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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jul 25, 2024 11:32:30 GMT
Do we know when specialisations kick in? They're not immediate, that much we know already. DAO and DA2 were after a set amount of levels (6 or 7), Inquisition was essentially the start of what would be considered 'Act 2' when you reach Skyhold and can recruit the trainers. IIRC they said "later in the story" for Veilguard so I'm assuming it'll be similar to Inquisition and be at the Act 2 story point. It could b eeithe rgiven the yaer on the outside of the skill tree and given we start in the middl eit coul dtake som etim et owor kout to them. I guess it might also depend on how long it takes to level up
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Post by Frost on Aug 8, 2024 12:17:43 GMT
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theascendent
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Post by theascendent on Aug 8, 2024 17:18:32 GMT
Magic is an integral storyline and gameplay feature of the setting. Mages should be getting more powerful and able to use magic in new and interesting ways. I think we need to examine them under the lense of Wizards vs Sorcerers if I can use D&D as a reference. Wizards can learn any arcane spell and can prepare a certain number to overcome their challenges. Sorcerers get a limited number of spells, but thanks to metamagic and use those spells in interesting ways to make up for it.
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Post by Frost on Aug 10, 2024 12:04:45 GMT
Magic is an integral storyline and gameplay feature of the setting. Mages should be getting more powerful and able to use magic in new and interesting ways. I think we need to examine them under the lense of Wizards vs Sorcerers if I can use D&D as a reference. Wizards can learn any arcane spell and can prepare a certain number to overcome their challenges. Sorcerers get a limited number of spells, but thanks to metamagic and use those spells in interesting ways to make up for it. They may have kept mages for story reactivity, but for combat with only 3 spells it feels like all classes in Veilguard, even mages, were designed as martial classes and not as either sorcerers or wizards. Sorcerers and wizards can cast many more than 3 spells and have combat designed around spells, not weapons. Veilguard also doesn’t include any special magic mechanics like metamagic that I have seen. Everything in Veilguard is designed around weapons with no thought for spell-based combat.
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theascendent
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Post by theascendent on Aug 10, 2024 12:23:12 GMT
Magic is an integral storyline and gameplay feature of the setting. Mages should be getting more powerful and able to use magic in new and interesting ways. I think we need to examine them under the lense of Wizards vs Sorcerers if I can use D&D as a reference. Wizards can learn any arcane spell and can prepare a certain number to overcome their challenges. Sorcerers get a limited number of spells, but thanks to metamagic and use those spells in interesting ways to make up for it. They may have kept mages for story reactivity, but for combat with only 3 spells it feels like all classes in Veilguard, even mages, were designed as martial classes and not as either sorcerers or wizards. Sorcerers and wizards can cast many more than 3 spells and have combat designed around spells, not weapons. Veilguard also doesn’t include any special magic mechanics like metamagic that I have seen. Everything in Veilguard is designed around weapons with no thought for spell-based combat. The more I read/see, the more you are convincing me, which worries me to no end.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Aug 10, 2024 15:32:03 GMT
Magic is an integral storyline and gameplay feature of the setting. Mages should be getting more powerful and able to use magic in new and interesting ways. I think we need to examine them under the lense of Wizards vs Sorcerers if I can use D&D as a reference. Wizards can learn any arcane spell and can prepare a certain number to overcome their challenges. Sorcerers get a limited number of spells, but thanks to metamagic and use those spells in interesting ways to make up for it. They may have kept mages for story reactivity, but for combat with only 3 spells it feels like all classes in Veilguard, even mages, were designed as martial classes and not as either sorcerers or wizards. Sorcerers and wizards can cast many more than 3 spells and have combat designed around spells, not weapons. Veilguard also doesn’t include any special magic mechanics like metamagic that I have seen. Everything in Veilguard is designed around weapons with no thought for spell-based combat. Veilguard is definitely looking like "Dragon Age: Andromeda"
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Post by colfoley on Aug 10, 2024 19:23:54 GMT
Magic is an integral storyline and gameplay feature of the setting. Mages should be getting more powerful and able to use magic in new and interesting ways. I think we need to examine them under the lense of Wizards vs Sorcerers if I can use D&D as a reference. Wizards can learn any arcane spell and can prepare a certain number to overcome their challenges. Sorcerers get a limited number of spells, but thanks to metamagic and use those spells in interesting ways to make up for it. They may have kept mages for story reactivity, but for combat with only 3 spells it feels like all classes in Veilguard, even mages, were designed as martial classes and not as either sorcerers or wizards. Sorcerers and wizards can cast many more than 3 spells and have combat designed around spells, not weapons. Veilguard also doesn’t include any special magic mechanics like metamagic that I have seen. Everything in Veilguard is designed around weapons with no thought for spell-based combat. except your abilities have never been the only spells that mages can cast within DA. Every time you hit the attack button you are casting a spell. And if Rogue attacks have abilities in them now as seen in the trailer its logical to assume the same has happened for warriors and mages.
