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Post by General Mahad on Oct 5, 2023 16:54:21 GMT
Mark Darrah came back as a consultant despite criticizing BioWare for its toxic environment. Maybe the same can happen for the BioWare veterans if management gets desperate enough. Maybe this has been an offer you couldn´t refuse or maybe the things weren´t that bad back then. They don´t work for EA directly. They are devs from Petroglyph and this game studio has been contracted by EA. This isn´t the same situation.
Maybe not, but if the vets form their own studio and down the road EA contracts them for work on an Origins remaster/remake do you think they will tell EA to pound sand?
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Oct 5, 2023 16:59:42 GMT
Maybe not, but if the vets form their own studio and down the road EA contracts them for work on an Origins remaster/remake do you think they will tell EA to pound sand? No because Money is Money and they still would work for a studio which for example Casey Hudson operates.
By the way i don´t think that EA is that interested in DAO Remake. Maybe a DAI remaster but DAO or DA2 would be too much of a risk.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 5, 2023 19:00:56 GMT
I mean they probably aren't wrong. Any company facing enough financial difficulty to consider layoffs won't be helped by more costs getting added to their plate.
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Post by sjpelke on Oct 5, 2023 19:22:38 GMT
I REALLY hope they can get through this and get the financial support they need to finish DAD and be able to get back on their feet financially (as in proving their worth to EA). Bioware to me always seemed to me like a disorganized pool of creativity which kept them afloat as in up until now. SWTOR is no longer in Bioware's care which to me was a sign of sorts of things not being/going as they should be...... www.theverge.com/2023/6/27/23775530/star-wars-the-old-republic-broadsword-bioware Please dodge the bullet! I would really like to see DAD being finished and released by the original developer.
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Post by river82 on Oct 5, 2023 19:41:36 GMT
I REALLY hope they can get through this and get the financial support they need to finish DAD and be able to get back on their feet financially (as in proving their worth to EA). Bioware to me always seemed to me like a disorganized pool of creativity which kept them afloat as in up until now. SWTOR is no longer in Bioware's care which to me was a sign of sorts of things not being/going as they should be...... www.theverge.com/2023/6/27/23775530/star-wars-the-old-republic-broadsword-bioware Please dodge the bullet! I would really like to see DAD being finished and released by the original developer. Bioware will almost certainly release DAD, that's really not what people are worried about. It's more their future after DAD that has people concerned.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Oct 5, 2023 20:02:54 GMT
Bioware will almost certainly release DAD, that's really not what people are worried about. It's more their future after DAD that has people concerned. Besides all terrible stuff what had happened within Bioware they will very likely (sure you can´t rule for 100%) "finish" (Edit maybe i should use word ship) Dreadwolf. And there is already much money put in Dreadwolf so if EA isn´t that crazy as Sega with Hyenas they won´t cancel Dreadwolf.
But after Dreadwolf? Well if it flops like Andromeda and Anthem well when Bioware has no future and will be close. If DAD is a success will live for more years but still will lose good people because many would leave for better jobs.
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Post by RelevantRevenant on Oct 5, 2023 20:50:26 GMT
Even if Dreadwolf ships and makes good bank, I feel uncertain about BioWare's future after DA:D. Its development seems to have been nothing but a struggle. And now, after EA reshuffled its assets, I suspect BioWare has to start making profit regularly since they aren't being carried by EA Sports anymore. Dragon Age and Mass Effect with microtransactions? Live service? Unless DA:D does unbelievably well after it's released, I think BioWare will keep struggling. Of course I'd prefer to be wrong, but I fear I'm not.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Oct 5, 2023 21:01:45 GMT
Even if Dreadwolf ships and makes good bank, I feel uncertain about BioWare's future after DA:D. Its development seems to have been nothing but a struggle. And now, after EA reshuffled its assets, I suspect BioWare has to start making profit regularly since they aren't being carried by EA Sports anymore. Dragon Age and Mass Effect with microtransactions? Live service? Unless DA:D does unbelievably well after it's released, I think BioWare will keep struggling. Of course I'd prefer to be wrong, but I fear I'm not. Or maybe Bioware is making a new licence game perhaps another Marvel game. Or like Criterion Games is also supporting DICE with Battlefield aka making / helping to create the singleplayer campagne.
