TheEmptyRoad
N2
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Honor is a fool's prize, glory is no use to the dead.
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Post by TheEmptyRoad on Jul 13, 2024 6:52:36 GMT
I really hope this no-more-blood-magic-you-have-to-be-a-HERO thing isn't an indication of squeamishness when it comes to factions like the Crows as others have mentioned; or the Grey Wardens. I really hope Davrin isn't just a Knight in Shining Armor. I don't want another Alistair or who Blackwall was pretending to be: I want a Loghain-Warden. Or a Riordan Warden. I hope my Warden can be a jaded veteran who does what needs doing, not some naive idiot who joined up to be a 'Hero'.
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ahglock
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Post by ahglock on Jul 13, 2024 7:03:42 GMT
I'm not sure why people automatically assume that all your companions would just up and leave you, in Tevinter no less. No one abandoned your party just because Merrill was in it, most even fostered good friendships with her. They could've made it so some companions would leave, some you'd have to convince and others not care at all. Tevinter was an excellent opportunity to explore this, make some interesting quests where a Demon can easily fool you and have it lead to a bad outcome, maybe a Demon disguised as a companion as a real mind trip on the player. Idk, there are so many cool places they could've gone in this setting with blood magic for extra story flavor, it sucks to see it dropped completely. I could understand not having it for the Herald of Andraste, but for some shadowy nobody in Tevinter? Seems like a missed opportunity imo. That's a lot of variables for just one specialization out of nine. Given that there are only 9 specializations I'd think all 9 should have that many variables. If they don't it reduces the desire to try new specs as they will all be the same in the story.
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helios969
N4
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Post by helios969 on Jul 13, 2024 7:08:50 GMT
It makes sense to me to avoid the protagonist using powers that would likely result in all your allies turning on you or even trying to kill you like sacrificing people and mind control. Meh, it's no worse than what happens in that brothel I hear so much about ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/uYQYVMAupPAfTXFFwWlB.png) ...or the Chantry's use of Templars for that matter. Sacrificing people can mean more than just murdering them for their blood. Indoctrinate them through addiction and/or ideology and use them for profit or to protect the faith can lead to a quick death....or a prolonged painfully slow one (which in some ways seems worse to me).
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Post by helios969 on Jul 13, 2024 7:15:34 GMT
One of most favorite playthroughs was as an aggressive Hawke who was a mage hating mage (it was a self-loathing thing) who used blood magic because they alone had the "wisdom" to use it properly for the greater good. It was unfortunate I was "forced" to kill Merrill when we purged the mages but the latter "had" to be done. The hypocrisy was absolutely delicious.
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Ice-Quinn
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Post by Ice-Quinn on Jul 13, 2024 8:03:16 GMT
I'm of two minds. Like you - never used Blood Magic except once in my evil mage Warden run. And even then it was just, take the spec for the passive and leave it at that. I get the point they're making and won't miss Blood Magic being available to my mage characters/companions. Having said that, there is a path forward with it that has possibilities. You gather your crew, everything is great. Then you start using blood magic. The companions all nope the fuck out, and you get the massive power boost...and demons come knocking. Players want the "choice to be evil"? Great. Let them see what that means. You're followed by faceless, voiceless demons instead of companions who have no personal quests, and can't be dismissed. They have no conversations with you, but banter out in the world is weird as fuck and almost inaudible. Whispers on the edge of your awareness. Probably a nightmare for scope, but removing all conversations and quests and not adding in new ones might help. It won't happen, but it'd be interesting. That would be interesting. Blood Magic for means of great storytelling, a character arc, player agency... I'm all for it. However, do we need a whole specialization for that? Because any mage can be tempted (to go down that road). Just like a Templar could get in trouble using lyrium, yet an addicted player character has not been an option in past games. And if the appeal is purely from a gameplay standpoint, I suppose (like Patrick said) healthy compromises could be made, happy mediums achieved - ex: say, a Healing spell where the caster sacrifices health instead of mana to heal a companion? Awesome. But do we need to see the PC slicing their wrists open, gushing blood everywhere, for that to be viable or roleplayed? I don't think so. 