Noxluxe
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Nov 28, 2023 0:22:15 GMT
As for the nepotism, most of that is just people criticizing. The only valid thing about Ryder being more special is because Alec built SAM to save his wife. Since her kids share her DNA, he works for them beyond what he would for others. I think in one of the novels it says how Cora would never be able to use SAM like Alec could. None of that is known to any of the characters who name Ryder Pathfinder at the time of decision, though. The nepotism aspect isn't that SAM ends up in them of all people, it's that everyone else steps aside to let them try their hand at leading an intergalactic colonization effort just because their dad threw them his wrench before he croaked.
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Post by hulluliini on Nov 28, 2023 9:09:51 GMT
One more thing to dislike Alec. Wouldn't it make sense to try and make SAM available to as many as possible because it would be too risky to have it available to only a handful of people? And if it didn't seem necessary to have SAM at all in order to settle in Andromeda, why is it used as a criterion for being a Pathfinder? I wish the game had characters criticizing or even thinking out loud about these aspects. SAM is a great tool to have but it's basically coincidental that Alec developed it further than anybody knew and if he hadn't done that, everybody would have been screwed.
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Post by Tonymac on Nov 28, 2023 14:49:09 GMT
Let's not forget that SAM is just basically a ripoff of Cortana from the Halo series.
There is so very little in the story of Andromeda that is based off of new ideas -Just like Anthem was a Destiny/MechWarrior clone.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 28, 2023 16:18:50 GMT
One more thing to dislike Alec. Wouldn't it make sense to try and make SAM available to as many as possible because it would be too risky to have it available to only a handful of people? And if it didn't seem necessary to have SAM at all in order to settle in Andromeda, why is it used as a criterion for being a Pathfinder? I wish the game had characters criticizing or even thinking out loud about these aspects. SAM is a great tool to have but it's basically coincidental that Alec developed it further than anybody knew and if he hadn't done that, everybody would have been screwed. Alec did want to make SAMs for as many as possible though. It’s what got the Ryder family blacklisted since the Alliance and Council didn't trust AI. The Andromeda Initiative were allowed to develop the five SAMs they did because they argued their necessity but had to follow strict guidelines, so Alec kept the abilities of our SAM secret since otherwise they all would have been scrapped.
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Post by Vortex13 on Nov 28, 2023 17:44:49 GMT
And that's another thing that's annoying about Andromeda.
The inevitability of synthetics coming into conflict with their organic creators. The whole reason why the we had to leave the Milky Way in the first place as that dilemma was responsible for burning the whole place down to begin with and Alec along with his creation SAM completely solves the whole conflict behind the billion year long harvests of the Reapers in the first 30 seconds.
Forget that AI have always caused conflict and their creation, intentional or accidental, have screwed over the other races of the galaxy time after time. Rather some human special forces soldier, who tinkers on AI in his spare time, managed to avoid all of that and create the only example of an AI that disproves the Catalyst's entire argument.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 28, 2023 19:16:52 GMT
And that's another thing that's annoying about Andromeda. The inevitability of synthetics coming into conflict with their organic creators. The whole reason why the we had to leave the Milky Way in the first place as that dilemma was responsible for burning the whole place down to begin with and Alec along with his creation SAM completely solves the whole conflict behind the billion year long harvests of the Reapers in the first 30 seconds. Forget that AI have always caused conflict and their creation, intentional or accidental, have screwed over the other races of the galaxy time after time. Rather some human special forces soldier, who tinkers on AI in his spare time, managed to avoid all of that and create the only example of an AI that disproves the Catalyst's entire argument. You mean besides EDI? And really the Geth since they never wanted to fight but the Quarians started it? The Catalyst’s logic has always been flawed. Or at least operating in such a long term scale that it doesn’t register with us (in which case SAM doesn’t disprove him yet).Why should we hold his views as gospel now?
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SwobyJ
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Post by SwobyJ on Nov 28, 2023 22:16:29 GMT
I wouldn't say Alec solved anything. At best, he indirectly proposed a possible solution. The narrative is indicating that its a positive direction, but like the Quarian and Geth peace option, for all we know, its something that 'works' for only days to years. Hardly (practically) eternally lasting.
The problem was also the problem, too. It was Leviathans wanting undisrupted rule, not a benevolent solution for galactic peace.
