grallon
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Post by grallon on Jul 15, 2024 23:15:21 GMT
...I don't care to explore how they think and feel, it's not shrink simulator. This is where the audience will be lectured about their 'problematic views' by proxy. You wait and see.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 15, 2024 23:32:57 GMT
I tried to replay DAI like a month ago, I arrived in Skyhold. After a while running around the castle to speak to everybody got to me . This + going outside Skyhold with not much going on. So I don't know what they're talking about in this article. The whole companions having their own space: done. Fixing their problems : done. Romancing each others : done. I don't care to explore how they think and feel, it's not shrink simulator. I'd like to have companions with interesting story quest integrated into the world/main quests. Remember Alistair being King? Morrigan and the babie? Isabella stealing the book ? Anders going boom? Solas. That is good stuff. But why would exploring what they think and feel be in opposition to them having an interesting story? Most of the interesting stories in DA happen *because* characters had thoughts and feelings. Like... I thought it's generally agreed upon that this is BW's strength? For example: DAO would be a very different game if Loghain wasn't pretty much wholly consumed by his personal hostility to Orlesians. We still have to explore motivations of Solas, but it's obvious that his thoughts and feelings play a role in his decision to do things that will reshape the world. And Alistair becoming king would be nowhere as interesting of an option if we didn't know how he felt like about the entire thing. Morrigan also wouldn't have the baby if she wasn't who she was.
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Jul 16, 2024 0:07:51 GMT
I tried to replay DAI like a month ago, I arrived in Skyhold. After a while running around the castle to speak to everybody got to me . This + going outside Skyhold with not much going on. So I don't know what they're talking about in this article. The whole companions having their own space: done. Fixing their problems : done. Romancing each others : done. I don't care to explore how they think and feel, it's not shrink simulator. I'd like to have companions with interesting story quest integrated into the world/main quests. Remember Alistair being King? Morrigan and the babie? Isabella stealing the book ? Anders going boom? Solas. That is good stuff. But why would exploring what they think and feel be in opposition to them having an interesting story? Most of the interesting stories in DA happen *because* characters had thoughts and feelings. Like... I thought it's generally agreed upon that this is BW's strength? Yeah. I think this is just going to add even more spice to the kind of thing we got in previous games. Imagine the extra layers on all the Origins endgame choices if the companions were running around romancing each other! (Do you fancy sending Alistair to sleep with Morrigan if he's dating Leliana? How about sending him to do the Ultimate Sacrifice instead?)
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Post by colfoley on Jul 16, 2024 0:19:18 GMT
I tried to replay DAI like a month ago, I arrived in Skyhold. After a while running around the castle to speak to everybody got to me . This + going outside Skyhold with not much going on. So I don't know what they're talking about in this article. The whole companions having their own space: done. Fixing their problems : done. Romancing each others : done. I don't care to explore how they think and feel, it's not shrink simulator. I'd like to have companions with interesting story quest integrated into the world/main quests. Remember Alistair being King? Morrigan and the babie? Isabella stealing the book ? Anders going boom? Solas. That is good stuff. Don't know how you can like any BioWare game given this is what we do in every single BioWare game to this date, exploring how characters think and feel and dealing with their psychological problems.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 16, 2024 0:43:13 GMT
But why would exploring what they think and feel be in opposition to them having an interesting story? Most of the interesting stories in DA happen *because* characters had thoughts and feelings. Like... I thought it's generally agreed upon that this is BW's strength? Yeah. I think this is just going to add even more spice to the kind of thing we got in previous games. Imagine the extra layers on all the Origins endgame choices if the companions were running around romancing each other! (Do you fancing sending Alistair to sleep with Morrigan if he's dating Leliana? How about sending him to do the Ultimate Sacrifice instead?)