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Post by jennica on Aug 10, 2024 20:29:23 GMT
They may have kept mages for story reactivity, but for combat with only 3 spells it feels like all classes in Veilguard, even mages, were designed as martial classes and not as either sorcerers or wizards. Sorcerers and wizards can cast many more than 3 spells and have combat designed around spells, not weapons. Veilguard also doesn’t include any special magic mechanics like metamagic that I have seen. Everything in Veilguard is designed around weapons with no thought for spell-based combat. except your abilities have never been the only spells that mages can cast within DA. Every time you hit the attack button you are casting a spell. And if Rogue attacks have abilities in them now as seen in the trailer its logical to assume the same has happened for warriors and mages. Yeah, Corinne Busche talked about it on twitter a bit.
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Post by illuminated11 on Aug 10, 2024 22:16:32 GMT
Yeah it sounds like major difference is much of the toolkit no longer has assigned cooldowns, and the ones that do are likely much stronger than what you always have available to you.
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Ice-Quinn
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Post by Ice-Quinn on Aug 11, 2024 2:32:46 GMT
except your abilities have never been the only spells that mages can cast within DA. Every time you hit the attack button you are casting a spell. And if Rogue attacks have abilities in them now as seen in the trailer its logical to assume the same has happened for warriors and mages. Yeah, Corinne Busche talked about it on twitter a bit.
Yes! That sounds great, ngl 🙌
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Post by Frost on Aug 11, 2024 5:01:05 GMT
except your abilities have never been the only spells that mages can cast within DA. Every time you hit the attack button you are casting a spell. And if Rogue attacks have abilities in them now as seen in the trailer its logical to assume the same has happened for warriors and mages. Yeah, Corinne Busche talked about it on twitter a bit.
That tweet sounds like spin to me.
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Post by fairdragon on Aug 11, 2024 6:08:38 GMT
Yeah, Corinne Busche talked about it on twitter a bit.
That tweet sounds like spin to me. Why that? I am 100% sure we will see mage and PC gameplay before release. So it wouldn't make sense for her to say something that isn't their. It is a factual list of the things I had already suspected. We will have as many spells as in DAI. Only in a different way to use them.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 11, 2024 7:28:43 GMT
So as a thought experiment bit of curiosity wanna see if we can actually come up with the number of 'spells'/ attacks/ things you can do in combat...
In Inquisition we had
An attack Our eight abilities (many of which included fairly basic/ ARPG staples like Dodging/ parrying/ an ultimate ability rather then them being their own thing) The Fade Touched Material option which could give you a chance of bringing another ability to combat should the player choose but this wasn't always universal.
Total 10.
In Veilguard.
Light Attack Heavy Attack Ranged Attack (While based on everything we have seen and heard in the marketing to this point indicates these are all things I do suspect that the balance and how to utilize them will be different via each class, for example mages standard light and heavy attacks could be ranged attacks then they have their magic dagger option) Block/ Magical shield for mages Dodge 3 abilities 1 rune ability (which I suspect will be a variation of Inquisition's FTM) 1 ultimate ability
Total...10.
