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Post by jennica on Jul 17, 2024 18:35:27 GMT
Even the Missing seemed leaning more that way in style, although you can see the floating structure (without security beams) in the comic. I don't see any difference between the Missing and this. I feel like Minrathous was inspired by Byzantine Empire's architecture, rather than Roman Empire's one. But all the pointy pieces definitely give it a gothic feeling, which is not typical for byzantine architecture, at least, based on what quick google search shows me. However, what we saw in the gameplay reveal looks similar to Tevinter structures in DAI. Not identical, mind you, but similar enough.
Edit: ok, now that i looked a bit more, it doesn't look like Byzantine architecture either lol.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 17, 2024 19:46:49 GMT
I don't see any difference between the Missing and this. I agree and I assume we will be visiting the harbour area at some point. Rook did say it was a very big city, which is why he didn't know that part of it. Whilst it is on an island, it could be a very big island, wholly given over to the city. They used to say it had a population of 1 million, which is pretty large but depending on the source you read, could be approximately the same as ancient Rome. I lived on the Isle of Wight off the southern coast of England and that was 150 sq.miles with a population of 140,000, mostly in various towns around the north and east coast, so the majority was sparsely populated and rural. I imagine if you had an island half its size it could accommodate 1 million easily enough if you didn't need much green space. That's why I wondered if the area in the trailer was more a downtown, market sort of area and the ritzy, more byzantine type structures are elsewhere.
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Post by jennica on Jul 17, 2024 20:00:02 GMT
I don't see any difference between the Missing and this. I agree and I assume we will be visiting the harbour area at some point. Rook did say it was a very big city, which is why he didn't know that part of it. Whilst it is on an island, it could be a very big island, wholly given over to the city. They used to say it had a population of 1 million, which is pretty large but depending on the source you read, could be approximately the same as ancient Rome. I lived on the Isle of Wight off the southern coast of England and that was 150 sq.miles with a population of 140,000, mostly in various towns around the north and east coast, so the majority was sparsely populated and rural. I imagine if you had an island half its size it could accommodate 1 million easily enough if you didn't need much green space. That's why I wondered if the area in the trailer was more a downtown, market sort of area and the ritzy, more byzantine type structures are elsewhere. Tbh, i doubt that other parts of Minrathous will have completely different architecture style, because i think Bioware would've already shown us that, either in 2020 trailer or screenshots from the game. I remember there was a concept art with some kind of light/magic show and i think it might've looked a bit different from what we saw, but i can't find it. And i'm not even sure if it looked different in the first place.
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Post by illuminated11 on Jul 17, 2024 22:30:48 GMT
But I don't really need him to mention it either, because, I mean, it's based off Rome. Pretty sure they didn't have flying security in ancient Rome either. Also, I assume the part of the city we were in was more downtown rather than the enclave of the Altus because those buildings didn't make me think of ancient Rome much either and are definitely nothing like what we saw in the Netflix series, much of which took place in the southern city of Nessum. in and around the Summer Palace of the Black Divine. I'm also hoping that we are going to have a day/night cycle so we can see it in daylight when we next visit. Still, I don't want to be too critical because at least they do appear to have put more into depicting Minrathous than they did Val Royeaux but I must admit these shots taken from the show are more how I imagined Minrathous would be. -snip- Even the Missing seemed leaning more that way in style, although you can see the floating structure (without security beams) in the comic.
I'm on the record that the flying (although it seems more like it's floating than outright flying) defense system is something that only came about after Inquisition, which is why it wasn't mentioned. That's totally different to me from the spotlights in and of themselves.
There WERE more gothic spires than I was anticipating in the concept art, but I went through the gameplay trailer again and a lot of the architecture looks like what we see in the Missing. (Granted it's hard to get a good angle on most of it.) The only difference is in how it's lit. I'm not sure how much we can take from Absolution because I don't think the main teams at Bioware were all that involved in its creation.
How Minrathous looks in the day will tell us more about what the buildings are constructed from. And lol yes, it already seems much better than Val Royeaux from this vertical slice alone. I love cityscapes and Inquisition was terrible in that regard.
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Post by KalleDemos on Jul 17, 2024 23:38:03 GMT
This article sums up many of my thoughts on the matter.
