post by hulluliini on Jan 25, 2022 9:01:02 GMT
I don't know why developers want to give as much content as possible, with quality being secondary. Is that really what most people want? I tend to like games the more I play them over and over and learn all the minute details. That couldn't happen if each playthrough was different. It wouldn't make for a memorable game. I can see it working in multiplayer but not in story-based games.
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Post by damdil on Jan 26, 2022 14:29:26 GMT
I don't know why developers want to give as much content as possible, with quality being secondary. Is that really what most people want? I tend to like games the more I play them over and over and learn all the minute details. That couldn't happen if each playthrough was different. It wouldn't make for a memorable game. I can see it working in multiplayer but not in story-based games. Qft. I can't really tell why nowadays so many AAA-games follow that typical open world formula and what's making it so popular in general.
Concerning a future ME game I think we all have to agree that we're sadly at a point where we can't expect another masterpiece from Bioware anymore with EA sitting in their neck and all but, at best, an enjoyable but not outstanding gaming experience. A personal deal breaker for me would be an Inquisition-like half-assed attempt to please everyone by implementing some elements of the old story elements and characters, while being inconsequent in many ways and also being quite indifferent about what you did in back in Origins. So basically if they want to go with a new cast and story they should go all the way and let the party from the ME trilogy rest completely or the other way around.
I'd personally prefer a story set around Shepard and the rest of the original cast however with the way ME 3 ends and everything this would need writing and effort which imo Bioware isn't capable off anymore. Last but not least there is a chance of like 99% that they'll carry "real life political issues" into the game in a bad way given the trend in the industry atm.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 26, 2022 21:30:29 GMT
I'd personally prefer a story set around Shepard and the rest of the original cast however with the way ME 3 ends and everything this would need writing and effort which imo Bioware isn't capable off anymore. Last but not least there is a chance of like 99% that they'll carry "real life political issues" into the game in a bad way given the trend in the industry atm. I like to see Shepard return. His/her story is not finished. It wouldn't be hard to bring back Shepard. Bioware has their get-out-of-jail-free card when the guy said the details have been lost over time. It happened so long ago. I bet the story told to him is different from the one he told the kid. Then he says, one more story. I like to hear that story. I posted this idea having Shepard return.
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Post by damdil on Jan 26, 2022 22:49:54 GMT
I'd personally prefer a story set around Shepard and the rest of the original cast however with the way ME 3 ends and everything this would need writing and effort which imo Bioware isn't capable off anymore. Last but not least there is a chance of like 99% that they'll carry "real life political issues" into the game in a bad way given the trend in the industry atm. I like to see Shepard return. His/her story is not finished. It wouldn't be hard to bring back Shepard. Bioware has their get-out-of-jail-free card when the guy said the details have been lost over time. It happened so long ago. I bet the story told to him is different from the one he told the kid. Then he says, one more story. I like to hear that story. I posted this idea having Shepard return. You can only imagine how great this would be.  And you wrote this back in 2018, and "already" it seems like there could be a new ME. I tell you the worst would be if the original cast would only get some cameo or being reduced into some quest/base camp npc after all that time. Looking at you, Inquisition.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 27, 2022 0:09:57 GMT
You can only imagine how great this would be.  And you wrote this back in 2018, and "already" it seems like there could be a new ME. I tell you the worst would be if the original cast would only get some cameo or being reduced into some quest/base camp npc after all that time. Looking at you, Inquisition. It wouldn't be hard to explain why some characters would not show. Zaeed, his voice actor, Robin Sachs(RIP), died several years ago. He wouldn't make a return. Look at Jacob. He's going to be a father. I doubt he would show up. He wants to stay with his family. Kasumi wants nothing more to do with big missions. She said as much in ME3 even though she helped with the crucible. Samara would likely remain on Thessia helping the planet rebuild, and to make up for lost time with her daughter. She might have a cameo, if Shepard were to return to the planet. Grunt will likely remain on Tuchanka to rebuild Aralakh Company. He could have a cameo in ME4. Maybe be part of a mission. Legion, Mordin and Thane would not return for obvious reasons. Although it would depend on what those lost details are the guy mentioned. Jack could stay with her students. Or she may feel they can handle things without her for her join Shepard. Miranda could join the roster. Javik might return. At least for part of the game. Garrus, Tali, Liara, A/K would likely return. In the case of A/K, they did become a spectre in ME3. Would the council want them to do spectre stuff? Vega could show up at the beginning than leave to join the N program. Well, at least help rebuild it. edi would not return. It wouldn't be hard for the crewmembers to return. I left Wrex for last. I know he's popular with fans, but to have him around, the genophage has to cured. Did you know he can be alive, if the genophage is sabotaged? I know because I've done it. Haven't tried with the remaster. I would guess he can. How do you keep him alive? Read this post. I would doubt Bioware would have that happen. The genophage is either sabotaged or cured. But again, it depends on what details the guy is referring to. Either way, it wouldn't be hard to have Shepard and some of the characters return.