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Post by Croatsky on Oct 5, 2023 21:12:17 GMT
Well, one thing is for certain - those who theorized that BioWare might attempt to re-hire these folks later down the road if they became more financially solvent or as occasional contract work have been torpedoed by this. No company is going to associate in the future with an employee who sued them, so Mary and the other 6 are forever gone after this. Also speaks to the amount of bad blood in the water between the veterans and BioWare. Woof. Even if Bioware / EA wants them back i highly doubt that besides a few who desperate needs a job those people won´t return. Why should anyone work for a company like Bioware or even work more as the pure minimum? But but the fear of getting fired? Guess what it doesn´t matter for Bioware / EA if who are this kind of a person or like Mary and her colleagues who were loyal and long serving employees who even sacrifice their personal time to please this company.
Who knows if Bioware survived Dreadwolf but one thing is crystal clear there will be a massive exodus after this release or many devs will looking for other job opportunities. I won´t blame them.
Exodus to where? Mass lay offs are happening all across gaming and tech industry.
Moving to smaller studios is risky, even indy studios are often driven to financial ruin and chaotic management. Forming own studio is a huge risk, as well you'd need a capital to create such a thing.
Unionization is probably the way to go, but that is also fraught with risks.
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Post by Croatsky on Oct 5, 2023 21:16:44 GMT
I mean they probably aren't wrong. Any company facing enough financial difficulty to consider layoffs won't be helped by more costs getting added to their plate. While I understand BW Edmonton needs to balance the budget, I still find it inexcusable to guilt trip people into this.
As well it led to burning bridges and it is highly unlikely BW Edmonton will be able to rehire anyone after this, if Dreadwolf comes off as a success.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Oct 5, 2023 21:21:29 GMT
Exodus to where? Mass lay offs are happening all across gaming and tech industry. Movie or mobile games industry? Or do something complete different if its plays the bills. What risks?
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Post by Croatsky on Oct 5, 2023 21:31:55 GMT
Movie or mobile games industry? Or do something complete different if its plays the bills.
???
You can't be serious.
Mobile games industry is the worst of the worst in video gaming industry, while movie industry is in shaky state too. Also only a small portion of video game devs have skillsets that can translate for movie industry.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Oct 5, 2023 21:49:18 GMT
I am serious. If it pays the bills and get the respect why not. And Epics Unreal Engine is not that uncommon in the movie industry. Or again they could find jobs outside this whole tech industry.
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Post by General Mahad on Oct 6, 2023 0:21:35 GMT
You think anyone is going to give BioWare a license or trust them with anything after Andromeda, Anthem and now Dreadwolf? No, they are stuck with their IPs only. That being said, there can be a way for BioWare to get a somewhat stable revenue stream: reboot ME3 multiplayer.
ME3’s MP was BioWare’s most successful online project and I don’t know why EA/BioWare did not greenlight for a reboot. All they have to do is make it free to play, add PvP and add more maps/modes. If I had the option, I would have made an eras mode where you can fight in the Krogan Rebellions, Morning War, First Contact, etc.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 6, 2023 1:34:12 GMT
Even if Dreadwolf ships and makes good bank, I feel uncertain about BioWare's future after DA:D. Its development seems to have been nothing but a struggle. And now, after EA reshuffled its assets, I suspect BioWare has to start making profit regularly since they aren't being carried by EA Sports anymore. Dragon Age and Mass Effect with microtransactions? Live service? Unless DA:D does unbelievably well after it's released, I think BioWare will keep struggling. Of course I'd prefer to be wrong, but I fear I'm not. Keep in mind that 1. EA has now said quite openly and has followed through on recognizing that Single Player games has a niche in their overall portfolio and does open a market to them from the success of Jedi Fallen Order and presumably Jedi Survivor. Now this brings up its own set of issues because the lack of live service elements in such games don't make them too profitable long term, and thus the EA money counters/ shareholders could look at them as important...but not as financially viable as say a full on MP/ LS title like Madden. This could give BioWare the lisence to make 'smaller' games again but that could also easily have been the motivation behind these layoffs 'well if you are going to be making smaller games then you are going to have to have a smaller staff because it makes no sense to have a large staff for a smaller game'. And in my experience big mega corps tend to overcompensate when it comes to these sorts of things. Plus without DLC/ other live service elements included then we will see the expectation for a faster turn around. WHich is probably a good thing for us the consumer if we care about getting brand new games, but could be bad on the dev side. 2. While we have yet to see a Dragon Age/ Mass Effect live service game, and while BioWare's attempts at one have been mixed if not really struggled, we have seen them have some success with having live service elements within their mostly SP games. While the industry could be backing off of such things we have seen ME 3 MP with microtransactions and fairly regular updates, we have seen every single BioWare game get DLC since ME 1...with the exception of Andromeda. While such things tend to have mixed feelings within the gaming community from what I've seen the BioWare DLCs are generally some of my favorite, and look fairly well regarded with people being shocked around here that Andromeda did not get one. We don't know about any DLC plans with Dreadwolf but it would certainly be possible that any new shuffling of EA management could see them take another swing at a seperate MP mode or DLC to help them stay profitable in the future. 