'Without Blood Magic, Dragon Age Loses A Little Bit More Of Its Identity' www.thegamer.com/dragon-age-the-veilguard-blood-magic-identity/"Blood magic has always been present in Dragon Age, and is treated with disdain and suspicion. Though one's own blood can be used for the practice, blood magic is feared because it often uses someone else's blood, such as that of a prisoner or enemy." Kinda strange article, tbh, considering that you couldn't be a blood mage in DAI as well. The context of DAI was frostbite and multiplayer. As we know FB was difficult to work with and multiplayer restricted things further with the whole fire/ice/lighting balance thing they were going for. That of course is not the heart of the article. Tho Blood Magic was not a specialization it was never far from the narrative and character stories. Even among the horror there was some nuance. Relegating Blood Magic to 'the evil thing that evil people do' is a considerable shift away from the previous games. Especially considering the setting, potential subject matter and historical relevance Blood Magic has in DATV, this stance by the devs/writers seems like a massive missed opportunity. And Blood Magic or no, lessening player agency and positioning the DATV into a more 'heroic' role is a shift as well. The players should be the ones to decide their protagonist's moral leanings.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 18, 2024 0:06:59 GMT
Kinda strange article, tbh, considering that you couldn't be a blood mage in DAI as well. The context of DAI was frostbite and multiplayer. As we know FB was difficult to work with and multiplayer restricted things further with the whole fire/ice/lighting balance thing they were going for. That of course is not the heart of the article. Tho Blood Magic was not a specialization it was never far from the narrative and character stories. Even among the horror there was some nuance. Relegating Blood Magic to 'the evil thing that evil people do' is a considerable shift away from the previous games. Especially considering the setting, potential subject matter and historical relevance Blood Magic has in DATV, this stance by the devs/writers seems like a massive missed opportunity. And Blood Magic or no, lessening player agency and positioning the DATV into a more 'heroic' role is a shift as well. The players should be the ones to decide their protagonist's moral leanings.
blood magic has always been portrayed as being very dangerous and taboo in the series at this point. Just the Warden and Hawke were the 'Exceptions to the Rule'
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Post by q5tyhj on Jul 18, 2024 0:34:22 GMT
Gosh, yeah, the time travel stuff was so misplaced. You cannot introduce something so OP and then never mention it again. No idea what they were thinking, really bad idea. So I hope going forward we'll all pretend that never happened and time travel is NOT a thing in Thedas. time travel as a plot device is almost always a terrible idea- it turns out time travel makes timelines and series of events really really complicated; who would have thought?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 18, 2024 0:35:07 GMT
I feel like Minrathous was inspired by Byzantine Empire's architecture, rather than Roman Empire's one. Well, since the Byzantine Empire is actually the Eastern Roman Empire both is correct.
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Post by KalleDemos on Jul 18, 2024 1:14:53 GMT
The context of DAI was frostbite and multiplayer. As we know FB was difficult to work with and multiplayer restricted things further with the whole fire/ice/lighting balance thing they were going for. That of course is not the heart of the article. Tho Blood Magic was not a specialization it was never far from the narrative and character stories. Even among the horror there was some nuance. Relegating Blood Magic to 'the evil thing that evil people do' is a considerable shift away from the previous games. Especially considering the setting, potential subject matter and historical relevance Blood Magic has in DATV, this stance by the devs/writers seems like a massive missed opportunity. And Blood Magic or no, lessening player agency and positioning the DATV into a more 'heroic' role is a shift as well. The players should be the ones to decide their protagonist's moral leanings.
blood magic has always been portrayed as being very dangerous and taboo in the series at this point. Just the Warden and Hawke were the 'Exceptions to the Rule' The word of the day is nuance. Yes, Blood Magic is viewed as dangerous and taboo in many societies but not all, and this is not an objective view. And there are no 'exceptions to the rule'. Blood Magic is everywhere, even in the Chantry. Phylacteries, a form of Blood Magic, are a tool used to oppress Mages. seen as a 'good' thing by many. Some Mortalitasi rituals require blood. It is suggested that Blood Magic practices are performed by the Avvar and Chasind to some degree. And there have always been a range of opinions on the subject with more nuanced takes not limited to known Blood Mages like Morrigan and Merrill. And as we know, Blood Magic is not purely destructive. It can be used to heal, it can be used in moderation, it was used to bring back the Griffins and to create the Grey Wardens(DATV setting and plot relevance).
