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Post by midnight tea on Jun 24, 2024 19:30:22 GMT
I'm not saying that this is true but imo it's a valid way of looking at his character. He's very ambivalent which makes him a great character. Having people argue so much is testament to a well written complex character. I just reject the idea that I can't call out his bullshit just because he is traumatized by everything that went down. It's still very wrong. It is good if you can view him in different ways because that makes for varied role playing. I've got my female Lavellan who still loves him and is convinced she can save him from himself and my male Lavellan who feels utterly betrayed by him and essentially had the veil (no pun intended) lifted from his eyes concerning what Solas really is. So as a player I can swap between the two points of view. Then it turns out we can do it all over again with Rook, which is great because I can offset each Rook against a different Inquisitor. However, there is one speech of Solas to Dorian that I really feel is either rank hypocrasy and exhibits a total lack of self awareness: • Dorian: Solas, for what it's worth, I'm sorry.The elven city of Arlathan sounds like a magical place, and for my ancestors to have destroyed it... • Solas: Dorian... hush. Empires rise and fall. Arlathan was no more "innocent" than your own Tevinter in its time. Your nostalgia for the ancient elves, however romanticized, is pointless. If you wish to make amends for past transgressions, free the slaves of all races who live in Tevinter today. • Dorian: I... don't know that I can do that. • Solas: Then how sorry are you? I just wanted to scream at him in Trespasser. "Do you recall what you said to Dorian? How could you when you knew what you were planning to do? If you really want to make amends for past transgressions then save all the races of the world today, not just your people." And from the perspective of Solas, it's likely he believes that he does? By restoring conscious connection to the Fade to the people from whom the Veil has taken it. Which is likely... all of them*? It could certainly be in line with Sandal's prophecy, where he says that 'everyone will be how they were'.It would also be in like with Solas saying "the return of my people means the end of yours". Because Thedosians as they were will end - restoring a conscious connection with the Fade to most people, where most people are not used or prepared for it? Oh, that would certainly shatter the present world order and how things are, from global to personal level. *I am of two minds of what will happen with the dwarves, given that they are somehow connected with the Titans.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 24, 2024 19:35:27 GMT
It is good if you can view him in different ways because that makes for varied role playing. I've got my female Lavellan who still loves him and is convinced she can save him from himself and my male Lavellan who feels utterly betrayed by him and essentially had the veil (no pun intended) lifted from his eyes concerning what Solas really is. So as a player I can swap between the two points of view. Then it turns out we can do it all over again with Rook, which is great because I can offset each Rook against a different Inquisitor. However, there is one speech of Solas to Dorian that I really feel is either rank hypocrasy and exhibits a total lack of self awareness: • Dorian: Solas, for what it's worth, I'm sorry.The elven city of Arlathan sounds like a magical place, and for my ancestors to have destroyed it... • Solas: Dorian... hush. Empires rise and fall. Arlathan was no more "innocent" than your own Tevinter in its time. Your nostalgia for the ancient elves, however romanticized, is pointless. If you wish to make amends for past transgressions, free the slaves of all races who live in Tevinter today. • Dorian: I... don't know that I can do that. • Solas: Then how sorry are you? I just wanted to scream at him in Trespasser. "Do you recall what you said to Dorian? How could you when you knew what you were planning to do? If you really want to make amends for past transgressions then save all the races of the world today, not just your people." And from the perspective of Solas, it's likely he believes that he does? By restoring conscious connection to the Fade to the people from whom the Veil has taken it. Which is likely... all of them*? It could certainly be in line with Sandal's prophecy, where he says that 'everyone will be how they were'.It would also be in like with Solas saying "the return of my people means the end of yours". Because Thedosians as they were will end - restoring a conscious connection with the Fade to most people, where most people are not used or prepared for it? Oh, that would certainly shatter the present world order and how things are, from global to personal level. *I am of two minds of what will happen with the dwarves, given that they are somehow connected with the Titans. Hey, you finally acknowledge Solas is committing a genocide!