🤷♀️ To be clear: I don't really care if Blood Magic as a Spec makes a return. I probably just wouldn't use it, like in the previous games. But it's wild to me how is it not understandable that a company like Bioware would want to keep something like this, potentially so problematic, in it's current form - at arm's length, at least where the protagonist is concerned? To not be mindful of it... act with responsibility, even? I can already see the headlines. And to liken this to a pair of boobs, violence / killing in videogames, playing a murderous jerk... any of those things, it's just not an apt comparison. At all.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 13, 2024 8:26:47 GMT
A blood mage saved the Griffons! Only necessary because her use of blood magic caused the plague in the first place. As Calien said, blood magic is a "blind bargain" with unknown forces and unforeseen consequences. Probably why Solas initially didn't have a problem with it - it's just magic. However, he doesn't like necromancy because it is used to control the freedom of spirits and bind them to the mage's will, which does sound very similar to blood magic mind control on mortals. In fact, the Wardens did appear to be doing the same with blood magic binding the demons. So, may be even Solas had revised his opinion of it by the end of DAI. Their explanations might not be perfect but at the end of the day it made no sense in universe for the Warden and Hawke to be blood mages because it made an utter disconnect. I disagree with respect to the Wardens because they are known for doing what it takes to end the Blights, including blood magic. However, Hawke was weird because why would a blood mage stay in Kirkwall with all those Templars? Also, everyone noticed when Merrill did blood magic and those who objected said so, but they never had a problem Hawke? That did make for a rather obvious paradox in the narrative. My personal opinion is that I think it is good that there is at least one form of magic that is now confined to the villains only and which can give them an edge over the heroes. There is more of a challenge if you can't use it yourself. I did find it daft that the Venatori we confronted in DAI never used blood magic on us. We only ever encountered Spellbinders and I never really understood what superior abilities that granted them, since I found them easy enough to kill. In DAO and DA2 I was always wary of encountering blood mages and took them down as quickly as I could because they could do some serious damage to my party but in DAI I had no such worries. So, I welcome to opportunity to be confronted by full blown Venatori blood mages and know that without doubt they are the evil ones. So it's fine to forcibly control spirits with Necromancy, potentially damaging them irreparably, but not mortals? Thanks for the clarity. Exactly. It is not as though either our hero or our companions are going to totally avoid dodgy magical practices. I never understood how the Mortalitasi got away with it in the past but there you go. Ironically, it was necromancy that was considered bad in DA2 (both Quentin and Orsino use it for their horrific magic) but blood magic was okay. Then Dorian popped up as a good mage doing necromancy in DAI and blood magic completely disappeared except among the Wardens controlled by Erimond and Corypheus, even though the Venatori were from Tevinter so you would think there would be more of them. I have to admit the funniest thing in DA2 was that Glandivalis, the sword that Andraste gave to Shartan, had a 2% chance of mind controlling your enemy. That is a low possibility but still ironic considering who the sword it originally belonged to, Andraste's mother.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 13, 2024 8:39:42 GMT
The biggest problem for the writers would be having Rook use blood magic and our companions reaction to it. I'm pretty sure Neve would be utterly opposed and refuse to work with you. Probably Lucanis as well as he has witnessed the sort of horrors performed by blood magic. Would Harding be okay with it? I don't think so. That's three down straight away. Blood magic might interfere with Veil Jumping, so Bellara may object too. I'm not sure with Davrin. He's a Grey Warden but in Last Flight they did seem to be researching past use of blood magic in the Wardens. I don't know whether that was because the First Warden wanted to do so in the future or was trying to guard against it (perhaps having some intimation about what had happened in the south, even though Weisshaupt seemed to be claiming ignorance). If Davrin knows what happened with the griffons it is possible he would object on that basis alone.
So, that would just leave Emmrich (who can hardly be picky considering what he does), and Taash (uncertain). Best just not have Rook use it at all.
