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Post by colfoley on Dec 6, 2022 7:25:08 GMT
If we have to choose with siding with Solas OR the Qunari so help me I'm going to have a huge tantrum. I don't think that is going to be a choice at all. Indeed I would be fairly shocked if we get to side with Solas at all, unless of course there is a choice where we side with him or the other Evanuris. However I expect that we'll be able to recruit Qunari forces for our own final confrontation with Solas. Maybe even choose between the Imperium and the Qunari. To be fair just because we've had short stories set in, or about factions from, Antiva, Nevarra, and the Anderfels doesn't mean we're going there in the game. Could just aswell be that they've been thinking/writing about those places/factions only because characters from them are going to be in it. The only place we know we're going right now is Minrathous, because they've said they're excited to show it to us. The Qunari being there and invading is a pretty big indication for me. And while I didn't get around to it gervaise21 made me consider to why the Antaam might be invading Antiva in the first place. And it is possible that them and the Ben Hasrath are working together afterall. Given that A. in TVN 'eight little crows' I think the Crows were afraid of Ben Hasrath involvement and B. it seems the Ben Hasrath are the ones that are hunting after Solas so its possible that their attempts to infiltrate Antiva failed, there is something in Antiva that is important to Solas (if we go there in Dreadwolf that'd almost have to be a given), so they 'encourage' the Antaam to invade so they can have a wedge in the region so they can start looking for whatever they want.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 6, 2022 8:04:48 GMT
If we have to choose with siding with Solas OR the Qunari so help me I'm going to have a huge tantrum. Deciding between destroying the world or aligning with those who are trying to stop him. Unless you have death wish, that doesn't seem much of a choice to me. Plus, according to TN, the ones trying to stop him are not the Antaam currently running riot over Thedas (if you believe Par Vollen on this). It is far more likely, if they make us choose at all, that it will be between the Qun (Ben'Hassrath) and Tevinter (Sicarri).
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 6, 2022 8:13:56 GMT
I don't think that is going to be a choice at all. Indeed I would be fairly shocked if we get to side with Solas at all, unless of course there is a choice where we side with him or the other Evanuris. However I expect that we'll be able to recruit Qunari forces for our own final confrontation with Solas. Maybe even choose between the Imperium and the Qunari. I am in agreement with you on this (see my previous post). It is also possible that we will need to persuade the Ben'Hassrath to work with us because we need their intelligence on Solas. Now I'm not entirely convinced the Ben'Hassrath aren't working with the Inquisition on this. I think Charter was being evasive when questioned about their involvement at her meeting because that was a stipulation they made before they would co-operate. The Ben'Hassrath know that Solas will be watching them, so they would naturally be suspicious of attending anything involving outsiders. However, Gatt directed the two characters to Varric in Kirkwall at the end of Half Up Front, which seemed to suggest there was already some degree of co-operation between them. Nevertheless, it was possible that subsequent to that story, the Ben'Hassrath decided the Inquisition were taking too many risks in their search for Solas and stopped co-operating.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 6, 2022 8:17:24 GMT
To be fair just because we've had short stories set in, or about factions from, Antiva, Nevarra, and the Anderfels doesn't mean we're going there in the game. Could just aswell be that they've been thinking/writing about those places/factions only because characters from them are going to be in it. The only place we know we're going right now is Minrathous, because they've said they're excited to show it to us. I hope you’re right. Really don’t want them to do one wilderness and one district of a city and say “well there’s that country done”.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 6, 2022 8:20:04 GMT
I don't think that is going to be a choice at all. Indeed I would be fairly shocked if we get to side with Solas at all, unless of course there is a choice where we side with him or the other Evanuris. However I expect that we'll be able to recruit Qunari forces for our own final confrontation with Solas. Maybe even choose between the Imperium and the Qunari. I am in agreement with you on this (see my previous post). It is also possible that we will need to persuade the Ben'Hassrath to work with us because we need their intelligence on Solas. Now I'm not entirely convinced the Ben'Hassrath aren't working with the Inquisition on this. I think Charter was being evasive when questioned about their involvement at her meeting because that was a stipulation they made before they would co-operate. The Ben'Hassrath know that Solas will be watching them, so they would naturally be suspicious of attending anything involving outsiders. However, Gatt directed the two characters to Varric in Kirkwall at the end of Half Up Front, which seemed to suggest there was already some degree of co-operation between them. Nevertheless, it was possible that subsequent to that story, the Ben'Hassrath decided the Inquisition were taking too many risks in their search for Solas and stopped co-operating. It'll be interesting if our decision to make the alliance in DAI comes into play with that. If we make the alliance, perhaps the Arigena and Ariqun will help us against both Solas and the Antaam. While if we didn’t, that isn’t offered since they have no basis for an alliance with Thedas. Maybe other choices in the past games too, like befriending Sten (assuming he is against the invasion but infighting), if Hawke was made basalit-an, etc. Sort of like how the peace option for the Geth and Quarians required choices from ME2 as well as ME3.
