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Post by sageoflife on Jul 12, 2024 23:06:29 GMT
I don't really mind, because I also found there to be a ton of dissonance when playing as a blood mage. The idea that characters like Alistair, Wynne, Anders, Fenris seemingly wouldn't care about you being a blood mage rather defies belief. Stabbing myself on the streets of Kirkwall and no one batting an eye always felt super weird, at least with Merrill other companions acknowledge it. That said, I am a touch confused about what they're trying to say with Merrill's arc. I always read it as her having the correct attitude overall toward blood magic, and it's Marethari's pride that dooms her. Either they're walking that back or it's just incredibly muddled now. As I always understood it, Merrill and Marethari are equally responsible for how things ended. Merrill has a serious pride problem of her own, it just shows itself in an unusual way.
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Post by necrowaif on Jul 12, 2024 23:07:45 GMT
To be clear, the narrative was always heroic, even in Origins. You go on a quest to stop the Blight, which qualifies as a grand scale conflict. You just can also be an unhinged serial killer as well, if you want. Fair enough. I suppose I should have said BioWare is only interested in telling a “conventionally heroic” narrative, as in a hero who is only invested in doing good.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by illuminated11 on Jul 12, 2024 23:10:48 GMT
I know that this is off topic, but i hear people say it from time to time and don't understand what people mean by it. How did they sanitize the Qun? They completely misunderstand the Aqun-Athlok and how they relate to the Qun as a whole. Disagree. Retcon or no, it's an interesting take on gender roles that makes sense with how their society is constructed, and no less potential to be horrific. Krem simply passes as a man and is interested in a role considered 'male'--if he wanted to be a baker instead, he would be consistently misgendered.
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Post by sageoflife on Jul 12, 2024 23:12:00 GMT
They completely misunderstand the Aqun-Athlok and how they relate to the Qun as a whole. Disagree. Retcon or no, it's an interesting take on gender roles that makes sense with how their society is constructed, and no less potential to be horrific. Krem simply passes as a man and is interested in a role considered 'male'--if he wanted to be a baker instead, he would be consistently misgendered.
Yes, that's the part that detractors misunderstand.
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illuminated11
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by illuminated11 on Jul 12, 2024 23:16:11 GMT
Disagree. Retcon or no, it's an interesting take on gender roles that makes sense with how their society is constructed, and no less potential to be horrific. Krem simply passes as a man and is interested in a role considered 'male'--if he wanted to be a baker instead, he would be consistently misgendered.
Yes, that's the part that detractors misunderstand. Ah, I misunderstood your post. My bad. Yes, agreed.
And hmm, interesting point about Merrill. Solas does mention that blood magic shouldn't become a crutch, or a passion, and that definitely applies to her. I'm going to pay close attention to her personal story line when I get to II, for sure.
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Post by sageoflife on Jul 12, 2024 23:22:27 GMT
Yes, that's the part that detractors misunderstand. Ah, I misunderstood your post. My bad. Yes, agreed.
And hmm, interesting point about Merrill. Solas does mention that blood magic shouldn't become a crutch, or a passion, and that definitely applies to her. I'm going to pay close attention to her personal story line when I get to II, for sure.
Even back in Origins there were already signs of Merrill's fatal flaw. She knows nothing of Mahariel's illness, and yet she feels confident to say that it's nothing she needs to worry about. Then it turns out that it's far more serious than she thought. If you're interested, the character page on TV Tropes describes how Merrill deconstructions the whole idea of Bad Powers, Good People.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 13, 2024 0:06:21 GMT
I don't really mind, because I also found there to be a ton of dissonance when playing as a blood mage. The idea that characters like Alistair, Wynne, Anders, Fenris seemingly wouldn't care about you being a blood mage rather defies belief. Stabbing myself on the streets of Kirkwall and no one batting an eye always felt super weird, at least with Merrill other companions acknowledge it. That said, I am a touch confused about what they're trying to say with Merrill's arc. I always read it as her having the correct attitude overall toward blood magic, and it's Marethari's pride that dooms her. Either they're walking that back or it's just incredibly muddled now. As I always understood it, Merrill and Marethari are equally responsible for how things ended. Merrill has a serious pride problem of her own, it just shows itself in an unusual way. She has the big head problem. She thinks she can control whatever yet how many others before her said the same that ended up doing stupid crap because of blood magic?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 13, 2024 0:23:47 GMT
As I always understood it, Merrill and Marethari are equally responsible for how things ended. Merrill has a serious pride problem of her own, it just shows itself in an unusual way. She has the big head problem. She thinks she can control whatever yet how many others before her said the same that ended up doing stupid crap because of blood magic? And yet she was right. Every problem that occurred wasn’t because of her, but because people thought she was wrong.