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Post by Arcian on Jan 27, 2022 12:19:07 GMT
I don't know why developers want to give as much content as possible, with quality being secondary. Is that really what most people want? I tend to like games the more I play them over and over and learn all the minute details. That couldn't happen if each playthrough was different. It wouldn't make for a memorable game. I can see it working in multiplayer but not in story-based games. Qft. I can't really tell why nowadays so many AAA-games follow that typical open world formula and what's making it so popular in general. Because they are more immersive, which is especially important for RPGs, and because modern hardware is powerful enough to allow it. There are also a lot of developers following the Skyrim trend after seeing just how well that game sold.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 27, 2022 14:14:43 GMT
Qft. I can't really tell why nowadays so many AAA-games follow that typical open world formula and what's making it so popular in general. Because they are more immersive, which is especially important for RPGs, and because modern hardware is powerful enough to allow it. There are also a lot of developers following the Skyrim trend after seeing just how well that game sold. It's not really immersive to have to slaughter my way through the same pod of respawning bears (or space bears) over and over each time I want tot travel from Point A to Point B...
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Post by ahglock on Jan 27, 2022 17:17:20 GMT
You can only imagine how great this would be.  And you wrote this back in 2018, and "already" it seems like there could be a new ME. I tell you the worst would be if the original cast would only get some cameo or being reduced into some quest/base camp npc after all that time. Looking at you, Inquisition. It wouldn't be hard to explain why some characters would not show. Zaeed, his voice actor, Robin Sachs(RIP), died several years ago. He wouldn't make a return. Look at Jacob. He's going to be a father. I doubt he would show up. He wants to stay with his family. Kasumi wants nothing more to do with big missions. She said as much in ME3 even though she helped with the crucible. Samara would likely remain on Thessia helping the planet rebuild, and to make up for lost time with her daughter. She might have a cameo, if Shepard were to return to the planet. Grunt will likely remain on Tuchanka to rebuild Aralakh Company. He could have a cameo in ME4. Maybe be part of a mission. Legion, Mordin and Thane would not return for obvious reasons. Although it would depend on what those lost details are the guy mentioned. Jack could stay with her students. Or she may feel they can handle things without her for her join Shepard. Miranda could join the roster. Javik might return. At least for part of the game. Garrus, Tali, Liara, A/K would likely return. In the case of A/K, they did become a spectre in ME3. Would the council want them to do spectre stuff? Vega could show up at the beginning than leave to join the N program. Well, at least help rebuild it. edi would not return. It wouldn't be hard for the crewmembers to return. I left Wrex for last. I know he's popular with fans, but to have him around, the genophage has to cured. Did you know he can be alive, if the genophage is sabotaged? I know because I've done it. Haven't tried with the remaster. I would guess he can. How do you keep him alive? Read this post. I would doubt Bioware would have that happen. The genophage is either sabotaged or cured. But again, it depends on what details the guy is referring to. Either way, it wouldn't be hard to have Shepard and some of the characters return. Even if they make him canonically alive hes now is the leader of all the krogan or whatever, I don't think hed show up.