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illuminated11
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Post by illuminated11 on Jul 13, 2024 9:12:57 GMT
A blood mage saved the Griffons! Only necessary because her use of blood magic caused the plague in the first place. As Calien said, blood magic is a "blind bargain" with unknown forces and unforeseen consequences. Probably why Solas initially didn't have a problem with it - it's just magic. However, he doesn't like necromancy because it is used to control the freedom of spirits and bind them to the mage's will, which does sound very similar to blood magic mind control on mortals. In fact, the Wardens did appear to be doing the same with blood magic binding the demons. So, may be even Solas had revised his opinion of it by the end of DAI. Their explanations might not be perfect but at the end of the day it made no sense in universe for the Warden and Hawke to be blood mages because it made an utter disconnect. I disagree with respect to the Wardens because they are known for doing what it takes to end the Blights, including blood magic. However, Hawke was weird because why would a blood mage stay in Kirkwall with all those Templars? Also, everyone noticed when Merrill did blood magic and those who objected said so, but they never had a problem Hawke? That did make for a rather obvious paradox in the narrative. My personal opinion is that I think it is good that there is at least one form of magic that is now confined to the villains only and which can give them an edge over the heroes. There is more of a challenge if you can't use it yourself. I did find it daft that the Venatori we confronted in DAI never used blood magic on us. We only ever encountered Spellbinders and I never really understood what superior abilities that granted them, since I found them easy enough to kill. In DAO and DA2 I was always wary of encountering blood mages and took them down as quickly as I could because they could do some serious damage to my party but in DAI I had no such worries. So, I welcome to opportunity to be confronted by full blown Venatori blood mages and know that without doubt they are the evil ones. So it's fine to forcibly control spirits with Necromancy, potentially damaging them irreparably, but not mortals? Thanks for the clarity. Exactly. It is not as though either our hero or our companions are going to totally avoid dodgy magical practices. I never understood how the Mortalitasi got away with it in the past but there you go. Ironically, it was necromancy that was considered bad in DA2 (both Quentin and Orsino use it for their horrific magic) but blood magic was okay. Then Dorian popped up as a good mage doing necromancy in DAI and blood magic completely disappeared except among the Wardens controlled by Erimond and Corypheus, even though the Venatori were from Tevinter so you would think there would be more of them. I have to admit the funniest thing in DA2 was that Glandivalis, the sword that Andraste gave to Shartan, had a 2% chance of mind controlling your enemy. That is a low possibility but still ironic considering who the sword it originally belonged to, Andraste's mother. I will be disappointed if necromancy isn’t a morally ambiguous option. Given in Dreadwolf Take You, they make a point to mention Solas freeing the bound spirit, I’m optimistic it will be explored at least a little. If they want to restrict blood magic to enemies, I’m fine with it as well. To use an analogy, it would be like participating in the meat packaging industry vs being a cannibal. Both are ethically dubious at best, but only one straight up violates social mores. I suspect lack of blood mages in Inquisition was rooted in lack of familiarity with frostbite engine. Most enemies had the same kits available to them as the characters, after all. Now that they’ve had a decade to learn their engine, that won’t be an issue. Hopefully.
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helios969
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Post by helios969 on Jul 13, 2024 9:50:56 GMT
The biggest problem for the writers would be having Rook use blood magic and our companions reaction to it. I don't agree. Simply because of the stakes...which are either the complete annihilation of Thedas and its peoples or a revival of the "old ways" by the two that are released (incidently I'd love to see a cutscene of the subjugated receiving their vallaslin in this scenario). Rook can simply state that the use of any tactic is acceptable if that keeps either of the above from coming to pass. I'd actually prefer if some companions couldn't be persuaded and left as that would be authentic and actual consequence to actions. To me that's superior writing. Hell if the writer(s) of House of Dragons can make so many morally abhorrent practices into good storytelling and characters somehow likeable I'm fairly certain blood magic could be made to work in DAV. I thinks it's more the writers don't know how...or it's resource thing that requires expansion of cutscenes or whatever...or both.
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Post by Reznore on Jul 13, 2024 10:27:15 GMT
Weekes is writing Tash a lord of Fortune who hunts dragons. She is killing an endangered species for the glory and the bling. So she's the kind of hero we want around ?
I understand not wanting blood magic because you don't wanna waste story ressources on combat spe. But implying it's all about the moral high ground is silly.