And this isn't even really touching on the indicated combos we have seen in the gameplay demo or the marketing. Turning 'basic attacks' into the abilities from Inquisition. WE just don't know how many of them there will be in the game or the process of getting them but as with other games in the genre or anciliary genres this could really drive up our active abilities and what we are able to access in combat. Again, they probably haven't removed them, just moved them.
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Ice-Quinn
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Post by Ice-Quinn on Aug 11, 2024 8:52:27 GMT
So as a thought experiment bit of curiosity wanna see if we can actually come up with the number of 'spells'/ attacks/ things you can do in combat... In Inquisition we had An attack Our eight abilities (many of which included fairly basic/ ARPG staples like Dodging/ parrying/ an ultimate ability rather then them being their own thing) The Fade Touched Material option which could give you a chance of bringing another ability to combat should the player choose but this wasn't always universal. Total 10. In Veilguard. Light Attack Heavy Attack Ranged Attack (While based on everything we have seen and heard in the marketing to this point indicates these are all things I do suspect that the balance and how to utilize them will be different via each class, for example mages standard light and heavy attacks could be ranged attacks then they have their magic dagger option) Block/ Magical shield for mages Dodge 3 abilities 1 rune ability (which I suspect will be a variation of Inquisition's FTM) 1 ultimate ability Total...10. And this isn't even really touching on the indicated combos we have seen in the gameplay demo or the marketing. Turning 'basic attacks' into the abilities from Inquisition. WE just don't know how many of them there will be in the game or the process of getting them but as with other games in the genre or anciliary genres this could really drive up our active abilities and what we are able to access in combat. Again, they probably haven't removed them, just moved them. More like... 7 at most, no? Not counting basic attacks and runes/fade-touched stuff. In Inquisition, out of 8 slots, one always went to Fade Step (dodge/evade/roll... whatever for Warriors and Rogues), one for the Ultimate/Focus, and another for Barrier (on all mages. Warriors and Rogues would get Shield Wall / Stealth) - so really, I'd end up with 5 abilities, and still combat was incredibly fun, fluid and dynamic. It felt like enough. If what they're doing now is basically that: 3 free spells + a dodge (Veilguard's "Fade Step"), a magical shield (our "Barrier"), an ultimate... plus, a couple new things whether it's combos, a special ranged attack, a bomb... that doesn't sound too bad at all. Not to mention, Veilguard's looking like a highly customizable game, there's a good chance we'll be able to make these extras "our own", so to speak, changing elemental types, effects... so it's not one fixed thing (because, what if we hated and were stuck with that one thing?). The initial narrative of 3 abilities only, total, that was bullsh*t. I've played mobile games that offer more. So, we're supposed to be this elite force saving the world from old gods, and all I have is a Fire Blast, an Ice Blast, and Jump? Yeah, that would not work for me. But this ^: I can live with, if the case. For now, gotta say it's looking good.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 11, 2024 10:23:54 GMT