3. Much more pie int he sky but Darah's ask him anything did have an interesting conversation when it came to mobile games. Not sure EA will go for it and it does have its own issues but I think it could be a good idea for EA to have a smaller studio either make a mobile game or a smaller live service type Dragon Age game as a way of potentially being a way for the IP, and maybe BioWare itself, to make money in the interim between Dreadwolf and hopefully the next ME. Now such a company may not exist with the time and resources to do such a game and EA, given what is happenign with EA sports, might not find it kosher to have Bio supported in such a way...but the idea is an interesting one.
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Post by Croatsky on Oct 6, 2023 8:10:45 GMT
You think anyone is going to give BioWare a license or trust them with anything after Andromeda, Anthem and now Dreadwolf? No, they are stuck with their IPs only. That being said, there can be a way for BioWare to get a somewhat stable revenue stream: reboot ME3 multiplayer. ME3’s MP was BioWare’s most successful online project and I don’t know why EA/BioWare did not greenlight for a reboot. All they have to do is make it free to play, add PvP and add more maps/modes. If I had the option, I would have made an eras mode where you can fight in the Krogan Rebellions, Morning War, First Contact, etc. This is incredibly silly, licensed games hardly look into quality studios. Getting BioWare to do license game would be a huge win for whoever licenses. Reason why it won't happen is because BW has no desire to do anything but their own IPs, all the while licenses are extremely expensive. For example, EA gave up on Star Wars monopoly because they barely earned anything out of it after Disney got its share.
As for ME3 MP, no. That chance passed with MELE not having it and later BioWare terminated microtransactions for original ME3. Why? Because monetization system is potentially illegal in EU.
Also Mass Effect team might actually be safe budget wise thanks to MELE, it's Dragon Age team that is in a mess. Afterall all of lay offs came from Dragon Age team, while all Mass Effect team did was transfer some people to them to fill up some gaps.
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Post by river82 on Oct 6, 2023 8:28:34 GMT
Also Mass Effect team might actually be safe budget wise thanks to MELE, it's Dragon Age team that is in a mess. Afterall all of lay offs came from Dragon Age team, while all Mass Effect team did was transfer some people to them to fill up some gaps. Same team now probably. Both Edmonton. For example, there's only maybe 1 writer in Bioware remaining that has worked on a ME title (check the ME3 or Andromeda credits.) After DA the devs will likely just shift over and start full production on ME5 (now that they can't dilly dally for 10 years using SWTOR money).
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Post by fairdragon on Oct 6, 2023 8:48:06 GMT
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Post by fairdragon on Oct 6, 2023 9:11:45 GMT
I don't know severance packages remain sort of a schroedingers business package. On the one hand they're fairly logical and a nice way to honor your employees who've served in your company. But you are also essentially paying for employees who are no longer working for you. And since no company would just lay people off on a whim, facing financial or other difficulties, such decisions could end up putting your company on even worse footing to where you have to cut even more costs and maybe close down. And while the case brought forth does have sympathy to it if they're claims are true, my sympathy also has to lie with all the people still working under the Bioware/ ea banner. The problem is the management. Saying the company have no money. But they get a more than good payment. I only belive that a company have no money when the managment get less payment.
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Post by Croatsky on Oct 6, 2023 10:40:15 GMT
I don't know severance packages remain sort of a schroedingers business package. On the one hand they're fairly logical and a nice way to honor your employees who've served in your company. But you are also essentially paying for employees who are no longer working for you. And since no company would just lay people off on a whim, facing financial or other difficulties, such decisions could end up putting your company on even worse footing to where you have to cut even more costs and maybe close down. And while the case brought forth does have sympathy to it if they're claims are true, my sympathy also has to lie with all the people still working under the Bioware/ ea banner. The problem is the management. Saying the company have no money. But they get a more than good payment. I only belive that a company have no money when the managment get less payment.
