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Post by Vortex13 on Nov 22, 2023 13:18:00 GMT
A big problem with Andromeda's take on the Hero's Journey is that our protagonist isn't really the hero of the story, SAM is.
Every major event and discovery in the game has already either already been found by someone else or just magically solved by the unrestrained AI swimming around in our heads. Ryder is the most wet noodle of a character that BioWare has created.
Without Alec Ryder's nepotism and SAM being the game's sonic screwdriver the twins would barely qualify as a background NPC in any other title.
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Post by Noxluxe on Nov 22, 2023 15:22:58 GMT
The ME2 companion roster is my least favorite in the entire franchise. I disliked or couldn’t care less about most of them. ME2 definitely banks the hardest on the player being open to morally ambivalent characters. And not in the 'enemy mine' sense, but the 'sitting down and having a drink with this asshole because you're already getting to know everyone else and might as well' sense. Right from the start Miranda is the zealous 'ends justify the means' extremist, which is something you know you have to work your way through with a character like that if you want to turn them into a redemption story, even if you never quite get her so far turned around as to regret what she's been party to. But the game almost explicitly tells you to like Jacob, who is complicit in everything she is with far less personal justification and comes across way more irresponsible for not recognizing it, just because he's a bit more affable and superficially shares Shepard's martial values. That assumption, that joining a terrorist organization in order to feel more useful is just "his approach" to heroism, is seriously jarring if you go into the game intending to play a Shepard with actually strong and firm ethics. Same goes for Joker, and for Garrus' unapologetic vigilantism even though that moral question was a big part of his theme in the first game, and the sheer ludicrousness of Samara and her order. Mordin's relationship with his past actions can be spun into a very touching redemption story too, likewise for Jack, and Thane already regrets the life he's lived regardless of Shepard's opinion (though I think you can beat on that horse a little more? Never played a Shepard who saw any point trying to have that conversation, everything considered). But some Squadmates automatically getting a complete pass from Shepard for pretty amoral behavior seriously confuses the sense that you're actually working to get on the same page as all these people. Especially when that process is the main crux of the game. Think I'd still say that they're my favorite roster because a lot of the conversations really are that good, and I am very much a 'let's have a drink with this asshole' kind of guy. But it's definitely not perfectly executed, and the issues there hurt Shepard's relationships with those characters and make them feel needlessly and inexplicably unreasonable and unethical when it didn't have to be that way. ME3 is my favorite game story-wise. ME1's just feels too much like a vanilla fantasy RPG in space, ME2's focus is elsewhere, and Andromeda's gets points for having a lot of interesting premises and not feeling as constrained as the others, but lacks serious imagination in how it's executed. To the point where it's my least favorite despite having a pretty strong beginning. Kind of the opposite of ME3's. And the squamates mostly feel like packaged microwave noodles after the trilogy's restaurant-grade ramen. No substance or seasoning.
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Post by lavigne on Nov 22, 2023 15:29:24 GMT
Re ME2 characters, let's not forget the greatest face-off in the whole trilogy.....Zaeed vs Claw game. Even just thinking about that rn makes me laugh!
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Post by SwobyJ on Nov 22, 2023 15:41:48 GMT
A big problem with Andromeda's take on the Hero's Journey is that our protagonist isn't really the hero of the story, SAM is. Every major event and discovery in the game has already either already been found by someone else or just magically solved by the unrestrained AI swimming around in our heads. Ryder is the most wet noodle of a character that BioWare has created. Without Alec Ryder's nepotism and SAM being the game's sonic screwdriver the twins would barely qualify as a background NPC in any other title. This could be okay if they leaned into it and also made it a substantial part of the roleplay, including many areas where Ryder *could* show their own will into power, even as SAM threatens their sense of autonomy. The 'not as good as Shepard' (at the start at least) is not a bad idea at all, in my opinion. But I feel MEA shied away from any of its more interesting story elements.
