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Post by colfoley on Oct 4, 2023 6:08:11 GMT
If one is to boycott over this then one should probably boycott the vast majority of western companies.
We'll see how this all shakes out obviously whether they win their lawsuit, lose the lawsuit, or EA settles somewhere, and while the claims remain damning...and enraging...and part of it plays off the sympathies of 'corporations evil, EA is evil, BioWare is evil,' right now all we have is the existance of a lawsuit and the claims made by their apparent defense attorney. While I can easily imagine EA would pull this kind of hijinks and from some of the stuff I've heard about BioWare makes me question their business practices as well, as DKR indicates in his own way, some of the claims made by the employees in the lawsuit, what has been posted, also does not make logical sense which casts doubt on their validity. Which is the ultimate point of a lawsuit. Juresprudance indicates and common sense principle, I believe, means innocent until proven guilty. Right now these employees have made a claim and it is now up to a court to determine the validity of their claims. And how severe the decision is and what these employees get and don't get is going to be a huge indication of how culpable EA/ BioWare ultimatley is.
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Post by githcheater on Oct 4, 2023 14:09:02 GMT
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Oct 4, 2023 15:53:56 GMT
Devs need to unionise. Hopefully the employees get adequate severance. I'm not going to be on the side of multi-billion dollar corporations in this. I agree Devs should form an union and even strike to get a fair treatment and things that they own.
Also fuck (i am not sorry for saying this) EA and Bioware´s higher management. What the hell is this way you treat your previous loyal and long serving employees? Screw Dreadwolf (at the end is just a simple game) right now after hearing this shit i really don´t want to buy and therefore support this behavior. And i don´t believe that many Bioware employees will stay much longer then Dreadwolfs release. I would leave even right now if would working for Bioware.
2023 has to be without any doubt Bioware worse year in its history.
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Oct 4, 2023 18:34:40 GMT
I can't imagine making excuses for this shit.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Oct 4, 2023 18:49:10 GMT
I can't imagine making excuses for this shit. There shouldn´t any excuses for this.
Pay your employees fairly and treat them well. Especially if they have to crunch aka give up their personal lifes for some stupid game. Sure there are few good companies out there but most of them just want to fuck the little guy and treat him like shit. There is only one solution unionize. For the american writers it seems like that their strike is a success so why not in Game Industry?
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Post by colfoley on Oct 4, 2023 20:17:54 GMT
I don't know severance packages remain sort of a schroedingers business package. On the one hand they're fairly logical and a nice way to honor your employees who've served in your company. But you are also essentially paying for employees who are no longer working for you. And since no company would just lay people off on a whim, facing financial or other difficulties, such decisions could end up putting your company on even worse footing to where you have to cut even more costs and maybe close down. And while the case brought forth does have sympathy to it if they're claims are true, my sympathy also has to lie with all the people still working under the Bioware/ ea banner.
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Post by river82 on Oct 4, 2023 20:33:51 GMT
Huh, In Canada isn't it mandatory? An employee has the right to collect severance pay if they have completed at least 12 consecutive months of continuous employment before their layoff or dismissal resulted in a termination of employment. They are entitled to 2 days' regular wages for each full year that they worked for the employer before their termination of employment. The minimum benefit is 5 days' wages.www.canada.ca/en/services/jobs/workplace/federal-labour-standards/termination.html
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Post by river82 on Oct 5, 2023 0:58:43 GMT
Corporate culture ... I wouldn't say "creeping" into the gaming world, you don't creep in with bulldozers and huge PR campaigns. 10 years ago Bioware supports a dev who was at the company for only a year, now 14 year vets treated like they're disposable.
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Post by General Mahad on Oct 5, 2023 1:29:56 GMT
All tech and entertainment companies turn evil, its just a question of when.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 5, 2023 1:40:51 GMT
See that just adds a whole other level of bizzareness to these events and claims. Sure all things are possible given the principles of IDIC and while we don't have an entire inside seat at the table to know for sure...based on everything we do know do you expect me to believe that BioWare/ ea culture has gotten worse? I doubt it.
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Post by Gileadan on Oct 5, 2023 5:15:56 GMT
Well at least CDPR got better again and took their sweet time with Cyberpunk 2.0 and Phantom Liberty. Pretty good stuff as far as game industry related redemption stories go.
BioWare on the other hand seems to have gone from "we pull teams from other projects to crunch for 18 months" to "we call in external help, fire 50 people with a pittance for severance, then pull in teams from other projects and crunch for 18 months".