Sorry, management are workers too and they too have a right to fight for own material gains.
Issue is power is more imbalanced in their favour when it comes to that.
Also even if they were to go for a pay cuts, at best they might save couple of jobs out of 50. Truth is, if you want to save jobs everyone has to accept pay cuts. Not something anyone is willing to do.
Also the whole pay cuts thing in Japan, which some people have mentioned in past here, is because Japan has laws that prevents firing employees unless company exhausts all options to refinance. This law also have major negative side effect as it then leads to companies to instead put certain staff into dead end positions, with pointless repetitive works, as well isolating and toxic work environments to get them to quit instead of getting fired, so paying up severance packages.
Which is also funny to bring up because while BioWare in past had honoured severances packages and treated laid off staff with highest gentle care, that was done AFTER they burned them out over the years due to abysmal management and crunch time. We are hearing nothing about mismanagement nor any hint of development hell with Dreadwolf, as Anthem was the final straw for BioWare to get it's shit together. However combined with covid lockdowns and reboot to SP only, it is clear changes for better work environment has slowed things down and BioWare is running out of money.
BioWare is quite clearly fucked due to past management major mistakes and they only have bad options now to keep the company going. However guilt tripping laid off staff is still a dick move.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 6, 2023 11:16:59 GMT
The problem is the management. Saying the company have no money. But they get a more than good payment. I only belive that a company have no money when the managment get less payment.
Sorry, management are workers too and they too have a right to fight for own material gains.
Issue is power is more imbalanced in their favour when it comes to that.
Also even if they were to go for a pay cuts, at best they might save couple of jobs out of 50. Truth is, if you want to save jobs everyone has to accept pay cuts. Not something anyone is willing to do.
Also the whole pay cuts thing in Japan, which some people have mentioned in past here, is because Japan has laws that prevents firing employees unless company exhausts all options to refinance. This law also have major negative side effect as it then leads to companies to instead put certain staff into dead end positions, with pointless repetitive works, as well isolating and toxic work environments to get them to quit instead of getting fired, so paying up severance packages.
Which is also funny to bring up because while BioWare in past had honoured severances packages and treated laid off staff with highest gentle care, that was done AFTER they burned them out over the years due to abysmal management and crunch time. We are hearing nothing about mismanagement nor any hint of development hell with Dreadwolf, as Anthem was the final straw for BioWare to get it's shit together. However combined with covid lockdowns and reboot to SP only, it is clear changes for better work environment has slowed things down and BioWare is running out of money.
BioWare is quite clearly fucked due to past management major mistakes and they only have bad options now to keep the company going. However guilt tripping laid off staff is still a dick move.
While the temptation certainly exists to have opinion skew towards the negative...and have news like this just make their prospects look bleak, for obvious reasons...I think there is a ring of truth to this. Afterall it seems like the devs are aware on some level of the commentary surrounding their game, whether or not because they are professionals so they know what to expect, or they actually have read enough of it to know...but a lot of the commentary on X and the general interwebz have remained almost universally reassuring/ good. Like they know how this news has to look so they are all talking about how good the game has been going, at least to this point. Of course as I've speculated this also comes with its own issues but it is still quite posible this is true...and the leaks also have doubled down on this. As far as legacy, well a legacy can leak out for years. Whatever the issues have been and whoever is responsible it is clear that someone in BioWare's or EAs management team from years past stunk on ice and made horrible decision after horrible decision. The company may never recover from it, but as much as people love their fall stories, redemption stories are even better.
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Post by General Mahad on Oct 6, 2023 11:42:44 GMT
You think anyone is going to give BioWare a license or trust them with anything after Andromeda, Anthem and now Dreadwolf? No, they are stuck with their IPs only. That being said, there can be a way for BioWare to get a somewhat stable revenue stream: reboot ME3 multiplayer. ME3’s MP was BioWare’s most successful online project and I don’t know why EA/BioWare did not greenlight for a reboot. All they have to do is make it free to play, add PvP and add more maps/modes. If I had the option, I would have made an eras mode where you can fight in the Krogan Rebellions, Morning War, First Contact, etc. This is incredibly silly, licensed games hardly look into quality studios. Getting BioWare to do license game would be a huge win for whoever licenses. Reason why it won't happen is because BW has no desire to do anything but their own IPs, all the while licenses are extremely expensive. For example, EA gave up on Star Wars monopoly because they barely earned anything out of it after Disney got its share.
