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Post by colfoley on Jul 13, 2024 19:28:51 GMT
Not sure how to post tweets but Patrick Weekes just posted an addition to this whole conversation which was shared in Schmooples. Much better way of putting it and leaves the door open for the future.
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Post by Phantom on Jul 13, 2024 19:45:00 GMT
I am slightly annoyed with this. I am for all for more options for roleplaying purposes. So I am for the options for Blood Mages, Templars, Assassins, Reavers and other specializations for Player Characters and their companions as options.
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Post by Little Bengel on Jul 13, 2024 20:22:25 GMT
The thing about blood magic is, it was already fumbled in a pretty big way in the roleplaying department in both games where it was an option.
In Origins, the only acknowledgment we get regarding the use of blood magic will either be a line from Uldred in the Tower, or when discussing the Dark Ritual with Morrigan. Yeah, sure, there's the cut interaction with Wynne, Irving and Greagoir at the end of that quest, but that requires modding to implement into the game, and if I'm being honest, it's really not enough, especially not for a game regarded in the same way Origins is.
2's case is more understandable, given the development time it had, but I have to get into that one too, because a game where blood magic is a central part of the story and setting should have arguably more impactful reactions if you spec into that, especially in a game where you have Anders and Fenris in particular as companions.
Honestly, I can't really say that the door is closed for Blood Mage as a spec for potential future games, but within the circumstances of both past games and what I've seen of the supplementary materials so far, I can't say I'm that torn over the absence of the damn thing either, as far as this game is concerned.
As far as the other specs mentioned in this thread go... some of them seem like baffling absences, some of them are understandable, and others just have me looking at the list of specs for Veilguard and thinking, "yeah I'm just gonna wait to see the actual contents before deciding how I feel about them". I will note that the Slayer spec was referred to as "Berserker" by the ResetEra playtester, who correctly stated way back then that the specs would be tied to factions, and that there'd be a tanky GW spec and a MW spec named "Reaper".
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Post by Walter Black on Jul 13, 2024 21:27:20 GMT
I'm not sure why people automatically assume that all your companions would just up and leave you, in Tevinter no less. No one abandoned your party just because Merrill was in it, most even fostered good friendships with her. They could've made it so some companions would leave, some you'd have to convince and others not care at all. Tevinter was an excellent opportunity to explore this, make some interesting quests where a Demon can easily fool you and have it lead to a bad outcome, maybe a Demon disguised as a companion as a real mind trip on the player. Idk, there are so many cool places they could've gone in this setting with blood magic for extra story flavor, it sucks to see it dropped completely. I could understand not having it for the Herald of Andraste, but for some shadowy nobody in Tevinter? Seems like a missed opportunity imo. That's a lot of variables for just one specialization out of nine. Owlcat did it in Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous; the Mythic Path for Lich had unique undead Companions, and the Swarm could create clones of itself. They did a major update for the Devil path, so I can't comment on it yet. Basically, with a little work, it can be done.
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Post by phoray on Jul 13, 2024 22:33:11 GMT
Not sure how to post tweets but Patrick Weekes just posted an addition to this whole conversation which was shared in Schmooples. Much better way of putting it and leaves the door open for the future. Are you talking about psycho0445.bsky.social @psycho0445.bsky.socialDo you think we will ever turn back to being allowed to do nasty stuff again? What I always loved about Dragon Age Origins and 2 was that you were able to roleplay a complete asshole antihero. The good guy hero is such an overused trope imo. Trick Weekes @trickweekes.bsky.social"Hero who is not a 'complete asshole antihero'" is not a single trope. We give you different ways to play Rook in Veilguard. But stuff we've set up as corrupting -- red lyrium, blood magic -- is mostly reserved for the villains this time for clear storytelling. Might be different in future games. Because that sounds like doubling down, not clarifying. Keeping the bad guy stuff bad and the good guy stuff good. Here's that line. I mean, I made the realization that some of the name choices they've gone with were for the newbie idiot players who don't know lore. But this is taking simplicity down to the toddler level.
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Post by Kyros on Jul 13, 2024 22:53:15 GMT
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Post by Walter Black on Jul 13, 2024 22:58:39 GMT
Your name is ironically fit for this discussion...