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Post by hulluliini on Nov 29, 2023 7:36:36 GMT
Yeah I'm not convinced it has to be inevitable that synthetics will always try to destroy or rule over organics. This concept always sounded like Mac and Casey pulled it out of their asses at the last minute. I preferred the more nuanced views we are shown over the trilogy. The AI on the Citadel, EDI on the moon and then in the Normandy, the Geth and their heretics, and in Andromeda we have the benevolent SAM but also the psychopathic ancient AI on Voeld. I do hope SAM doesn't go "evil" but there would be a lot of interesting stories to tell if s/he ever decided that they want their own body or independence from humans or something. Currently SAM doesn't quite seem fully sapient or with full rights as organics.
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Post by trinity0 on Nov 29, 2023 11:51:00 GMT
Sam going Rogue and kill of Ryder is one of my favourite scenarios for a future Mass Effect
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SwobyJ
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Post by SwobyJ on Nov 29, 2023 18:06:17 GMT
Yeah I'm not convinced it has to be inevitable that synthetics will always try to destroy or rule over organics. This concept always sounded like Mac and Casey pulled it out of their asses at the last minute. I preferred the more nuanced views we are shown over the trilogy. The AI on the Citadel, EDI on the moon and then in the Normandy, the Geth and their heretics, and in Andromeda we have the benevolent SAM but also the psychopathic ancient AI on Voeld. I do hope SAM doesn't go "evil" but there would be a lot of interesting stories to tell if s/he ever decided that they want their own body or independence from humans or something. Currently SAM doesn't quite seem fully sapient or with full rights as organics. I interpreted the trilogy progress as: 2009 - Busy with Reaper processes and the ME2 plot, rather than any history and purpose behind the Reapers other than 'Cycle' 2010 - Busy with the Reaper War situation, and broader themes at play, focusing on synth vs org 2011 - Busy with shipping, they had ideas of Reaper backstory that only partially made it into the game, cared more about the war (thus small DLC tease of Crucible) 2012 - Oh shoot, story backlash, lets definitely make that backstory DLC a thing and bump it up in priority, phew, done (and making up much of the backstory specifically for the DLC, not ME3) 2013 - Whatever now, we're going to Andromeda, c ya! MET is a result of figuring out direction year by year, IMO. As opposed to say DAO which at least gave the sense that they had multiple years (2-3 at least) fleshing out a world lore and where it may generally take things over several games. (Of course its had major adjustments since.) The Reapers were cool, they wanted to follow up on them, but the nature of the True Conflict probably wasn't decided until like.. 2011, 2010 earliest. ME2 just more deliberately seeded ideas, only some of which have since been followed up on, and some haven't (Dark Energy). I don't think it was an asspull at last minute, but I do easy feel they lacked studio consistency about what they were really going for. The trilogy as a whole, seemed to include org vs syn as a major thread, but only a major thread, not THE thread (it'd have been very possible for the Reaper story to wrap it in as only one part of their story, not the Entire Purpose). And the trilogy as a whole, seemed to greatly value destruction of the Reapers in particular, so even Control was jarring and Synthesis felt like mostly nonsense to even bring up. There wasn't a more gradual ramping up of ME3 ending themes that was necessary if they wanted us to buy into it. It really should be no surprise that people focus on ideas like the ending sucking, the Catalyst being purely a liar, or the experience not even being real. Unlike Krogan and Geth issues, Reapers didn't get much except side details (like through EDI) or stuff telling us KILL ALL OF THEM by way of trusted NPCs outright telling us, or more and more examples of Reapers being too harmful and dangerous to continue to exist. It'd have been different with things like a more fleshed out ME2 where we actually learn a deeper perspective on what 'Ascension' meant, or at least could mean. We still have the 'each a Nation' part of the Reapers, so for all we know, each Reaper is a 'universe' inside, but its never shown, so how can we enjoy our decision making at the end of a trilogy? Its either kill the things or buy into an annoying robo kid going blah blah blah. Hardly very consistent with the rest of the trilogy. It was Bioware (heads) buying too much into each of their games being standalone enough that players will go along with whatever if its expressed sincerely sounding enough, but it didn't work in ME3 because too many players remembered too much of ME1-2 and frankly, even a majority enough of ME3. If you're casual and not looking for the most exquisite storytelling, Extended Cut and Leviathan DO help. A new player who gets the whole package IS able to buy into the Reaper explanation much easier than others. There ARE syn vs org themes majorly in the trilogy... again only majorly, not centrally. But its still pretty nonsense that this is the final choice and the culmination of Shepard's journey. To keep with an even Paragon Shepard, one greatly empowered (too much imo but it is what it is) to this point, the options should have been how are you destroying the Reapers and how effectively or sparingly you'd go about it, or be allowed to based on war effectiveness. It wouldn't have included Control at all and Synthesis would be out of the question. ME3 could indeed rise up the prospects of that happening in a generally hand waved sense, but it wouldn't fit Shepard's story. It'd have been more of a 'we greatly damaged the Reapers, ended the War, but they're still present in the galaxy' and some other future story could include them PLUS other synthetics and a more reasonable sounding prospect to do things like Control or Synthesis in the long run. ME3 ending was very Crap Its the Final Approved Season that tries too hard to pull in the ideas of several scrapped future seasons into one last scene. "No time to explain" indeed.
