Croatsky
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Amateur Reporter
Old BSN veteran, I guess.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Croatsky on Nov 8, 2023 23:21:51 GMT
And BioWare already drained the well when it comes to ancient crisis coming to threaten all life with the Reapers in the original trilogy. Their cycles have been culling the galaxy for over a billion years, I think a coincidental discovery of something even more ancient and even more powerful than the Reapers would not only be a copout but would also trivialize the original trilogy. Just like how Dragonball Z or the sequel trilogy for Star Wars trivialized their former stories & characters by having an exponentially more powerful villain show up who makes all the sacrifices the heroes have made up until that point seem rather pointless. Not to mention the Andromeda Initiative trivialized the Reapers themselves. I mean, a billion years of cycles, and these hairless monkeys managed to lead a jailbreak of their trap barely a generation after leaving their home solar system! Sorry, but Starbrat is rock bottom for the Reapers.
From what we know about Reapers, they don't give a damn about other galaxies, since original dark energy plotline was killed off mid-ME2 development( plotline that sucked).
Also as we are trying to be smartass here, no we are not monkeys, we are apes. Also we have more hair than apes and monkeys.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 8, 2023 23:53:12 GMT
Trailer has me having new fears: We'll be forced to be some kind of criminal element ie GTA or Cyberpunk. I'm fine with a good job character doing questionable things (soldier/specter/ pathfinder) or a neutral character (Courier) but being a criminal carries with it a whole lot of other baggage that makes the archetype not fun to play. Or Mass Effect 2, where we're railroaded into working for TIM because reasons. Hmmm. My Shepard didn't work for, but with TIM to stop the collectors. It was great working with Cerberus.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 9, 2023 5:06:10 GMT
Not to mention the Andromeda Initiative trivialized the Reapers themselves. I mean, a billion years of cycles, and these hairless monkeys managed to lead a jailbreak of their trap barely a generation after leaving their home solar system! Sorry, but Starbrat is rock bottom for the Reapers.
From what we know about Reapers, they don't give a damn about other galaxies, since original dark energy plotline was killed off mid-ME2 development( plotline that sucked).
Also as we are trying to be smartass here, no we are not monkeys, we are apes. Also we have more hair than apes and monkeys.
As long as travel between galaxies was possible, they would HAVE to worry about them, if only because other galaxies could someday contaminate the Milky Way.
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Post by Vortex13 on Nov 9, 2023 14:46:13 GMT
I always suspected that BioWare was going to bridge the two galaxies but seeing the N7 teaser image with Hanar, Volus and Geth with Angara just makes me cringe. I get that the cat's already out of the bag, and other such metaphors, but it really renders the whole point of space travel logistics moot as well as pretty much guarantees we are going to get a Dragonball Z type villain.
The laziness of exponentially more powerful antagonists is pretty self-evident though I think that the trivializing of the size of space is actually a much more damaging element. The whole make up of the Mass Effect background setting was established based on the logistical implications of limitations even with FTL travel. Space was big, and even with the galaxy's ezo powered drives they had only been able to see a fraction of 1% of the Milky Way. The logistics of having to have discharge points and refueling stations scattered around the relays like tiny islands in a vast ocean was intentionally designed into the framework of the setting and was the underlying reason behind several major conflicts of the franchise.
It's why the Human Alliance and Batarian Hegemony were at odds, why the Krogan Rebellions happened, why there was contention around activating dormant Mass Relays, etc. Even with the technological marvel of Mass Effect technology the sheer size of the universe constrained society and made everything more 'grounded' in realism. Why was it so important to fight the Reapers instead of just running? Because up until Andromeda there wasn't anywhere to run to.
But now those guardrails are off.
Going 2.5 million light years to another galaxy is now no more an inconvenience than running down to your local grocery store. Astronomical distances have been reduced to a nonissue. Now there's nothing to stop another group like the Initiative from just going off to colonize the rest of Local group. Or the Sculptor Group and the M81 Group (10 to 15 million light-years away). Or even going on a trip to HD1 (13.5 billion light-years away). Distance has become meaningless and as a result now the crux of what the Mass Effect setting was built on is invalidated.
