Lucanis Dellamorte - Official Companion Thread [Spoilers]

I called it.    Grandma never left room for any pesky romance.   However, that doesn't necessarily mean he is a virgin (or do they actually state as much?).   

Zevran was trained in the art of seduction so he could widen the range of his methods for achieving his contract.    They were specifically conditioned not to make an emotional connection.   Then he made the mistake of falling in love with a fellow Crow who had already been marked for death by the leadership.   They lied to him saying that she had betrayed them and so he followed orders and killed her.   Only then did he discover the truth and it broke him.   He bid for the contract on the Warden because he wanted to die.   If he survives, then either through friendship or romance, he is given a renewed will to live, after which he exacts revenge on the Crows.    If he does fall in love with the Warden, it endures even beyond the latter's sacrifice if they make it.

Given how rigorous and harsh Caterina's training of the young Lucanis was, it is hardly surprising that he finds it difficult to show his emotions.  She may well have discouraged him if she got wind he was showing the slightest interest in anyone outside of the needs of the job.  (She likely also warned them off or if they were low down in rank just arranged for their removal).   Also, like  much of the nobility of Thedas, the main aim of any romantic attachments is not love but political advancement.   So, between the demands of being an assassin and a member of the Crow "aristocracy", the odds of having a normal loving relationship were really stacked against him.

These comments are of course based on our original understanding of the Crows, not the watered down version, sanitised version they gave in DAV.

Personally, I'm baffled by the level of "retcon!" being thrown around Crows, when those who do that seem to have not paid attention to either story and lore.

First off, Lucanis is traumatized by his experience in Ossuary, but it's obvious that his hang-ups are not just a result of that - he's the guy who has no social life to speak of, focuses predominantly on work and is able to shut emotionally so tightly not even a demon he's bonded to can reach his mind in a moment Lucanis turtles up to to push away feelings of confusion and helplessness.

That's not a result of Zara's tortures - that's a result of harsh upbringing implemented by Caterina; and we can't even be all like "Caterina bad!", because that harsh training appears to have allowed him to survive in a cutthroat world of the Crows - a faction so chaotic and so absorbed by rivalries between one another that it reduced Dellamorte house to 3 members.

And even with just 3 members, House Dellamorte still managed to have 1 traitor amongst them, who sold a cousin who thought of him as a brother to a magister that tortured and experimented on him for a year - all out of jealousy and the sort of chaotic, self-interested spirit present among Crows.

Like, if this is how they treat their leadership, if there's any wonder there are Houses that are absolutely terrible for their recruits?
It's actually not just "why not?" - some of the more amicable, reasonable (and patriotic) Crow Houses and its members (specifically, de Riva and Cantori, Dellamorte is initially in it because Caterina wants her grandson back) ally with us specifically in order to save a city (and nation) they consider theirs. And since Treviso has been conquered by forces that allied with a threat to the entire continent, if they want to save Treviso/Antiva, they HAVE to ally with those they consider the best option to deal with the crisis that also threatens them.

Heck, in DAO it is established that the Crows originally ally with Loghain, because they considered him the best option against darkspawn (only for actions of HoF to erode that support). Their miscalculation in that regard doesn't change the fact that - seeing a threat that would eventually impact them - they chose to ally with forces outside of Antiva.

Besides, whole kingdoms are known to temporarily wave away differences and ally to combat a Blight, and in DAV we have a goddamn Blight to end all Blights. Literally. Why are people so opposed to the idea that we can find allies and factions willing to cooperate to stop the largest threat Thedas saw in the last millennia?

And, I mean, obviously, House de Riva and Cantori are portrayed in a much better light than e.g. House Arainai (that does NOT officially ally with us), but the fact that there are different Crow Houses with different politics not something that just comes at us out of nowhere in DAVe - it's just that they're better fleshed out in Tevinter Nights/DAVe, and fleshing out in later titles or chapters is such a normal thing, and happened in so many places in DA, that it's baffling anyone would consider this a retcon; it's just normal storytelling!

All in all, I'm afraid that the Crows have fallen victims of "first impressions" in DAO, and are viewed through the lens of Zevran's experience, same way as HoF and Alistair's experience as Grey Wardens makes them lose the "grey" part in eyes of some fans.

All of the context you brought up to explain why the Crows would act like they are currently is not explained to a new player, will never be explained to them, and in that way alone is a retcon until such time as there is a sequel that shows it was literally the temporary alliance of goodness you make it out to be.

I was going in very blind and I always flirt with like 3 or more of the options to get a feel for the chemistry of the potential connection. Emmrich wasn't ruled out until I learned what his great dream was, Davrin was then let go for Assan being the only thing interesting about him. Also melbella really sold me on Lucanis, so then I ended up with Lucanis.  So maybe 'playing the field' made all the flirt options feel weightless. I didn't have an interest in them beyond their male appearance until Act II.

I've tried a couple other music videos about Lucanis but "female rook" and good song and good editing is a tough trifecta so far it seems.

The music video I posted did a lot for me, making me feel like Lucanis is very Fenris/Zevran/Cullen. I suppose it's a theory to prove, but I believe it nonethless, that my doing all the quests for 80 hours ruined the pacing for me. Also maybe flirting with everyone at once also weakened it. I also had played a stoic angry Rook and maybe missed out on some loving sweetness. I also missed a crossroads dialogue. So if I got the game down to like 20 hours and played slightly differently, know I already like Lucanis, and didn't miss things, I could maybe have 90% of the romance I wanted.

I just ultimately don't like the game and am going to ignore so much of it and my initial upset about that dislike I think carried over to the romance. I've never needed pixels to bump uglies but the lack of physical affection sucks. But what IS there, the very little there is, is good.