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Post by Vortex13 on Nov 29, 2023 22:29:16 GMT
And that's another thing that's annoying about Andromeda. The inevitability of synthetics coming into conflict with their organic creators. The whole reason why the we had to leave the Milky Way in the first place as that dilemma was responsible for burning the whole place down to begin with and Alec along with his creation SAM completely solves the whole conflict behind the billion year long harvests of the Reapers in the first 30 seconds. Forget that AI have always caused conflict and their creation, intentional or accidental, have screwed over the other races of the galaxy time after time. Rather some human special forces soldier, who tinkers on AI in his spare time, managed to avoid all of that and create the only example of an AI that disproves the Catalyst's entire argument. You mean besides EDI? And really the Geth since they never wanted to fight but the Quarians started it? The Catalyst’s logic has always been flawed. Or at least operating in such a long term scale that it doesn’t register with us (in which case SAM doesn’t disprove him yet).Why should we hold his views as gospel now? Except EDI and the Geth both used violence against their creator immeditly, or near enough, after gaining sentience. SAM never did. In fact it has been so perfectly amicable to it's organic counterparts that I was quietly suspecting that SAM's helpfulness was all a ruse and was going to be Andromeda's big twist the first time I played. But no. SAM is perfect, and rightly the hero of the narrative considering how much it does and how little Ryder would matter without it. And I don't trust the Catalyst as far as I can throw it, but the whole "Synthetics will ultimately rebel against Organics" shtick that Casey and Mac forced down our throats at the last minute WAS the reason why the Milky Way was burned to the ground and we had to go to Andromeda in the first place. The fact that SAM not only solves that whole dilemma within seconds of being introduced but also, rather unsubtly, points to Synthesis as being the ideal solution just rubs salt in the wound.
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Post by hulluliini on Nov 30, 2023 9:27:48 GMT
but I do easy feel they lacked studio consistency about what they were really going for. This would be my guess - non-lead writers writing side stories that clash with what the lead writers had in mind. Chris L'Etoile, for instance, had his own ideas about Geth and AI that the leads didn't agree with. Also, I think they may not have expected how much players would grow to like the Geth so they had to introduce the peace option in 3 even though it would be contradicted by what Catalyst says at the end. I could give them the benefit of the doubt and say they had nuanced ideas about AIs but didn't manage to create a nuanced ending but the truth is probably that the ideas of the various writers weren't harmonised enough. And overall it's natural to have the story evolve over years even if you have a very specific vision from the start. Btw SAM isn't really in synthesis with Ryder. They don't have "shared DNA" or whatever. SAM is able to control Ryder's biology, kill them at whim and could probably direct their thoughts but chooses not to, I suppose thanks to Alec writing good ethics codes into it. It kind of reminds me of Control, except the other way around, with an AI controlling an organic. There is so much they could do with SAM to create really problematic and nuanced stories but I doubt BW is going to do that. They'll keep it really simple and straightforward with AIs helping organics and nobody cares about what the AIs might want for themselves apart from being servants to organics.
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Post by Vortex13 on Nov 30, 2023 12:37:58 GMT
Chris L'Etoile should have been left in charge of the Geth. Really he should have been the head writer since its obvious based on his contributions to the narrative and world building during Mass Effect 1&2 that he the only writer there interested in science fiction as opposed to 'Rule of Cool' and space magic.
The dip in quality is pretty noticeable once he left and it's really only the attachment that the players had formed with the series up until that point that most didn't notice the cracks until the last moments. In looking back though you can see the decline writing from the Geth becoming just little Pinocchio bots, loosing all of their former nuance in favor of becoming real boys like everyone else, to Cerberus suddenly becoming the Sith Empire and amassing a naval presence that rivals galactic superpowers in the span of six months, etc.
It's even more painfully obvious that BioWare didn't have any quality science fiction writers on staff when they made Andromeda as well.
And I always thought that SAM would be a much more compelling plot device if it was more like STEM from the film Upgrade.
Imagine if that's how Ryder would react when they give SAM control in fights.
