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Post by colfoley on Jul 14, 2024 9:53:23 GMT
But it's the most fun one. "You're all terrible people so I'm going to make you spend more time together." *walks off into the distance laughing all the way back to Skyhold* Loghain greatly approves. effin orleseans. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/CeRUIfXurYhaBmWjMBkt.png)
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Jul 14, 2024 13:04:30 GMT
honestly I'd argue it's probably the worse outcome. But it's the most fun one. "You're all terrible people so I'm going to make you spend more time together." *walks off into the distance laughing all the way back to Skyhold* The time my Qunari mage Inquisitor got maximum Court Approval, arrested the Duchess, forced the three of them to work together and popped the 'Belle of the Ball' achievement all at once is still once of my greatest Dragon Age experiences. That'll show them all to call him an ox man and assume he's bad at the Game.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 14, 2024 14:36:43 GMT
honestly I'd argue it's probably the worse outcome. Loghain greatly approves. Yes, I certainly don't think it was in Orlais' best interests to basically leave it exactly as it was before but pretending in public they were all good friends now, whilst really the civil war continued behind the scenes. The time my Qunari mage Inquisitor got maximum Court Approval, arrested the Duchess, forced the three of them to work together and popped the 'Belle of the Ball' achievement all at once is still once of my greatest Dragon Age experiences. That'll show them all to call him an ox man and assume he's bad at the Game. I felt the same way with my elf first run, particularly if I ignored what I knew from Masked Empire. However, I must admit that I did take a certain satisfaction from letting the Duchess murder Celene (remember the elves of Halamshiral and the servants who died to put you on the throne) and then forcing Gaspard to work with Briala (remember the elves you likely killed in order to graduate as a Chevalier, plus your insult to the memory of Shartan) my Dalish spy having made it his business to know everything that had occurred. I don't often allow events in associated media to colour my decisions but in this case I made an exception. My only regret was that it was Briala who benefited from my actions, at least initially. I imagine she wouldn't have lasted long after I disbanded the Inquisition, unless Divine Leliana assisted her.
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Post by wickedcool on Jul 14, 2024 14:43:02 GMT
The argument that they tightened it up from da origins is false. Isn’t default hawke basically a blood mage with the blood smear
My argument carry’s over from the brothels and in tiny cuts it hurts player freedom
Dai there was a lot less blood magic overall. Yes the templates were exposed to red lyrium but there was a lot less blood magic. The entire game is full of demons and you can even talk to 1 but yet there’s no real blood magic performed
From what I can tell based on the gameplay trailer there’s once again less npc interaction. Yes it’s a small sample size but 2 things Iinoticed
There’s a bunch of npcs around a market stall and 1 is highlighted (a beggar perhaps
There’s demons running across your path but it appears they are just there as birds would be in another game. They can’t be interacted or fought
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Post by necrowaif on Jul 14, 2024 17:00:59 GMT
You’re forgetting about Here Lies the Abyss, wickedcool. The Wardens are using a blood magic ritual to summon demons and sacrificing their fellow members to do it.
That said, that’s really the only example of blood magic in DAI, aside from references to it in codexes.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 14, 2024 17:53:33 GMT
From what I can tell based on the gameplay trailer there’s once again less npc interaction. Yes it’s a small sample size but 2 things Iinoticed There’s a bunch of npcs around a market stall and 1 is highlighted (a beggar perhaps There’s demons running across your path but it appears they are just there as birds would be in another game. They can’t be interacted or fought They did say how it was heavily edited. Normally it would take around an hour to complete, not 15 minutes. Also, in past games the amount of NPC interaction would depend on the situation. Normally you would not be able to interact whilst combat was underway, except with specific individuals. So far as I could tell, you could interact with the beggar (they didn't in the trailer), then there was a pause whilst some NPCs moved something to let you pass, after which they rounded a corner and there was the cut scene with the search light on the commoner. Immediately following that, the combat sequence begins. No, you can't interact and fight with all the demons you encounter but I think that was just meant to show how they were running riot around the city. The government security system also picked off a few. However, there were definitely confrontations with some demons and also Venatori. Since the trailer was meant to highlight the game play/fighting, I fail to see how you can make such broad assumptions about NPC interactions from that. How many did we interact with in the prologue to DAI or DA2 for that matter? From what I recall any interactions were with specific named characters that were going to play a part in the game in between battle action. The same was true of DAV.