Therein lies the problem. It should be possible to understand the Crows simply from the games without any associated media.

DAO: We not only have Zevran's personal testimony but also can even take contracts from that Crow in Denerim. Apparently they are very pragmatic when it comes to the actions of Crows in other Houses messing up on the job because he was prepared to look the other way if we agree to work with him. The first one is in our interests because it involves someone working for Howe who is killing Grey Warden loyalists. The second involves taking out a Qunari mercenary band, so I assume are really Tal-Vashoth. The next actually involves killing a Ferelden ambassador in Orzammar (the Crows are really poking their noses in where they don't belong there, aren't they?) The final one involves taking out a group of Howe supporters who had previously kidnapped the son of a noble and holding him for ransom. Again, this benefits us directly, so something we'd likely have done anyway if we'd known. So, I suppose it could be argued the Crows were trying to make good for their previous mistake in backing the wrong side in Loghain.

DAA: We end up fighting a group of Crows employed by nobles from Ferelden in opposition to the Grey Wardens controlling Vigil's Keep.

I would note here that the presence of Ignacio and the later involvement of the Crows in attacking the Warden in DAA would seem to expose Lucanis assertion that they never took contracts again in Ferelden after Zevran to be a lie. However, since he says "after the events of the 5th Blight", I suppose you could argue that covered the events of both DAO and DAA, since all was technically part of the 5th Blight.

DA2: We encounter Crows hunting down Zevran as he anticipated they would at the end of DAO, which is why he left the side of the Warden (whether lover or friend), presumably so they wouldn't be brought into danger or so he could keep one step ahead of them. It is noticeable from this quest and the earlier ones with Ignacio that the Crows do not have a problem with using other people to achieve their aims, so working with the Veilguard would be consistent with this.

DAI: The Crows only ever feature in War Table missions, principally those involving opposing Venatori activity in the Freemarches. Never entirely clear whether this was because they objected to the Venatori or simply that the Inquisition was paying well but I seem to recall that occasionally they were working independently from us (using Zevran) against the same target, so may be they did see opposing the Venatori as in their own interests or may be someone else was paying them to do so.

The main problem I have with DAV is that for new players they don't really give the sort of information about their training methods, etc, that we got in DAO. Okay, that was just from Zevran's perspective but it was implied this was usual training for their recruits, who Zevran says are taken in as children and there is a fair bit of wastage along the way, so the ones who make it through the training are tough and know how to survive.

Does Lucanis ever really speak about what life was like growing up like Zevran did? I know he says something about it not being easy being Caterina's grandson with the expectations and demands made on him. However, does he ever say more such as is found in Tevinter Nights? Does he ever mention that he really didn't want to be First Talon?

Incidentally, did they ever explain how the Crows came to have a contract on the Dread Wolf?   In Tevinter Nights they weren't even invited to Charter's meeting of important factions concerned with hunting down Solas.   We were given a reason for the absence of the Tevinter Sicarri and the Ben'Hassrath but not for the Crows and I thought it odd they did not have a representative there.   So when did  they start taking an interest in Solas, which was the reason given for a Crow Rook working with Varric?

Does it actually say that? The House comprises more than just the people at the top or they would never maintain their position. That's the whole point. There is a whole structure below the Talons of Grand Master Assassins, Master Assassins, Assassins and trainees that comprise the house. In some ways that does ensure that if one House betrays the Crows, it is only that House which suffers but it may well be that a senior member of the House will step in and remove the problem before it becomes a Crow wide issue. That is why those at the top can never show weakness and are utterly ruthless.

One thing that did puzzle me, based off Tevinter Nights and Eight Little Talons. In that, Viago predicted that the whole of House Kortez would be eliminated in reprisal for Emil's treachery by Caterina. If she had done that then there would be no 4th House to be headed up by a 4th Talon. At the very least you would think they would be demoted in rank, even if Caterina did not have the strength to remove them altogether. However, since the 2nd and 3rd Talons had also been assassinated, I would have thought their houses would also want revenge, even if that only related to Emil's immediate family, after which the other operatives would have been absorbed into the rest of the Houses. Yet I seem to recall that Viago was still said to be 5th Talon when I would have expected him to rise up to 4th at the very least.

Also, given the cutthroat nature of the Crows, why would Caterina spare Illario's life? What is a greater betrayal than that of your own family? Lucanis might say that he was humiliated in front of all the Crows and likely others would have their knives out for him as a result but to spare his life would be perceived as a sign of weakness on the part of the other Houses and an insult to them considering they had suffered from his treachery as well. The decision over what to do with Illario could have been a deciding factor when it came to Lucanis' destiny as First Talon. He could either have embraced it and killed his cousin himself or declined to do so and surrendered any claim on the leadership of the Crows.

The conclusion where he just tamely accepts his role as First Talon and then effectively leaves Caterina to run things in his absence, just seemed disappointing to me given the nature of the organisation and his previous assertion that he didn't want it in Tevinter Nights. If, as you say, she was all that was left of House Dellamorte, why would she be able to hang onto control? She had already shown herself incapable of retaining the loyalty of one of her grandsons. Where is the leadership required for a Crow House let alone the entire organisation? As others have pointed out elsewhere, it also seemed a bit odd that the other Crows weren't more worried about having an abomination as a leader, although I suppose the fact he was a literal demon might account for why no one really wanted to raise the subject!

Datamined description, directly from the game files:

patch it in! patch it in!

That's fair, demons being complicated entities who may not be wholly evil is definitely an interesting take. If their dialogue had gone into it a bit more, it would have felt a lot more satisfying than what we have now. Lucanis' story arc and romance - as with the rest of the game, Solas scenes aside - often suffers from fairly simple dialogue (and the Hollywood music treatment of DAV does nothing to elevate it).