BioWare was fed from the cake baked by EA Sports and now they aren't sitting at that table anymore.
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Post by Reznore on Oct 5, 2023 6:26:24 GMT
See that just adds a whole other level of bizzareness to these events and claims. Sure all things are possible given the principles of IDIC and while we don't have an entire inside seat at the table to know for sure...based on everything we do know do you expect me to believe that BioWare/ ea culture has gotten worse? I doubt it. I got a friend who worked 24 years in a car factory. She got fired because she has health issues. 15 years ago the same company would happily pay to send alcoholics on cures and kept them employed. She will get severance though. Next year, because of some change in laws, she would get nothing. I wonder if we're headed into a recession because I'm seeing a lot of sudden firing these days.
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Oct 5, 2023 8:21:51 GMT
"Doubt it." lol, lmao, I get you are a fan of what Bioware produces or used to produce, most of us are, and you want to be optimistic but the reality's staring you in the face.
It's a husk of what it once used to be.
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Post by Solas on Oct 5, 2023 9:33:57 GMT
More info on the case, from Kotaku. kotaku.com/dragon-age-dreadwolf-bioware-layoffs-lawsuit-ea-1850900755"BioWare laid off 50 employees at the end of August. Mary Kirby was one of them. Now her and six other recently laid-off developers are suing BioWare claiming it and parent company Electronic Arts are trying to welsh on their legally owed severance.
In its statement of facts, which were reviewed by Kotaku, an attorney for the group claims that BioWare was only willing to offer laid-off employees two weeks of severance per year of service, rather than the one month commonly awarded under other recent labor cases. The lawsuit also claims that BioWare was unwilling to include the value of health benefits in the severance package, further shortchanging the departing developers who average 14 years of service each. EA reported over $400 million in net income in August, up 23 percent from the year prior. The company bought back $325 million in stock the same month.
A lawyer for the seven laid-off employees, Alex Kennedy, told Kotaku in a phone call that BioWare has so far refused to negotiate better severance packages.
Kennedy also said that some of the laid-off employees were given the impression that asking for the severance they’re owed by law could potentially become a financial burden to the studio and further jeopardize the development of Dreadwolf, a game that’s already had to be reworked and is reportedly overdue.
Kennedy told Kotaku that he originally had over 15 laid-off BioWare employees who were part of the lawsuit, but many bailed, worried about their ability to pay bills and even buy presents for their kids come Christmastime. The existing severance packages, while measly, would still be money in the bank compared to the prospect of a long and drawn out legal fight. It could be a month before BioWare and EA respond to the group’s legal filing, and even longer before the case gets in front of a judge, especially if the companies deploy delay tactics. Kennedy said he’s still hopeful that BioWare will eventually “see the light” and negotiate a settlement.
Interestingly, EA’s proprietary game engine Frostbite is specifically called out in the lawsuit as an important factor in determining how much severance employees are owed. Things like age, years of service, and the difficulty of finding a similar new job are all taken into account under Canadian common law. Kennedy argues that the fact that BioWare’s developers are forced to use EA’s inhouse toolset, which has long been blamed for issues with some of its biggest releases like Mass Effect Andromeda and Anthem, means it could be harder for them to find a new job than developers using third-party tool sets like Unreal Engine and Unity.
The job prospects for game developers are also especially grim-looking right now. A big wave of layoffs has hit the gaming industry in 2023, with companies ranging from Microsoft to Ubisoft shedding staff. Just since the BioWare layoffs in August, several new studios and companies announced cuts. Epic Games announced just last week that it will be laying off over 800 employees. The Fortnite maker has, however, promised them six months of severance and extended health benefits.
EA did not respond to a request for comment.”
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Post by Solas on Oct 5, 2023 9:37:41 GMT
there is also this on Polygon on the Keywords Studios workers (a separate issue) www.polygon.com/23903782/dragon-age-dreadwolf-qa-workers-laid-off-keywords-studios"All of Keywords Studios’ unionized QA workers were laid off from the studio in late September after Dragon Age: Dreadwolf developer BioWare declined to continue its contract in August.
The QA workers, who were contracted to assist with playtesting and quality assurance at BioWare Edmonton, won their union vote in June 2022. All 16 eligible voters said “yes” to joining United Food and Commercial Workers Canada Union, Local No. 401. It was a historic vote, making the group the first games industry union in Canada. Keywords Studios workers were in bargaining with the company when they were laid off following the news of 50 job cuts at BioWare itself.