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Post by githcheater on Jul 14, 2024 18:28:32 GMT
Am I the only one who enjoyed Darkspawn Chronicles?
Even mustache curling evil can be fun if you don't take it seriously ... it's just a game ... like Grand Theft Auto?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 14, 2024 18:42:30 GMT
There’s demons running across your path but it appears they are just there as birds would be in another game. They can’t be interacted or fought That part annoyed me, since I’d like a chance to try saving people instead of just running past letting them get murdered by Solas’s actions.
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Post by wickedcool on Jul 14, 2024 18:52:41 GMT
Gut feeling with no factual basis but it’s 2024. Graphically it looks great but it feels like dai beginning where guards are running around getting blasted and we are just running through it.
The warden scene in dai is a good catch but for blood magic I miss running into mages that sometimes go to desperate and turned
If Patrick weekend has been the lead on last 2 I think there’s a lot of stuff they didnt like from the dao universe and the excuse is it doesn’t fit. My argument is make it fit
Stop hamstringing roleplaying and turning this into more of an action game
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Post by themikefest on Jul 14, 2024 18:55:21 GMT
Am I the only one who enjoyed Darkspawn Chronicles? Even mustache curling evil can be fun if you don't take it seriously ... it's just a game ... like Grand Theft Auto? You are not. It was great playing as a darkspawn. Too bad Bioware didn't make a Reaper Chronicle dlc for ME3.
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Post by jennica on Jul 14, 2024 18:58:03 GMT
If Patrick weekend has been the lead on last 2 I think there’s a lot of stuff they didnt like from the dao universe and the excuse is it doesn’t fit. My argument is make it fit David Gaider was a lead writer in DAI, not Weekes.
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Post by theratpack55 on Jul 14, 2024 19:10:37 GMT
Am I the only one who enjoyed Darkspawn Chronicles? Even mustache curling evil can be fun if you don't take it seriously ... it's just a game ... like Grand Theft Auto? I enjoy it unironically, as someone in the administration business. The murder is cathartic.
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Post by wickedcool on Jul 14, 2024 20:45:51 GMT
Then weekes and gaider think alike
No dog 2
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Jul 14, 2024 21:43:04 GMT
Then weekes and gaider think alike No dog 2 I mean, I think they do, more or less, but Gaider was also lead on DAO and DA2. A change in lead writer is not the explanation for this change.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 15, 2024 1:33:30 GMT
The argument that they tightened it up from da origins is false. Isn’t default hawke basically a blood mage with the blood smear My argument carry’s over from the brothels and in tiny cuts it hurts player freedom Dai there was a lot less blood magic overall. Yes the templates were exposed to red lyrium but there was a lot less blood magic. The entire game is full of demons and you can even talk to 1 but yet there’s no real blood magic performed From what I can tell based on the gameplay trailer there’s once again less npc interaction. Yes it’s a small sample size but 2 things Iinoticed There’s a bunch of npcs around a market stall and 1 is highlighted (a beggar perhaps There’s demons running across your path but it appears they are just there as birds would be in another game. They can’t be interacted or fought well this did give me an excuse to rewatch the gameplay trailer again, but there are two big problems that I am seeing pop up elsewhere. First, there seems to be the idea that just because DAI didn't focus on the exact things that Origins did in the exact way and that somehow makes it lesser. That without blood magic or brothels that the game is somehow less mature. When the game still has all the horror of red lyrium, the body and psychological aspects, deals with demons, the horror of war, and the maturity of politics this is nonsense. It even makes it worse when you consider blood magic. It was in DAI, a lot. The Venatori are a cult of blood mages, Corypheus, his plan with Erasmeus, and Calpernia but just because we didn't see him personally make the sacrifice I guess to a certain percentage of the