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Post by Guardian on Nov 22, 2023 18:03:19 GMT
This could be okay if they leaned into it and also made it a substantial part of the roleplay, including many areas where Ryder *could* show their own will into power, even as SAM threatens their sense of autonomy. The 'not as good as Shepard' (at the start at least) is not a bad idea at all, in my opinion. But I feel MEA shied away from any of its more interesting story elements. Yeah, a fresh character coming into their own is a good idea, if done right. I never felt like Ryder came into their own. They just...stayed the same throughout the game. There was potential there but it wasn't executed properly. Like, in Origins, you are starting off as some no-name, but you feel like you grow into the role of "Hero of Ferelden". It doesn't help either when the first third of the game, you are constantly compared to Alec, and despite being told, "You stepped up!"....no, it doesn't really feel like we've earned anything. If others felt differently, that's perfectly fine; I just didn't feel any sort of growth as a character. It's why I think a fresh start with a new character (Not Shepard or Ryder) is good for the next installment. Hopefully, they can learn from what didn't work and try to go back to what did, without the need to rely on Shepard.
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Post by mtheillusive on Nov 22, 2023 18:43:47 GMT
I dunno...I enjoyed the character arc for Ryder in my game.
Started off as someone who was innocent but smart, and clearly good as a recon specialist, discovering all the details of their situation at Habitat 7. Then reluctantly became the Pathfinder, quickly realized just how bad thigs we're and how full of it the leadership was, and knew that their first outpost on Eos was going to be a military one. She then built another outpost on Voeld without permission, found out about exaltation, learned all about Angaran culture on Harval, reunited with the Krogan on Eladen, and fixed Kadara. She quickly realize all these people are full of it, including the Angara, and had the Initative take over the water on Eladen, as well as shot Reyes and let Sloane take over.
And then she landed back on Eos, raged a mini war on the Roakar and Kett and Remnant all at the same time, told Verand to sit her ass down and for Liam to take a seat, saved a baby being born, blew Akksul's brains out, helped out with all the stuff on the broken planet asteriod spot, knew that discovery is more important than some annoying broad who's been trying kill her and Peebee for weeks and shot her to death, saved Raeka and told Drax to deal with it, told Cora to know her role cause she understood Sarissa's journey, broke orders and went to Khi Tasria, discovered and saved Meridian, killed the Archon. And chose Raeka for ambassador.
And then kept the Salarian Kett data, kept the germ warfare data to use on the Roaker and Angara and Kett if they get out of line, had Drax drop that guy off to his demise, had Knight shot in the head in broad daylight (but was nice enough to help out her kid before hand), then immediately went back to buisness and had Addison's assistant exiled to parts unknown. Then played soccer and planted gardens to close things out.
I found my Ryder interesting...and just as Renegade as ME1 Shepard lol
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Post by lavigne on Nov 22, 2023 18:48:55 GMT
Probably didn't help that a lot of people would just rather have played as Alec Ryder.... N7, voiced by Clancy Brown, yes please!
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Post by SwobyJ on Nov 22, 2023 20:37:20 GMT
Oh if only they had the guts to put us as a very middle aged protagonist.
Ryder had an arc, it was just one that I felt I wanted only the first half of a more compelling game to cover. Game generally seemed happy to bore me in ways that only the more dumb ME1 UNC and ME2 N7 missions did.
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Post by Gileadan on Nov 22, 2023 21:40:17 GMT
For a game about discovery and exploration Andromeda was way too much "to boldly go where someone else had gone before".
And for my personal taste it overdid the space magic by a lot. Eos is a an irradiated hell hole when you get there but when you activate the alien Jesus tech the entire planet is 100% viable. Planet wide ecological cleansing and resurrection.
I also never understood why we bothered with the Krogan in their sinkhole or Kadara. It's an entire planet. We could settle thousands of miles away and just leave the only other inhabited speck on that entire world alone.