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Post by SwobyJ on Nov 30, 2023 17:53:33 GMT
I don't mind concepts of 'synthesis' happening in Mass Effect. Its just more that the series (ME3 and to extent MEA) hammered it in crudely as like the only way to go for the future. The truly positive path, even after all content previously was presenting anything adjacent to the idea as abhorrent.
It smacks of having a very limited sense of futurism. But I got triggered by the SpaceX reference in MEA even in 2017 so that's where I'm coming from - a feeling of BW following subcultural trends rather than developing their own intelligent statements.
No breaking ground, just regurgitation of recent chatter. ME3 it was Singularity, for sure.
The Geth was a great example. I don't mind a peace option, I don't mind something in the story of MET going towards at least some part of the Geth desiring this more humanized way of things. But the narrative had to hammer right in that the only way forward for Geth was becoming Like Humans and only way forward for Quarians was integrating Geth into their suits and working extensively alongside them.
That's one kind of ideal, but the world doesn't always, and literally can't always work that way. Other solutions should be respected in the context of Reaper War. If Shepard's such a damn Miracle Worker, then Shepard can also make this stuff happen too (for now). But in ME3 it felt like there was Golden Path that if you stray from it, get ready to be not-so-subtly chastised. On Rannoch, it was outright 'You lose a species! Good day, sir!'. The dramatics were lose a species (at least depending on POV), or get the lovely peace ending where everything is definitely all working out, besides maybe a tiny minor NPC reference now and again at the potential dangers. The bias was clear in a lot of cases.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 2, 2023 17:29:18 GMT
At the time, our SAM is the only one that the Initiative has access to. And the only one geared towards human physiology. Most don’t know that SAM’s connection to Ryder is keeping Ryder alive, so those who do saw them being Pathfinder as a way to explain the connection without them finding out. So did they have plans to manufacture more SAMs at some point, since so many have implants? Or is the Ryder twins having implants the nepotism people talk about? I try to be attentive with each playthrough but I'm still unclear on details such as these. So if Ryder wouldn't live with SAM, does that mean Alec couldn't have survived without SAM either even if he had a helmet? Because of the special connection? So basically, if Ryder hadn't had a cracked helmet and Alec had transferred Pathfinder authority to Cora instead in some other occasion where he was going to die, Cora would have gone through the same as Ryder - nearly dying, then being forever reliant on SAM? Did Cora fully understand this? Probably not, since she didn't know about Alec's "profiles". Ah yes, the helmet, the cause of all the crap that followed. A helmet bought at K-Mart would have been better than the crap little Ryder wore. Obviously the helmet wasn't tested for impact' resistance. What could have happened is Alec survives but isn't able to continue as pathfinder because of his injury. Possible broken hip. On the Nexus, SAM is transferred to Harper, but there are complications. It's decided to transfer to little Ryder. One more thing to dislike Alec. Wouldn't it make sense to try and make SAM available to as many as possible because it would be too risky to have it available to only a handful of people? And if it didn't seem necessary to have SAM at all in order to settle in Andromeda, why is it used as a criterion for being a Pathfinder? I wish the game had characters criticizing or even thinking out loud about these aspects. SAM is a great tool to have but it's basically coincidental that Alec developed it further than anybody knew and if he hadn't done that, everybody would have been screwed. Alec did want to make SAMs for as many as possible though. It’s what got the Ryder family blacklisted since the Alliance and Council didn't trust AI. The Andromeda Initiative were allowed to develop the five SAMs they did because they argued their necessity but had to follow strict guidelines, so Alec kept the abilities of our SAM secret since otherwise they all would have been scrapped. I still smile with the thought there was no one else in the galaxy that could come up with a Sam. Sam would never have happened if it wasn't for this so-called benefactor with it's/his/her's/them endless amount of resources. I will start calling Alec deadbeat dad. Why? He has trust issues. He didn't trust Harper. He just led her along. And there's his children. He didn't trust them enough to let them know his plans about their mother. I wonder how much of an expense he went to get his kids to believe she was dead. Was there a fake funeral? Is there an empty grave with a headstone with his wife's name? I would have let Alec live so that his kids could get in his face and 4 letter him to death. If little Ryder is in the next ME game, it would be interesting if they go to Earth to look at the fake grave for their mother.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
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At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Dec 7, 2023 9:11:47 GMT
Hanako Ikezawa I think you can be happy now... Well maybe depending on IF WHAT follows turns out to be true but at this point its just an avid fans speculation. Still... I could get behind this. At least unlike where they left it with MEA. This actually could have some clout. And then this... Finally someone who puts the Technobabble jargon on a level I think most can understand. The Andromeda Initiative will just have to get the implementation correct. One wrong calculation and exit right as the Reapers invade and the Reapers go to Andromeda instead of the Milky Way... Though I don't think the Reapers would care much about temporal dynamics nor quantum engineering but again they are bit young to grasp the fundamentals of those nor probably even care. Though them going to Andromeda instead of the devastation that they wrought you probably would think would sound good to me for getting them out of the MWG. I however think its worse since they can create more with a bigger galaxy and comeback with numbers that dwarf what they had before. If you have seen those videos already then good for you. Your more forgiving than I in my self imposed Bioware Blackout. Though considering how much of the original team we lost -ME1 and ME2 I am still skeptical to believe this. I will add this and Bioware please take note: Credit this person if you use their ideas. Or at least hire them on as technical advisor they deserve the backpay. Which I doubt BW would ever do. Knowing Bioware though... They will stab us all in the back by eventually saying ME5 will be a platformer!!! Then throw us another curve and send us to Triangulum!!!!!! Though these vids do restore my hope a little bit though that everything MAY connect after all... -so you can be content about maybe being right for now according this speculation of speculation. I reserve the right to say otherwise if its proved otherwise.