fandom it did not exist. That single beggar in Minrathous is already pushing things. My initial reaction is, why is that there? And I'm hoping it's an isolated incident and not a trend of some of the more 'choices' at the expense of logic and reason. Like I'm curious what happens so early in the game if you click on him but really given you had to hurry up and were under a time pressure to save Neve and stop Solas there is very little reason to do it. I almost wonder if that beggar is just going to be there throughout the game to interact with and that is the reason why he's there. Then the time problems get much worse if we stopped to fight every demon on the way. Like it already stretches credibility that level 1 Rook is able to take on a Pride Demon, at least he had his team...but to then stop to fight every Demon when there us a time crunch? Even if Rook had somehow survived the encounter Solas would've completed his ritual and then who knows if we'd survive the demons that resulted. The demons were visual storytelling of exactly what was going on and how dire the circumstances, didn't need to be anything else.
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Post by Guardian on Jul 15, 2024 1:43:38 GMT
The argument that they tightened it up from da origins is false. Isn’t default hawke basically a blood mage with the blood smear My argument carry’s over from the brothels and in tiny cuts it hurts player freedom Dai there was a lot less blood magic overall. Yes the templates were exposed to red lyrium but there was a lot less blood magic. The entire game is full of demons and you can even talk to 1 but yet there’s no real blood magic performed From what I can tell based on the gameplay trailer there’s once again less npc interaction. Yes it’s a small sample size but 2 things Iinoticed There’s a bunch of npcs around a market stall and 1 is highlighted (a beggar perhaps There’s demons running across your path but it appears they are just there as birds would be in another game. They can’t be interacted or fought well this did give me an excuse to rewatch the gameplay trailer again, but there are two big problems that I am seeing pop up elsewhere. First, there seems to be the idea that just because DAI didn't focus on the exact things that Origins did in the exact way and that somehow makes it lesser. That without blood magic or brothels that the game is somehow less mature. When the game still has all the horror of red lyrium, the body and psychological aspects, deals with demons, the horror of war, and the maturity of politics this is nonsense. It even makes it worse when you consider blood magic. It was in DAI, a lot. The Venatori are a cult of blood mages, Corypheus, his plan with Erasmeus, and Calpernia but just because we didn't see him personally make the sacrifice I guess to a certain percentage of the fandom it did not exist. That single beggar in Minrathous is already pushing things. My initial reaction is, why is that there? And I'm hoping it's an isolated incident and not a trend of some of the more 'choices' at the expense of logic and reason. Like I'm curious what happens so early in the game if you click on him but really given you had to hurry up and were under a time pressure to save Neve and stop Solas there is very little reason to do it. I almost wonder if that beggar is just going to be there throughout the game to interact with and that is the reason why he's there. Then the time problems get much worse if we stopped to fight every demon on the way. Like it already stretches credibility that level 1 Rook is able to take on a Pride Demon, at least he had his team...but to then stop to fight every Demon when there us a time crunch? Even if Rook had somehow survived the encounter Solas would've completed his ritual and then who knows if we'd survive the demons that resulted. The demons were visual storytelling of exactly what was going on and how dire the circumstances, didn't need to be anything else. Good points, from you both.
The bottom line is, is it wrong they took away blood magic as an option? Yes. However, it's ultimately BioWare's decision, and they want to tell the story of Rook as a Hero. And in their eyes, Blood Magic isn't "heroic". If they survive this game, perhaps in future installments, it will return. But for now, we can't change their minds about it.
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Post by wickedcool on Jul 15, 2024 2:18:23 GMT
Agreed the cake is baked.
