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Post by midnight tea on Jul 12, 2024 23:01:41 GMT
I don't mind being able to influence characters, there's just something very hollow to me about BG3 companions. I can take control of Lae'zel, initiate a dialogue sequence, and select options completely out of character for her. They seemingly never form meaningful relationships with each other outside a handful of scripted interactions, most of which only exist in the first act, and banter that rarely ever moves beyond the superficial. (He's a vampire! She's a cleric! They don't like each other! Now they do!) There's certainly no banter that comes close to Solas and Bull's chess match, or Varric and Solas's argument about the lonely man on an island, or Cole telling Blackwall, 'it's not about you.' As someone who also appreciated Karlach, I will say I enjoyed her interactions in the city of Baldur's Gate. It worked very well. I feel like BG3 is better when it comes down to interactions between MC and companions, but interactions between companions are better in DA series. Banter in BG3 feels like a small talk that exists to fill silence and not something meaningful with some exceptions. That perception would probably be alleviated by banter rate being fixed. Because yes, to my knowledge, there's a banter bug in BG3. It just doesn't fire as consistently as it should past Act 1.
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Post by jennica on Jul 12, 2024 23:05:35 GMT
I feel like BG3 is better when it comes down to interactions between MC and companions, but interactions between companions are better in DA series. Banter in BG3 feels like a small talk that exists to fill silence and not something meaningful with some exceptions. That perception would probably be alleviated by banter rate being fixed. Because yes, to my knowledge, there's a banter bug in BG3. It just doesn't fire as consistently as it should past Act 1. Nah, i listened to BG3 banter on Youtube and i still don't find it good for the most part.
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Post by illuminated11 on Jul 12, 2024 23:12:40 GMT
I don't mind being able to influence characters, there's just something very hollow to me about BG3 companions. I can take control of Lae'zel, initiate a dialogue sequence, and select options completely out of character for her. They seemingly never form meaningful relationships with each other outside a handful of scripted interactions, most of which only exist in the first act, and banter that rarely ever moves beyond the superficial. (He's a vampire! She's a cleric! They don't like each other! Now they do!) There's certainly no banter that comes close to Solas and Bull's chess match, or Varric and Solas's argument about the lonely man on an island, or Cole telling Blackwall, 'it's not about you.' As someone who also appreciated Karlach, I will say I enjoyed her interactions in the city of Baldur's Gate. It worked very well. I feel like BG3 is better when it comes down to interactions between MC and companions, but interactions between companions are better in DA series. Banter in BG3 feels like a small talk that exists to fill silence and not something meaningful with some exceptions. That's fair.
And yes, I also listened to the banter on youtube. My opinion remains the same.
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Post by roselavellan on Jul 13, 2024 4:55:28 GMT
It's always interesting how people perceive things differently because I didn't see the main character of BG3 as shaping Lae'zel, Astarion or Shadowheart. Astarion and Lae'zel don't really become good in the true sense and still retain most of their edge, they just can have a start of something better at the end. Shadowheart always seemed good deep down anyway but it was stifled due to brainwashing, and some of the characters can make their own choices themselves without any persuasion. I also think it's because influencing friends is not so unbelievable to me. I've seen it happen plenty of times to people I knew throughout my own life, for the better or worse, just by who they decided to hang around. For Bioware, I guess I wouldn't mind companions being influenced by Rook, if it's minuscule and something about them stays true to themselves....especially if it can end up being their own decisions just by observing your actions. Oftentimes, I just think it's handled clunky or too quickly, or with strange dialogue. However I always appreciated Bioware letting some of the companions be influenced in their games, even if it was sometimes done in ways I didn't like. I don't think it's unrealistic to influence others, I just think it's unrealistic to influence others on the scale it happens in BG3. I liked that in Bioware, you can influence a few companions, but not all. And in BG3, I do think that the extent to which you can shape them is mind-boggling.
You can influence Lae'zel to lead the resistance, to idolise another leader, or to damn herself for eternity. You can basically tell Gale not to kill himself, then change your mind and tell him to kill himself. The difference between Spawn and Ascended Astarion is stark, as is the difference between good and dark Shadowheart. For Astarion and Shadowheart, individually their stories work. But in totality, considering you've gone around [persuading] half of Faerun, (edit: successfully) told various people to kill themselves etc, it just becomes a bit much.
Add to that what illuminated said above, which I agree with, that there is something hollow about BG3 companions. I think they were written with options and permutations in mind, not necessarily for depth of character. Ultimately, they felt like dolls to me, pliable but shallow. And while I have faith in Bioware's writers, there is always a little fear at the back of my mind that they might try to replicate BG3's success.