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Post by ahglock on Jan 27, 2022 17:27:55 GMT
My only deal breakers are
1.if they stick with Ryder and crew and the reviews indicate they feel the same in personality, or if the new crew/protagonist is described as like Ryder I'll pass.
2. If the marketing doesn't focus on why it has a good story/good game-play but instead on whatever is the current trend in virtue signaling is I'll pass until its bargain bin if I get it at all. From my experience if that is what they market not only is it done poorly but the story/game will suck. And then reviewers are even less likely to be honest about it on all sides. If they just happen to have it in without marketing it, not only is the subject handled better but the story has a chance of actually being good.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jan 27, 2022 17:35:32 GMT
That it's an online looter shooter, an MMO style game in general, or a co-op. I want to play the game by myself and not have the game be unbeatable because I don't want to play with other people. If I want to play multiplayer I'll play UNO. To quote Wrex "I don't want to rely on other people and I don't people relying on me."
That is a bigger deal breaker than the game being only in first person perspective with no third person perspective mode switch like The Elder Scrolls, Fallout 3, and Fallout 4 games.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 27, 2022 18:08:59 GMT
Even if they make him canonically alive hes now is the leader of all the krogan or whatever, I don't think hed show up. True, though if Grunt has a cameo, especially if the scene takes place on Tuchanka, it would be hard to avoid seeing Wrex. Unless there's dialogue saying Wrex is doing krogan stuff preventing him from been seen in the game.
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Post by damdil on Jan 27, 2022 21:26:13 GMT
Qft. I can't really tell why nowadays so many AAA-games follow that typical open world formula and what's making it so popular in general. Because they are more immersive, which is especially important for RPGs, and because modern hardware is powerful enough to allow it. There are also a lot of developers following the Skyrim trend after seeing just how well that game sold. I don't think it makes a game more immersive.  But the reason might be simple: How many people have actually finished Skyrim? Maybe 10 or 20% of all who started the game. How many have screwed around in the open world, maybe even having fun simply by letting themselfes sky high by the first giant? Probably most of them. Basically, these open world games let you play around freely and safely and you can achieve something even if you're having 30 minutes or so. You liberate an enemy camp in Far Cry? No problem and probably not that impacting towards your gaming and story progress? You have to stop while playing the Citadel DLC i.e. and jumping back in maybe weeks later will easily alter how you perceived the DLC.
Tldr; I like having 5 custom dungeons with unique items, difficulty and layout more than having 100 with random loot and enemies being adjusted in strength to the player level.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jan 28, 2022 1:57:40 GMT
Because they are more immersive, which is especially important for RPGs, and because modern hardware is powerful enough to allow it. There are also a lot of developers following the Skyrim trend after seeing just how well that game sold. I don't think it makes a game more immersive.  But the reason might be simple: How many people have actually finished Skyrim? Maybe 10 or 20% of all who started the game. How many have screwed around in the open world, maybe even having fun simply by letting themselfes sky high by the first giant? Probably most of them. Basically, these open world games let you play around freely and safely and you can achieve something even if you're having 30 minutes or so. You liberate an enemy camp in Far Cry? No problem and probably not that impacting towards your gaming and story progress? You have to stop while playing the Citadel DLC i.e. and jumping back in maybe weeks later will easily alter how you perceived the DLC.
Tldr; I like having 5 custom dungeons with unique items, difficulty and layout more than having 100 with random loot and enemies being adjusted in strength to the player level.
I have finished the main quests for Assassin's Creed: Origins, Assassin's Creed: Odyssey, Assassin's Creed: Valhalla, The Last of Us, The Last of Us Part II, Fallout 3, Fallout 4, The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion and The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim multiple times in some cases.