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Post by colfoley on Jul 16, 2024 1:22:14 GMT
So other then firing off the random vauge comment or so we actually got a lot from this article and most it sounds good, and now I have at least some time to give my more general thoughts on it. First some flaws: -Now obviously this is PR speak. Granted I kind of feel like even pointing this out is like just patting ourselves on the back for pointing out the obvious here. So yes obviously the rubber will meet the road eventually and we will get our hands on this game then we will each judge how successful they are on their own. For my own part as I have stated it is going to take a lot for them to surpass Inquisition's cast. They were just so well written and personable, I didn't really find too many writing flaws with any of them unlike in previous instalments and they pretty much all weren't one note. Sure I didn't personally get along with Blackwall and Vivienne all the time but even they were far more complex then actual poorly written characters of the past. But really it sounds like they could pull it off if they stick to their guns. -What about Rook? Over compensation has been a thing and while they may have 'accidentally' stumbled upon some great companions in the past this is something BioWare has struggled with in the past. And given resources and given the whack-a-mole effect which often happens during writing or creating fiction sometimes fixing one 'mistake' leads to another. So its been a thing that has happened and BioWare has, to be fair, done both. Ryder and Hawke's character journeys and arcs were almost every bit as fleshed out as those of their companions who had multi faceted story missions and their own arcs as well. But we have also had companion character arcs and focus existing to the point that the PC gets shafted in response, the Warden, the Inquisitor, and Shepard were comparatively static...indeed I would say that the Warden and Shepard had no real BioWare inspired character arc. So all this is to say...going on way to long as usual ...that I do worry that Rook is not going to be the main character of this show and that he is going to take a back seat to that of his companions because of the focus. Given Ryder its not that big of a concern but I just hope Rook is as developped as the companions. From here though, PR speak, blah blah blah, but at least they are speaking my language and I think this suggests three things. 1. That us going on a journey with them suggests that we are going to get to go on multiple quests with them throughout the game. That its not going to be 'one and done' like with Inuqisition, Origins, or ME 2, but a full tilted story with either multiple quests or multiple quest objectives. I think this is really going to play into the relationship level because while I don't have any definitive proof yet, we have not seen it in action, I am getting more and more convinced that levelling up their 'relationship level' is something that is going to happen naturally throughout us completing their quest lines...more or less. And some of my favorite story beats in DA 2 and MEA was our multiple story quests/ objectives devoted to each companion. 2. That the faction system will play into this aspect of these games and complement each other which is something we have not seen in any BioWare game before, not really...well maybe Inquisition now that I think on it. But the idea is, and my hope which could be wrong, that each one of these characters will also feed into their faction and the faction systems. In essense I am also getting really behind the idea that this game will be the best of DAO and how they wrote the factions in that game but the character focus of ME 2 which will create one hell of a potent gameplay loop because, again much like Origins, it would add another layer of complexity to its already stellar gameplay loop. 3. Companions important to the story. Since we've gotten early news on Veilguard and even since BG III was a thing I have been hoping that the companions will be connected intimatley with the main story. Another area I felt that BioWare has struggled with at times is integrating companions into the story. Like they've had amazing stories, amazing companions, and amazing settings but the three spheres hasn't always connected seamlessly and not for every companion even. Alistair had some effect being the heir to the Ferelden Throne, Morrigan had the Dark Ritual, Anders was Timothy McVeigh in training, Solas was the Dread Wolf, and Mordin developped the Seeker countermeasures that were so effective in 2, but the companions have largely been off doing their own thing because, being an RPG, many different things could happen and BioWare either lacked the talent, guts, or resources to fully integrate succh amazing albeit 'optional' characters. In BGIII, from what I have seen and my own interpretation of what I have read, they have 'largely' solved this problem. Each companion in that game has some connection, it seems, with one of the big bads of the game or one of the main story beats of that game. Likewise we've already seen BioWare, I believe, experiment with this sort of thing in Andromeda by 'cheating'...since everything in that game fed into the main plot of making Heleus livable this also kind of included all the companion arcs as well. But this also provides a lot of fodder for crazy theories and other stuff of that nature since if they are going into the game to deliberatley make these companions important to the main plot of the story and complement one another instead of happen in isolation like in ME 2 it does beg the question of why and how. Why are there 7 of them and what could this mean for the games structure overall? I personally cannot wait for them to take a crack...lets just hope I don't hype myself up too much so I'm not dissapointed.