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Post by mtheillusive on Nov 22, 2023 22:15:53 GMT
For a game about discovery and exploration Andromeda was way too much "to boldly go where someone else had gone before". And for my personal taste it overdid the space magic by a lot. Eos is a an irradiated hell hole when you get there but when you activate the alien Jesus tech the entire planet is 100% viable. Planet wide ecological cleansing and resurrection. I also never understood why we bothered with the Krogan in their sinkhole or Kadara. It's an entire planet. We could settle thousands of miles away and just leave the only other inhabited speck on that entire world alone. Ok yes that is one thing that definitely bothered me...there is an ENTIRE PLANET. Eos ALONE should be enough for the entire Initiative to settle. You can have both a military AND science outpost. And why does H3o7-C or whatever its called have a convenient Remnant Tiller and not a destroyed Vault? It literally makes no sense.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 23, 2023 0:01:31 GMT
I didn't mind little Ryder being different from Shepard, but I was surprised how much of an incompetent person he/she was throughout the game. With the time in the circus, I mean the Alliance, and having a father as a former N7, one would believe little Ryder would have more common sense then they present in the game. It appears what the little one learned went in one ear and out the other. If anything Ryder could start up his/her version of the keystone cops in Andromeda.
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Post by hulluliini on Nov 23, 2023 10:37:39 GMT
I can see the appeal of a character who you feel could really be you because they're not a tough experienced hero from the start and can't deliver witty one liners in every conversation. But it seems to me that it was specifically the opportunity to play as the super soldier Shepard that was a large part of the appeal in the trilogy.
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Post by hulluliini on Nov 23, 2023 10:42:59 GMT
The ME2 companion roster is my least favorite in the entire franchise. I disliked or couldn’t care less about most of them. ME2 definitely banks the hardest on the player being open to morally ambivalent characters. And not in the 'enemy mine' sense, but the 'sitting down and having a drink with this asshole because you're already getting to know everyone else and might as well' sense. Right from the start Miranda is the zealous 'ends justify the means' extremist, which is something you know you have to work your way through with a character like that if you want to turn them into a redemption story, even if you never quite get her so far turned around as to regret what she's been party to. But the game almost explicitly tells you to like Jacob, who is complicit in everything she is with far less personal justification and comes across way more irresponsible for not recognizing it, just because he's a bit more affable and superficially shares Shepard's martial values. That assumption, that joining a terrorist organization in order to feel more useful is just "his approach" to heroism, is seriously jarring if you go into the game intending to play a Shepard with actually strong and firm ethics. Same goes for Joker, and for Garrus' unapologetic vigilantism even though that moral question was a big part of his theme in the first game, and the sheer ludicrousness of Samara and her order. Mordin's relationship with his past actions can be spun into a very touching redemption story too, likewise for Jack, and Thane already regrets the life he's lived regardless of Shepard's opinion (though I think you can beat on that horse a little more? Never played a Shepard who saw any point trying to have that conversation, everything considered). But some Squadmates automatically getting a complete pass from Shepard for pretty amoral behavior seriously confuses the sense that you're actually working to get on the same page as all these people. Especially when that process is the main crux of the game. Think I'd still say that they're my favorite roster because a lot of the conversations really are that good, and I am very much a 'let's have a drink with this asshole' kind of guy. But it's definitely not perfectly executed, and the issues there hurt Shepard's relationships with those characters and make them feel needlessly and inexplicably unreasonable and unethical when it didn't have to be that way. ME3 is my favorite game story-wise. ME1's just feels too much like a vanilla fantasy RPG in space, ME2's focus is elsewhere, and Andromeda's gets points for having a lot of interesting premises and not feeling as constrained as the others, but lacks serious imagination in how it's executed. To the point where it's my least favorite despite having a pretty strong beginning. Kind of the opposite of ME3's. And the squamates mostly feel like packaged microwave noodles after the trilogy's restaurant-grade ramen. No substance or seasoning. I'm not sure the point was that you are supposed or able to "convert" a crew that consists of perfect killing machines. TIM found you people who are the best of the best in the killing business, with varying combat styles and strengths. That's the sole reason they were picked for you. In order to work as a team, yes, you have to get along, but there is zero need to understand their motivations or backgrounds or whatever, or convert them to purely good guys. You just need to beat the Collectors and they don't need to be "good" in order to accomplish that. Was it Kaiden/Ashley who says in ME3 that TIM surrounded Shepard with sympathetic characters to prevent you from seeing the evil in Cerberus? I suppose the writers thought everyone would just go along with it without any reservations. But the game doesn't give us any choice in the matter. You either kowtow to TIM or you don't play the game.