So as a thought experiment bit of curiosity wanna see if we can actually come up with the number of 'spells'/ attacks/ things you can do in combat... In Inquisition we had An attack Our eight abilities (many of which included fairly basic/ ARPG staples like Dodging/ parrying/ an ultimate ability rather then them being their own thing) The Fade Touched Material option which could give you a chance of bringing another ability to combat should the player choose but this wasn't always universal. Total 10. In Veilguard. Light Attack Heavy Attack Ranged Attack (While based on everything we have seen and heard in the marketing to this point indicates these are all things I do suspect that the balance and how to utilize them will be different via each class, for example mages standard light and heavy attacks could be ranged attacks then they have their magic dagger option) Block/ Magical shield for mages Dodge 3 abilities 1 rune ability (which I suspect will be a variation of Inquisition's FTM) 1 ultimate ability Total...10. And this isn't even really touching on the indicated combos we have seen in the gameplay demo or the marketing. Turning 'basic attacks' into the abilities from Inquisition. WE just don't know how many of them there will be in the game or the process of getting them but as with other games in the genre or anciliary genres this could really drive up our active abilities and what we are able to access in combat. Again, they probably haven't removed them, just moved them. More like... 7 at most, no? Not counting basic attacks and runes/fade-touched stuff. In Inquisition, out of 8 slots, one always went to Fade Step (dodge/evade/roll... whatever for Warriors and Rogues), one for the Ultimate/Focus, and another for Barrier (on all mages. Warriors and Rogues would get Shield Wall / Stealth) - so really, I'd end up with 5 abilities, and still combat was incredibly fun, fluid and dynamic. It felt like enough. If what they're doing now is basically that: 3 free spells + a dodge (Veilguard's "Fade Step"), a magical shield (our "Barrier"), an ultimate... plus, a couple new things whether it's combos, a special ranged attack, a bomb... that doesn't sound too bad at all. Not to mention, Veilguard's looking like a highly customizable game, there's a good chance we'll be able to make these extras "our own", so to speak, changing elemental types, effects... so it's not one fixed thing (because, what if we hated and were stuck with that one thing?). The initial narrative of 3 abilities only, total, that was bullsh*t. I've played mobile games that offer more. So, we're supposed to be this elite force saving the world from old gods, and all I have is a Fire Blast, an Ice Blast, and Jump? Yeah, that would not work for me. But this ^: I can live with, if the case. For now, gotta say it's looking good. Yeah pretty much my point. Like one of the arguments against the new system is having three abilities is going to get boring because its not going to have enough variety, but really if its the same button presses if not more? And you are right about the custimization, if as they have teased then the levelling up will greatly change our play styles then you could be right about the customization.
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Post by jennica on Aug 11, 2024 11:16:13 GMT
Yeah, Corinne Busche talked about it on twitter a bit.
That tweet sounds like spin to me. I'm not native English speaker, so just to clarify in case i misunderstood you. By "spin" do you mean she's lying? Because we already saw from gameplay reveal, that some rogue's abilities that used to be activated (like twin fangs, for example), now became part of rogue's core moveset. It makes sense that the same were done with mage's spells.
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Post by Frost on Aug 11, 2024 12:12:03 GMT
I didn’t mean she is lying about what is in the game. I mean she is trying to sell only having 3 abilities, which is a gutting of the spell-based mage class, as something that is good by including things such as weapon attacks in her list of spells. Mana shield also sounds like something designed for arcane warriors, which is fine if it is one of many spells you can pick but not if it takes one of a very few slots. I really dislike their decision to make all classes play the same because it means the spell-based mage was cut in favor of weapon-based combat. Arcane warrior is a hybrid class that is great to have as a choice, but it shouldn’t replace the core spell-based mage class.