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Post by sageoflife on Jul 13, 2024 0:28:01 GMT
She has the big head problem. She thinks she can control whatever yet how many others before her said the same that ended up doing stupid crap because of blood magic? And yet she was right. Every problem that occurred wasn’t because of her, but because people thought she was wrong. And they had a very good reason to think she was wrong. Blood magic has the reputation it does for a reason, and people aren't going to ignore that just because Merrill says that she's different, no matter how many times she acts surprised by this.
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"Abso-fraggin-lutely!" ~ Captain John Sheridan and Satai Delenn
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jul 13, 2024 0:30:04 GMT
It makes sense to me to avoid the protagonist using powers that would likely result in all your allies turning on you or even trying to kill you like sacrificing people and mind control. That would derail the plot too much, or else cause a narrative disconnect if no one reacts.
But it seems like a shame to rule out the possibility of any future game allowing the pc to use their blood to power their magic or purge diseases like with the griffon eggs and getting to have npcs/companions actually react to that and have arguments about it similar to what Merrill got.
And it seems weird to rule it out when the writer's and the characters in the game are both describing it as neutral/depends on how you use it.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 13, 2024 0:59:38 GMT
She has the big head problem. She thinks she can control whatever yet how many others before her said the same that ended up doing stupid crap because of blood magic? And yet she was right. Every problem that occurred wasn’t because of her, but because people thought she was wrong. And had she not made a deal with a demon, things likely would not have happened the way they did.
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Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by githcheater on Jul 13, 2024 1:28:55 GMT
Been a long time since I've actually been pissed off. EVEN in future games? ![:banghead:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/thVpR0PuuvogT0QLwVUG.gif) A blood mage saved the Griffons! Merrill was a blood mage! My Mage Warden only ever used her own blood! And even if I did use my enemy's blood I was literally slaughtering them anyway! Only ethical murders for the greater good for you. "Ethical" Murders for "GOODNESS"
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N5
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
ShinobiKillfist
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Post by ahglock on Jul 13, 2024 1:52:22 GMT
Sounds reasonable. Probably a bit of a dovetail with the other conversation but the issue is what people use it for but what others can use it for. It's a reasonable standard because if you open it up then people will want to do really evil things for the sake of their evil playthroughs whether or not it makes sense. This. This right here is what I see way too often in my actual gaming groups that I run. People wanting to use things like Necromancy and "Blood Magic" type powers/abilities, not to help the party, but to just further their own power and personal gain. And yes, 95% of those characters I've seen are evil. Not even non-good neutral, just pure, 100%, unabashed, unapologetic evil. One of those players never played past Origins because Blood Magic became "demonized" according to him. So, he just simply ends at Origins. Do I think it's wrong to remove the option? Yes, because it's still just a game and people like to rp evil characters. But I have witnessed the example listed here far too often in my GM career. I personally don't care for it, but I'm not going to stand here and say no one should be allowed to take it. That's just silly to say things like that. And as was said above, probably from a mechanics standpoint, they couldn't balance it properly, so it was just easier to eliminate it all together. Lore-wise, they're moving away from "villain-who-does-good-despite-everything" and going towards a more "heroic" style character, since Blood Magic has become so much more powerful in the lore since Origins. They sort of did this already in a way with Mass Effect by getting rid of Paragon/Renegade, but that's just my observation. Other people may see it differently. Sure, but table top games are group games so doing the evil trope disrupts the fun of the others at the table. This is a single player game, you are only wrecking imaginary NPCs days.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
Posts: 2,876 Likes: 3,509
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on Jul 13, 2024 1:57:02 GMT
I don't really care about blood magic in particular as I never played a blood mage in the games. It seemed not particularly better than any other mage spec and it did not make much sense why my character would be different than every other blood magic example. But the core idea behind it raises concerns for the amount of role playing flexibility that will be allowed in this game and future games.
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Post by necrowaif on Jul 13, 2024 2:18:11 GMT
Ideally, I think blood magic should have been an all-in kind of deal, as in BioWare creates a narrative where the protagonist is a blood mage and has to decide how far to take it. Are you just using your own blood for power, or are you going to cross the line into mind control, demon-summoning and sacrificial murder? And what if that’s the only way to achieve certain “good” outcomes?