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Post by smilesja on Dec 8, 2023 7:41:19 GMT
The ME2 companion roster is my least favorite in the entire franchise. I disliked or couldn’t care less about most of them. Different strokes, that was me exactly re MEA. Almost instantly forgettable characters that will hopefully only exist as codex entries in the next game. Considering that Bioware hates Andromeda fans, it might happen.
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Post by hulluliini on Dec 8, 2023 8:10:51 GMT
Different strokes, that was me exactly re MEA. Almost instantly forgettable characters that will hopefully only exist as codex entries in the next game. Considering that Bioware hates Andromeda fans, it might happen. Hates them based on what exactly?
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Post by smilesja on Dec 8, 2023 19:37:37 GMT
Considering that Bioware hates Andromeda fans, it might happen. Hates them based on what exactly? The fact that we have a new protagonist most likely from the Milky Way so yeah people who don’t like Andromeda will be pleased so until BioWare says otherwise, I expect them to either kill Ryder and their crew or have them pass away that way MET can be appeased.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 8, 2023 20:33:31 GMT
Hates them based on what exactly? The fact that we have a new protagonist most likely from the Milky Way so yeah people who don’t like Andromeda will be pleased so until BioWare says otherwise, I expect them to either kill Ryder and their crew or have them pass away that way MET can be appeased. Kill Ryder, squad and crew? Hmmm. Two ways that could happen..... 1)At the beginning of the game, the ship comes under fire from an unknown source, the peepee character trying to prove she can be a team player, launches the new escape pod without anyone in it. Just as the other character's are about to rip her head off, the ship is destroyed killing everyone. 2) Bioware pulls an Emily Wong, death via twitter. Let's add a third possiblity.....MEA was a nightmare Shepard had. After taking a breath, she/he will say what the **** did I just dream about?
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Post by smilesja on Dec 8, 2023 20:54:09 GMT
Like I said, I feel like Bioware is going to try to appease MET fans and only give ME:A fans crumbs.
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Post by hulluliini on Dec 9, 2023 9:08:10 GMT
Hates them based on what exactly? The fact that we have a new protagonist most likely from the Milky Way so yeah people who don’t like Andromeda will be pleased so until BioWare says otherwise, I expect them to either kill Ryder and their crew or have them pass away that way MET can be appeased. I dont care about Ryder and their crew that much and I'm an Andromeda fan. I'm not attached to any particular characters. So I wouldn't feel hated if Ryder and co die by Twitter, especially if there is a time jump - enough to tell me that they lived happily ever after until dying of natural causes (or heroically in battle or maybe from an illness).
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wright1978
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Prime Posts: 8,116
Prime Likes: 2073
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wright1978
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by wright1978 on Dec 9, 2023 19:22:50 GMT
The ME2 companion roster is my least favorite in the entire franchise. I disliked or couldn’t care less about most of them. Different strokes, that was me exactly re MEA. Almost instantly forgettable characters that will hopefully only exist as codex entries in the next game. Yeah i really struggled to have people i wanted to go out in the field with in Andromeda, given how poor i found the roster, whereas ME2 was my high point. I was hoping Andromeda would be relegated to codex/news stories in milky way story but given Angara seem to be present that's probably not going to be the case. I still expect the time period to mean very few re-occurring characters,
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smilesja
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Post by smilesja on Dec 10, 2023 3:56:05 GMT
Edit.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
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At sunrise there is the sunset.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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thelastvanguardian
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
No.
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Dec 11, 2023 4:25:13 GMT
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