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Post by jennica on Aug 11, 2024 12:35:11 GMT
I didn’t mean she is lying about what is in the game. I mean she is trying to sell only having 3 abilities, which is a gutting of the spell-based mage class, as something that is good by including things such as weapon attacks in her list of spells. Mana shield also sounds like something designed for arcane warriors, which is fine if it is one of many spells you can pick but not if it takes one of a very few slots. I really dislike their decision to make all classes play the same because it means the spell-based mage was cut in favor of weapon-based combat. Arcane warrior is a hybrid class that is great to have as a choice, but it shouldn’t replace the core spell-based mage class. I don't really see a difference between casting a spell by clicking an ability on ability bar and casting a spell by (presumably) using your staff. You still cast a spell in both cases.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Aug 11, 2024 12:48:39 GMT
I didn’t mean she is lying about what is in the game. I mean she is trying to sell only having 3 abilities, which is a gutting of the spell-based mage class, as something that is good by including things such as weapon attacks in her list of spells. Mana shield also sounds like something designed for arcane warriors, which is fine if it is one of many spells you can pick but not if it takes one of a very few slots. I really dislike their decision to make all classes play the same because it means the spell-based mage was cut in favor of weapon-based combat. Arcane warrior is a hybrid class that is great to have as a choice, but it shouldn’t replace the core spell-based mage class. I don't really see a difference between casting a spell by clicking an ability on ability bar and casting a spell by (presumably) using your staff. You still cast a spell in both cases. Yeah I'm not agains tth eidea of magic being on a bu8tto npress instea dof a ba rs olong a sth egam ein general feels goo dan daccessible. As I sai din anothe rpost I had m ydoubts about Andromeda's comba ta tfirst. In theend i tworked jus tfine though so m yhope is it'll be he same here
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Post by luketrevelyan on Aug 11, 2024 13:04:15 GMT
I didn’t mean she is lying about what is in the game. I mean she is trying to sell only having 3 abilities, which is a gutting of the spell-based mage class, as something that is good by including things such as weapon attacks in her list of spells. Mana shield also sounds like something designed for arcane warriors, which is fine if it is one of many spells you can pick but not if it takes one of a very few slots. I really dislike their decision to make all classes play the same because it means the spell-based mage was cut in favor of weapon-based combat. Arcane warrior is a hybrid class that is great to have as a choice, but it shouldn’t replace the core spell-based mage class. I don't really see a difference between casting a spell by clicking an ability on ability bar and casting a spell by (presumably) using your staff. You still cast a spell in both cases. It is different because you can only use the wheel abilities when paused not the ones mapped to buttons. Also a lot more is defined for you rather than letting you decide what abilities to use (unless we can customize what is mapped to the buttons). And something that is just mapped to a button doesn't feel special in the way it does if you have to select the ability. It feels like button mashing which personally I don't find rewarding as a player. So there is a mentality difference as well, which I think is important.
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Post by jennica on Aug 11, 2024 13:17:47 GMT
I don't really see a difference between casting a spell by clicking an ability on ability bar and casting a spell by (presumably) using your staff. You still cast a spell in both cases. It is different because you can only use the wheel abilities when paused not the ones mapped to buttons. Also a lot more is defined for you rather than letting you decide what abilities to use (unless we can customize what is mapped to the buttons). And something that is just mapped to a button doesn't feel special in the way it does if you have to select the ability. It feels like button mashing which personally I don't find rewarding as a player. So there is a mentality difference as well, which I think is important. I agree that it will feel different to play, for better or worse. My point was that based on info that we have it's still possible to play as spell based mage. It's not like everyone will be forced to play as Arcane Warrior now.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 12, 2024 1:30:07 GMT
I didn’t mean she is lying about what is in the game. I mean she is trying to sell only having 3 abilities, which is a gutting of the spell-based mage class, as something that is good by including things such as weapon attacks in her list of spells. Mana shield also sounds like something designed for arcane warriors, which is fine if it is one of many spells you can pick but not if it takes one of a very few slots. I really dislike their decision to make all classes play the same because it means the spell-based mage was cut in favor of weapon-based combat. Arcane warrior is a hybrid class that is great to have as a choice, but it shouldn’t replace the core spell-based mage class. On these points I have to firmly disagree on. Honestly felt that, maybe from the beginning but definitley for the last few games, that BioWare hasn't really done a good job distinguishing the class roles in combat. Generally they have their own assignments but I feel it all sort of tends to flow together to where there is little to distinguish the three classes. One of the reasons I did want them to go classless because if the distinction to the classes was largely meaningless, then why have them? But right now they seem to actually be including and diversifying the different classes that Rook can be and making more class distinctions between them. 1. Each class their own resource pool and ability to gain that resource. 2. Different ways of engaging with melee and ranged options. And 3. Various differences in the skill trees which point to more defined roles. AAs for weapon based combat like 90 percent of DAs combat has been weapon based to this point. In Origins you only had a few instances where the party was stripped of their weapons and had to use their fists or non staff based spells to succeed, but again emphasize this was incredibly rare and not a feature. Then in Inquisition Warriors could use their voices to taunt and get the enemy's attention but really couldn't do anything else. Meanwhile mages were on their staffs the entire time to cast spells be they the basic attack spells or the more complex abilities. Given this as well it really does not matter how we gain access to the abilities, whether its one button press on the quick bar, or a combination of R 1/ R 2 attacks on a controller, or holding down a button for a charged attack, there is really little evidence at this point that spell based combat has been gutted. Just moved around.