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on Jul 13, 2024 5:45:45 GMT
I don't think it's unrealistic to influence others, I just think it's unrealistic to influence others on the scale it happens in BG3. I liked that in Bioware, you can influence a few companions, but not all. And in BG3, I do think that the extent to which you can shape them is mind-boggling.
You can influence Lae'zel to lead the resistance, to idolise another leader, or to damn herself for eternity. You can basically tell Gale not to kill himself, then change your mind and tell him to kill himself. The difference between Spawn and Ascended Astarion is stark, as is the difference between good and dark Shadowheart. For Astarion and Shadowheart, individually their stories work. But in totality, considering you've gone around [persuading] half of Faerun, told various people to kill themselves etc, it just becomes a bit much.
Add to that what illuminated said above, which I agree with, that there is something hollow about BG3 companions. I think they were written with options and permutations in mind, not necessarily for depth of character. Ultimately, they felt like dolls to me, pliable but shallow. And while I have faith in Bioware's writers, there is always a little fear at the back of my mind that they might try to replicate BG3's success.
I guess I felt that the companions in BG3 all came to their own conclusions well enough for me. I rarely tried to persuade them on anything, just told them my own opinions and watched them make their own decisions. I think with Lae'zel I would've had to actually persuade her not to go against Vlaakith in my game after the discovered betrayal, but it helps when you're playing a class not good in persuasion anyway. Actually Wyll was the only one that forced me to make decisions for him, which I was disappointed with. As for Astarion, the difference between spawn and the vampire ascendant was not surprising for me and made sense. You can take the sweetest person in the DnD setting, have them become a true vampire and they turn pretty evil and twisted. I do agree with the fact that I don't like you can make them go completely out of character if you control them, which is why I never used them. I think for me, the problem is not with Larian's companions themselves, I personally think they're very well written, but they're all uber super unique in the same game. There's not really a more relatable random Joe like Blackwall, Alistair, Merrill, or Cassandra etc. and it can give off the special snowflake syndrome for my taste at times. I think they're made that way because they're all origin characters, again also not for me so I avoid playing as them. However I really don't think you have much to worry about in terms of Bioware being inspired by BG3 as it seems to be heading in a more action oriented direction with less control of companions, if anything, I feel that BG3 was inspired by Bioware. To each their own though! I'm not here to convince people to like what I like. I was just making the comparison because influencing companions is not something I would want to see Bioware drop at all, maybe just fine tune with each game. And there were occasions even with Bioware where I thought the influence either happened too fast with one line or they went too far (mostly in Origins). Inquisition I think was one of the better games with influence imo.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 13, 2024 6:27:01 GMT
It's always interesting how people perceive things differently because I didn't see the main character of BG3 as shaping Lae'zel, Astarion or Shadowheart. Astarion and Lae'zel don't really become good in the true sense and still retain most of their edge, they just can have a start of something better at the end. Shadowheart always seemed good deep down anyway but it was stifled due to brainwashing, and some of the characters can make their own choices themselves without any persuasion. I also think it's because influencing friends is not so unbelievable to me. I've seen it happen plenty of times to people I knew throughout my own life, for the better or worse, just by who they decided to hang around. For Bioware, I guess I wouldn't mind companions being influenced by Rook, if it's minuscule and something about them stays true to themselves....especially if it can end up being their own decisions just by observing your actions. Oftentimes, I just think it's handled clunky or too quickly, or with strange dialogue. However I always appreciated Bioware letting some of the companions be influenced in their games, even if it was sometimes done in ways I didn't like. I don't think it's unrealistic to influence others, I just think it's unrealistic to influence others on the scale it happens in BG3. I liked that in Bioware, you can influence a few companions, but not all. And in BG3, I do think that the extent to which you can shape them is mind-boggling.
You can influence Lae'zel to lead the resistance, to idolise another leader, or to damn herself for eternity. You can basically tell Gale not to kill himself, then change your mind and tell him to kill himself. The difference between Spawn and Ascended Astarion is stark, as is the difference between good and dark Shadowheart. For Astarion and Shadowheart, individually their stories work. But in totality, considering you've gone around [persuading] half of Faerun, (edit: successfully) told various people to kill themselves etc, it just becomes a bit much.
Add to that what illuminated said above, which I agree with, that there is something hollow about BG3 companions. I think they were written with options and permutations in mind, not necessarily for depth of character. Ultimately, they felt like dolls to me, pliable but shallow. And while I have faith in Bioware's writers, there is always a little fear at the back of my mind that they might try to replicate BG3's success.