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Post by Noxluxe on Nov 23, 2023 14:24:43 GMT
I'm not sure the point was that you are supposed or able to "convert" a crew that consists of perfect killing machines. TIM found you people who are the best of the best in the killing business, with varying combat styles and strengths. That's the sole reason they were picked for you. In order to work as a team, yes, you have to get along, but there is zero need to understand their motivations or backgrounds or whatever, or convert them to purely good guys. You just need to beat the Collectors and they don't need to be "good" in order to accomplish that. Was it Kaiden/Ashley who says in ME3 that TIM surrounded Shepard with sympathetic characters to prevent you from seeing the evil in Cerberus? I suppose the writers thought everyone would just go along with it without any reservations. But the game doesn't give us any choice in the matter. You either kowtow to TIM or you don't play the game. It's not about whether you can convert them, exactly, more about Shepard's ability to assert clear moral lines and shape the atmosphere of the story. ME1 allows you to be an unambigiously positive influence on your squadmates and leave them more ethical than you found them while saving the galaxy, and ME3 lets you be unfailingly moral and optimistic at every crisis point in a very desperate war, and if you play it that way then the story you get is incredibly heroic and idealistic despite the dark tone. In contrast, ME2 forces you to either get into the "we're doing what we have to do" mind frame or play the game very frustrated at Shepard constantly looking through their fingers and leaning into the edginess even if you make them object to anything and everything you can. The squad roster is just where that comes through most clearly, since you spend half the game in dialogue with them. Personally I think both utilitarian and principled ethics have their place and are plenty of fun to explore, especially when you push them to the extremes like you can in stories like these, so it doesn't bother me too much. Especially since I haven't played an idealized flawless Shepard in over a decade now. But I can totally see ME2 and its squadmate roster grating on you if you're looking for a more clear-cut heroic space fantasy experience. I didn't mind little Ryder being different from Shepard, but I was surprised how much of an incompetent person he/she was throughout the game. With the time in the circus, I mean the Alliance, and having a father as a former N7, one would believe little Ryder would have more common sense then they present in the game. It appears what the little one learned went in one ear and out the other. If anything Ryder could start up his/her version of the keystone cops in Andromeda. One way I've found to make Ryder feel like they're at least pulling their weight is by speccing heavily into tech and robotics. That way it feels more like SAM is an extension of their existing skillset and the two work off each other to manipulate Remnant Tech, and easier to headcanon later developments as making sense and actually saying something about Ryder's development. Also passes the responsibility for being the squad's backbone in combat and on dangerous missions onto squadmates like Cora, Jaal, Drax or Liam, since nobody would expect the tech genius McGuffin carrier to be the best or most decisive martial character as well. Having much more of an average joe protagonist compared to Shepard is far from a minus for the game, to my mind. We can't all be super soldiers with iron determination, and other people contribute to humanity's success in admirable ways, too. Playing an overgrown teenager who gets to fly the coolest spaceship in the new galaxy and make existential calls for every species due to nepotism and gets a superpowered helper who solves the whole plot completely separate from their own abilities and competence level the achievements of which everybody attributes directly to them, though? Yeah, no. That's not a very empowering fantasy. Ok yes that is one thing that definitely bothered me...there is an ENTIRE PLANET. Eos ALONE should be enough for the entire Initiative to settle. You can have both a military AND science outpost. And why does H3o7-C or whatever its called have a convenient Remnant Tiller and not a destroyed Vault? It literally makes no sense. By that logic, North Carolina was more than big enough for the entire European settlement in America. The idea of colonization is to spread out and claim enough disparate territories for each to grow and expand as much as possible and put as many natural resources as possible to work without ending up having to compete for them down the line. If the Initiative settled on one planet, a few hundred years would pass by and then that planet would be crowded and isolated in a galaxy otherwise populated with Angaran-settled worlds. Which wouldn't exactly be the future Milky Way migrants want for themselves. Which isn't to say that trying to live up to that "colonize the galaxy!" strategy straight away with the Initiative in such a precarious and vulnerable state seems like a very smart plan.
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Post by Spectr61 on Nov 23, 2023 19:26:16 GMT
Andromeda vs ME3?