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Post by The Pluto Lounge on Jul 13, 2024 10:27:26 GMT
I'm not too bothered as I never used it in any playthrough, but I feel bad for the people that enjoyed that style. Especially those that do a lot of head cannon for their stories using blood magic and anticipated using it in a Tevinter setting.
It is concerning that they decided to force their own ethics on everyone else. Especially in the Dragon Age series that typically has a lot of replayability so people can try different paths, among other things.
They also say that this is a companion driven game and the use of blood magic could spark some very interesting discussions/debates with the companions. However, it is what it is.
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cuthbertbeckett
N4
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Jul 13, 2024 10:51:23 GMT
I really hope Davrin isn't just a Knight in Shining Armor. I don't want another Alistair or who Blackwall was pretending to be: I want a Loghain-Warden. Or a Riordan Warden. I hope my Warden can be a jaded veteran who does what needs doing, not some naive idiot who joined up to be a 'Hero'. I fear that Davrin is just one. Sure he is nice and has a cute griffon but not all companions can´t be heroic because it would be boring. I assume that they will never do a character like Sten who killed a farmer family because he lost his sword, or DA 2 Anders / Justice / Vengeance for some a freedom fighter and for others a terrorist and then the real Blackwall aka Thom Rainier who killed a family for some gold. Lets hope that Lucanis as an assassin is more of a grey character rather been a misunderstood freedom fighter against the Qunari invasion.
It is concerning that they decided to force their own ethics on everyone else. Especially in the Dragon Age series that typically has a lot of replayability so people can try different paths, among other things. I don´t get it why they water down the series that much. Are they hoping for a lower rating aka a Teen? Well for the american market aka the most important one this would be stupic because of the nudity its still a Mature but for some european market aka Pegi and USK? Are they hoping for 16 instead of an 18? I think that they don´t want to make and write about more adult themes that was in DAO and DA 2. Just play it safe so almost everybody can play it and nobody (besides some jerks who really hates Bioware because of the LGBTQIA+ content but f.. them) should be confronted with stuff which would make the person feel uncomfortable.
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Post by Wulfram on Jul 13, 2024 10:55:33 GMT
I think its hard to do blood magic properly without making it quite central to the game. Just making it a specialisation was alway pretty rubbish and rather undermined the lore by making it seem like no big deal. So I'm fine with them not including it. But I don't really like the logic given for not including it.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 13, 2024 11:30:36 GMT
Weekes is writing Tash a lord of Fortune who hunts dragons. She is killing an endangered species for the glory and the bling. So she's the kind of hero we want around ? I understand not wanting blood magic because you don't wanna waste story ressources on combat spe. But implying it's all about the moral high ground is silly. Some of the what-about-isms I have seen in this thread are an interesting read. But we aren't hunting down Dragons in Veilguard 'for the glory and the bling', even if that is what will result for such things but the set up we got from the Thedas Calls trailer and the blog stuff which came out makes it quite clear that the Dragons are causing issues, destroying property, taking lives. And humans do tend to hunt other creatures or otherwise neutralize them if they are a danger to human lives. Other less then sentient creatures also hunt down different creaturs if there lives are also threatened. That does tend to be a pretty universal law and the one reason why, no matter what else happens with Solas's plan, his plan to cause mass casualties needs to be stopped. So, while it might be a grey choice, its still a justified one. Which is a whole different ball of wax from demon binding, mind control, blood sacrifice, the works. For largely the same reasons. Stripping someone of their free will or their life are pretty much two big moral lines that one shouldn't cross unless under the most extreme circumstances. Again, maybe they couldn't worded it better, but honestly they are perfectly right. Blood magic while it may be 'morally neutral' by itself it opens up the possibility for a lot of evil, the quick and easy path. I think this has been best seen with Rezaren from Tevinter Nights, just how quickly one can go from 'I will use my own blood' to 'die slaves!' So they may have other reasons for doing it but it seems perfectly reasonable to restrict it based on moral grounds because it can be.