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Post by celestielf on Jun 24, 2024 19:37:03 GMT
Another thing Solas says if Inky drinks from the Well is that everything they do now is for Mythal, whether they realize it or not. I don't want Solas' agency in what he has done to be negated by any means, but on the other hand if he is/was bound to Mythal he could be carrying out her wishes without realizing it. I think Mythal, like Solas, is a morally grey character but I certainly don't expect her to be benevolent. She has been playing a long game and she hasn't always been nice about it.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 24, 2024 19:42:39 GMT
It is good if you can view him in different ways because that makes for varied role playing. I've got my female Lavellan who still loves him and is convinced she can save him from himself and my male Lavellan who feels utterly betrayed by him and essentially had the veil (no pun intended) lifted from his eyes concerning what Solas really is. So as a player I can swap between the two points of view. Then it turns out we can do it all over again with Rook, which is great because I can offset each Rook against a different Inquisitor. However, there is one speech of Solas to Dorian that I really feel is either rank hypocrasy and exhibits a total lack of self awareness: • Dorian: Solas, for what it's worth, I'm sorry.The elven city of Arlathan sounds like a magical place, and for my ancestors to have destroyed it... • Solas: Dorian... hush. Empires rise and fall. Arlathan was no more "innocent" than your own Tevinter in its time. Your nostalgia for the ancient elves, however romanticized, is pointless. If you wish to make amends for past transgressions, free the slaves of all races who live in Tevinter today. • Dorian: I... don't know that I can do that. • Solas: Then how sorry are you? I just wanted to scream at him in Trespasser. "Do you recall what you said to Dorian? How could you when you knew what you were planning to do? If you really want to make amends for past transgressions then save all the races of the world today, not just your people." And from the perspective of Solas, it's likely he believes that he does? By restoring conscious connection to the Fade to the people from whom the Veil has taken it. Which is likely... all of them*? It could certainly be in line with Sandal's prophecy, where he says that 'everyone will be how they were'.It would also be in like with Solas saying "the return of my people means the end of yours". Because Thedosians as they were will end - restoring a conscious connection with the Fade to most people, where most people are not used or prepared for it? Oh, that would certainly shatter the present world order and how things are, from global to personal level. *I am of two minds of what will happen with the dwarves, given that they are somehow connected with the Titans. keep in mind that sandals prophecy likely refers to the Dwarves as much as anyone. The Titan in Descent woke up and started reaching out for the Dwarves specifically because of the Breech. So it's very likely that if the Veil completely came down then ALL the Titans would wake up in an effort to reestablish contact.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 24, 2024 19:46:25 GMT
It would also be in like with Solas saying "the return of my people means the end of yours". Because Thedosians as they were will end - restoring a conscious connection with the Fade to most people, where most people are not used or prepared for it? Oh, that would certainly shatter the present world order and how things are, from global to personal level. I'm sorry but that is not what he meant. He is not just changing the political landscape, they are going to be destroyed. He does not deny this when the Inquisitor challenges him on it. He does not deny this when Charter challenges him on it and she definitely understood that it would mean the death of her human lover. He does not deny it when Varric is standing there challenging him on it. He just responds that death is inevitable. Also, if what he is proposing wasn't so terrible, why does he need redeeming?
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Post by Kappa Neko on Jun 24, 2024 19:50:52 GMT
So far I trust Solas about as much as the catalyst about the synthesis ending. And we're talking about the exact same kind of horrific one decides for everyone scenario. With unknown but irreversible consequences. Keep your reaper tech, Solas! *g*
"I think we'd rather keep our own form." "No, you can't."