I hate the ME3 endings as much as anyone, but at least ME3 wasn't aimed at, and written for, pre-teens.
Plus, ME3, (did I mention the shitty endings?), gave us the masterpiece of ME3MP.
Andromeda sucks!
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Post by SwobyJ on Nov 23, 2023 22:57:52 GMT
I can see the appeal of a character who you feel could really be you because they're not a tough experienced hero from the start and can't deliver witty one liners in every conversation. But it seems to me that it was specifically the opportunity to play as the super soldier Shepard that was a large part of the appeal in the trilogy. I was open to a game where you start 'lesser' than even a Service History Shepard, but end 'greater' in some ways than ME3 Shepard (can't be in total, due to even the scale of trilogy events, but at least something). I don't think Ryder really earned their journey. Some pieces were there, but as I've said, its like only half the game was there. I didn't want a trilogy packed into one game, hell no, but in too many ways, I felt stuff barely moved forward. It was *just* enough for a full game, and only *just* - including any character development for Ryder. Right as some stuff got more interesting.... it was Meridian then credits roll. Its something that ME1 itself could have and somewhat did get away with (no one can tell me Shepard has much 'character development' as a cardboard player standin lmao), but I wanted more than a barely ME1+ for it. It was like the game was gesturing in that direction and then ended. Honestly a lot of my disappointment in MEA is how much of a tease for so-far unwritten story it was. Not just setup for a future, but what felt like a deliberate vague hinting instead of giving me that awesome in the game itself. Is SAM a concern being merged with me? Well do something with that. Is there a problem that comes with nepotism? Then don't shy from it, and confront the issue. Was the Nexus falling apart? Then have us EXPERIENCE it and what it really means. Everything was SO safe in MOST regards. Bioware's always had this, but I've never felt it more than MEA and some of DAI. Story delivered in with (mostly) oven mitts on. Can't have Ryder develop and grow (much), status quo for several tonal and development reasons must be maintained. Neutrally toned dialogue only. Friendly ship with few disagreements and no open conflict. All the compelling stuff having happened before Ryder even arrives, and the upcoming enemy being of a bland assimilatory blob (Kett or robots, whatever). I'm not sure if I make total sense, but my point is that MEA itself, its characters and story, was much less compelling than anything surrounding it. Its mysteries, its teases, its setup (Nexus Uprising etc), its hidden figures, and so on. I had to *cope* with this rather blandy blandston of a ship, its crew, its protagonist, its goals and missions, its 'first' contacts, its non-connection to the Milky Way (a sidequest tease). Its the very embodiment of Nothing Happens, even when I have to recognize that technically some things happened! Its just conveyed terribly compared to many games!
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Post by SwobyJ on Nov 23, 2023 23:05:53 GMT
Totally agreed with speccing Ryder in tech. Or rather, where I Vanguarded in MET - not just for the meme class but also I felt it fit any form of off-shoot Shepard RP (I franchise canon him as mostly Soldier though) - I can do almost similarly with Sentinel-ish in MEA. Its not as clear cut, but it does help my immersion to have Ryder be a mix of: lots of tech, capable of biotics, and holds some heavier weaponry and armor sometimes, or at least is able to get a little soldiery. But the tech part is very important, the inverse of RPing a more 'genuine' Shepard. Honestly I hoped it would be Biotics instead as a bigger deal, so now I'm hoping the next game does that instead, but I understand MEA getting into (only) some of the techy side for characterization (SAM).
Anyway it just helps me to play MEA as a SAM-Ryder duo that the script only slightly leans into. No, SAM talking a lot isn't what I mean. That doesn't count a lot in itself. Many more scenes like SAM with super direct control over Ryder is what I mean. Ryder getting a lot of virtualized experiences into SAM and even starting to influence SAM in turn, would have helped - and it'd have definitely played a big part in giving me that 'second half' of the game I felt I missed. Among other things like a quarian ark arriving in 2nd half of game, Kett bringing in reinforcements so we deal with bosses around all the planets, Nexus Uprising politics coming to a major combative head on the Nexus itself, etc etc ETC.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 24, 2023 1:29:13 GMT
Andromeda vs ME3? I hate the ME3 endings as much as anyone, but at least ME3 wasn't aimed at, and written for, pre-teens. Ah, yes. The rated M game is totally geared towards consumers who can’t even get T games.