But this sort of "silver tongue" playthrough happens if you invest enough in charisma/persuasion, have good enough relationship with companions... or have enough patience to reload saves to get a good dice roll I'm also not really sure I'd say that we "influence" others, if the outcome of their personal quests/relationship/else is reliant on us either having to go through certain companion-related content, making certain choices, discussing things with them or them simply liking us enough. We can lock ourselves out of a number of persuasion options or relationship routes - I know, because I sure did at times when I missed things or said/didn't say this, etc. (and I usually play high charisma classes). I also think character being "influencable" is a bit of a wrong way to look at it - it's sort of like... hmmm... like characters being pansexual being confused with them being playersexual. But those are not the same things. It's similar with the outcomes of their stories - characters in BG3 have their own minds and opinions, but are simply at a point in their life where (if your Tav proves to be trustworthy/reliable, or be persuasive/manipulative enough) they choose to trust that you'll help them when they themselves are torn or can't see things clearly - quite like Leliana in Inquisition. Or Solas (potentially in DAVe as well). The fact that a lot more companions are written that way doesn't make them "pliable but shallow", same way neither Leliana or Solas are. (also - I think it's a bit unfair to characterize Gale basically as someone who will or will not kill himself based on our whims. Gale's conflicted, but his mind is pretty much set - he will blow himself up and potentially all of us with him, and all we can do is hold him back on multiple occasions. The only way you can "change your mind" is if you eventually choose to relent to him INSISTING that it's time for him to use the orb) IMO Larian has simply used an opportunity to give their characters more varied endings, since they can do that - because BG3 adventure is self-contained and it's unlikely most of those characters will show up in BG4. I love DA and what BW is doing with their overarching story and character retention, but the truth is that - in order to tell that story - they have to limit our character's influence on events and other characters. Hence many characters have to be on a path that - on the other hand - has the advantage of portraying them as having more of their own agenda. So it's simply that in BG3 more characters can have more varied endings - but how else to trigger those endings if not through actions of our played character? I wouldn't however characterize our ability to set companions on very different routes as "unrealistic influence", especially given the amount of hoops we have to hop through to get some specific outcomes.
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Post by illuminated11 on Jul 13, 2024 6:56:08 GMT
The Origins system is awful in BG3, although I don’t want to harp on it too much since I did have a lot of fun with the game, and also this thread isn’t about BG3. Still, it says a lot when Jaheira, a hero from hundreds of years ago, feels like a breath of fresh air and more down to earth than every Origin character combined.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 13, 2024 7:22:04 GMT
Ultimately, they felt like dolls to me, pliable but shallow. And while I have faith in Bioware's writers, there is always a little fear at the back of my mind that they might try to replicate BG3's success. Whilst occasionally I don't agree with the amount of influence Bioware gives our PC over others, usually they are pretty solid with this. So far as BG3 is concerned, Bioware really seemed to kick off the companion interaction/PC influence over them when they were dealing with the Forgotten Realms setting in BG1 and BG2. I remember there were no actual romances in BG1 and there was mostly just banter but this proved so popular that they expanded on it in BG2 and introduced the romances. As far as influencing companions went, most of the time it did seem to be just encouraging them to keep to path they were on but it was possible to influence Anomen, who started off as lawful neutral, into either being good or bad. However, it didn't feel forced, just how the narrative developed concerning him and what your own character's outlook was. Then players were asking whether in Throne of Bhaal it might be possible to influence Viconia into changing her alignement (because she was a very popular romance option) and I remember DG saying how it would be difficult because of how much she had been conditioned by her early life among the Drow but ultimately it was possible, not simply because of one decision or statement by our PC but a series of them, a bit like hardening or softening Leliana in DAI, although I have always criticised the way that was done because basically you were locked in one way or the other after the first decision in the sequence, where I thought that logically you wouldn't interfere and she wouldn't pay attention to you if you did. Nevertheless, you can order her not to kill the cleric at the end but she will ignore you if you hadn't done the sequence that would change her mind on this. So, I think that Bioware do know how to build a relationship path that may give you influence over your companion where it does feel earned and natural. Why would they change this just because BG3 did it differently? To be honest I think DAV is more likely going to be a combination of DAI with ME2 when it comes to companion interactions and how our relationship with them develops. (Both won Game of the Year so why wouldn't they go with that successful formula of their own?) The only area where they may have been influenced by BG3 is over making all the companions pansexual. However, that may have been just as much from feedback from DAI, where players complained they couldn't romance certain companions because of their sexuality, and also MEA where there was a similar backlash I seem to recall over Jaal, so they changed it in a later patch.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 13, 2024 7:25:47 GMT
The Origins system is awful in BG3, although I don’t want to harp on it too much since I did have a lot of fun with the game, and also this thread isn’t about BG3. Still, it says a lot when Jaheira, a hero from hundreds of years ago, feels like a breath of fresh air and more down to earth than every Origin character combined. Ah, I see a fellow veteran player from the BG1/BG2/ToB era. I loved those games and the companions in them. (It still rankles, though, that they cut the Haer'Dalis romance through lack of time/resources - still I suppose you can't have everything.)