It’d be kind of like that game Vampyr, where you have to decide between drinking the blood of the people you know and getting stronger or go without.
But of course, that would also mean eliminating the ability to play certain races and classes, and BioWare would have to be willing to tell a morally ambiguous narrative. Which, as I pointed out earlier, they no longer wish to do.
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Guardian
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Guardian on Jul 13, 2024 2:50:32 GMT
They already sanitized the Qun to an extent I know that this is off topic, but i hear people say it from time to time and don't understand what people mean by it. How did they sanitize the Qun? I just realized I wrote "Sanitized" and meant "Satanized" (it has not been a good day). I just look at it as the fact that we had Sten and the Arishok, who gave us the view of the Qun as a pretty set caste system (similar to the dwarves), but after the last two (Bull and the "Qunari" from the animated DA series, I forget her name), it just seems to show that BioWare wants to try and paint the Qun as some "evil force" like Tevinter. Where I see the Crows as evil (they're an assassin guild....), I viewed the Qun as something that was their way of life. Oppressive, to be sure, yes. Do I agree with it? No, but if people find purpose in it, then does that make it evil? Perhaps to some, sure.
Another issue I do have is how we're never really allowed to argue our disagreements with Bull (or even Tallis). They just shut it down pretty much by saying, "Nope, it's not as bad as you think. You just don't get it."
If people that use it are doing so because they're "confused" about how Aqun-Athlok works and their relation to the Qun, then they're either really dense, or just willfully ignorant.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jul 13, 2024 2:53:54 GMT
And yet she was right. Every problem that occurred wasn’t because of her, but because people thought she was wrong. And they had a very good reason to think she was wrong. Blood magic has the reputation it does for a reason, and people aren't going to ignore that just because Merrill says that she's different, no matter how many times she acts surprised by this. ![:lol:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/qUctXNjCPgwPaLsZeKry.png) Yeah, the "I alone can handle this corrupting power" bit does not have a great track record.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jul 13, 2024 2:59:22 GMT
I agree with them. Never used or like Blood Magic, anyway. In 2024, a protagonist who cuts themselves up, or others (or kills others) for power, sends all kinds of troubling messages. Comparing nudity or seksual content to that is… a choice. Not the same thing, in the slightest. Blood Magic isn’t even “adult”. Maybe once upon a time it was considered dark and cool, now It’s just plain wrong. It shouldn’t be difficult to understand why. Makes for a good villain and potentially interesting stories, tho. Watch DA: Absolution. *That’s* a blood mage. Plus, I think they brought Necromancy in as a Spec at the same time Blood Magic for the PC went away, I consider it a very appropriate replacement, for like “dark” magic vibes or whatever. I’ve no problem with their decision, that’s exactly where Blood Magic needs to stay, as far as I’m concerned. #UnpopularOpinion I'm of two minds. Like you - never used Blood Magic except once in my evil mage Warden run. And even then it was just, take the spec for the passive and leave it at that. I get the point they're making and won't miss Blood Magic being available to my mage characters/companions. Having said that, there is a path forward with it that has possibilities. You gather your crew, everything is great. Then you start using blood magic. The companions all nope the fuck out, and you get the massive power boost...and demons come knocking. Players want the "choice to be evil"? Great. Let them see what that means. You're followed by faceless, voiceless demons instead of companions who have no personal quests, and can't be dismissed. They have no conversations with you, but banter out in the world is weird as fuck and almost inaudible. Whispers on the edge of your awareness. Probably a nightmare for scope, but removing all conversations and quests and not adding in new ones might help. It won't happen, but it'd be interesting.
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illuminated11
N3
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 316 Likes: 777
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Post by illuminated11 on Jul 13, 2024 3:27:41 GMT
I don't really care about blood magic in particular as I never played a blood mage in the games. It seemed not particularly better than any other mage spec and it did not make much sense why my character would be different than every other blood magic example. But the core idea behind it raises concerns for the amount of role playing flexibility that will be allowed in this game and future games. I agree in the sense that necromancy is just as much a gray area, since it involves binding spirits, and is technically considered a form of blood magic, even if it’s not stigmatized in the same way. (Because spirits aren’t considered ‘people’… but they absolutely are.) So that justification does strike me as strange, and worries me that the potential for roleplay and debate with Solas if you take that specialization will ultimately be severely limited.