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Post by Gileadan on Dec 6, 2022 8:56:52 GMT
Odd story. I always thought the special thing about the Qunari was an entirely different mind set, a tendency to act as part of a collective instead of a bunch of individuals, but in this story they act just like your run of the mill brutal invaders with a commander who rules his soldiers through fear instead of his unit being a cohesive collective. While the protagonists, of course, banter cheerfully while their city is being occupied.
I hope it's not a sign of things to come.
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Post by Beerfish on Dec 6, 2022 16:19:23 GMT
If we have to choose with siding with Solas OR the Qunari so help me I'm going to have a huge tantrum. Deciding between destroying the world or aligning with those who are trying to stop him. Unless you have death wish, that doesn't seem much of a choice to me. Plus, according to TN, the ones trying to stop him are not the Antaam currently running riot over Thedas (if you believe Par Vollen on this). It is far more likely, if they make us choose at all, that it will be between the Qun (Ben'Hassrath) and Tevinter (Sicarri). As a gamer, damn poor choice. I get to choose between destroying he world and lining up with the faction/group/race I hate the most in the whole franchise.
May as well give the the old red/green/blue me3 choice.
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Post by Beerfish on Dec 6, 2022 16:22:24 GMT
If we have to choose with siding with Solas OR the Qunari so help me I'm going to have a huge tantrum. If you have to choose between one evil and another…you’d prefer not to choose at all?
But yeah, that doesn’t sound like it’d land all that well with a large tract of players. I never said that at all. I said I'd have a tantrum, then obviously chose one or the other and be about as satisfied as i was after the me3 ending.
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Post by Heimdall on Dec 6, 2022 16:26:54 GMT
Odd story. I always thought the special thing about the Qunari was an entirely different mind set, a tendency to act as part of a collective instead of a bunch of individuals, but in this story they act just like your run of the mill brutal invaders with a commander who rules his soldiers through fear instead of his unit being a cohesive collective. While the protagonists, of course, banter cheerfully while their city is being occupied. I hope it's not a sign of things to come. One of the things I fear is the presence of an over abundance of Marvel/Whedon-esque quipping in serious situations. It’s more cringing to me than amusing and I grew tired of it about six years ago. I’m somewhat on board with some more brutal Qunari commanders if they play it off as the Antaam requiring the influence of the priesthood to restrain these impulses.
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Post by Grog Muffins on Dec 6, 2022 17:10:37 GMT
If you have to choose between one evil and another…you’d prefer not to choose at all?