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ewigDunkelheit
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Exalt the Dwarf Age!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by ewigDunkelheit on Aug 12, 2024 1:40:46 GMT
I was going to push ahead and commit to locking my Rook as a ranged mage, but, the more I keep thinking about it, I just can't.
A lot of people will be fine with the changes, but when I think about what I enjoy with mages, I know Rook won't be able to provide that experience. I like buffs, debuffs, healing, and crowd control. In a party-based game, I like to be able to play a mage that does little to no damage outside of basic attacks. So, while healing is back, and I could probably pick two more spells to my fancy, I would still be stuck with: Bolts, Elemental Bomb, Magical Blasts, Mana Beam, Mana Shield, and Orb Toss. Outside of maybe the shield, I would never willingly pick these for my spells in any other game.
I am going to go back and change my Inquisitor into a mage instead. With a couple of immersion-breaking cutscenes (I don't like mages picking up a sword during the Haven confrontation, or kicking the Harlequin during Wicked Eyes Wicked Hearts), I will have the Inquisitor swing a crafted Blade of Tidarion to help offset my objection. I don't want to use Knight Enchanter, so she will be a Rift Mage instead. Focusing her in the Spirit school will keep me to only two damaging spells: Stonefist and Mark of the Rift.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 12, 2024 4:23:20 GMT
I was going to push ahead and commit to locking my Rook as a ranged mage, but, the more I keep thinking about it, I just can't. A lot of people will be fine with the changes, but when I think about what I enjoy with mages, I know Rook won't be able to provide that experience. I like buffs, debuffs, healing, and crowd control. In a party-based game, I like to be able to play a mage that does little to no damage outside of basic attacks. So, while healing is back, and I could probably pick two more spells to my fancy, I would still be stuck with: Bolts, Elemental Bomb, Magical Blasts, Mana Beam, Mana Shield, and Orb Toss. Outside of maybe the shield, I would never willingly pick these for my spells in any other game. I am going to go back and change my Inquisitor into a mage instead. With a couple of immersion-breaking cutscenes (I don't like mages picking up a sword during the Haven confrontation, or kicking the Harlequin during Wicked Eyes Wicked Hearts), I will have the Inquisitor swing a crafted Blade of Tidarion to help offset my objection. I don't want to use Knight Enchanter, so she will be a Rift Mage instead. Focusing her in the Spirit school will keep me to only two damaging spells: Stonefist and Mark of the Rift. I do get the fear that this game will be more melee focussed then ranged but we really don't know the spells we'll have access to or how that'll happen. We have had teases and some incomplete lists. As you mentioned healing magic is 'back', and in another post Corinne mentioned...or maybe it was during the GI article...that there was a gravity spell that pulled enemies together setting them up for a combo attack with Rook. That sounds like crowd control to me. And while we might lose some buffs and debuffs I would be surprised if we've lost access to them entirely.
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Post by fairdragon on Aug 12, 2024 6:44:51 GMT
I would never willingly pick these for my spells in any other game. I understanbd where you coming from and this is the only down grade i can see in this new gameplay. That some spells are selected for you.
spell-based mage was cut in favor of weapon-based combat I do get the fear that this game will be more melee focussed then ranged I don't think so. I believe it was in a QA where corrine said we can pick range or melee combat. And as long as i haven't seen Mage combat, i will believe that range is the normal Spell-based mage and melee is a hybrid of melee and spells.
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