A UFCW representative told Polygon that 13 people were laid off — everyone supporting BioWare. Liz Corless, Keywords Studios’ global head of marketing, confirmed that 13 Edmonton-based QA workers were laid off.
“We can confirm that regrettably the 13 Edmonton-based staff have now left the business following the end of a fixed term client contract,” Corless wrote in an email.
The group of workers were laid off on Sept. 27. Russwurm added that Keywords Studios has “taken the position there is no more work available.” (Keywords Studios has several QA job postings listed on its website, in Canada and across the world. Many, but not all of these listings, are related to language localization and require specialties that the laid-off workers may not have.)
Russwurm said the union filed an employment standards complaint against Keywords Studios this week. He added that Keywords Studios offered “minimal severance,” which the union is disputing. Severance has not yet been paid out, he said. (Several BioWare employees laid off at that time are currently suing the company for “adequate severance.” These are two separate issues with two separate companies, however, despite being linked to Dragon Age: Dreadwolf.)
Though the unionized QA workers did not yet have a contract with Keywords Studios, they can attempt to negotiate better severance pay.
Keywords Studios is headquartered in Ireland but has more than 20 worldwide offices. The studio was founded in 1998, and does not publish or develop its own games — instead, it provides art, QA, audio, and other development support for other studios, like BioWare."
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Oct 5, 2023 9:59:35 GMT
More info on the case, from Kotaku. "BioWare laid off 50 employees at the end of August. Mary Kirby was one of them. Now her and six other recently laid-off developers are suing BioWare claiming it and parent company Electronic Arts are trying to welsh on their legally owed severance..." Mary Kirby is one of those 7? Pay her and other colleagues what they deserve to get as a former loyal serving Bioware employee. And No there is no mittleground there. Fuck EA and their higher ops Bioware lackeys. I hope that those 7 wins this case and even get more out of that than i hope for.
And speaking of the elephant in the room. I really don´t want see or hear Varric in any upcoming trailer. For final game i guess its already too late.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 5, 2023 11:09:22 GMT
More info on the case, from Kotaku. kotaku.com/dragon-age-dreadwolf-bioware-layoffs-lawsuit-ea-1850900755"BioWare laid off 50 employees at the end of August. Mary Kirby was one of them. Now her and six other recently laid-off developers are suing BioWare claiming it and parent company Electronic Arts are trying to welsh on their legally owed severance.
In its statement of facts, which were reviewed by Kotaku, an attorney for the group claims that BioWare was only willing to offer laid-off employees two weeks of severance per year of service, rather than the one month commonly awarded under other recent labor cases. The lawsuit also claims that BioWare was unwilling to include the value of health benefits in the severance package, further shortchanging the departing developers who average 14 years of service each. EA reported over $400 million in net income in August, up 23 percent from the year prior. The company bought back $325 million in stock the same month.
A lawyer for the seven laid-off employees, Alex Kennedy, told Kotaku in a phone call that BioWare has so far refused to negotiate better severance packages.
Kennedy also said that some of the laid-off employees were given the impression that asking for the severance they’re owed by law could potentially become a financial burden to the studio and further jeopardize the development of Dreadwolf, a game that’s already had to be reworked and is reportedly overdue.
Kennedy told Kotaku that he originally had over 15 laid-off BioWare employees who were part of the lawsuit, but many bailed, worried about their ability to pay bills and even buy presents for their kids come Christmastime. The existing severance packages, while measly, would still be money in the bank compared to the prospect of a long and drawn out legal fight. It could be a month before BioWare and EA respond to the group’s legal filing, and even longer before the case gets in front of a judge, especially if the companies deploy delay tactics. Kennedy said he’s still hopeful that BioWare will eventually “see the light” and negotiate a settlement.
Interestingly, EA’s proprietary game engine Frostbite is specifically called out in the lawsuit as an important factor in determining how much severance employees are owed. Things like age, years of service, and the difficulty of finding a similar new job are all taken into account under Canadian common law. Kennedy argues that the fact that BioWare’s developers are forced to use EA’s inhouse toolset, which has long been blamed for issues with some of its biggest releases like Mass Effect Andromeda and Anthem, means it could be harder for them to find a new job than developers using third-party tool sets like Unreal Engine and Unity.