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Post by illuminated11 on Jul 18, 2024 4:24:28 GMT
blood magic has always been portrayed as being very dangerous and taboo in the series at this point. Just the Warden and Hawke were the 'Exceptions to the Rule' The word of the day is nuance. Yes, Blood Magic is viewed as dangerous and taboo in many societies but not all, and this is not an objective view. And there are no 'exceptions to the rule'. Blood Magic is everywhere, even in the Chantry. Phylacteries, a form of Blood Magic, are a tool used to oppress Mages. seen as a 'good' thing by many. Some Mortalitasi rituals require blood. It is suggested that Blood Magic practices are performed by the Avvar and Chasind to some degree. And there have always been a range of opinions on the subject with more nuanced takes not limited to known Blood Mages like Morrigan and Merrill. And as we know, Blood Magic is not purely destructive. It can be used to heal, it can be used in moderation, it was used to bring back the Griffins and to create the Grey Wardens(DATV setting and plot relevance).
The griffons went extinct in the first place because of blood magic. If anything, that proves the point Weekes made, which is that it’s neutral at best. And when they refer to blood magic, they’re specifically referring to how the specialization functioned in Origins, which involved mind control and stealing your allies’ life forces as aspects of the mechanic, without it ever being remarked upon by other characters. Blood magic as a whole isn’t going away. As you yourself note, Mortalitasi necromancers are a ‘socially acceptable’ form of blood magic, because most citizens of Thedas don’t consider spirits to be people. Other characters likely can and will use blood magic, and I imagine it will play a role in the overarching plot of the story. Also I don’t remember Morrigan ever being confirmed as a blood mage. You can spec her as one but this is a function of gameplay. If we went off that logic, Wynne can also be a blood mage, which is patently absurd. In fact, if you take Morrigan into the Fade, she refuses to make any sort of deal with the demon.
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Post by sageoflife on Jul 18, 2024 5:03:13 GMT
The word of the day is nuance. Yes, Blood Magic is viewed as dangerous and taboo in many societies but not all, and this is not an objective view. And there are no 'exceptions to the rule'. Blood Magic is everywhere, even in the Chantry. Phylacteries, a form of Blood Magic, are a tool used to oppress Mages. seen as a 'good' thing by many. Some Mortalitasi rituals require blood. It is suggested that Blood Magic practices are performed by the Avvar and Chasind to some degree. And there have always been a range of opinions on the subject with more nuanced takes not limited to known Blood Mages like Morrigan and Merrill. And as we know, Blood Magic is not purely destructive. It can be used to heal, it can be used in moderation, it was used to bring back the Griffins and to create the Grey Wardens(DATV setting and plot relevance).
The griffons went extinct in the first place because of blood magic. If anything, that proves the point Weekes made, which is that it’s neutral at best. And when they refer to blood magic, they’re specifically referring to how the specialization functioned in Origins, which involved mind control and stealing your ally’s life forces as aspects of the mechanic, without it ever being remarked upon by other characters. Blood magic as a whole isn’t going away. As you yourself note, Mortalitasi necromancers are a ‘socially acceptable’ form of blood magic, because most citizens of Thedas don’t consider spirits to be people. Other characters likely can and will use blood magic, and I imagine it will play a role in the overarching plot of the story. Also I don’t remember Morrigan ever being confirmed as a blood mage. You can spec her as one but this is a function of gameplay. If we went off that logic, Wynne can also be a blood mage, which is patently absurd. In fact, if you take Morrigan into the Fade, she refuses to make any sort of deal with the demon. Morrigan states in Inquisition that some of the things she has learned since Origins can be considered blood magic.
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Post by illuminated11 on Jul 18, 2024 5:07:38 GMT
Ah, my bad then, I must have forgotten that conversation.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 18, 2024 8:06:12 GMT
I remember there was a concept art with some kind of light/magic show and i think it might've looked a bit different from what we saw, but i can't find it. And i'm not even sure if it looked different in the first place. I think you may be remembering the comic series Magekiller. There was a seen from Minrathous in there. I have to admit I raised my eyebrows a bit at the time but it was just in a comic.