Except Solas doesn't even give you 3 choices, it's synthesis or bust.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 24, 2024 20:01:00 GMT
So far I trust Solas about as much as the catalyst about the synthesis ending. And we're talking about the exact same kind of horrific one decides for everyone scenario. With unknown but irreversible consequences. Keep your reaper tech, Solas! *g* "I think we'd rather keep our own form." "No, you can't." Except Solas doesn't even give you 3 choices, it's synthesis or bust. At least the Catalyst is completely honest with us. So Solas is worse than the Catalyst.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Jun 24, 2024 20:10:01 GMT
So far I trust Solas about as much as the catalyst about the synthesis ending. And we're talking about the exact same kind of horrific one decides for everyone scenario. With unknown but irreversible consequences. Keep your reaper tech, Solas! *g* "I think we'd rather keep our own form." "No, you can't." Except Solas doesn't even give you 3 choices, it's synthesis or bust. At least the Catalyst is completely honest with us. So Solas is worse than the Catalyst. Weeeell, we don't know that. Indoctrination Theory will forever be my headcanon. Pick synthesis and the reapers win is what happens in my head.
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Post by Reznore on Jun 24, 2024 20:21:36 GMT
I'm trying to wrap my head around the tearing of the veil. Before the veil, there were magical elves, dwarves probably sundered from Titans but still breathing, The Blight, Blighted Morons like the Evanuris, super big kewl dragons. So You Go Tear the Veil. First thing we know for sure, demons and spirits will burst forth, and cause X amount of destruction. Tevinter is probably the one nation who can protect themselves the best and perhaps Nevarra. Magic is back, so mages, humans, elves, Qunari will probably get empowered, and the non mage might get some power but that will probably end poorly. Who benefit from this ? Dalish? Nah. City Elves. Nah. Most of that population is non mage and highly vulnerable. Humans? Possibly. And who's the strongest mage nation? Ah yes Tevinter. So now if you want elves to be uber elves again, you gotta get rid of Tevinter. So war it is. And the Blight? It's still there, YAY. I won't mention the Blighted Gods, because well we already know how that part of the plan is going.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 24, 2024 20:21:39 GMT
At least the Catalyst is completely honest with us. So Solas is worse than the Catalyst. Weeeell, we don't know that. Indoctrination Theory will forever be my headcanon. Pick synthesis and the reapers win is what happens in my head. I’m going by canon. If IT is real, Destroy should be the least trusted option since why would the Catalyst tell you how to kill him and the Reapers unless he’s forced to be honest about everything? Plus that means ME3 has no ending.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Jun 24, 2024 20:35:17 GMT
Weeeell, we don't know that. Indoctrination Theory will forever be my headcanon. Pick synthesis and the reapers win is what happens in my head. I’m going by canon. If IT is real, Destroy should be the least trusted option since why would the Catalyst tell you how to kill him and the Reapers unless he’s forced to be honest about everything? Plus that means ME3 has no ending. The catalyst shouldn't allow destroy as an option at all regardless. Because it doesn't end the conflict. It's NOT a solution to the problem. The catalyst even says so. It makes no sense from reaper logic. The endings are just one collosal clusterfuck. So might as well pick whatever headcanon sounds less moronic than what we got on screen, lol.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 24, 2024 21:03:12 GMT