The job prospects for game developers are also especially grim-looking right now. A big wave of layoffs has hit the gaming industry in 2023, with companies ranging from Microsoft to Ubisoft shedding staff. Just since the BioWare layoffs in August, several new studios and companies announced cuts. Epic Games announced just last week that it will be laying off over 800 employees. The Fortnite maker has, however, promised them six months of severance and extended health benefits.
EA did not respond to a request for comment.” So... 1. I have been half wondering in the back of my head for the last few days whether or not this was a result of cross cultural/ legal standards in regards to differences of local custom. This report seems to confirm that theory, at least in part. Afterall as githcheater brought up the expected severance package in the United States is two weeks...the same two weeks that BioWare apparently offered their said employees which also, in this case flies in the face of Canadian law. However the EA part of it is an american company thus they would be a lot more likely to deal with things from that perspective. And, while this could have its own associated issues, simply be ignorant of the local customs/ laws. This would also explain why the dev from BioWare Houston, an American city, would've felt the same severance package was generous whereas the Canadian ones, after being informed by a lawyer, likely took umbrage and hey...more money. But this is the kind of situation which often results when you get politicians getting heavy handed and sticking their noses in things that they do not understand and hopefully this situation is resolved a lot more quickly and justly then the lawyer is expecting. And EAs motives seem to be one of ignorance and not maliciousness. 2. Meanwhile though despite this the complaints about Frostbite...especially given all the conversation we've had it on the forum...seems more then a little absurd. My increduality radar when it comes to this particular argument is well over 9000 now. Given that A. these devs already have a leg up being professionals within the industry over any new comer. Their years of experience would make it easier to get jobs in the industry over someone trying to break in, or advance into a new position. Them being forced to work on Frostbite is quite irrelevant to this considering they have worked on many engines since then, DA 2 has had its own propritary engine, ME used Unreal, Inquisition and Anthem Frostbite. Essentially, again, if they have a portfoilio of any work and references then they should be able to get work and to be blunt this just sounds like red meat for the anti frostbite crowd. And B. This situation would result no matter what they will do. Companies even change engines all the time and every time there is a risk that any hard earned experience from the previous engine would have to be unlearned...this happened when Bio went from Unreal to Frostbite and is likely to happen again as BioWare moves from Frostbite to Unreal. Which is to say nothing of moving onto new companies especially ones that also use their own proprietary engines, no matter what they do, in any new job, there would be a learning curve with new company policies and new company technologies. Thing is they, being game professionals have to know this, and the thing is their new perspective employers also have to understand that. If the gaming industry doesen't understand, as a general rule, that new employees will need training for their technology that they haven't used before then the industry is in far worse shape then I thought...thus making the statements highly suspect/ illogical. Yes, they may have a case and I hope they get just compensation in accordance with Canadian law and what they are owed but using such poor logic to defend themselves does not do them any credit.
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Post by Solas on Oct 5, 2023 11:18:04 GMT
David Gaider @davidgaider I can't believe I live in a world where BioWare didn't treat the people it let go with every possible courtesy, ones who contributed so much to its past successes... but here we are, I guess. 😔
Caitlin Sullivan Kelly 🌻 @akacaitlin (Lead Writer for SW:TOR, formerly at BioWare) "You know that meme with the two astronauts? The one where the punchline is “always has been”? Yeah."
Caitlin Sullivan Kelly 🌻 @akacaitlin "Also, it’s funny the current leadership team at BW is getting so much flak. Crap rolls downhill. These decisions are more than likely being made due to screw-ups of the previous regime… who is still adored very publicly by fans because of his involvement in past BW projects."
David C. Simon @davidcsimon "When I was laid off (along with many others) from BioWare Austin 10 years ago I remember BWA and EA going out of their way to support us, including generous severance and assistance in looking for new work. Today's BioWare is unrecognisable, and it's heartbreaking."