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"A person of any mental quality has ideas of his own. This is common sense." Franz Liszt
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on Jul 13, 2024 3:40:45 GMT
I'm not sure why people automatically assume that all your companions would just up and leave you, in Tevinter no less. No one abandoned your party just because Merrill was in it, most even fostered good friendships with her. They could've made it so some companions would leave, some you'd have to convince and others not care at all. Tevinter was an excellent opportunity to explore this, make some interesting quests where a Demon can easily fool you and have it lead to a bad outcome, maybe a Demon disguised as a companion as a real mind trip on the player. Idk, there are so many cool places they could've gone in this setting with blood magic for extra story flavor, it sucks to see it dropped completely. I could understand not having it for the Herald of Andraste, but for some shadowy nobody in Tevinter? Seems like a missed opportunity imo.
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Post by necrowaif on Jul 13, 2024 5:14:52 GMT
Now that I think about it, I’m a little mystified as to why the assassin specialization is no longer available for the PC, and yet we can apparently be affiliated with the Antivan Crows, Thedas’ most famed assassins.
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Post by sageoflife on Jul 13, 2024 5:28:49 GMT
I'm not sure why people automatically assume that all your companions would just up and leave you, in Tevinter no less. No one abandoned your party just because Merrill was in it, most even fostered good friendships with her. They could've made it so some companions would leave, some you'd have to convince and others not care at all. Tevinter was an excellent opportunity to explore this, make some interesting quests where a Demon can easily fool you and have it lead to a bad outcome, maybe a Demon disguised as a companion as a real mind trip on the player. Idk, there are so many cool places they could've gone in this setting with blood magic for extra story flavor, it sucks to see it dropped completely. I could understand not having it for the Herald of Andraste, but for some shadowy nobody in Tevinter? Seems like a missed opportunity imo. That's a lot of variables for just one specialization out of nine.
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"Abso-fraggin-lutely!" ~ Captain John Sheridan and Satai Delenn
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jul 13, 2024 5:29:19 GMT
Now that I think about it, I’m a little mystified as to why the assassin specialization is no longer available for the PC, and yet we can apparently be affiliated with the Antivan Crows, Thedas’ most famed assassins. Maybe the meat of the assassin got incorporated into the base rogue class?
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mattjamho
N2
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by mattjamho on Jul 13, 2024 5:36:31 GMT
I’d have thought proper story implementation and world reactivity would have been the bigger argument for it not returning. In DAO & DA2 your protag can use blood magic in front of companions and NPCs, and it’s never commented on. Which is bizarre considering you’re using the most feared and vilified powers in that world. So if it was to come back, they should implement it properly in game, which obviously would take many more resources than other specs to do it properly. I do think it could have some very cool gameplay and story mechanics behind it. That said, it’s interesting that using your own blood to power your spells would be terrible, but we can burn our enemies alive with flaming meteors?
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"A person of any mental quality has ideas of his own. This is common sense." Franz Liszt
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onecrazymonkey1
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on Jul 13, 2024 6:28:31 GMT
I'm not sure why people automatically assume that all your companions would just up and leave you, in Tevinter no less. No one abandoned your party just because Merrill was in it, most even fostered good friendships with her. They could've made it so some companions would leave, some you'd have to convince and others not care at all. Tevinter was an excellent opportunity to explore this, make some interesting quests where a Demon can easily fool you and have it lead to a bad outcome, maybe a Demon disguised as a companion as a real mind trip on the player. Idk, there are so many cool places they could've gone in this setting with blood magic for extra story flavor, it sucks to see it dropped completely. I could understand not having it for the Herald of Andraste, but for some shadowy nobody in Tevinter? Seems like a missed opportunity imo. That's a lot of variables for just one specialization out of nine. I personally don't think companions leaving or staying based on a single choice would be that much, it's pretty basic with most RPGs these days, including Bioware. Alistair will leave if you spare Logaine, Morrigan can leave, Bull can betray you in trespasser, you can talk Wrex down or kill him, you even have companions that won't leave you if you sell Fenris off etc. Makes no difference to me if something is tied to a single specialization, just adds replay ability imo. The demon quest idea was if Bioware wanted to get fancy, and maybe another way would've been to tie the specialization to a particular Origin. I simply would've liked to play as a blood mage even without a lot of extra content, and this would've been one of the best settings to use it, but hey, it upsets some people now. Honestly though, I don't think my character is any better/good when they slam an ice shard through someone's face.
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