It would also be in like with Solas saying "the return of my people means the end of yours". Because Thedosians as they were will end - restoring a conscious connection with the Fade to most people, where most people are not used or prepared for it? Oh, that would certainly shatter the present world order and how things are, from global to personal level. I'm sorry but that is not what he meant. He is not just changing the political landscape, they are going to be destroyed. He does not deny this when the Inquisitor challenges him on it. He does not deny this when Charter challenges him on it and she definitely understood that it would mean the death of her human lover. He does not deny it when Varric is standing there challenging him on it. He just responds that death is inevitable. "They're going to be destroyed" is as much of an assumption, as that they everyone are going to have magic restored. Nowhere in the text he says that he's going to destroy all non-elves - at best he talks about the restoration of 'his people' (whatever it means) or destruction of the world - same way he was talking about the destruction of Elvenhan. He destroyed the civilization. He changed the people. But he didn't kill them all. Also - when he talked with Charter nowhere he said that anyone but elves are going to die - only that 'elves that remain' may find the changed world better. Also, I'd like to point out that when Varric was standing there and challenging him, not only he talks predominantly about people attacked by demons ("people are dying already!") - in fact, WHENEVER Varric talks (in what we saw of DAVe) about Solas plans, he talks about being "ass-deep in demons forever" basically, and not all of the non-elves or non-magical folks just going up in flames. I have to admit I am continuously baffled at the idea that ONLY Solas being hell-bent on destroying virtually *everyone* is a thing worth redeeming, or stopping Like... I look at all those discussions about Solas and stopping him and that's the conclusion I get: that some people think that, unless Solas plan is something that causes pretty much TOTAL DESTRUCTION, with maximum number of casualties, then it's... not as big of a deal??? And I have to ask... wut? Considering what has been established about Solas - that underneath all that detachment and grumpiness he's a caring person who highly values individual freedoms, why *wouldn't he* agonize over having to do something that endangers lives of fewer people than the entire population? That either when created the Veil to block the connection, and when he tries to dismantle it to restore it - he ultimately makes those decisions for them? Also - I have to ask why arguing that his plan may not in fact endanger ALL (non-elf?) life is so often dismissed as arguing that there isn't going to be a widespread destruction with many casualties? Nobody who knows Thedas lore, what demons do when they're unleased on the world, or what happens to those who can't control their magic should think that suddenly removing the Veil and restoring magic to people is not a thing that will end in death and chaos. Heck, we've even had a taste of that in gameplay reveal in DAVe, and that was just relatively few demons unleashed on a land where magic is revered and widely used - think how much chaos a 'mere' rain of demons would bring on the magic-fearing South?
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 24, 2024 21:09:41 GMT
keep in mind that sandals prophecy likely refers to the Dwarves as much as anyone. The Titan in Descent woke up and started reaching out for the Dwarves specifically because of the Breech. So it's very likely that if the Veil completely came down then ALL the Titans would wake up in an effort to reestablish contact. I agree, and also - without a shadow of a doubt the Titans will be a party of the story of Elvenhan, and very likely a part of the story of Evanuris (given the overt clues we were given in Trespasser in particular), but I still wonder how did that war with Titans and Elves looked like, and what is the role of dwarves in all of this. Out of all the races, they seem to be connected to the Titans the most.
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Post by Reznore on Jun 24, 2024 21:47:21 GMT
Anyway, ladies and gents...who's single, an elven god, and has hair. Elgar'nan.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 24, 2024 22:40:37 GMT
Anyway, ladies and gents...who's single, an elven god, and has hair. Elgar'nan. Probably none of them, since at the Q&A they said elves become bald once they hit 1000 years old.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 24, 2024 22:54:14 GMT
Anyway, ladies and gents...who's single, an elven god, and has hair. Elgar'nan. Is he truly single, or is he with Ghila'nain now tho? Although that's an interesting thought... what if Ghilan'nain and Elgar'nan worked together to free themselves from their prison, but now that they're free either they go their separate ways or are like "no - I'll rule the world all by myself!" and half of future DA will be about us siccing them on one another?