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Post by hulluliini on Nov 24, 2023 9:06:08 GMT
I'm not sure the point was that you are supposed or able to "convert" a crew that consists of perfect killing machines. TIM found you people who are the best of the best in the killing business, with varying combat styles and strengths. That's the sole reason they were picked for you. In order to work as a team, yes, you have to get along, but there is zero need to understand their motivations or backgrounds or whatever, or convert them to purely good guys. You just need to beat the Collectors and they don't need to be "good" in order to accomplish that. Was it Kaiden/Ashley who says in ME3 that TIM surrounded Shepard with sympathetic characters to prevent you from seeing the evil in Cerberus? I suppose the writers thought everyone would just go along with it without any reservations. But the game doesn't give us any choice in the matter. You either kowtow to TIM or you don't play the game. It's not about whether you can convert them, exactly, more about Shepard's ability to assert clear moral lines and shape the atmosphere of the story. ME1 allows you to be an unambigiously positive influence on your squadmates and leave them more ethical than you found them while saving the galaxy, and ME3 lets you be unfailingly moral and optimistic at every crisis point in a very desperate war, and if you play it that way then the story you get is incredibly heroic and idealistic despite the dark tone. In contrast, ME2 forces you to either get into the "we're doing what we have to do" mind frame or play the game very frustrated at Shepard constantly looking through their fingers and leaning into the edginess even if you make them object to anything and everything you can. The squad roster is just where that comes through most clearly, since you spend half the game in dialogue with them. Personally I think both utilitarian and principled ethics have their place and are plenty of fun to explore, especially when you push them to the extremes like you can in stories like these, so it doesn't bother me too much. Especially since I haven't played an idealized flawless Shepard in over a decade now. But I can totally see ME2 and its squadmate roster grating on you if you're looking for a more clear-cut heroic space fantasy experience. Before you play ME1, you have the illusion that you can influence your squaddies. But by ME2 and ME3 they will do what they feel is right regardless. Like Garrus becoming a bragging vigilante in ME2 even though I always tell him in ME1 that ends don't justify the means, and even though in ME2 I tell him it's not worth killing his old squaddie, he's still an idiot in ME3. No, we never had any influence on our team mates where it really mattered. Sadly. Regarding Ryder - if you choose the logical responses consistently, I don't think Ryder ever tries to claim it's their personal accomplishment rather than SAM's? I suppose in some of the autodialogue there was some bragging but I just tuned those out to maintain my illusion of roleplaying. My Ryder is always humble and doesn't claim to be special, just doing what needs to be done because your dad saved you from certain death the only way he knew how and incidentally that meant you became the only one who could turn on vaults (even though we didn't even know that before you do it the first time). I think the silliness is in claiming that only the one with this special kind of SAM that Alec had can be a pathfinder, even though the other pathfinders have a regular kind of SAM. So wtf can't we just install one in Cora? Nobody knew Alec had a special SAM until they were in combat on Habitat 7. This is the fault of others, not Ryder's, to claim only she can become the next pathfinder. Presumably, with time they will figure out how anyone willing could have similar level of interaction with a SAM so anyone could theoretically learn to activate remnant tech. I don't know, I guess I tend to just tune out anything in the game that is too silly and doesn't make sense and imagine my own version instead, I genuinely don't remember scenes where Ryder would have claimed to be special apart from SAM. I don't mean that she isn't a skilled and smart explorer/soldier/diplomat but just that it's not her who made vaults work, that was SAM, but she did make a lot of choices independently too. SAM accomplished the bare necessity of making the worlds livable but Ryder does a LOT of the grunt work and plenty of specialist work too.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 24, 2023 11:00:16 GMT
I think the silliness is in claiming that only the one with this special kind of SAM that Alec had can be a pathfinder, even though the other pathfinders have a regular kind of SAM. So wtf can't we just install one in Cora? At the time, our SAM is the only one that the Initiative has access to. And the only one geared towards human physiology. Most don’t know that SAM’s connection to Ryder is keeping Ryder alive, so those who do saw them being Pathfinder as a way to explain the connection without them finding out.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Nov 25, 2023 11:32:11 GMT