As for ME3 MP, no. That chance passed with MELE not having it and later BioWare terminated microtransactions for original ME3. Why? Because monetization system is potentially illegal in EU.
Also Mass Effect team might actually be safe budget wise thanks to MELE, it's Dragon Age team that is in a mess. Afterall all of lay offs came from Dragon Age team, while all Mass Effect team did was transfer some people to them to fill up some gaps.
Then why the example of BioWare doing licensed games if the licenses are too expensive? BioWare is hemorrhaging money as it is and management/EA is looking for any excuse to axe more senior developers. BioWare is better off with creating mobile games of their own IPs then an expensive licensed title that will be stuck in development hell for years. ME3 had loot boxes which are illegal. Paid DLC for cosmetics, maps and modes should be fine as long as you don’t use in game currency.
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Post by fairdragon on Oct 6, 2023 11:56:30 GMT
The problem is the management. Saying the company have no money. But they get a more than good payment. I only belive that a company have no money when the managment get less payment.
Sorry, management are workers too and they too have a right to fight for own material gains.
Issue is power is more imbalanced in their favour when it comes to that.
Also even if they were to go for a pay cuts, at best they might save couple of jobs out of 50. Truth is, if you want to save jobs everyone has to accept pay cuts. Not something anyone is willing to do.
Also the whole pay cuts thing in Japan, which some people have mentioned in past here, is because Japan has laws that prevents firing employees unless company exhausts all options to refinance. This law also have major negative side effect as it then leads to companies to instead put certain staff into dead end positions, with pointless repetitive works, as well isolating and toxic work environments to get them to quit instead of getting fired, so paying up severance packages.
Which is also funny to bring up because while BioWare in past had honoured severances packages and treated laid off staff with highest gentle care, that was done AFTER they burned them out over the years due to abysmal management and crunch time. We are hearing nothing about mismanagement nor any hint of development hell with Dreadwolf, as Anthem was the final straw for BioWare to get it's shit together. However combined with covid lockdowns and reboot to SP only, it is clear changes for better work environment has slowed things down and BioWare is running out of money.
BioWare is quite clearly fucked due to past management major mistakes and they only have bad options now to keep the company going. However guilt tripping laid off staff is still a dick move.
Maybe it is me don't understanding the sturcture. In many companys the management get payed the double, tripple or more of normal workers. So i speak of the peak. I know they aren't enough to save many. But it would be enough to not let go so much good and importend workers. They will need them for the next game. Especially because management is to blame for this situation
It is okay as long the company have money and stand strong. But if you are in a difficult spot you musst find a way to survive. And letting your best employees go is very short-sighted. Maybe those who say I'm too soft for business are right.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 7, 2023 1:38:54 GMT
You think anyone is going to give BioWare a license or trust them with anything after Andromeda, Anthem and now Dreadwolf? No, they are stuck with their IPs only. That being said, there can be a way for BioWare to get a somewhat stable revenue stream: reboot ME3 multiplayer. One thing I've learned over the years, is that gamers can be very forgiving. All it takes is one great game and people will easily forget the controversies.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 7, 2023 1:45:04 GMT
You think anyone is going to give BioWare a license or trust them with anything after Andromeda, Anthem and now Dreadwolf? No, they are stuck with their IPs only. That being said, there can be a way for BioWare to get a somewhat stable revenue stream: reboot ME3 multiplayer. One thing I've learned over the years, is that gamers can be very forgiving. All it takes is one great game and people will easily forget the controversies. I think in this context people in general tend to be pretty forgiving. Moralist outrage will only carry the majority of people so long and all it takes for things to get good and a general community to start liking things for them to either A. forgive/ accept it as redemption or B. make excuses for why suddenly this thing is good. Just look at Star Wars as a great example for that last one. On the flip side though gamers do paradoxically have a very long memory and some very weird perceptions of things. Some video game industry trends aren't really applicable anymore but people act like they still do apply. EA closing down studios on a whim is the one that most instantly comes to mind here.
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