But yeah, that doesn’t sound like it’d land all that well with a large tract of players. I never said that at all. I said I'd have a tantrum, then obviously chose one or the other and be about as satisfied as i was after the me3 ending. As a thought experiment, if something like this existed, and the choice between Solas or the Qunari were presented to me like, say, the choice to leave either Hawke or the Warden in the Fade, I think I might just stop playing the game and never touch it again. I grew tired of "deep, hard, meaningful choices" like this in MEA, particularly that one Salarian who had betrayed their Ark to the Kett in order to buy time instead of all of them being killed the moment they were captured. When you catch up to him you either let him go and he gives you the information he learned during that time or you arrest him and he doesn't tell you anything out of spite. He did what he did to keep his species from being genocided but if you arrest him he's gonna withhold vital information that may lead to their genocide anyway. Because deep, hard, meaningful choices. One good thing about this thought experiment, it likely won't happen because this is very much a grimdark choice (either side with the genocidal, irrational elf man or with the conquering, brainwashing invaders) and Mark Darrah did say a few times in his videos that Bioware is trying to move away from grimdark for Dragon Age. Darkness has a place in stories, it's how you learn to truly value happiness, but if a side effect of not getting too much darkness is also not getting choices like this that exist just for the sake of "anguish and moral conflict", I think I'd be fine with it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 6, 2022 18:28:02 GMT
Darkness has a place in stories, it's how you learn to truly value happiness, but if a side effect of not getting too much darkness is also not getting choices like this that exist just for the sake of "anguish and moral conflict", I think I'd be fine with it As you say, you can have dark episodes in a game without giving us choices like those you have mentioned. I honestly don't think they would make you choose between Solas and the Qun, though, unless it was merely a decision about which method to achieve a desired goal, like eradicating the Blight, rather than simply end of the world versus entire world under the domination of the Qun. Mind you, the latter would mean they had suddenly made the Qun vastly overpowered. However, it could have something to do with how we stop Solas. The Qun were working on a plan to strengthen the Veil and that could have implications for magic users generally, even if it did prevent Solas' plan from succeeding. The thing is that unless they want to reset the entire world in a permanent way, neither destroying the Veil, nor strengthening it, is going to be an outcome.
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Post by Grog Muffins on Dec 6, 2022 18:57:47 GMT
As you say, you can have dark episodes in a game without giving us choices like those you have mentioned. I honestly don't think they would make you choose between Solas and the Qun, though, unless it was merely a decision about which method to achieve a desired goal, like eradicating the Blight, rather than simply end of the world versus entire world under the domination of the Qun. Mind you, the latter would mean they had suddenly made the Qun vastly overpowered. However, it could have something to do with how we stop Solas. The Qun were working on a plan to strengthen the Veil and that could have implications for magic users generally, even if it did prevent Solas' plan from succeeding. The thing is that unless they want to reset the entire world in a permanent way, neither destroying the Veil, nor strengthening it, is going to be an outcome. Yeah, that's why I call it a thought experiment, vital context is missing. Choose between Solas and the Qun. Ok, on what? What are the circumstances? What are their arguments? What are the potential consequences? To what degree to I choose one or the other? Is there any other option? Can I back out later? Can I shake on it with one hand while holding a dagger behind my back with the other? A choice that's part of the critpath needs to have this level of detail in it, the Qun alliance in Iron Buill's quest was never going to be like this because it was optional content. Then again, the Hawke/Warden choice wasn't very detailed either, so there's a not so fortunate example of that that already existing.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 6, 2022 19:04:44 GMT
I don’t see a choice between the Qun or Solas happening either. It’s more going to be “do you support the invading nation of murdering brainwashers or the empire that practices slavery and human sacrifice for kicks and giggles” Hope there is an option to help the innocent people on both sides while letting the bad ones destroy each other.
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Post by necrowaif on Dec 6, 2022 19:57:30 GMT
Darkness has a place in stories, it's how you learn to truly value happiness, but if a side effect of not getting too much darkness is also not getting choices like this that exist just for the sake of "anguish and moral conflict", I think I'd be fine with it. There was already a fair bit of light-hearted humour and positivity in the Dragon Age setting. It was grim, but the world wasn’t inevitably doomed. You could find love, forge friendships and frequently make decisions that didn’t blow up in your face. That made it distinct from the unrelenting pessimism and futility of The Witcher, Warhammer or Dark Souls. BioWare risks making the series unrecognizable if they soften the tone too much. That seems like an unwise decision from a commercial standpoint for a studio that really needs Dreadwolf to be a success.