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Post by KalleDemos on Jul 19, 2024 2:20:22 GMT
The word of the day is nuance. Yes, Blood Magic is viewed as dangerous and taboo in many societies but not all, and this is not an objective view. And there are no 'exceptions to the rule'. Blood Magic is everywhere, even in the Chantry. Phylacteries, a form of Blood Magic, are a tool used to oppress Mages. seen as a 'good' thing by many. Some Mortalitasi rituals require blood. It is suggested that Blood Magic practices are performed by the Avvar and Chasind to some degree. And there have always been a range of opinions on the subject with more nuanced takes not limited to known Blood Mages like Morrigan and Merrill. And as we know, Blood Magic is not purely destructive. It can be used to heal, it can be used in moderation, it was used to bring back the Griffins and to create the Grey Wardens(DATV setting and plot relevance).
The griffons went extinct in the first place because of blood magic. If anything, that proves the point Weekes made, which is that it’s neutral at best. And when they refer to blood magic, they’re specifically referring to how the specialization functioned in Origins, which involved mind control and stealing your allies’ life forces as aspects of the mechanic, without it ever being remarked upon by other characters. Blood magic as a whole isn’t going away. As you yourself note, Mortalitasi necromancers are a ‘socially acceptable’ form of blood magic, because most citizens of Thedas don’t consider spirits to be people. Other characters likely can and will use blood magic, and I imagine it will play a role in the overarching plot of the story. Also I don’t remember Morrigan ever being confirmed as a blood mage. You can spec her as one but this is a function of gameplay. If we went off that logic, Wynne can also be a blood mage, which is patently absurd. In fact, if you take Morrigan into the Fade, she refuses to make any sort of deal with the demon. The Griffins went extinct because of the Taint and hubris. And no one would be around to complain had The Joining, a Blood Magic ritual, not been created. We know Blood Magic isn't going away. That is not the point. Gameplay wise, it's just a boring choice. And the reasons given only serve to stoke fears that the Dragon Age series is shifting more and more from it's RPG roots. "Blood Magic isn't coming back because it's icky and we don't personally like it. Also it's objectively evil now"(*Insert evil cackling Merrill Gif*); was NEVER going to go over well with many in the fan base and they know that. Player agency has regressed as dev/writer have imposed their own moral leanings on the subject. Narrative wise, players are being denied the opportunity to fully engage in the story, historical and cultural relevancy because choices are being made for us. This shift and stance on Blood Magic is still only a part of a larger pattern that we are concerned with i.e reducing skill slots to three. Dragon Age marketing has rarely ever hit the mark and EA is always scheming up something nasty but the devs/writers are doing themselves no favors here.
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Post by KalleDemos on Jul 19, 2024 2:30:07 GMT
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Post by illuminated11 on Jul 19, 2024 5:11:05 GMT
What a blatantly sensationalist article. The Griffins went extinct because of the Taint and hubris. And no one would be around to complain had The Joining, a Blood Magic ritual, not been created. We know Blood Magic isn't going away. That is not the point. Gameplay wise, it's just a boring choice.
Yes, the hubris of using blood magic to force the griffons to continue fighting darkspawn, don't try and undersell it. The point of blood magic has always been that it has unintended consequences, this is also true with Merrill. But those unintended consequences never manifest for the player. Player agency without consequences is meaningless.
And I'm glad you agree blood mages are boring. I too always found its conception in Origins to be something written by an edgy teenager that listens to far too much Marilyn Manson.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jul 19, 2024 20:33:43 GMT
Oh wow they got rid of Blood Magic, an evil form of magic that I hated and never played as a blood mage even when I played as a mage. Sorry but I could care less about one way or the other about this since I prefer to play as a rouge, because mages have glass heads.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Jul 19, 2024 23:14:47 GMT
You won't be able to be a Templar in Veilguard. Why aren't people making a big fuss about that?
There's nothing special about Blood Magic in gameplay, other than the concept of using health for spells, and that doesn't really feel necessary in a game where you only have 3 slottable abilities with most of your actives not using a resource.