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Guardian
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Post by Guardian on Jul 16, 2024 2:48:12 GMT
The Origins system is awful in BG3, although I don’t want to harp on it too much since I did have a lot of fun with the game, and also this thread isn’t about BG3. Still, it says a lot when Jaheira, a hero from hundreds of years ago, feels like a breath of fresh air and more down to earth than every Origin character combined. Ah, I see a fellow veteran player from the BG1/BG2/ToB era. I loved those games and the companions in them. (It still rankles, though, that they cut the Haer'Dalis romance through lack of time/resources - still I suppose you can't have everything.) Greatest banter was between Jan and Haer'Dalis, in which Jan was describing something that happened between a bullywug and a beaver, he names "Angus the Giant Beaver", that he pitches to Haer'Dalis as a play. Swears it's true since it happened right outside his Aunt's window. I said to myself that a century may pass, but Jaheria remains the same. So yeah, it really was nice to see it. BG2 is one of the best rpgs ever made, as far as I’m concerned. It still annoys me, what they did to Viconia in three. While BG1 companions were fairly underwritten compared to later Bioware games, I always appreciated the breadth of characters. I liked that you can join up with two sketchy dudes on the way to Nashkel and then ditch them once you get there. It facilitated the sense of being on an adventure, of flowing in and out of people’s lives. Yeah...this also just....rubbed me the wrong way. I did an alternate good run with Viconia as my cleric, actually managing to get her to turn away from Shar (without even knowing it possible at the time). I read an article that it wasn't Larian's decision to make her go back on this option. It was WotC/Hasbro that said it had to be that way. Paraphrasing the quote in the article comes down to, "This isn't your Viconia, but WotC's Viconia." Xzar and Montaron were always sketchy, so I was happy to dump them at Nashkel as soon as I could
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 16, 2024 7:01:46 GMT
I really like this! I wonder if Rook will also ba able to decorate their room. I imagine we can, just like Shepard's room on the Normandy. I had my collection of space ships and my fish tank, plus the picture of my love interest. They had better not give us something that needs feeding though. That was just too stressful with the fish. May be each time we complete a quest we can add a new item to our room to remind us of it. Also, I'm really looking forward to their rooms changing over time. I loved the book next to Sera's room just because it updated over the course of the game. Yes, that was a nice touch, although it felt like reading her personal diary, which seemed a bit intrusive. Of course, the rotunda kept updating with more of Solas' murals after each quest too. I guess, she's talking about how companions can die due to our choices. I just hope it doesn't get too depressing. Also, I hope we can respond appropriately to their grief.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 16, 2024 7:16:19 GMT
Fixing their problems : done. I do get their point that on the whole the companion quests are optional, don't actually feed into the main narrative and you can leave them out altogether if you wish. You may have a different experience with the companions as a result but it doesn't impact on the progress of the story in a major way. Alistair was an exception to this in that he became involved with the Landsmeet decision but that wasn't actually his quest. That involved Goldana and really only affected which epilogue screen you get if he is made King. It turned out it wasn't true as well. Whilst it would seem that Anders was tied into the main plot, you could give him his marching orders at the end of Act 2 and he still blew up the Chantry in Act 3 without your help. I suppose the one which came closest to what I think they are suggesting is Isabella. If you ignore her personal quest and don't include her enough time to lock in the friendship/rivalry metre one way or the other, she doesn't come back at the end of Act 2, which limits your options with respect to the Arishok, although you'd have to be a right bastard to give her to him after she did come back. Anyway, I'm assuming there is going to be more of a similar type in DAV. It won't necessarily affect the outcome going forward but it will affect whether the companion is still with you or their attitude towards you, etc, and you can't avoid the situation because it is part of the main narrative. That's how I understood it anyway. Other than that, I agree that I've always seen it as developing my relationship with them until we become part of a team of friends rather than just colleagues but I suppose that has more to do with my personal game style and interpretation of the way things play out. Some people do just power through and then complain when companions turn on them. I exhaust every dialogue option. The most disappointing aspect for me with DAI was that once I had exhausted the general conversation options, most of the dialogue opportunities thereafter did occur after major quests, so if I hadn't romanced them, much of the time when I did the rounds after trudging round the open world and returning to Skyhold, there was nothing but hi and goodbye. I think it was more noticeable than in DAO (DA2 being completely different) because of the large amount of filler you could engage in between main quests. Presumably if they have returned to a more linear narrative and associated areas, there will be less awkward silences when I return to base.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 16, 2024 7:27:52 GMT