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Post by river82 on Oct 5, 2023 12:12:33 GMT
If the gaming industry doesen't understand, as a general rule, that new employees will need training for their technology that they haven't used before then the industry is in far worse shape then I thought...thus making the statements highly suspect/ illogical. Yes, they may have a case and I hope they get just compensation in accordance with Canadian law and what they are owed but using such poor logic to defend themselves does not do them any credit. Why take the time to train someone when Unreal is such a common engine that it's just easier to hire someone already familiar :S For example, a lot of CDProjekts new job listing was citing experience with Unreal Engine, or more specifically unreal engine 4 or 5, with at least one listing I saw for a senior position citing the need for "deep knowledge of unreal engine". Training someone not already at the company sounds like a waste of money in many instances. gamejobs.co/Game-Programmer-Unreal-Engine-at-CD-Projekt-3104Unreal Engine 5 is honestly a game changer and a lot of companies are going to be using it. A lot of developers will be familiar with that engine and they'll likely find it easier to switch between studios. Disney is using Unreal Engine in their films. Also apparently Facebook was hiring devs with Unreal experience to help develop Meta. I assume knowledge of the engine will give you an advantage
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Post by DragonRacer on Oct 5, 2023 12:31:37 GMT
Well, one thing is for certain - those who theorized that BioWare might attempt to re-hire these folks later down the road if they became more financially solvent or as occasional contract work have been torpedoed by this. No company is going to associate in the future with an employee who sued them, so Mary and the other 6 are forever gone after this. Also speaks to the amount of bad blood in the water between the veterans and BioWare. Woof.
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Post by Croatsky on Oct 5, 2023 12:52:52 GMT
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Amateur Reporter
Old BSN veteran, I guess.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: CroGamer002
Posts: 2,288 Likes: 5,225
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Amateur Reporter
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Dec 11, 2024 23:24:17 GMT
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Croatsky
Old BSN veteran, I guess.
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croatsky
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
CroGamer002
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Post by Croatsky on Oct 5, 2023 13:02:43 GMT
David Gaider @davidgaiderI can't believe I live in a world where BioWare didn't treat the people it let go with every possible courtesy, ones who contributed so much to its past successes... but here we are, I guess. 😔 Caitlin Sullivan Kelly 🌻 @akacaitlin (Lead Writer for SW:TOR, formerly at BioWare)"You know that meme with the two astronauts? The one where the punchline is “always has been”? Yeah." Caitlin Sullivan Kelly 🌻 @akacaitlin"Also, it’s funny the current leadership team at BW is getting so much flak. Crap rolls downhill. These decisions are more than likely being made due to screw-ups of the previous regime… who is still adored very publicly by fans because of his involvement in past BW projects." David C. Simon @davidcsimon"When I was laid off (along with many others) from BioWare Austin 10 years ago I remember BWA and EA going out of their way to support us, including generous severance and assistance in looking for new work. Today's BioWare is unrecognisable, and it's heartbreaking." Caitlin is spot on.
This is very bad, but old BW heads should shut the fuck up because they created this mess.
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cuthbertbeckett
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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cuthbertbeckett
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Oct 5, 2023 16:16:23 GMT
Well, one thing is for certain - those who theorized that BioWare might attempt to re-hire these folks later down the road if they became more financially solvent or as occasional contract work have been torpedoed by this. No company is going to associate in the future with an employee who sued them, so Mary and the other 6 are forever gone after this. Also speaks to the amount of bad blood in the water between the veterans and BioWare. Woof. Even if Bioware / EA wants them back i highly doubt that besides a few who desperate needs a job those people won´t return. Why should anyone work for a company like Bioware or even work more as the pure minimum? But but the fear of getting fired? Guess what it doesn´t matter for Bioware / EA if who are this kind of a person or like Mary and her colleagues who were loyal and long serving employees who even sacrifice their personal time to please this company.
Who knows if Bioware survived Dreadwolf but one thing is crystal clear there will be a massive exodus after this release or many devs will looking for other job opportunities. I won´t blame them.
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You'll be peeling goddamn potatoes for the rest of your miserable excuse for a military career!
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Post by General Mahad on Oct 5, 2023 16:37:23 GMT
Mark Darrah came back as a consultant despite criticizing BioWare for its toxic environment. Maybe the same can happen for the BioWare veterans if management gets desperate enough.
EA brought back the old developers of Command and Conquer for the Remaster despite killing their studio.
Although, I have a feeling that EA/BioWare will hire a bunch of substandard contractors and developers and then close shop after Dreadwolf or ME4 fails to impress.
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cuthbertbeckett
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 2,173 Likes: 2,391
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cuthbertbeckett
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Oct 5, 2023 16:47:23 GMT
Mark Darrah came back as a consultant despite criticizing BioWare for its toxic environment. Maybe the same can happen for the BioWare veterans if management gets desperate enough. Maybe this has been an offer you couldn´t refuse or maybe the things weren´t that bad back then. They don´t work for EA directly. They are devs from Petroglyph and this game studio has been contracted by EA. This isn´t the same situation. I don´t think that EA will Bioware another chance if Dreadwolf is not a success story. This is it. Also ME 4 could be done someone else.
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