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Post by Grog Muffins on Dec 6, 2022 20:50:57 GMT
Darkness has a place in stories, it's how you learn to truly value happiness, but if a side effect of not getting too much darkness is also not getting choices like this that exist just for the sake of "anguish and moral conflict", I think I'd be fine with it. There was already a fair bit of light-hearted humour and positivity in the Dragon Age setting. It was grim, but you could find love and frequently make decisions that didn’t blow up in your face. That made it distinct from the unrelenting pessimism and futility of The Witcher, Warhammer or Dark Souls. BioWare risks making the series unrecognizable if they soften the tone too much. That seems like an unwise decision from a commercial standpoint for a studio that really needs Dreadwolf to be a success. I never actually agreed with the idea that DA, especially DAO, was grimdark, either, but I'm not a developer or decision maker on the series, so my opinion matters little on this. Like you said, there was horror and cruelty but there was always enough joy to counterbalance it. I'm one of those people who defend that third option in Redcliffe and the Brecillian Forest where you get to save everyone. Either killing a desperate mother or her scared child and either killing an entire Dalish clan or the victims of a grief maddened father "for the greater good", with no other option, would have been the epitome of grimdark. Even if you save the main people, there's still enough bitter in that bittersweet ending, because there are still people that lost their lives along the way, people that will be forever scarred by what they went through. Beyond unrecognizable, I would say that softening the tone too much would also trivialize the hardships being overcome. If you're going for a mature story, with mature themes, you can't shy away from the darkness some things are going to bring about. That maturity will allow you to analyze what it means to go through those hurdles and what you can do to come out the other side and keep going. Craft a narrative of hope, if you will, the opposite of grimdark and this, to my mind, wouldn't be exhausting for developers to work on because you ultimately bring in the good. I've been having a blast the past year and a little playing Final Fantasy 14 and the latest 2 expansions are chock full of existential dread and just horrible things happening to good people. But the endings, the lessons the characters learn along the way and the joy and love they draw strength from to keep forging ahead (excuse my cheese), are exactly the perfect counterbalance. Where there is deep darkness, there is also shining light. (And now I made myself wanna NG+ those expansions )
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 6, 2022 21:32:39 GMT
I don’t see a choice between the Qun or Solas happening either. It’s more going to be “do you support the invading nation of murdering brainwashers or the empire that practices slavery and human sacrifice for kicks and giggles” Hope there is an option to help the innocent people on both sides while letting the bad ones destroy each other. Yeah, I also think that the Qun's plot is going to be more tied with Tevinter. I'm interested and concerned to see how much influence we'll have on the plot and if we'll actually get to pick a side. I'll also say this, despite liking a lot, in theory, to explore said plot, as well as Solas/elven lore and revelations, I think the two plots might be too big to coexist in the same game. A DA game where the main plot would be about the Qunari invasion, even if not something everyone would've likely, would've been big enough to suffice as one. Placing it in alongside Solas' plot brings concerns on how well they'll be able to execute both.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 6, 2022 21:37:37 GMT
I don’t see a choice between the Qun or Solas happening either. It’s more going to be “do you support the invading nation of murdering brainwashers or the empire that practices slavery and human sacrifice for kicks and giggles” Hope there is an option to help the innocent people on both sides while letting the bad ones destroy each other. Yeah, I also think that the Qun's plot is going to be more tied with Tevinter. I'm interested and concerned to see how much influence we'll have on the plot and if we'll actually get to pick a side. I'll also say this, despite liking a lot, in theory, to explore said plot, as well as Solas/elven lore and revelations, I think the two plots might be too big to coexist in the same game. A DA game where the main plot would be about the Qunari invasion, even if not something everyone would've likely, would've been big enough to suffice as one. Placing it in alongside Solas' plot brings concerns on how well they'll be able to execute both. It does fit the pattern though. DAO- Ferelden Civil War/ The Blight...as well as technically the conflict in each zone. DA 2- The Deep Roads expedition, the Qunari war, the mage templar issues. DA I- The Mage/ Templar war/ the struggle with Corypheus. Yes, not all of these plots were handled equally in their respective games in terms of time devoted or quality, but each Dragon Age game has had multiple conflicts for the character to wind their way through. One usually down closer to earth and the other high end.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 6, 2022 21:47:10 GMT