Also it depends on the game Horizon Zero Dawn was critically acclaimed for how it told it's rather convoluted backstory and main story in an open world. I think at times it got kind of tedious and boring at times with all the world building and the insane amount of travel to get from point A to point B without fast travel would make some the long distances in some of the Assassin's Creed and The Elder Scrolls game seem short without fast travel. I had some fun in it but the story didn't exactly grab me to play it again and I don't think I ever finished the DLC for it. But I'm currently playing Assassin's Creed: Odyssey for my fourth or fifth complete playthrough and I have two playthroughs for Assassin's Creed: Valhalla done.
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Post by damdil on Jan 28, 2022 21:38:26 GMT
CyberstrikeSo first of all I wouldn't say the Ubisoft open world fromula applies to games like Oblivion and Fallout 3, which imo feature a kind of old school open world style. Yeah, I really like those games and also played through them multiple times. With my example I wanted to point out some of the possible reasons why modern open world games are made the way they are and how this makes them more appealing for a broad audience.
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Post by AngryFrozenWater on Jan 28, 2022 22:23:52 GMT
I like open world RPGs. Some do it better than others. I don't care if the next ME has an open world or not, though. I rather have a great story. But a linear game without side quests is a deal breaker.
I dislike MP games. I understand that others like it, but if the next ME turns out to be fully MP then that would be a deal breaker.
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Post by damdil on Jan 29, 2022 23:56:41 GMT
I like open world RPGs. Some do it better than others. I don't care if the next ME has an open world or not, though. I rather have a great story. But a linear game without side quests is a deal breaker. I dislike MP games. I understand that others like it, but if the next ME turns out to be fully MP then that would be a deal breaker.
I didn't mean without any side quests but interesting ones. Nothing like "Thanks, but this settlement still needs your help" (if you played Fallout 4 you know) but quests like the loyalty quests frome ME 2 for example.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jan 30, 2022 0:11:06 GMT
Cyberstrike So first of all I wouldn't say the Ubisoft open world fromula applies to games like Oblivion and Fallout 3, which imo feature a kind of old school open world style. Yeah, I really like those games and also played through them multiple times. With my example I wanted to point out some of the possible reasons why modern open world games are made the way they are and how this makes them more appealing for a broad audience.
Well Horizon Zero Dawn and it's upcoming sequel Horizon Forbidden West along with games like Marvel's Spider-Man, Marvel's Guardians of the Galaxy, The Last of Us Part II, God of War, and Ghosts of Tsumiha seem to be the new favorites of open world games, or at the very least story based action adventure games set in very large areas.
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Post by AngryFrozenWater on Jan 30, 2022 1:47:12 GMT
I like open world RPGs. Some do it better than others. I don't care if the next ME has an open world or not, though. I rather have a great story. But a linear game without side quests is a deal breaker. I dislike MP games. I understand that others like it, but if the next ME turns out to be fully MP then that would be a deal breaker. I didn't mean without any side quests but interesting ones. Nothing like "Thanks, but this settlement still needs your help" (if you played Fallout 4 you know) but quests like the loyalty quests frome ME 2 for example. Don't worry, man. I don't like silly quests either. 
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jan 31, 2022 22:12:50 GMT
I didn't mean without any side quests but interesting ones. Nothing like "Thanks, but this settlement still needs your help" (if you played Fallout 4 you know) but quests like the loyalty quests frome ME 2 for example. Don't worry, man. I don't like silly quests either. 
Not all side quests need to be serious and grimdark tough moral quandaries, as I've gotten older I tend to find more the humorous side quests more memorable and fun. The serious and grimdark tough moral quandaries are great when their done right but I honestly can't tell you one that I remember off the top of my head that was told right.