1. That us going on a journey with them suggests that we are going to get to go on multiple quests with them throughout the game. That its not going to be 'one and done' like with Inuqisition, Origins, or ME 2, but a full tilted story with either multiple quests or multiple quest objectives. I think this is really going to play into the relationship level because while I don't have any definitive proof yet, we have not seen it in action, I am getting more and more convinced that levelling up their 'relationship level' is something that is going to happen naturally throughout us completing their quest lines...more or less. And some of my favorite story beats in DA 2 and MEA was our multiple story quests/ objectives devoted to each companion. I noticed this too. There was something about how Harding had an ability which you have to tell her how to use but as you progress her story and your friendship with her, she will upgrade to do this automatically. I'm a bit fuzzy on this because it had more to do with combat mechanics and I prefer to wait and see how they work in order to understand them but I think that is what Corinne meant. It also does seem as though the companion arc will play out over multiple episodes rather than just one quest and done as in previous games. It was less obvious if you were in a romance with them because there was additional content related to that and none of it was obligatory to get through the main narrative. This time it seems there will be several episodes that are relevant to a particular companion and likely means their inclusion on the quest will be obligatory to complete it, so no more leaving the majority of companions chilling at Skyhold for the entire game because I have my favourite team that I stick to.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 16, 2024 7:40:42 GMT
Paraphrasing the quote in the article comes down to, "This isn't your Viconia, but WotC's Viconia." That's really no different to what they did with Fenris in the comic series. His attitude towards Hawke and his former companions was really a slap in the face as far as I was concerned but then I never agreed with how they treated our relationship in DAI. My Hawke would never have sent Fenris from her side for his own safety (?!!!) and judging by his words to her at the Gallows, he would never have left her voluntarily either. Mind you, my Hawke would never have seen herself as responsible for Corypheus either. It is why I don't really like seeing returning characters if it is going to mess with the story I have in my head and what was contained in the epilogue screens at the end of the game. Apart from Dorian, who they sent back to Tevinter instead of leaving him with my Inquisitor in the south so they had better include him in the narrative in some way, I would be happier leaving former companions in the south rather than having to accept the writers default outcome for that character going forward.
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Post by illuminated11 on Jul 16, 2024 8:11:53 GMT
Paraphrasing the quote in the article comes down to, "This isn't your Viconia, but WotC's Viconia." That's really no different to what they did with Fenris in the comic series. His attitude towards Hawke and his former companions was really a slap in the face as far as I was concerned but then I never agreed with how they treated our relationship in DAI. My Hawke would never have sent Fenris from her side for his own safety (?!!!) and judging by his words to her at the Gallows, he would never have left her voluntarily either. Mind you, my Hawke would never have seen herself as responsible for Corypheus either. It is why I don't really like seeing returning characters if it is going to mess with the story I have in my head and what was contained in the epilogue screens at the end of the game. Apart from Dorian, who they sent back to Tevinter instead of leaving him with my Inquisitor in the south so they had better include him in the narrative in some way, I would be happier leaving former companions in the south rather than having to accept the writers default outcome for that character going forward. The follow through—or lack thereof—for every DA2 character not named Varric (and I guess technically Cassandra) in Inquisition was certainly frustrating. Although I’m a little torn on this matter, since I thought Inquisition brought new nuances to Leliana and Morrigan, and even Grey Warden Alistair/Loghain made for a great reunion. King Alistair was pretty lackluster, however. Sera back to see how she matured in seven years would be interesting. And Vivienne always felt like there was more to her story. If anything, she might be a minor antagonist. Otherwise, I don’t really need anyone else to return. Well, other than Dorian, but that one is obvious.