Why shouldn't the Council just give the Krogan a whole galaxy cluster to inhabit? Why don't the Quarians just go to a new galaxy? Why don't the Geth? Why should the Alliance and Hegemony fight over territory? Etc. There's no reason for these types of conflicts to exist in a setting where the protagonists' society is technically omnipresent and as a result the foundation of compelling narratives and moral quandaries is now nonexistent. Really, a Dragonball Z type villain is the only type of villain that could conceivably be a challenge to such a utopian society.
Are there other potential conflicts that could still arise in such a setting? Sure. But those would require a level of writing skill that I think is frankly outside of BioWare's purview.
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Post by lavigne on Nov 9, 2023 15:01:20 GMT
I’m less interested in the game now than I was a week ago. I have zero interest in the Andromeda story/timeline. Great for those that do and I by no means begrudge you the chance to finish what was started in MEA, but I don’t see myself picking this up at launch, not on current evidence. Obviously there’s a long time to go and lots of details yet to be revealed but I’m suspecting that the more I hear about the next game the more inclined I’m going to be to give it a miss.
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Post by redeem on Nov 9, 2023 20:08:46 GMT
I probably won't even be playing video games by the time this game comes out but my biggest fear is any call back to Andromeda for the sake of amending multiple "lovers" of both Mass effect concepts (first being OT and second being Andromeda). It was a failure beyond compare and not worth using in any future game.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 9, 2023 20:55:18 GMT
One fear, not for me, is Bioware were to remake the trilogy, while incorporating stuff from Andromeda in the trilogy. Of course MEA would be remade as well. What I mean is in ME1, Shepard has a scene with Alec. The scene could also have his kids with him. When on the moon, Shepard is able to see the construction of the Hyperion. Maybe a scene showing Garson talking with Udina about whatever. While on the Citadel, can overhear updates about the Initiative in ME2. ME3, nothing happens because everyone is dealing with the reapers. ME4 can have Alec asking Shepard to take his kids on a few missions to help them gain some training and experience. After that, MEA takes place.
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Post by quarianmasterrace on Nov 9, 2023 21:27:32 GMT
I’m just really hoping that this concept art is just a pie in the sky general Mass Effect thing alluding to a continuation of the multiple stories across multiple titles
The merging of Andromeda with the OT galaxy is just such a monumentally stupid idea. Logistically it is an absurdity (the Initiative is itself an absurdity with how Mass Effect technology and space travel was set up), narratively it is doomed to being an unfocused and unsatisfying mess.
All to avoid ripping off the decade plus old band aid of the crappy ME3 ending.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 9, 2023 21:37:15 GMT
I would not be surprised if merging Milky Way and Andromeda end's up with the same explanation dumb dumb gave to Shepard, You don't need to know, and there's not enough time to explain.
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Post by vonuber on Nov 10, 2023 14:23:44 GMT
Merging with Andromeda makes it sound like a system like in DA:I, where you had the Feralden and Orlais maps.
And as noted above, trivialises both the size of space, and the setting itself.
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Post by lavigne on Nov 10, 2023 16:11:07 GMT
Some fans are going to go ape sh*t either way.
The benefit of addressing the ME3 ending now rather than avoiding it is that once it's done it's done and you have that whole post-ME3 timeframe to play around in. Don't do it now and you just go through this argument every time a new game is announced/developed/released.
The whole argument around not canonizing an ending so that they don't invalidate people's choices at the end of the OT, well I chose refuse. If any part of the new game is set in the MW and galactic civilization still exists then you've just invalidated my choice.
DISCLAIMER: I didn't pick refuse really, but the point stands, some people did and you're invalidating that choice.