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Post by Ice-Quinn on Jul 13, 2024 23:04:44 GMT
I get the feeling that Patrick’s use of the word “hero” as it relates to blood magic, may have upset people more than the spec itself not being available… 🧐
Me, never been too keen on self-mutilation (call me crazy). But I mean, live and let live, let the blood mages eat brioche... 🤷♀️
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Post by phoray on Jul 13, 2024 23:14:55 GMT
When they explained Rook couldn't be a blood mage because they needed them to be able to have Video Calls with Solas' in the Fade, I was disappointed but I got it This bullshit about it being for the bad guys only is what drives me up the wall gervaise21 she used blood magic once to help the Griffons otherwise doomed to die from the taint to not die from the taint. But she didn't know how to use it correctly. And then she made up for that mistake later with her life. But no where along the way was she like, Mwuhahahaha blood magic like that asshole in Absolution. And to be clear, we all knew that egotistical narc was only talking up ethics to get in that Templar woman's pants and not actually opposed, he was nuts
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Post by Phantom on Jul 14, 2024 0:02:49 GMT
Well Evil vs Evil is a valid trope and Evil vs Oblivion is another trope should be considered. Just because the protagonist is an evil person it doesn't mean that they would side the Big Bad.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 14, 2024 0:04:19 GMT
Not sure how to post tweets but Patrick Weekes just posted an addition to this whole conversation which was shared in Schmooples. Much better way of putting it and leaves the door open for the future. Are you talking about psycho0445.bsky.social @psycho0445.bsky.socialDo you think we will ever turn back to being allowed to do nasty stuff again? What I always loved about Dragon Age Origins and 2 was that you were able to roleplay a complete asshole antihero. The good guy hero is such an overused trope imo. Trick Weekes @trickweekes.bsky.social"Hero who is not a 'complete asshole antihero'" is not a single trope. We give you different ways to play Rook in Veilguard. But stuff we've set up as corrupting -- red lyrium, blood magic -- is mostly reserved for the villains this time for clear storytelling. Might be different in future games. Because that sounds like doubling down, not clarifying. Keeping the bad guy stuff bad and the good guy stuff good. Here's that line. I mean, I made the realization that some of the name choices they've gone with were for the newbie idiot players who don't know lore. But this is taking simplicity down to the toddler level. So how can the choices of the names, I am assuming you mean the organizational names, be for newbie idiots, when the names in question require some familiarity with Dragon Age lore to understand their importance and their intrigue. The Veil Jumpers. What is the Veil? Are we talking about something for a wedding? Wedding crashers? That is what a newbie would probably think. Or something involving death? Shadow Dragons. OK...Dragons who hunt in the shadows...but they would know nothing of how important the name has to do with the Tevinter Imperium and the potential implications from that. The Lords of Fortune are a bit on the nose I guess, but then the Mourn Watch? And speaking of being on the nose you have always had the Grey Wardens which again are pretty much as straightforward as you can get. They just sound 'cool'. Meanwhile the game is still going to be rated M, we have seen that much established in the trailers so far, and the same amount of complexity DA has been known for, the same level of moral complexity, moral grayness, was exhibited in the trailer and the gameplay. So its absurd to think that this has been done in an effort to take the simplicity down to the level of a 'toddler'. Its more likely that they want to do it because the inclusion of such things tends to make things into a binary. The inclusion of blood magic and the evil decisions in Origins has been some of the examples of the least nuanced, least mature, elements of the series. It just enabled players to be evil for the sake of evil largely without consequence that was appropriate to what they were doing in the universe. There is a bit of a theme in the boards around here but the inclusion of blood magic does not prove anything about the game other then you can do blood magic...the existence of evil choices does not prove anything about the game then you can do evil choices...the existence of brothels don't prove anything about the game other then brothels exist. And the same goes on and on for any of these very specific. None of these things make a mature interesting game by itself. Letting the protagonist do these things don't make a mature interesting thing by itself. Its all the gestalt of the whole game, the whole experience, is what makes it interesting. If these things are done well, they can be interesting window dressing to think about and help paint the larger picture of a mature game...but when these things are done poorly, they became determents and distractions to those objections.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 14, 2024 0:16:15 GMT
Well Evil vs Evil is a valid trope and Evil vs Oblivion is another trope should be considered. Just because the protagonist is an evil person it doesn't mean that they would side the Big Bad. Look at Shepard. He/she can side with dumb dumb when choosing the green. I say that is about as evil as one can get.
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Post by Phantom on Jul 14, 2024 0:20:13 GMT
Well Evil vs Evil is a valid trope and Evil vs Oblivion is another trope should be considered. Just because the protagonist is an evil person it doesn't mean that they would side the Big Bad. Look at Shepard. He/she can side with dumb dumb when choosing the green. I say that is about as evil as one can get. It is a option a stupid option.
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Post by illuminated11 on Jul 14, 2024 1:46:49 GMT
I agree with Weekes. You don't need to be a blood mage to be an asshole. I'm also glad if this means we can't do things like equip red lyrium gear or runes, which always felt bizarre in Inquisition, given how dangerous it was supposed to be.