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Post by roselavellan on Jul 16, 2024 9:43:49 GMT
That's really no different to what they did with Fenris in the comic series. His attitude towards Hawke and his former companions was really a slap in the face as far as I was concerned but then I never agreed with how they treated our relationship in DAI. My Hawke would never have sent Fenris from her side for his own safety (?!!!) and judging by his words to her at the Gallows, he would never have left her voluntarily either. I never did read the comics and I had to google what you meant by that, and I almost wish I didn't. I agree what they did with Fenris there was disappointing to say the least, and I feel that if one were to write the follow up for a character, especially one that was romanced, then the old adage applies, "if you have nothing good to say about someone, it's better to say nothing at all". Imagine pouring your heart and hours into nurturing a (fictional) relationship, only for them to turn bitter off-game with nothing you can do about it.
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Post by Guardian on Jul 16, 2024 10:36:17 GMT
I never did read the comics and I had to google what you meant by that, and I almost wish I didn't. I agree what they did with Fenris there was disappointing to say the least, and I feel that if one were to write the follow up for a character, especially one that was romanced, then the old adage applies, "if you have nothing good to say about someone, it's better to say nothing at all". Imagine pouring your heart and hours into nurturing a (fictional) relationship, only for them to turn bitter off-game with nothing you can do about it. That's really no different to what they did with Fenris in the comic series. His attitude towards Hawke and his former companions was really a slap in the face as far as I was concerned but then I never agreed with how they treated our relationship in DAI. My Hawke would never have sent Fenris from her side for his own safety (?!!!) and judging by his words to her at the Gallows, he would never have left her voluntarily either. Mind you, my Hawke would never have seen herself as responsible for Corypheus either. It is why I don't really like seeing returning characters if it is going to mess with the story I have in my head and what was contained in the epilogue screens at the end of the game. Apart from Dorian, who they sent back to Tevinter instead of leaving him with my Inquisitor in the south so they had better include him in the narrative in some way, I would be happier leaving former companions in the south rather than having to accept the writers default outcome for that character going forward. I never read the comic either, and it sounds like I don't want to from the above response. And I also never said it was right, just what was said in response to being asked about it. I also find it frustrating because they have been ignoring what we've done with characters in prior games for a while now. Believe me, when I saw Viconia again, it was a bit upsetting to say in the least. Sometimes, I'd rather they not bring previous characters back these days if this is how they're going to be treated.
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Post by illuminated11 on Jul 16, 2024 10:41:44 GMT
I never did read the comics and I had to google what you meant by that, and I almost wish I didn't. I agree what they did with Fenris there was disappointing to say the least, and I feel that if one were to write the follow up for a character, especially one that was romanced, then the old adage applies, "if you have nothing good to say about someone, it's better to say nothing at all". Imagine pouring your heart and hours into nurturing a (fictional) relationship, only for them to turn bitter off-game with nothing you can do about it. That's really no different to what they did with Fenris in the comic series. His attitude towards Hawke and his former companions was really a slap in the face as far as I was concerned but then I never agreed with how they treated our relationship in DAI. My Hawke would never have sent Fenris from her side for his own safety (?!!!) and judging by his words to her at the Gallows, he would never have left her voluntarily either. Mind you, my Hawke would never have seen herself as responsible for Corypheus either. It is why I don't really like seeing returning characters if it is going to mess with the story I have in my head and what was contained in the epilogue screens at the end of the game. Apart from Dorian, who they sent back to Tevinter instead of leaving him with my Inquisitor in the south so they had better include him in the narrative in some way, I would be happier leaving former companions in the south rather than having to accept the writers default outcome for that character going forward. I never read the comic either, and it sounds like I don't want to from the above response. And I also never said it was right, just what was said in response to being asked about it. I also find it frustrating because they have been ignoring what we've done with characters in prior games for a while now. Believe me, when I saw Viconia again, it was a bit upsetting to say in the least. Sometimes, I'd rather they not bring previous characters back these days if this is how they're going to be treated. Honestly, I could have lived with their interpretation of Viconia if she had been more than a final boss for Shadowheart. That was the part that really left a sour taste in my mouth. Not to mention the voice actor they cast was all wrong for the part. It’s especially annoying because Shadowheart had probably my favorite companion quest, with Lae’zel a close second.
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Post by Guardian on Jul 16, 2024 13:52:19 GMT
Absolutely agree, Illuminated. She just felt like...an afterthought. And yes, I agree about her VA. They didn't do a bad job, but it wasn't a good fit.