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Post by SwobyJ on Nov 10, 2023 20:18:06 GMT
Not to mention the Andromeda Initiative trivialized the Reapers themselves. I mean, a billion years of cycles, and these hairless monkeys managed to lead a jailbreak of their trap barely a generation after leaving their home solar system! Sorry, but Starbrat is rock bottom for the Reapers.
From what we know about Reapers, they don't give a damn about other galaxies, since original dark energy plotline was killed off mid-ME2 development( plotline that sucked).
Also as we are trying to be smartass here, no we are not monkeys, we are apes. Also we have more hair than apes and monkeys.
Yes the material we're given has it that the Reapers were focused on the Milky Way. But, there's a lot of ways things could be twisted or expanded on. Like I don't think the Leviathans said they were NOT involved with other galaxies, I think? Maybe? Reaper experiments and projects could go beyond the Milky Way, for all we know. They could be written as to not just sleep between galaxies, but have other stuff going on that could even tie into Andromeda. But while I don't completely condemn any attempt of Bioware to expand Reaper lore, I think they should be extremely careful now. Anything they do either risks indeed trivializing the Reapers (but I'd agree that some escaping the Milky Way should mean little to nothing to the Reapers unless it interrupts the Cycle), or making this Just Another Reaper Story. I do think that any MW game should involve the story of the Reapers to some extent, if only because of the background of their huge involvement in it for what, millions of years or whatever? It'd be weird not to do anything with them. But there should be great care taken to do it in a way that's very acceptable to most players.
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Post by SwobyJ on Nov 10, 2023 20:18:46 GMT
Sorry, but Starbrat is rock bottom for the Reapers.
From what we know about Reapers, they don't give a damn about other galaxies, since original dark energy plotline was killed off mid-ME2 development( plotline that sucked).
Also as we are trying to be smartass here, no we are not monkeys, we are apes. Also we have more hair than apes and monkeys.
As long as travel between galaxies was possible, they would HAVE to worry about them, if only because other galaxies could someday contaminate the Milky Way. Reaper Politician: "We are monitoring the situation."
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Post by Gileadan on Nov 10, 2023 21:25:46 GMT
It's going to be a sci fi gem. Travel between two galaxies completely trivialized, in fact, the distance between them as a whole seems to have shrunk to somewhere close to insignificant.
"A distress signal from Andromeda"? I don't even want to know how that managed to reach the Milky Way. Maybe they are peeking through the Geth's space magic telescope again and someone on a planet in Andromeda is making SOS flag signals?
Can't wait.
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Post by lavigne on Nov 10, 2023 21:47:51 GMT
"A distress signal from Andromeda"? I don't even want to know how that managed to reach the Milky Way. Maybe they are peeking through the Geth's space magic telescope again and someone on a planet in Andromeda is making SOS flag signals? QED ain't it? Failing that it's either intergalactic smoke signals or they've sent Space Lassie back with an SOS.
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Post by quarianmasterrace on Nov 10, 2023 21:56:45 GMT
Sorry, but Starbrat is rock bottom for the Reapers.
From what we know about Reapers, they don't give a damn about other galaxies, since original dark energy plotline was killed off mid-ME2 development( plotline that sucked).
Also as we are trying to be smartass here, no we are not monkeys, we are apes. Also we have more hair than apes and monkeys.
As long as travel between galaxies was possible, they would HAVE to worry about them, if only because other galaxies could someday contaminate the Milky Way. They should have been concerned with the Initiative itself escaping to contaminate other galaxies as well, seeing as their mandate is to preserve organic life from destruction by synthetics (by being synthetics and destroying it themselves). Initiative is a bunch of galactic rejects doing slapdash AI research, and then sticking the poorly QCed creations into the underdeveloped brains of goofball teenagers. It’s the most dangerous experiment involving AI in the setting outside of maybe Overlord (which, duh, Cerberus). They have to know about it, because it was public knowledge. Khalisa was running tabloid stories on the Initiative in the Cora book. If she knows, anyone with access to the extranet will. Would have been easy to solve the problem since the Initiative also didn’t even bother to arm their ships with anything, even point defense lasers. Frank the Reaper Destroyer could have been sent to take care of them on his lunch break. They don’t do this because the cowardly idiot plot where the writers try to run from the ME3 ending instead of dealing with it has to happen.