I love the loyalty quests of Liam and Drack because they are actually funny and memorable which is a lot better than half of the loyalty quests in ME2 especially those of Tali, Jacob, Thane, and Jack which I find now of days are all really boring.
One of my favorite side quests in Assassin's Creed: Odyssey is "Age is Just Number" where the Eagle Bearer has to help an extremely horny old woman get some ingredients for an elixir so her very tied and exhausted husband can have sex with her again. Once you get the ingredients the husband tells his wife that he's unable to keep up with her and if she continues with this it'll kill him. So the Eagle Bearer has to figure what to do, one option is just to demand to get paid and be on your way the other is that the Eagle Bearer bang the wife for 24 hours while the husband is outside their house talking with friends playing music. He asks once the Eagle Bearer comes out if his wife had fun and you give an answer he gives you a dagger and some money and you're on way. Even some of the Untold Tales of Greece DLC side-quests are just various "go get something and kill some one" type quests but the characters are so funny and the set up is well done that you can have everything from hard moral decisions to one quest that is a basically a rom-com story.
Seriousness has it's place but some times it's good to have a laugh as well.
And for me MEA did that better than other games and all their DLC combined! It allowed me to make a Ryder that was always serious or always silly, or *shock* *gasp* BOTH serious and silly depending on the situation just like a real person.
You can be in the darkest situation you can ever imagine and guess what? There will ALWAYS be people who will make jokes and don't seem to take it seriously. I like a story that isn't afraid to be silly every once and while and not just with one-liners, but some quests that have a humorous element to it or at the very least the devs know when to put in a humorous option and when not to have one.
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AngryFrozenWater
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Post by AngryFrozenWater on Feb 1, 2022 0:34:21 GMT
Don't worry, man. I don't like silly quests either.  Not all side quests need to be serious and grimdark tough moral quandaries, as I've gotten older I tend to find more the humorous side quests more memorable and fun. The serious and grimdark tough moral quandaries are great when their done right but I honestly can't tell you one that I remember off the top of my head that was told right.
I love the loyalty quests of Liam and Drack because they are actually funny and memorable which is a lot better than half of the loyalty quests in ME2 especially those of Tali, Jacob, Thane, and Jack which I find now of days are all really boring.
One of my favorite side quests in Assassin's Creed: Odyssey is "Age is Just Number" where the Eagle Bearer has to help an extremely horny old woman get some ingredients for an elixir so her very tied and exhausted husband can have sex with her again. Once you get the ingredients the husband tells his wife that he's unable to keep up with her and if she continues with this it'll kill him. So the Eagle Bearer has to figure what to do, one option is just to demand to get paid and be on your way the other is that the Eagle Bearer bang the wife for 24 hours while the husband is outside their house talking with friends playing music. He asks once the Eagle Bearer comes out if his wife had fun and you give an answer he gives you a dagger and some money and you're on way. Even some of the Untold Tales of Greece DLC side-quests are just various "go get something and kill some one" type quests but the characters are so funny and the set up is well done that you can have everything from hard moral decisions to one quest that is a basically a rom-com story.
Seriousness has it's place but some times it's good to have a laugh as well.
And for me MEA did that better than other games and all their DLC combined! It allowed me to make a Ryder that was always serious or always silly, or *shock* *gasp* BOTH serious and silly depending on the situation just like a real person.
You can be in the darkest situation you can ever imagine and guess what? There will ALWAYS be people who will make jokes and don't seem to take it seriously. I like a story that isn't afraid to be silly every once and while and not just with one-liners, but some quests that have a humorous element to it or at the very least the devs know when to put in a humorous option and when not to have one. With silly quests I mean, quests like fetch quests, procedural generated quests, and quests that keep repeating over and over. Remember the quests in DAI were you had to bring back a cow to its owner? That is a true silly quest, which I refuse to do. On the other hand I couldn't help laughing when the W3 made a parody to bring back a goat while ringing a bell.
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