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Post by MeadKnight on Jul 17, 2024 19:04:18 GMT
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Post by colfoley on Jul 17, 2024 20:52:57 GMT
More this goes on the more they are speaking my language.
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sjsharp2010
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jul 17, 2024 21:25:27 GMT
More this goes on the more they are speaking my language. Mine too it's getting tt othe point wher I jus twan tthis game already. Still I' mworkin gthroug hForspoken atm so once I finis hthat I'll be making space for Veilguard. Then o fcours ethe only thing lfet wi ll be play out my firs tworld state for it.
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Post by q5tyhj on Jul 18, 2024 1:24:08 GMT
So, characters characters characters. Did I mention its all about the characters? Love me some characters. Characters, characters, characters. Mmm, mmm.
This latest article uses a lot of words, but doesn't say a whole lot. A few interesting tidbits, though. I'll take whatever info I can get, but I wish it had had less fluff and more concrete details.
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Guardian
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guardian
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Post by Guardian on Jul 18, 2024 15:19:14 GMT
Okay, so it sounds like they're returning to a focus on character stories and what makes them "them". I do agree that I wish they'd still give more concrete answers instead of vague, fluff responses, and they're trying to put a lot of vets like Epler's and Darrah's names out there, I think in hopes of appealing or soothe over concerns and doubts.
Still not enough concrete details to make an informed decision yet, but if they're going back to more character driven stories, this could be a good thing, depending on how they do it.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 20, 2024 1:34:33 GMT
Hype and pessimism can be a funny thing. You hear something and your gut reaction can be 'oh no! Or 'oh yeah!'. Then your logical centers of your brain engage and you go 'hey what about this' and then you get expectations in check till the next round of info.
I am still getting pretty hyped. In general they are saying the right things. Latest example is how the personal stories, side quests, and factions, all feed back into the main story. Que the sigh of relief.
But then of course some things still remain in the air. They mentioned that some of the companion stuff can happen 'in parallel' and that is too vague to really judge. Could be like ME 2 where those beats don't really intersect with the story at all or they develop WITH the story. Either way though.
Also still worried about Rook.
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Liepsnele
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Post by Liepsnele on Jul 20, 2024 6:00:57 GMT
Half an hour video with no new content. Hopefully we'll get more coverage in SDCC.
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Post by fairdragon on Jul 20, 2024 7:10:25 GMT
Hype and pessimism can be a funny thing. You hear something and your gut reaction can be 'oh no! Or 'oh yeah!'. Then your logical centers of your brain engage and you go 'hey what about this' and then you get expectations in check till the next round of info. I am still getting pretty hyped. In general they are saying the right things. Latest example is how the personal stories, side quests, and factions, all feed back into the main story. Que the sigh of relief. But then of course some things still remain in the air. They mentioned that some of the companion stuff can happen 'in parallel' and that is too vague to really judge. Could be like ME 2 where those beats don't really intersect with the story at all or they develop WITH the story. Either way though. Also still worried about Rook. I liked what they say about Solas and that they hope to give conclusion to everyone. So we will have different ways to aproach him.
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sjsharp2010
N7
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jul 20, 2024 12:31:47 GMT
Hype and pessimism can be a funny thing. You hear something and your gut reaction can be 'oh no! Or 'oh yeah!'. Then your logical centers of your brain engage and you go 'hey what about this' and then you get expectations in check till the next round of info. I am still getting pretty hyped. In general they are saying the right things. Latest example is how the personal stories, side quests, and factions, all feed back into the main story. Que the sigh of relief. But then of course some things still remain in the air. They mentioned that some of the companion stuff can happen 'in parallel' and that is too vague to really judge. Could be like ME 2 where those beats don't really intersect with the story at all or they develop WITH the story. Either way though. Also still worried about Rook. Yeah I'm still mostl yhyped about Veilguard. I'm still seeing moer stuff I like than stuff I'm not. But right no wI'm feeling it's goin t obe hard for me to 100% judge this gam efairly until I've had a few hours with it. I can say I do like what I'm seeing though.
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