Before you play ME1, you have the illusion that you can influence your squaddies. But by ME2 and ME3 they will do what they feel is right regardless. Like Garrus becoming a bragging vigilante in ME2 even though I always tell him in ME1 that ends don't justify the means, and even though in ME2 I tell him it's not worth killing his old squaddie, he's still an idiot in ME3. No, we never had any influence on our team mates where it really mattered. Sadly. ...And which of the three game is it that goes and disillusions you like that, exactly? That's kind of my point. Regarding Ryder - if you choose the logical responses consistently, I don't think Ryder ever tries to claim it's their personal accomplishment rather than SAM's? Not talking about Ryder, I'm talking about everyone else heaping praise on them for things that anyone could have done, if they had access to SAM. Feels pointless and pathetic in terms of writing. I, at least, can't stand when people praise me for achievements I don't feel I've earned through my own effort and personal choices, as opposed to natural talent or environmental advantages. In my experience, accepting accolades you haven't struggled or sacrificed for just weakens and makes you more incompetent and narcissistic. You can write/play a satisfying story about a hero who starts out that way, but only if they're headed toward a reckoning. I think the silliness is in claiming that only the one with this special kind of SAM that Alec had can be a pathfinder, even though the other pathfinders have a regular kind of SAM. So wtf can't we just install one in Cora? Nobody knew Alec had a special SAM until they were in combat on Habitat 7. This is the fault of others, not Ryder's, to claim only she can become the next pathfinder. I think the silliness is any kind of SAM being considered necessary to qualify directly for Pathfinder. When I played the demo and woke up after the Habitat 7 mission, the completely and perfectly obvious thing to do was to name Cora Pathfinder and just put Ryder and Sam at her disposal, and I was utterly confused when they went with the weird newbie leader nepotism thing instead. There's no reason why the decision-maker having SAM themselves or a person with SAM at their right hand should be the difference between successful intergalactic colonization or failure.
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Post by Serza on Nov 26, 2023 19:09:10 GMT
I'm late, but is this Zip or Zap?
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Post by hulluliini on Nov 27, 2023 8:50:22 GMT
Before you play ME1, you have the illusion that you can influence your squaddies. But by ME2 and ME3 they will do what they feel is right regardless. Like Garrus becoming a bragging vigilante in ME2 even though I always tell him in ME1 that ends don't justify the means, and even though in ME2 I tell him it's not worth killing his old squaddie, he's still an idiot in ME3. No, we never had any influence on our team mates where it really mattered. Sadly. ...And which of the three game is it that goes and disillusions you like that, exactly? That's kind of my point. Regarding Ryder - if you choose the logical responses consistently, I don't think Ryder ever tries to claim it's their personal accomplishment rather than SAM's? Not talking about Ryder, I'm talking about everyone else heaping praise on them for things that anyone could have done, if they had access to SAM. Feels pointless and pathetic in terms of writing. I, at least, can't stand when people praise me for achievements I don't feel I've earned through my own effort and personal choices, as opposed to natural talent or environmental advantages. In my experience, accepting accolades you haven't struggled or sacrificed for just weakens and makes you more incompetent and narcissistic. You can write/play a satisfying story about a hero who starts out that way, but only if they're headed toward a reckoning. I think the silliness is in claiming that only the one with this special kind of SAM that Alec had can be a pathfinder, even though the other pathfinders have a regular kind of SAM. So wtf can't we just install one in Cora? Nobody knew Alec had a special SAM until they were in combat on Habitat 7. This is the fault of others, not Ryder's, to claim only she can become the next pathfinder. I think the silliness is any kind of SAM being considered necessary to qualify directly for Pathfinder. When I played the demo and woke up after the Habitat 7 mission, the completely and perfectly obvious thing to do was to name Cora Pathfinder and just put Ryder and Sam at her disposal, and I was utterly confused when they went with the weird newbie leader nepotism thing instead. There's no reason why the decision-maker having SAM themselves or a person with SAM at their right hand should be the difference between successful intergalactic colonization or failure. ME2. By the end