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Post by illuminated11 on Jul 15, 2024 2:55:31 GMT
I get wanting the option back, but I hope people don't seriously think brothels and blood magic are what make a story mature. That's just pure pulp at best, a sophomoric understanding of maturity at worst.
Also, I imagine the opening in the tavern offers downtime and lets us ease into the story, talk with people and establish the basics of our character before everything goes wrong. From what I've seen, they've already corrected one of the bigger issues I had with Inquisition opening, in that it wanted to create all these mysteries that wound up not being very interesting, and I'm hopeful what was cut out continues that trend.
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Post by Walter Black on Jul 15, 2024 4:13:49 GMT
Speaking purely for myself, blood magic as a narrative device is merely a means to an end. There are any number of other avenues that can explore similar themes of temptation, power, manipulation, addiction, desperation, sadism and such. The real problem is that in Patrick Weekes' own words is that exploring the nastier side of being a "hero" isn’t something the current writers are interested in exploring.
It isn't blood magic in particular that many care about, it's the lack of agency and role playing in a ROLE PLAYING GAME. Maybe I don't want to be a yet another hero for the hundredth time, and would rather be a villian or antihero. Maybe I want to start as an utter bastard, but slowly find redemption. Maybe my PC is idealistic but naive, making a few bad calls in a tragic misunderstanding and breaks. I've already done a self insert, now I want a STORY.
The new writers knew the DRAGON AGE franchise was a dark, adult world with complex characters and no easy answers. They KNEW this is what attracted and kept DA's most fans. If they wanted a more idealistic power fantasy, then they should’ve had the honesty and guts to create a new IP, instead of "fixing" what wasn't broken.
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Post by illuminated11 on Jul 15, 2024 4:29:58 GMT
Speaking purely for myself, blood magic as a narrative device is merely a means to an end. There are any number of other avenues that can explore similar themes of temptation, power, manipulation, addiction, desperation, sadism and such. The real problem is that in Patrick Weekes' own words is that exploring the nastier side of being a "hero" isn’t something the current writers are interested in exploring. It isn't blood magic in particular that many care about, it's the lack of agency and role playing in a ROLE PLAYING GAME. Maybe I don't want to be a yet another hero for the hundredth time, and would rather be a villian or antihero. Maybe I want to start as an utter bastard, but slowly find redemption. Maybe my PC is idealistic but naive, making a few bad calls in a tragic misunderstanding and breaks. I've already done a self insert, now I want a STORY. The new writers knew the DRAGON AGE franchise was a dark, adult world with complex characters and no easy answers. They KNEW this is what attracted and kept DA's most fans. If they wanted a more idealistic power fantasy, then they should’ve had the honesty and guts to create a new IP, instead of "fixing" what wasn't broken. But the blood magic specialization never actually explored most of those issues, that's why there was so much dissonance. If you actually suffered the effects of addiction--if, say, the more you used blood magic the more seizures you would have if you stopped, I might be right there with you. Or if, as another example, your sanity was threatened, a la Amnesia, the more often you use blood magic. But that's not what happens. Much of the time, you suffer few repercussions for these actions. Making a deal with Connor's demon, for example, never amounts to anything narratively. It's a dead end, a way to close the Redcliffe quest line. It's not an exploration and it might be dark, but only in the superficial, shallow manner of shock value.