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Post by quarianmasterrace on Nov 10, 2023 22:05:02 GMT
A distress signal from Andromeda"? I don't even want to know how that managed to reach the Milky Way. Maybe they are peeking through the Geth's space magic telescope again and someone on a planet in Andromeda is making SOS flag signals? Can't wait. Obviously through the personal armor sized QECs that the Initiative also somehow developed, which enable their pathfinders to remain in constant real time communication with the Sam AI’s that are dozens or hundreds of light years away, without any sort of comm buoy network. Most advanced stealth warship in the galaxy having one of those was a big deal back back in the trilogy, but I guess the AI found out how to miniaturize and put them in their goofy dome helmets back in the 2170s before the Normandy was even invented, and also have a seemingly infinite number of entangled pairs.
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Post by shermos on Nov 12, 2023 18:03:23 GMT
I'm not thrilled that the Milky Way and Andromeda settings seem to be getting merged, but it was to be expected given previous N7 day teasers. The existence of intergalactic FTL travel does create narrative issues re: the Reapers, but the new game doesn't need dwell on that to be fair.
My main fear at this point is that Bioware hasn't hired better writers both from a narrative and character standpoint. With Mike Gamble being in charge, I'm concerned the game will continue to push the idea that "synthesis" between organics and AI is inevitable or else there will inevitably be apocalyptic conflict.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 12, 2023 18:08:51 GMT
What's especially funny about this potential merging is Bioware did a soft-reboot to Andromeda because they had burned the Milky Way setting down with ME3 endings that are still radioactive over a decade later....
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Post by SwobyJ on Nov 12, 2023 18:30:12 GMT
My main, or at least sporadically strong, fear of the next game is that it is pure nostalgia bait, meant to not just burn the earlier setting (as alleged above by Iakus), but insult us for even liking it.
And I'm even okay with texturing past factions and characters more. But there's too much active 'kill your heroes' taken way too seriously in the entertainment industry, with little apparently wisdom in going about it. Sure I'll (against even other fans) take a boss fight against an 'evil' Shepard! Because I'm crazy like that! But don't do it in a way the tells me I was a dummy dumbface for even liking the trilogy.
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Post by bierkrug on Nov 14, 2023 10:07:00 GMT
My main fear at this point is that Bioware hasn't hired better writers both from a narrative and character standpoint. With Mike Gamble being in charge, I'm concerned the game will continue to push the idea that "synthesis" between organics and AI is inevitable or else there will inevitably be apocalyptic conflict. Brrrrrr, I hate this transhumanism stuff and all it's implications. If they're pushing that I'm jumping ship. Not a fan of such bodyhorror.
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Post by lavigne on Nov 14, 2023 10:38:42 GMT
My main fear at this point is that Bioware hasn't hired better writers both from a narrative and character standpoint. With Mike Gamble being in charge, I'm concerned the game will continue to push the idea that "synthesis" between organics and AI is inevitable or else there will inevitably be apocalyptic conflict. Brrrrrr, I hate this transhumanism stuff and all it's implications. If they're pushing that I'm jumping ship. Not a fan of such bodyhorror. It's ok, it's not like they've appointed a lead narrative director with vast experience in that area......
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Post by Sartoz on Nov 14, 2023 11:57:52 GMT
Hm... lots of hyperbolic speculations out there from the teaser.
Occam's razor tells me the game year is around 2819... 600 years after the ME3 ending. Remnants of civilization remains. Liara and co. remain and all those aliens were part of the 5th Ark. And... wait for it.... it takes place in the Milky Way.
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