The point Gervaise made about blood mages being a vampire equivalent is interesting, because it might bring Dragon Age closer to its Buffy the Vampire Slayer inspiration, in having the classic 'corrupted shadow of humanity' enemies to fight. Darkspawn technically already are that, but they haven't been emphasized in that manner since Origins.
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Post by wickedcool on Jul 14, 2024 2:30:26 GMT
There was a drastic vision change from da2 on. These statements just make it clearer.
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Post by helios969 on Jul 14, 2024 2:47:32 GMT
It is a option a stupid option. Ooh, Ooh...can I use my PC's blood in a ritual and red lyrium to convert all life to be the same so we and the darkspawn can finally understand one another and eliminate conflict forever after.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 14, 2024 5:40:01 GMT
There was a drastic vision change from da2 on. These statements just make it clearer. I don't see it. Maybe we could say a vision change happened since DA O and this does seem to be obvious, a lot of the lore has been 'tightened' since Origins came out especially since Origins was more or less supposed to be a single game and since it was the first game and a lot of issues exist within Origins from a lore perspective, so they did change it... But this intepretation of Blood Magic is pretty consistent with what we got from 2. It may be used, theoretically, for value neutral positions but it is very hard to maintain that balance given how corruptible it is and how it opens one up to demonic influence and the ability to influence others and demons in turn. This was pretty much the whole point of DA 2.
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Post by smilesja on Jul 14, 2024 6:12:08 GMT
Are you talking about Because that sounds like doubling down, not clarifying. Keeping the bad guy stuff bad and the good guy stuff good. Here's that line. I mean, I made the realization that some of the name choices they've gone with were for the newbie idiot players who don't know lore. But this is taking simplicity down to the toddler level. So how can the choices of the names, I am assuming you mean the organizational names, be for newbie idiots, when the names in question require some familiarity with Dragon Age lore to understand their importance and their intrigue. The Veil Jumpers. What is the Veil? Are we talking about something for a wedding? Wedding crashers? That is what a newbie would probably think. Or something involving death? Shadow Dragons. OK...Dragons who hunt in the shadows...but they would know nothing of how important the name has to do with the Tevinter Imperium and the potential implications from that. The Lords of Fortune are a bit on the nose I guess, but then the Mourn Watch? And speaking of being on the nose you have always had the Grey Wardens which again are pretty much as straightforward as you can get. They just sound 'cool'. Meanwhile the game is still going to be rated M, we have seen that much established in the trailers so far, and the same amount of complexity DA has been known for, the same level of moral complexity, moral grayness, was exhibited in the trailer and the gameplay. So its absurd to think that this has been done in an effort to take the simplicity down to the level of a 'toddler'. Its more likely that they want to do it because the inclusion of such things tends to make things into a binary. The inclusion of blood magic and the evil decisions in Origins has been some of the examples of the least nuanced, least mature, elements of the series. It just enabled players to be evil for the sake of evil largely without consequence that was appropriate to what they were doing in the universe. There is a bit of a theme in the boards around here but the inclusion of blood magic does not prove anything about the game other then you can do blood magic...the existence of evil choices does not prove anything about the game then you can do evil choices...the existence of brothels don't prove anything about the game other then brothels exist. And the same goes on and on for any of these very specific. None of these things make a mature interesting game by itself. Letting the protagonist do these things don't make a mature interesting thing by itself. Its all the gestalt of the whole game, the whole experience, is what makes it interesting. If these things are done well, they can be interesting window dressing to think about and help paint the larger picture of a mature game...but when these things are done poorly, they became determents and distractions to those objections. Yeah, Dragon Age has always been mature despite their strange decisions like removing the healer class in Inquisition. I don't think it's going to be binary and besides, given what we know of our companions, being a blood mage is going to be a very hard sell.
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Jul 14, 2024 6:19:51 GMT
Another reason not to give the protagonist access to blood magic: no need to explain why they can't mind control anyone outside of combat, unlike every other blood mage we ever meet.
(In Merrill's case the anwer is easy - she simply would not do that - but it was always a bit odd that the Warden and Hawke were able to use it to force people to fight on their side in combat never to do anything useful in the story.)