Edit: And frankly, if you're interested in genuinely dark, gripping story telling, you go for the option to kill Connor. That choice is far more visceral and emotional than anything involving the blood mage path.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 15, 2024 6:52:13 GMT
Then weekes and gaider think alike No dog 2 I mean, I think they do, more or less, but Gaider was also lead on DAO and DA2. A change in lead writer is not the explanation for this change. There is a simple lore based explanation. In DAO we were from Ferelden, where they have a long established tradition and folklore connected with dogs. As a result mabari in particular are highly prized. So, it would stand to reason the option would be there to either adopt the dog, if we wish, by curing it first, or even have one of our own to begin with, if you have a human noble background. Then in DA2 Hawke was a native of Ferelden, so it would make sense they have a mabari which they take with them. However, in DAI, the PC was either a native of the Freemarches or based somewhere other than Ferelden. Thus there is no reason they would have a mabari. Whilst Leliana was born in Ferelden, she spent much of her life in Orlais and was steeped in their culture rather than her own. The majority of the other members of the Inquisition were the same or likely left any pets with their families when they joined up. There was no large contingent of Ash Warriors that could have been recruited because the majority if not all of them were killed at Ostagar. However, Cullen clearly never forgot his roots as by Trespasser he had adopted a mabari but clearly it would not have been suitable to be a companion at that stage, particularly as it was imprinted on him. Now with DAV we are in northern Thedas. Again, no tradition of dogs as pets (Fenris said the mabari defected from Tevinter and ended up fighting against them, so that could be why). The Archon is said to like cats but our PC is not from a Tevinter faction associated with the hierarchy. However, we are going to have an animal as part of the team, a griffon. Admittedly, it will not belong to our PC but does appear likely to be an extra party member if you take Davrin with you, although that remains to be confirmed. Otherwise, Assan will be there to interact with in the Lighthouse. Dog in DAO was an actual party member, which meant taking a slot from another companion. How many people really kept dog in the party once they had the full roster of alternatives? As a ranger in DAO you could also summon a wolf, bear, etc to fight alongside you. I found this really useful as it increased our number of combatants, particularly if I gave the ranger spec to my other rogue companions in addition to their original one. The alternative in DA2 was to give us the ability to summon our mabari as an additional companion regardless of our class. I wouldn't have minded such an ability back in DAV but only if it was appropriate to our backstory or the narrative and at present that doesn't appear to be the case.
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Post by roselavellan on Jul 15, 2024 8:25:03 GMT
It isn't blood magic in particular that many care about, it's the lack of agency and role playing in a ROLE PLAYING GAME. Maybe I don't want to be a yet another hero for the hundredth time, and would rather be a villian or antihero. Maybe I want to start as an utter bastard, but slowly find redemption. Maybe my PC is idealistic but naive, making a few bad calls in a tragic misunderstanding and breaks. I've already done a self insert, now I want a STORY. I didn't see Weekes' post as completely ruling out all types of antiheroes. What I understand is that they wanted to make it clear that certain things were irredeemably corrupting, which I believe is realistic. Easier to rule out blood magic use than to give the player an early game over screen, no matter how hilarious it might be to the rest of us (not so much the player who'd invested 30 hours into their play). Or if one were to assert that the hero must be given an avenue to overcome or withstand irredeemable corruption, then I would actually call THAT an idealistic power fantasy. There are a number of paths we can take in a role playing game, I personally prefer an approach with fewer options, all of which are coherent with the narrative vision the writers have, over an approach with a large number of options which might or might not make sense, or be properly fleshed out. As far as I have gathered, the only thing the fanbase has been more or less unified about is their appreciation for its romances. Also, you can still have a dark, adult world with complex characters without its saviour using blood magic.
Having said all this, I have sympathy for those who played blood mages in previous games and enjoyed it. It always stings to have something taken away from you, though really it was already removed in DAI.
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Post by helios969 on Jul 15, 2024 9:35:28 GMT
unified about is their appreciation for its romances Hmmm, unified might be a stretch.
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Post by The Pluto Lounge on Jul 15, 2024 10:53:00 GMT
Yea, DAI didn't have much blood magic. To me that game is the transition away from Dark Fantasy.