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Post by helios969 on Jul 13, 2024 7:51:20 GMT
Still, it says a lot when Jaheira, a hero from hundreds of years ago, feels like a breath of fresh air and more down to earth The companion I wished I could have romanced most in BG3...which seems to happen to me more often than not in RP games...always that one character that isn't romanceable.
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Post by roselavellan on Jul 13, 2024 8:05:18 GMT
To each their own though! I'm not here to convince people to like what I like. I was just making the comparison because influencing companions is not something I would want to see Bioware drop at all, maybe just fine tune with each game. And there were occasions even with Bioware where I thought the influence either happened too fast with one line or they went too far (mostly in Origins). Inquisition I think was one of the better games with influence imo. Oh, I agree. I'm not against influence at all, I think it's necessary for the player to feel invested in their companions' character arcs. I guess I didn't like the way they did it in BG3.
So it's simply that in BG3 more characters can have more varied endings - but how else to trigger those endings if not through actions of our played character? I did feel like the focus in BG3 was more on their varied endings. A lot of players, myself included, appreciated the variety of options and outcomes in the game, but perhaps with the breadth of outcomes, it was difficult, or more time consuming, to flesh all the possible permutations out. I did feel like Act 3 needed a lot more time in development to tie up stories in a more satisfactory way (Wyll or Halsin, possibly, were victims of this?), and that might or might not be related to my gripes about the game and the companions.
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Post by illuminated11 on Jul 13, 2024 8:19:16 GMT
The Origins system is awful in BG3, although I don’t want to harp on it too much since I did have a lot of fun with the game, and also this thread isn’t about BG3. Still, it says a lot when Jaheira, a hero from hundreds of years ago, feels like a breath of fresh air and more down to earth than every Origin character combined. Ah, I see a fellow veteran player from the BG1/BG2/ToB era. I loved those games and the companions in them. (It still rankles, though, that they cut the Haer'Dalis romance through lack of time/resources - still I suppose you can't have everything.) BG2 is one of the best rpgs ever made, as far as I’m concerned. It still annoys me, what they did to Viconia in three. While BG1 companions were fairly underwritten compared to later Bioware games, I always appreciated the breadth of characters. I liked that you can join up with two sketchy dudes on the way to Nashkel and then ditch them once you get there. It facilitated the sense of being on an adventure, of flowing in and out of people’s lives.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 15, 2024 19:02:48 GMT
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 15, 2024 19:15:32 GMT
"As much as I adore the companions and the journeys I've been on with them in past Dragon Age titles – previously, it feels like companions are going on an adventure with me, the main character, whether it's the Hero of Ferelden or Hawke, you name it. But in [Veilguard], in many ways, the companions are so fleshed out that it feels as though I'm going on a journey with them. I'm exploring how they think and feel; I'm helping them through their problems. We're working through their unique character arcs. They feel like my dear friends, and I absolutely adore them."
Honestly getting really annoyed at them continually putting down past companions to try to sell these new ones, even though their selling points are the same as past companions.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 15, 2024 19:26:14 GMT
"As much as I adore the companions and the journeys I've been on with them in past Dragon Age titles – previously, it feels like companions are going on an adventure with me, the main character, whether it's the Hero of Ferelden or Hawke, you name it. But in [Veilguard], in many ways, the companions are so fleshed out that it feels as though I'm going on a journey with them. I'm exploring how they think and feel; I'm helping them through their problems. We're working through their unique character arcs. They feel like my dear friends, and I absolutely adore them."Honestly getting really annoyed at them continually putting down past companions to try to sell these new ones, even though their selling points are the same as past companions. how is this putting down previous companions? Heck as much as I love them other than for 2 this is a pretty accurate statement.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jul 15, 2024 19:26:46 GMT
"As much as I adore the companions and the journeys I've been on with them in past Dragon Age titles – previously, it feels like companions are going on an adventure with me, the main character, whether it's the Hero of Ferelden or Hawke, you name it. But in [Veilguard], in many ways, the companions are so fleshed out that it feels as though I'm going on a journey with them. I'm exploring how they think and feel; I'm helping them through their problems. We're working through their unique character arcs. They feel like my dear friends, and I absolutely adore them."Honestly getting really annoyed at them continually putting down past companions to try to sell these new ones, even though their selling points are the same as past companions. I suspe tthey'll always d otha tbut they'er definitely making thing ssound intrestng thoug hwhatkind o fconsequences might w eend upfacing and stuff like that.