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Post by theascendent on Jul 13, 2024 11:49:15 GMT
If we Mages can't be blood mages, at least Warriors can't be templars. Is it weird that we care more about morally ambiguous blood letting than magical drug addict zealots. At the end of the day, I am more disappointed and frustrated than angry. Not to mention the plot point of why we can't use Blood Magic. I can work with and around the more 'acceptable' Dark Magic of necromancy, if we really want to call ourselves 'Heroes' in the modern sense, and not protagonists or 'Heroes' in the classical sense.
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Post by jennica on Jul 13, 2024 12:00:39 GMT
I think that they don´t want to make and write about more adult themes that was in DAO and DA 2. Just play it safe so almost everybody can play it and nobody (besides some jerks who really hates Bioware because of the LGBTQIA+ content but f.. them) should be confronted with stuff which would make the person feel uncomfortable. Weeks didn't say that DAVe won't have any mature themes. If anything, we've been told the opposite in some of the interviews. And Tevinter Nights is not exactly a book for children either. So I don't think the reason for not letting Rook (and protagonists in future games, i guess) to be a blood mage is that Bioware doesn't want to make people uncomfortable.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 13, 2024 12:04:15 GMT
I don't agree. Simply because of the stakes...which are either the complete annihilation of Thedas and its peoples or a revival of the "old ways" by the two that are released (incidently I'd love to see a cutscene of the subjugated receiving their vallaslin in this scenario). This is only a valid argument if blood magic was the only way to defeat them. Now to be honest I would like them to have allowed either one of our companions or Rook to have the option of Seeker powers. It makes you immune to mind control, so countering the blood mages, and has a pretty nasty high level skill that would seem to mimic the blood boiling spell of the blood mages too. I thought it would be really useful against Evanuris and Solas and can hardly be called an evil specialism considering the supposed "good guys" use it. However, even though she told us what makes them unique, Cassandra ended up with regular Templar abilities, so there does seem to be a gap between what they say people can do in the setting and what they allow. Hell if the writer(s) of House of Dragons can make so many morally abhorrent practices into good storytelling and characters somehow likeable I'm fairly certain blood magic could be made to work in DAV. They are two completely different genres. One is a TV show where they control entirely the reaction of people in the world it is set; the other is a computer game where they have to consider multiple reactions of the companions and how this might effect the outcome, plus the players as well. I repeat, it was possible to justify the use of blood magic by a Grey Warden; it was even possible at a stretch to do so in an individual like Hawke (although it was still odd that none of the companions noticed) but I can understand why it wouldn't have worked as the Inquisitor or in Rook unless they were going to make it unduly complicated. I will be far more upset if none of our enemies end up using blood magic because I expect them to do so. That was my main gripe about DAI. The Venatori were from Tevinter and wanting to get back to the old days when blood magic was commonplace and not done behind closed doors. When confronted by a high level blood mage it should be terrifying. I think it should be possible for them to use it to control our companions (like the vampires could in BG2). You never know, perhaps that is something they are going to spring on us this time round.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 13, 2024 12:09:52 GMT
I think this has been best seen with Rezaren from Tevinter Nights, Absolution. ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/RebJidSPcxyF0U0Rr0uW.png)
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 13, 2024 12:20:11 GMT
If we Mages can't be blood mages, at least Warriors can't be templars. Is it weird that we care more about morally ambiguous blood letting than magical drug addict zealots. Not this time round. Besides it has always been obvious there was a degree of hypocrisy in the Chantry over what they did and did not allow. However, the prohibition against blood magic was on the grounds that it can be used to control minds and thus takes away a person's mental freedom in a very forceful way. (I know tranquility does too but let's not go there this time). That is what has always really frightened people about it more than simply the blood sacrifice aspect of it, because it violates the individual even if you are using your own blood to perform the spell. I imagine that is probably what Andraste was referring to when she said: "Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him. Foul and corrupt are they who have taken his gift and turned it against his children. They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones." Contrary to what the southern Chantry teaches, she didn't object to mages in positions of power (since she was probably one herself) but to magic which took away the freedom of others. This is why I will be quite happy if our enemies are using blood magic in this way, even to the extent of controlling our companions and turning them against us. Meanwhile, hopefully we will be allowed to question Emmrich about just how free Manfred is. I think Necromancy is now their alternative to full blown blood magic as the morally ambiguous magic that we can use.