of ME1, you see how Garrus has changed if you were Paragon. In ME2 he is suddenly renegade and nothing you did in ME1 mattered. As long as there is only one game in existence, you can imagine how any tiny choice could potentially matter in a potential sequel. I am also unclear about why the role of Pathfinder is so closely tied with having SAM. Moreover, it seems several people have SAM implants because when you wake up, Lexi mentions your SAM implant. So clearly Alec had plans to have others with SAMs too in the future. I forget what the Codex and game say about this. How many people have these implants exactly? Why can't they all have a "copy" of SAM? And if Alec passing on Pathfinder authority to Ryder is irreversible (she can't pass it on to Cora next), how was this Pathfinder thing ever going to work? But anyways, it's clear that since having SAM gives you a huge advantage, someone equipped with it is going to be more capable than someone without it, to some extent regardless of their personal abilities. If nothing else, its interpreting and decryption skills. I say to some extent because claiming that ANYONE could have accomplished the same with the help of SAM is a ridiculous statement. No way in hell could _I_ have done everything Ryder did no matter how much SAM was there to help me. Even if I was physically as capable as Ryder is, I would just scream and run for the hills at the first sight of an Eiroch. So maybe you can say many particularly accomplished soldiers could do the same but not just any random person. The game is simply not making this very clear and it's easy to dismiss Ryder's own skill and intellect. At least Sara gives me the impression of being more intelligent than Shepard ever was.
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Post by hulluliini on Nov 27, 2023 9:01:04 GMT
I think the silliness is in claiming that only the one with this special kind of SAM that Alec had can be a pathfinder, even though the other pathfinders have a regular kind of SAM. So wtf can't we just install one in Cora? At the time, our SAM is the only one that the Initiative has access to. And the only one geared towards human physiology. Most don’t know that SAM’s connection to Ryder is keeping Ryder alive, so those who do saw them being Pathfinder as a way to explain the connection without them finding out. So did they have plans to manufacture more SAMs at some point, since so many have implants? Or is the Ryder twins having implants the nepotism people talk about? I try to be attentive with each playthrough but I'm still unclear on details such as these. So if Ryder wouldn't live with SAM, does that mean Alec couldn't have survived without SAM either even if he had a helmet? Because of the special connection? So basically, if Ryder hadn't had a cracked helmet and Alec had transferred Pathfinder authority to Cora instead in some other occasion where he was going to die, Cora would have gone through the same as Ryder - nearly dying, then being forever reliant on SAM? Did Cora fully understand this? Probably not, since she didn't know about Alec's "profiles".
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 27, 2023 18:47:20 GMT
At the time, our SAM is the only one that the Initiative has access to. And the only one geared towards human physiology. Most don’t know that SAM’s connection to Ryder is keeping Ryder alive, so those who do saw them being Pathfinder as a way to explain the connection without them finding out. So did they have plans to manufacture more SAMs at some point, since so many have implants? Or is the Ryder twins having implants the nepotism people talk about? I try to be attentive with each playthrough but I'm still unclear on details such as these. So if Ryder wouldn't live with SAM, does that mean Alec couldn't have survived without SAM either even if he had a helmet? Because of the special connection? So basically, if Ryder hadn't had a cracked helmet and Alec had transferred Pathfinder authority to Cora instead in some other occasion where he was going to die, Cora would have gone through the same as Ryder - nearly dying, then being forever reliant on SAM? Did Cora fully understand this? Probably not, since she didn't know about Alec's "profiles". No, there is nothing that suggests they planned to build more SAMs. The only ones who have implants that connect to them are members of the Pathfinder teams since the SAMs were made to help them with scouting planets and other Pathfinder duties. Ryder couldn’t live without SAM because of what happened on Habitat 7. Parts of Ryder died due to the exposure so SAM picked up the slack. Sort of like the Relic in Cyberpunk 2077. As for the nepotism, most of that is just people criticizing. The only valid thing about Ryder being more special is because Alec built SAM to save his wife. Since her kids share her DNA, he works for them beyond what he would for others. I think in one of the novels it says how Cora would never be able to use SAM like Alec could.
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