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Post by helios969 on Jun 24, 2024 23:12:00 GMT
Plus that means ME3 has no ending. Many would argue it has no ending.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 25, 2024 7:21:04 GMT
"They're going to be destroyed" is as much of an assumption, as that they everyone are going to have magic restored. Nowhere in the text he says that he's going to destroy all non-elves - at best he talks about the restoration of 'his people' (whatever it means) or destruction of the world - same way he was talking about the destruction of Elvenhan. When talking with a friendly Inquisitor, when they ask why he bothered stopping the Qun when he was going to destroy everything anyway. He says how he would rather they spend their last days in comfort free of the Qun because: "If they must die, I would rather they die in comfort." (He doesn't say the Inquisitor misunderstood the results; he confirms the assumption) Then later the Inquisitor says: "You'd murder countless people? To which Solas responds: "Wouldn't you to save your own?" There is no denial. He had already said the world would burn in raw chaos when he removed the Veil which sounded pretty dire to me but should there be any ambiguity in that he confirms that what the Inquisitor declares is correct. They are all going to die. He is assuaging his conscience by allowing them a few years peace. He even says that drawing them there allowed him to save them from the anchor that is killing them.... at least for now. Where is there any doubt that not just everyone connected with the Inquisitor but Solas himself thinks that tearing down the Veil will result in their death (except for a very few exceptions among the elves). Further examples: Solas to the Inquisitor: Live well while time remains. Solas to Charter: Why did you come? (To a meeting of people trying to stop him) Charter: "Because you told the Inquisitor that you were going to destroy this world. Did you expect us not to try to stop you?" Solas: It was a moment of weakness. I told myself that it was because you all deserved to know, to live a few years in peace before my ritual was complete. Before this world ended. Weekes as the author had plenty of opportunity here to correct the assumption that the majority of inhabitants of the world were going to perish as a result of his actions but chose not to. All he did was to have Solas say the rather ambiguous statement that "the elves who still remain" may even find the results better when it is done. (So there is a chance they won't). Even Charter appreciated that would not include Tessa, a human. It is possible to sympathise with Solas but please don't apologise for his actions on the basis that they are not intended to be as bad as everyone thinks they will be. It is possible that they won't but the fact is he believes they will and yet carries on regardless.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 25, 2024 7:48:13 GMT
Anyway, ladies and gents...who's single, an elven god, and has hair. Elgar'nan. Probably none of them, since at the Q&A they said elves become bald once they hit 1000 years old. He has a fancy hat though. Besides he can do magic, perhaps he can magic it back. Anything not to look like the Dread Wolf.
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Post by Reznore on Jun 25, 2024 9:11:52 GMT
Anyway, ladies and gents...who's single, an elven god, and has hair. Elgar'nan. Is he truly single, or is he with Ghila'nain now tho? Although that's an interesting thought... what if Ghilan'nain and Elgar'nan worked together to free themselves from their prison, but now that they're free either they go their separate ways or are like "no - I'll rule the world all by myself!" and half of future DA will be about us siccing them on one another? I mean he murdered his wife, then the Solas shenanigans then in prison for who knows how long. Granted no one knows what happened behind close doors. The elven gods didn't get along, and old Elgar'nan was the Big Daddy ...I imagine he wants his big daddy chair again, and Ghila'nain is a obvious case of Girls Just Wanna Have Fun. Also they have a common ennemy, that one dude named Solas.
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Post by helios969 on Jun 25, 2024 9:41:26 GMT
Ghila'nain is a obvious case of Girls Just Wanna Have Fun. Valley girl abomination confirmed...nose job gone awry.
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Jun 25, 2024 9:59:03 GMT
Ghila'nain is a obvious case of Girls Just Wanna Have Fun. Valley girl abomination confirmed...nose job gone awry. More like mad scientist.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 25, 2024 10:54:18 GMT
I mean he murdered his wife, then the Solas shenanigans then in prison for who knows how long. Did anyone outside of the Dalish ever confirm Elgar'nan and Mythal were an item? I mean people have just assumed that when Flemeth ranted on about how "she was betrayed as I was betrayed" it indicated they were both betrayed by their respective spouses but beyond that all that seemed apparent from the ancient texts is that Mythal and Elgar'nan were the two leading Evanuris, with Mythal seeming the one who mostly dispensed justice on a day to day basis but when things were really serious she deferred to Elgar'nan for final judgement. It was noticeable also that much of the time it was Mythal the other gods appealed to, asking her to take action when another god strayed out of line, rather than Elgar'nan, presumably because you really didn't want to involve him or invite his ire. I've always argued that the other gods wouldn't have moved against Mythal without his approval, whether he was her husband or not, because none of them (apart from perhaps Falon'Din) wished to antagonise him, but I do wonder just what sort of bonds did exist between him and Mythal other than mutual respect of the other's power. Likely the reason he agreed to her murder was to free him from any constraints he felt from her presence in the pantheon.