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Kendaric
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Post by Kendaric on Jul 13, 2024 12:22:23 GMT
I have no interest in mages or magic anyway, so whether we have access to blood magic or not doesn't affect me. I'm more concerned about the loss of templar as a spec for warriors than the loss of blood magic (which we didn't have for a long time) for the mages.
If going forward they remove it from the lore entirely, it would be an issue though. Dark and mature themes are what makes Dragon Age different from the hundreds of bland high magic, high fantasy settings out there.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 13, 2024 12:33:17 GMT
I'm more concerned about the loss of templar as a spec for warriors than the loss of blood magic (which we didn't have for a long time) for the mages. I think we're only losing it this game because there is no tradition for its use in Tevinter. The Templars there are regular soldiers. I expect the Magisters would never want to waste their precious lyrium on a mundane. None of the factions we are associating with have any real connection with the southern Chantry, apart from perhaps the Grey Wardens, so there is no reason why anyone we encounter or Rook would be trained as a southern Templar. One of the Talons in Tevinter Nights had apparently become addicted through pretending to be a Templar in order to infiltrate them and I imagine his example would deter any of the other Crows from doing the same. I'm sure the Mortalitasi would not want Templars investigating what they get up to in the Grand Necropolis. The Shadow Dragons draw from people in Tevinter, so no addicts there and no reason for a southern Templars to be part of either the Lords of Fortune or the Veil Jumpers, although the latter might find them useful in "reinforcing reality" or whatever it was that Solas says Templars do. Anyway, that seems the logical reason to me why the Templar spec doesn't feature this time round.
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Post by helios969 on Jul 13, 2024 14:16:48 GMT
This is only a valid argument if blood magic was the only way to defeat them. That's something that we shouldn't know ahead of time...and is really just being arbitrarily decided by the devs. It's their narrative so they get to do that but I do think you sacrifice player agency when doing those sorts of things.
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Post by roselavellan on Jul 13, 2024 14:27:19 GMT
I can understand their decision tbh. When I read that part with Magister Zara in the Wigmakers Job, I thought her casual attitude towards blood magic was absolutely chilling. I can imagine Bioware would want to preserve the emotional impact of an evil gesture like this.
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Post by smilesja on Jul 13, 2024 14:51:56 GMT
Weekes is writing Tash a lord of Fortune who hunts dragons. She is killing an endangered species for the glory and the bling. So she's the kind of hero we want around ? I understand not wanting blood magic because you don't wanna waste story ressources on combat spe. But implying it's all about the moral high ground is silly. Some of the what-about-isms I have seen in this thread are an interesting read. But we aren't hunting down Dragons in Veilguard 'for the glory and the bling', even if that is what will result for such things but the set up we got from the Thedas Calls trailer and the blog stuff which came out makes it quite clear that the Dragons are causing issues, destroying property, taking lives. And humans do tend to hunt other creatures or otherwise neutralize them if they are a danger to human lives. Other less then sentient creatures also hunt down different creaturs if there lives are also threatened. That does tend to be a pretty universal law and the one reason why, no matter what else happens with Solas's plan, his plan to cause mass casualties needs to be stopped. So, while it might be a grey choice, its still a justified one. Which is a whole different ball of wax from demon binding, mind control, blood sacrifice, the works. For largely the same reasons. Stripping someone of their free will or their life are pretty much two big moral lines that one shouldn't cross unless under the most extreme circumstances. Again, maybe they couldn't worded it better, but honestly they are perfectly right. Blood magic while it may be 'morally neutral' by itself it opens up the possibility for a lot of evil, the quick and easy path. I think this has been best seen with Rezaren from Tevinter Nights, just how quickly one can go from 'I will use my own blood' to 'die slaves!' So they may have other reasons for doing it but it seems perfectly reasonable to restrict it based on moral grounds because it can be. Besides, it's not like Dragons were peaceful, we've seen plenty of scenes of them causing death and destruction. Yes Tash's motivations are less than noble, but we don't blink because the creatures she's killing aren't exactly the kinds you want to hang around lol.
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theratpack55
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theratpack55
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Post by theratpack55 on Jul 13, 2024 18:59:10 GMT
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