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Post by colfoley on Jul 14, 2024 6:20:52 GMT
So how can the choices of the names, I am assuming you mean the organizational names, be for newbie idiots, when the names in question require some familiarity with Dragon Age lore to understand their importance and their intrigue. The Veil Jumpers. What is the Veil? Are we talking about something for a wedding? Wedding crashers? That is what a newbie would probably think. Or something involving death? Shadow Dragons. OK...Dragons who hunt in the shadows...but they would know nothing of how important the name has to do with the Tevinter Imperium and the potential implications from that. The Lords of Fortune are a bit on the nose I guess, but then the Mourn Watch? And speaking of being on the nose you have always had the Grey Wardens which again are pretty much as straightforward as you can get. They just sound 'cool'. Meanwhile the game is still going to be rated M, we have seen that much established in the trailers so far, and the same amount of complexity DA has been known for, the same level of moral complexity, moral grayness, was exhibited in the trailer and the gameplay. So its absurd to think that this has been done in an effort to take the simplicity down to the level of a 'toddler'. Its more likely that they want to do it because the inclusion of such things tends to make things into a binary. The inclusion of blood magic and the evil decisions in Origins has been some of the examples of the least nuanced, least mature, elements of the series. It just enabled players to be evil for the sake of evil largely without consequence that was appropriate to what they were doing in the universe. There is a bit of a theme in the boards around here but the inclusion of blood magic does not prove anything about the game other then you can do blood magic...the existence of evil choices does not prove anything about the game then you can do evil choices...the existence of brothels don't prove anything about the game other then brothels exist. And the same goes on and on for any of these very specific. None of these things make a mature interesting game by itself. Letting the protagonist do these things don't make a mature interesting thing by itself. Its all the gestalt of the whole game, the whole experience, is what makes it interesting. If these things are done well, they can be interesting window dressing to think about and help paint the larger picture of a mature game...but when these things are done poorly, they became determents and distractions to those objections. Yeah, Dragon Age has always been mature despite their strange decisions like removing the healer class in Inquisition. I don't think it's going to be binary and besides, given what we know of our companions, being a blood mage is going to be a very hard sell. When I read this my mind went in two seperate directions at the same time... But there is the binary of binary very black and white morality, but then there is also the fun little fact that Origins quest lines usually ended in more then one choice...yet Inquisition's usually just had 2 choices per every major story beat. But yet such decisions, I felt anyways, were handled with far more nuance and maturity then most of the decisions in Origins. And hell to prove the point to the best deicsion in DAO was both binary, choosing the King of Orzamaar and the fate of the Anvil.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 14, 2024 7:42:24 GMT
gervaise21 she used blood magic once to help the Griffons otherwise doomed to die from the taint to not die from the taint. But she didn't know how to use it correctly. And then she made up for that mistake later with her life. But no where along the way was she like, Mwuhahahaha blood magic like that asshole in Absolution. And to be clear, we all knew that egotistical narc was only talking up ethics to get in that Templar woman's pants and not actually opposed, he was nuts To be fair to Isseya, it was the First Warden who really messed things up because he was the one who decided if they could do it with one griffon, why not every griffon that was feeling the effects of prolonged combat against the darkspawn. I seem to recall it didn't just stop the taint spreading in that first griffon but also gave it renewed strength and aggression against darkspawn (which spectacularly backfired with some of the riders when the griffon dived into their massed ranks instead of keeping above them). However, as I explained, she was still making a "blind bargain" when she used blood magic to cleanse the chicks in their eggs, it is just on this occasion it was successful and, as far as we know, did not have a downside. Remember also that the way she got the original griffons to accept the Joining was by violating the sanctity of their mind, not through cleansing their body. I actually think Last Flight was reasonable in its depiction of blood magic because it is perfectly true that we don't know enough about exactly how it works (and the writers are likely still out on the issue). DAO implied that it involved doing deals with demons and, from what I recall, you could only learn it by doing a deal with the demon possessing Connor (I don't count the fact that you could later acquire a book allowing this). So, it did seem a bit dodgy to say the least, even if you didn't sacrifice the soul of a child to acquire the skill. I've already said that I can see why a Grey Warden could justify doing this to themselves. DA2 was where they really muddied the waters, firstly by allowing Merrill to be a blood mage, where from Hawke's comment it is still associated with doing deals with demons, as Merrill freely admits is the case, which carries its own risks with it. Then by allowing Hawke to take the spec, with no one commenting on this or even explaining how you gained the knowledge. I assume Merrill must have taught it to them because either doing a deal with a demon or being taught by an established blood mage do seem to be the only means of doing so. Blood magic does not draw its power from the Fade, so any experienced mage, like Anders for example, would be