It's a shame that instead of adding much needed nuance to blood magic, that it will just be a tool to showcase how evil or dumb someone is.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 15, 2024 11:44:42 GMT
Speaking purely for myself, blood magic as a narrative device is merely a means to an end. There are any number of other avenues that can explore similar themes of temptation, power, manipulation, addiction, desperation, sadism and such. The real problem is that in Patrick Weekes' own words is that exploring the nastier side of being a "hero" isn’t something the current writers are interested in exploring. It isn't blood magic in particular that many care about, it's the lack of agency and role playing in a ROLE PLAYING GAME. Maybe I don't want to be a yet another hero for the hundredth time, and would rather be a villian or antihero. Maybe I want to start as an utter bastard, but slowly find redemption. Maybe my PC is idealistic but naive, making a few bad calls in a tragic misunderstanding and breaks. I've already done a self insert, now I want a STORY. The new writers knew the DRAGON AGE franchise was a dark, adult world with complex characters and no easy answers. They KNEW this is what attracted and kept DA's most fans. If they wanted a more idealistic power fantasy, then they should’ve had the honesty and guts to create a new IP, instead of "fixing" what wasn't broken. To paraphrase something that I said in a previous post, the removal of Blood Magic proves nothing other then that Blood Magic will have been removed. Blood magic isn't the only avenue to creating an anti hero, indeed there is a huge difference between being a jerk/ anti hero/ fallen idealist/ jaded hero that learns to be better throughout the game, and someone who is going out of their way to do evil things for the sake of evil. They have drawn a very specific line here at MInd Control, demon binding, and the potential corruption for blood magic. This makes a lot of esense and these are all things far beyond what a 'jerk' would do. Not sure how much I should go into the weeds on this but Jack Bauer often made a habbit of torturing suspects all in the name of the greater good and to get information to stop the bad guys...but he was never allowed to detonate a nuke. The Warden was also never able to join the Archdemon. There are things that a hero should never be allowed to do if you want to have any logical sense at all. There are some limited options, always have been, always will be. And these aren't new writers writing this game. These writers have worked on Origins, 2, and the MET. They have plenty of experience in writing 'dark', mature fiction. It is highly unlikely that they are 'fixing' anything nor is it likely they are, based on what we have seen and heard, changing it away from a dark fantasy setting with complex characters. DA is almost certainly not going to be an idealistic power fantasy moving forward. Now we will see how much this remains true going on in the future given the writer turn over...and honestly I am pretty sure they haven't got a single new writer going into Veilguard. Anyways from there we can continue to look into the marketing and what they have released since then as our greatest clues as to the direction the series will take: -'They Call me the Dread Wolf, what will they call you when this is over?' Suggesting that Rook will be able to do some pretty morally questionable things to earn such a title. - In the Horrors of Hormok we have seen gestalt abomination type combination creatures which, while didn't really translate well on the page, still suggests that the series tradition of body horror will continue. We even have seen some pictures to that effect. -Plenty of Demonic influences throughout Tevinter Nights which suggests psychological horror will also still be in play. -The Regret Demon. -Antonione getting fed on by the Werewolf and the Hunger Demon playing on his...well...hunger. - An Old Crowe's Tricks started off with a old lady coming up to a simple Tevinter guard, we find out that the lady is a Crow and the guard was part of wiping out an entire Dalish camp. -In DA Absolution we saw Rezaren slaughter a High Dragon and use the blood to power a ritual...also using the blood for a bunch of dead guards. -Rezaren also is a bit of an interesting case given his motivations and his promise to try and restore the dead and make Tevinter a better place, but yet also given his dabbling in Blood Magic and also his obsession, and arrogance, ends up being his undoing. -Also from Absolution you have Hira, presented as a fairly sympathetic figure who is involved in a relationship with the main character but ends up being sort of the *actual* main villain of the series. -In the opening Gameplay reveal for Veilguard we saw Varric try and chat to talk with Solas and bring him down. He wasn't really being treated like some black villain that had to be killed but as someone who had more grey and could be reasoned with. Sure, as I have said, all of these in isolation and even amonst themselves don't prove much. But it is indicitive of where they are going, it paints a picture.
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