Yeah, I also think that the Qun's plot is going to be more tied with Tevinter. I'm interested and concerned to see how much influence we'll have on the plot and if we'll actually get to pick a side. I'll also say this, despite liking a lot, in theory, to explore said plot, as well as Solas/elven lore and revelations, I think the two plots might be too big to coexist in the same game. A DA game where the main plot would be about the Qunari invasion, even if not something everyone would've likely, would've been big enough to suffice as one. Placing it in alongside Solas' plot brings concerns on how well they'll be able to execute both. It does fit the pattern though. DAO- Ferelden Civil War/ The Blight...as well as technically the conflict in each zone. DA 2- The Deep Roads expedition, the Qunari war, the mage templar issues. DA I- The Mage/ Templar war/ the struggle with Corypheus. Yes, not all of these plots were handled equally in their respective games in terms of time devoted or quality, but each Dragon Age game has had multiple conflicts for the character to wind their way through. One usually down closer to earth and the other high end. I do agree with DA games having multiple conflicts/important plots in them, and I wasn't expecting Dreadwolf to be only about Solas. The issue is the scope of the Qunari plot, which is personally way bigger then the plots in Origins alongside the Blight, or the Mage/Templar war and the other plots in Inquisition alongside Corypheus. I fear it might be too big to be worked in a satisfactory way, alongside Solas' plot...and other ones that might be present in Dreadwolf. The Mage/Templar war is a prime example of this, in my opinion. I loved both main quests involving mages and templars in Inquisition, but the war itself didn't really get *that* much screentime, not as much as it'd have needed normally. I don't think the Qunari plot will be worked on exactly like the Mage/templar war, but it's also bigger, in my opinion, then the latter, expecially if the invasion is going beyond the scope of Tevinter, as it seems.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 6, 2022 21:53:25 GMT
It does fit the pattern though. DAO- Ferelden Civil War/ The Blight...as well as technically the conflict in each zone. DA 2- The Deep Roads expedition, the Qunari war, the mage templar issues. DA I- The Mage/ Templar war/ the struggle with Corypheus. Yes, not all of these plots were handled equally in their respective games in terms of time devoted or quality, but each Dragon Age game has had multiple conflicts for the character to wind their way through. One usually down closer to earth and the other high end. I do agree with DA games having multiple conflicts/important plots in them, and I wasn't expecting Dreadwolf to be only about Solas. The issue is the scope of the Qunari plot, which is personally way bigger then the plots in Origins alongside the Blight, or the Mage/Templar war and the other plots in Inquisition alongside Corypheus. I fear it might be too big to be worked in a satisfactory way, alongside Solas' plot...and other ones that might be present in Dreadwolf. The Mage/Templar war is a prime example of this, in my opinion. I loved both main quests involving mages and templars in Inquisition, but the war itself didn't really get *that* much screentime, not as much as it'd have needed normally. I don't think the Qunari plot will be worked on exactly like the Mage/templar war, but it's also bigger, in my opinion, then the latter, expecially if the invasion is going beyond the scope of Tevinter, as it seems. I think the key difference here is that the Mage Templar War, in Inquisition, was basically just active in the Hinterlands and nowhere else. If I'm right then we know of at least two zones where the conflict will be active which suggests more attention given. And hopefully we'll get something more along the lines of what happened with DA 2. Also, given how video games work and given what Solas is, despite the game being called Dreadwolf we might not get that much time for a conflict with him it will just be in the background waiting for us as a 'final boss'. I'm still with you though. I'm not expecting the Qunari conflict to be resolved in this game per se. Either we'll get a peace treaty/ cease fire with the stated expectation that hostilities could resume at some point in the future, or the Qunari will still actively be fighting everyone after the Dreadwolf is dealt with and that will be dealt with via DLC.