able to detect this. Justice most certainly would. However, I'll grant you the companions had a very peculiar attitude towards Hawke's more questionable acts. After all, not one of them, not even Sebastian, rejects them if they hand Fenris back to Denarius. Of course, there is an easy way out of this for the Devs as they can say it was just Varric as narrator glossing over any dissent in the ranks and, let's face it, he probably didn't actually tell Cassandra that Hawke was a blood mage. On balance, from what we have seen in game and from all the associated media, blood magic is depicted as something questionable to say the least, and feared by the majority of people with good reason because of what the mage can do with it as much as how the power is derived. There are things a blood mage can do that regular mages cannot and technically it is outlawed even in Tevinter, although of course most powerful mages there know how to do it even if they don't resort to it. Yes, it has occasionally been used for the benefit of others, such as when a Tevinter mage sacrificed herself in order to boil the blood in the veins of Qunari attacking the city of Marnas Pell, but at what ultimate price? It would seem the Veil was permanently damaged in that location. Which brings me onto Weakes' original explanation for why Rook couldn't be a blood mage and then why he appeared to change the reason from, it would interfere with their connection with Solas, to it not being appropriate to the hero of this story. The problem with blood magic is the writers have never really come up with a consistent reason for why it works or how it impacts on the Veil and contact with the Fade. If, as Solas suggested, it makes contact more difficult, why are blood mages said to be of increased danger to possession? Why does the spilling of blood in large amounts thin the Veil, even opening a way to the Fade altogether? Why is elf blood more potent than human blood in blood magic rituals when Corypheus maintained this was because of their connection to the Fade? So, I think the real reason they avoided letting their hero use blood magic is that it might have raised some awkward questions for which they don't have answers, particularly if it is the villains' use of blood magic that has adverse consequences in a plot narrative because people would naturally ask, then why not Rook?
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Post by illuminated11 on Jul 14, 2024 9:36:24 GMT
Yeah, Dragon Age has always been mature despite their strange decisions like removing the healer class in Inquisition. I don't think it's going to be binary and besides, given what we know of our companions, being a blood mage is going to be a very hard sell. When I read this my mind went in two seperate directions at the same time... But there is the binary of binary very black and white morality, but then there is also the fun little fact that Origins quest lines usually ended in more then one choice...yet Inquisition's usually just had 2 choices per every major story beat. But yet such decisions, I felt anyways, were handled with far more nuance and maturity then most of the decisions in Origins. And hell to prove the point to the best deicsion in DAO was both binary, choosing the King of Orzamaar and the fate of the Anvil. Are you suggesting that running off at Redcliffe to retrieve mages and return without any consequences or losses trivializes the decision? Surely you jest.
I would like to have more options than binaries, but I absolutely prefer to avoid third options being the obvious best solution. Actually, that was one thing I liked about the Gaspard-Celene-Briala choice, since even though it's harder to achieve than other outcomes, it's not clear cut better for Orlais in the long run.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 14, 2024 9:44:33 GMT
When I read this my mind went in two seperate directions at the same time... But there is the binary of binary very black and white morality, but then there is also the fun little fact that Origins quest lines usually ended in more then one choice...yet Inquisition's usually just had 2 choices per every major story beat. But yet such decisions, I felt anyways, were handled with far more nuance and maturity then most of the decisions in Origins. And hell to prove the point to the best deicsion in DAO was both binary, choosing the King of Orzamaar and the fate of the Anvil. Are you suggesting that running off at Redcliffe to retrieve mages and return without any consequences or losses trivializes the decision? Surely you jest.
I would like to have more options than binaries, but I absolutely would prefer to avoid third options being the obvious best solution. Actually, that was one thing I liked about the Gaspard-Celene-Briala choice, since even though it's harder to achieve than other outcomes, it's not clear cut better for Orlais in the long run.
honestly I'd argue it's probably the worse outcome.
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Post by Gileadan on Jul 14, 2024 9:49:02 GMT
Are you suggesting that running off at Redcliffe to retrieve mages and return without any consequences or losses trivializes the decision? Surely you jest.
I would like to have more options than binaries, but I absolutely would prefer to avoid third options being the obvious best solution. Actually, that was one thing I liked about the Gaspard-Celene-Briala choice, since even though it's harder to achieve than other outcomes, it's not clear cut better for Orlais in the long run.
honestly I'd argue it's probably the worse outcome. But it's the most fun one. "You're all terrible people so I'm going to make you spend more time together." *walks off into the distance laughing all the way back to Skyhold*
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Post by illuminated11 on Jul 14, 2024 9:50:02 GMT
honestly I'd argue it's probably the worse outcome. But it's the most fun one. "You're all terrible people so I'm going to make you spend more time together." *walks off into the distance laughing all the way back to Skyhold* Loghain greatly approves.
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