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Post by Reznore on Jul 15, 2024 19:27:37 GMT
"As much as I adore the companions and the journeys I've been on with them in past Dragon Age titles – previously, it feels like companions are going on an adventure with me, the main character, whether it's the Hero of Ferelden or Hawke, you name it. But in [Veilguard], in many ways, the companions are so fleshed out that it feels as though I'm going on a journey with them. I'm exploring how they think and feel; I'm helping them through their problems. We're working through their unique character arcs. They feel like my dear friends, and I absolutely adore them."Honestly getting really annoyed at them continually putting down past companions to try to sell these new ones, even though their selling points are the same as past companions. I know it's total PR speak, we heard it all before. I wish they would at least throw new screenshots our way. A release trailer?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 15, 2024 19:30:02 GMT
"As much as I adore the companions and the journeys I've been on with them in past Dragon Age titles – previously, it feels like companions are going on an adventure with me, the main character, whether it's the Hero of Ferelden or Hawke, you name it. But in [Veilguard], in many ways, the companions are so fleshed out that it feels as though I'm going on a journey with them. I'm exploring how they think and feel; I'm helping them through their problems. We're working through their unique character arcs. They feel like my dear friends, and I absolutely adore them."Honestly getting really annoyed at them continually putting down past companions to try to sell these new ones, even though their selling points are the same as past companions. how is this putting down previous companions? Heck as much as I love them other than for 2 this is a pretty accurate statement. When you say “these new ones are so much better than the old ones”, it’s saying the old ones are bad in comparison.
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Post by jennica on Jul 15, 2024 19:30:48 GMT
I really like this! I wonder if Rook will also ba able to decorate their room.
I guess, she's talking about how companions can die due to our choices. And the fact that they can also romance each other will definitely add more to the drama. I love it.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 15, 2024 19:35:35 GMT
how is this putting down previous companions? Heck as much as I love them other than for 2 this is a pretty accurate statement. When you say “these new ones are so much better than the old ones”, it’s saying the old ones are bad in comparison. you do you but thats not the impression i got, quite the opposite in fact.
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MeadKnight
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Post by MeadKnight on Jul 15, 2024 19:38:30 GMT
I really like this! I wonder if Rook will also ba able to decorate their room. I guess, she's talking about how companions can die due to our choices. And the fact that they can also romance each other will definitely add more to the drama. I love it.I need to know which companions she is talking about! Also, I'm really looking forward to their rooms changing over time. I loved the book next to Sera's room just because it updated over the course of the game.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 15, 2024 19:46:45 GMT
When you say “these new ones are so much better than the old ones”, it’s saying the old ones are bad in comparison. you do you but thats not the impression i got, quite the opposite in fact. So you got that the new characters suck compared to the older ones?
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Post by Ice-Quinn on Jul 15, 2024 20:10:40 GMT
Imagine if our companions start romancing each other, and with their rooms evolving over time, you find more and more seks toys in one of their rooms. Rook trips and falls because of a stray deeldough left on the floor and breaks a hip. More importantly, why does my mind goes these places? 🤔 Where is Dr. Phil?
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Post by Reznore on Jul 15, 2024 20:22:38 GMT
I tried to replay DAI like a month ago, I arrived in Skyhold. After a while running around the castle to speak to everybody got to me . This + going outside Skyhold with not much going on. So I don't know what they're talking about in this article. The whole companions having their own space: done. Fixing their problems : done. Romancing each others : done. I don't care to explore how they think and feel, it's not shrink simulator. I'd like to have companions with interesting story quest integrated into the world/main quests. Remember Alistair being King? Morrigan and the babie? Isabella stealing the book ? Anders going boom? Solas. That is good stuff.
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Post by illuminated11 on Jul 15, 2024 22:00:28 GMT
For all Andromeda got wrong, I always enjoyed the way companions would move around the ship and interact with each other. I hope to see something similar here. And while Solas had his own space that changed with each mission, a lot of the companions in Skyhold just stood around in one spot out in the open, such as Varric or Cassandra, until you triggered a cutscene. So I'm glad that's now equal across the board for everyone. DA2 was very good about this as well, I thought.
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