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Post by smilesja on Dec 6, 2022 21:57:46 GMT
Odd story. I always thought the special thing about the Qunari was an entirely different mind set, a tendency to act as part of a collective instead of a bunch of individuals, but in this story they act just like your run of the mill brutal invaders with a commander who rules his soldiers through fear instead of his unit being a cohesive collective. While the protagonists, of course, banter cheerfully while their city is being occupied. I hope it's not a sign of things to come. One of the things I fear is the presence of an over abundance of Marvel/Whedon-esque quipping in serious situations. It’s more cringing to me than amusing and I grew tired of it about six years ago. I’m somewhat on board with some more brutal Qunari commanders if they play it off as the Antaam requiring the influence of the priesthood to restrain these impulses. Ehhh I'm getting tired of gritty try hardy stories of the past. Learn to crack a joke every now and then! (Yes I'm still mad that we can't play a sarcastic character anymore. > )
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colfoley
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Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
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Post by colfoley on Dec 6, 2022 22:02:48 GMT
One of the things I fear is the presence of an over abundance of Marvel/Whedon-esque quipping in serious situations. It’s more cringing to me than amusing and I grew tired of it about six years ago. I’m somewhat on board with some more brutal Qunari commanders if they play it off as the Antaam requiring the influence of the priesthood to restrain these impulses. Ehhh I'm getting tired of gritty try hardy stories of the past. Learn to crack a joke every now and then! (Yes I'm still mad that we can't play a sarcastic character anymore. > ) I think we'll get the option to sarcastically mock everyone in site. Hawke, the Inquisitor, and Ryder all had the option not sure why it'd change.
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ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
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phoray
Gotta be kiddin me
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by phoray on Dec 6, 2022 22:04:09 GMT
I just don’t know how an entire race brainwashed into being units of a cohesive whole, with Stens being chosen that reflect that the most, in a society that “reeducates” anyone that doesn’t fit the mold, produces Lash the abusive leader of that little possy chasing the Antivan Crow Duo. Like, way before the schism, this creature was allowed to exist in the above described environment. What is going on in Seheron to allow this? To me this implies something has been wrong a while, even before Trespasser, that even their lowest interchangeable military units were allowed to have so much of a personality.
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ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
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Gotta be kiddin me
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phoray
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by phoray on Dec 6, 2022 22:23:15 GMT
I'm still with you though. I'm not expecting the Qunari conflict to be resolved in this game per se. Either we'll get a peace treaty/ cease fire with the stated expectation that hostilities could resume at some point in the future, or the Qunari will still actively be fighting everyone after the Dreadwolf is dealt with and that will be dealt with via DLC. I agree with this. In Heimdall 's recent video, he reminded me that the previous Qunari Invasion spanned 150 years and that they, at worse, withdrew due to the local population doing so poorly, not so much that they'd given up their takeover plans. With the help Mythal's vessel herself and the mighty Plot Shield, we overcame a Blight in a year when many Blights before spanned decades. I hope they don't do the same to a Qunari Invasion.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 6, 2022 22:30:01 GMT
I just don’t know how an entire race brainwashed into being units of a cohesive whole, with Stens being chosen that reflect that the most, in a society that “reeducates” anyone that doesn’t fit the mold, produces Lash the abusive leader of that little possy chasing the Antivan Crow Duo. Like, way before the schism, this creature was allowed to exist in the above described environment. What is going on in Seheron to allow this? To me this implies something has been wrong a while, even before Trespasser, that even their lowest interchangeable military units were allowed to have so much of a personality. Violent controlling socities produce violent controlling men. And we know that there are still needs to 'reducate' members of the Qun who begin to not believe in the Qun. Typically we've seen this only through the Ben Hasrath but maybe this is how the Antaam would deal with it if they can't get them to a Ben Hassrath? Or, more then likely this could just all be part of their roles and the little games they play with that. A qunari that others amongst them are brainwashed to show fear? Imagine how scary that would be for anyone else who isn't a Qunari and has to face off against the Lash?
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Post by colfoley on Dec 6, 2022 22:31:17 GMT
I'm still with you though. I'm not expecting the Qunari conflict to be resolved in this game per se. Either we'll get a peace treaty/ cease fire with the stated expectation that hostilities could resume at some point in the future, or the Qunari will still actively be fighting everyone after the Dreadwolf is dealt with and that will be dealt with via DLC. I agree with this. In Heimdall 's recent video, he reminded me that the previous Qunari Invasion spanned 150 years and that they, at worse, withdrew due to the local population doing so poorly, not so much that they'd given up their takeover plans. With the help Mythal's vessel herself and the mighty Plot Shield, we overcame a Blight in a year when many Blights before spanned decades. I hope they don't do the same to a Qunari Invasion. I do also hope/ think based on the time skip that DA:D itself might take place over several years for its plot rather then the one we saw for Inquisition and Origins.
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