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Post by Envisionary on Jun 25, 2024 11:05:58 GMT
I don' see this conversation going anywhere, so this will be my last response to you on this sub-topic over here: [spoilered for lenght]: That is Varric's choice not to lie down and die. That has nothing to do with what Solas intended. None of this is about "what Solas intended" - rather, all of this is you ascribing to Solas intentions that make no sense. Well I'm glad you admit that you're just assuming several things.
However, by that logic all of or characters we are playing are selfish, because they've decided to act "after they were personally affected" as well.
If Mythal's death was ultimately the catalyst for Evanuris to *destroy the entire world*, why wouldn't he get mad? If Mythal's death means that *all the other ways to depose and get rid of Evanuris and free the people* now won't work, that the Blight is on the loose and he has to create the Veil and destroy Elvenhan, why shouldn't they suffer eternity of torment? Never mind that you already know that Solas has instigated the slave rebellion before the Evanuris killed Mythal, and was not motivated by her or her whereabouts, but realization that the Evanuris are doing really bad stuff... I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but no? Solas is not all that matter for Solas - which is why Solas is unhappy both with having to create the Veil as well as having to tear it down, lol. It's not that hard to understand, especially if one doesn't bend over backwards to twist his character into a cartoonish villain.
Um, are you feeling better now that you've let your Solas hatred loose? Like... I see now there's nothing anyone can say about Solas that you wouldn't twist into something bad - you even hold against him his brief moment of deep pain and anguish just after losing one of his few remaining friends (the fact that he's lost it due to people's ignorance is worse, not better); the pain and anguish he can hold back if Inquisitor gently calls him by his name. Also no, Solas doesn't actively despises the elves - he has a beef with the Dalish, particularly because the Dalish often see themselves as the true elves, true stewards of ancient elvhen culture, only for them to worship the ancient subjugators he tried to free elves from, while ascribing to him the role of the elven devil. Yes, that Mythal. Whatever you think of Mythal, her death meant that basically all was lost - there was no way of making it through without creating the Veil and destroying Elvenhan. It's quite likely that the only reason the Sentinels were still standing vigil over a pool* is specifically because Mythal was murdered, and her work in dismantling the Evanuris - and whatever magic they used to subjugate the elves - was left unfinished. *that's not just some pool; the Well Of Sorrows is very important for some reason and may be importan in DAVe as well. Weirdly condescending, pedantic, and passive-aggressive at multiple points during this entire conversation, but okay.
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azarhal
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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azarhal
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by azarhal on Jun 25, 2024 11:44:27 GMT
I mean he murdered his wife, then the Solas shenanigans then in prison for who knows how long. Did anyone outside of the Dalish ever confirm Elgar'nan and Mythal were an item? I mean people have just assumed that when Flemeth ranted on about how "she was betrayed as I was betrayed" it indicated they were both betrayed by their respective spouses but beyond that all that seemed apparent from the ancient texts is that Mythal and Elgar'nan were the two leading Evanuris, with Mythal seeming the one who mostly dispensed justice on a day to day basis but when things were really serious she deferred to Elgar'nan for final judgement. It was noticeable also that much of the time it was Mythal the other gods appealed to, asking her to take action when another god strayed out of line, rather than Elgar'nan, presumably because you really didn't want to involve him or invite his ire. I've always argued that the other gods wouldn't have moved against Mythal without his approval, whether he was her husband or not, because none of them (apart from perhaps Falon'Din) wished to antagonise him, but I do wonder just what sort of bonds did exist between him and Mythal other than mutual respect of the other's power. Likely the reason he agreed to her murder was to free him from any constraints he felt from her presence in the pantheon. The "she was betrayed as I was betrayed" gets even weirder if the betrayal was actually the same since Flemeth ran away with a lover and the betrayal was her husband promising to let them go safely if he could see her one more time. He lied.
Also, since I just finished DAI last night, Morrigan talks of a betrayal, but Abelas switched it to a murder. They might not be talking about the same event in the end. As I always said, you can't be betrayed by your enemies.
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