Otherwise the spells are pretty basic (control spells can be done in other ways), and the player has never been able to employ it in a way that is demonstrated by NPCs.
Absolutely nothing has been lost, other than possible RP, and there are new ways to RP.
Beyond that, they said there will be an actual lore reason to not employ Blood Magic. I feel it might be that Blood Magic is essentially the ancient elf magic employed by the Evanuris.
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Post by githcheater on Jul 20, 2024 0:12:35 GMT
You won't be able to be a Templar in Veilguard. Why aren't people making a big fuss about that? There's nothing special about Blood Magic in gameplay, other than the concept of using health for spells, and that doesn't really feel necessary in a game where you only have 3 slottable abilities with most of your actives not using a resource. Otherwise the spells are pretty basic (control spells can be done in other ways), and the player has never been able to employ it in a way that is demonstrated by NPCs. Absolutely nothing has been lost, other than possible RP, and there are new ways to RP. Beyond that, they said there will be an actual lore reason to not employ Blood Magic. I feel it might be that Blood Magic is essentially the ancient elf magic employed by the Evanuris. Will that actual lore reason not to employ blood magic come across as authentic, or as forced guidance to morally play the game the "correct" way? Removing blood magic takes away player agency and limits roleplay opportunities. Will there be other ways that roleplaying agency be limited because the subject is considered taboo and off limits? For example, perhaps appeasing slavers could possibly be convenient for achieving story goals? ... or will inconvenient dark topics like slavery be ignored or whitewashed because it is not the story "they want to tell". My concern is that grey areas might be eliminated from the game because they might be "too controversial." How sanitized will VeilGuard be? I can't wait to meet Davrin the "green" warden.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Jul 20, 2024 0:21:08 GMT
You won't be able to be a Templar in Veilguard. Why aren't people making a big fuss about that? There's nothing special about Blood Magic in gameplay, other than the concept of using health for spells, and that doesn't really feel necessary in a game where you only have 3 slottable abilities with most of your actives not using a resource. Otherwise the spells are pretty basic (control spells can be done in other ways), and the player has never been able to employ it in a way that is demonstrated by NPCs. Absolutely nothing has been lost, other than possible RP, and there are new ways to RP. Beyond that, they said there will be an actual lore reason to not employ Blood Magic. I feel it might be that Blood Magic is essentially the ancient elf magic employed by the Evanuris. Will that actual lore reason not to employ blood magic come across as authentic, or as forced guidance to morally play the game the "correct" way? Removing blood magic takes away player agency and limits roleplay opportunities. Will there be other ways that roleplaying agency be limited because the subject is considered taboo and off limits? For example, perhaps appeasing slavers could possibly be convenient for achieving story goals? ... or will inconvenient dark topics like slavery be ignored or whitewashed because it is not the story "they want to tell". My concern is that grey areas might be eliminated from the game because they might be "too controversial." I can't wait to meet Davrin the "green" warden. People keep talking about taking away player agency and limiting roleplay as if nothing was added in return. Not being able to do something you could do in previous iterations is not exactly unique to Dragon Age, and given that there are newer RP opportunities and way to exercise agency, the assertion is fundamentally incorrect. As for morality, they clearly have no qualms with you RP'ing in what is traditionally considered evil, with the inclusion of the Necromancer and Reaper classes, both of which involve sucking the life out of people and making it your own. Blood Magic has just never been utilized by the PC properly. Better to just avoid having the player engage it when it cannot be properly supported. Like Hawke could be a Blood Mage (my canon Hawke is exactly that), but outside of combat it had no application or recognition. It was ironically immersion breaking at times.
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Post by KalleDemos on Jul 20, 2024 0:55:13 GMT
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Post by colfoley on Jul 20, 2024 1:26:40 GMT
You won't be able to be a Templar in Veilguard. Why aren't people making a big fuss about that? There's nothing special about Blood Magic in gameplay, other than the concept of using health for spells, and that doesn't really feel necessary in a game where you only have 3 slottable abilities with most of your actives not using a resource. Otherwise the spells are pretty basic (control spells can be done in other ways), and the player has never been able to employ it in a way that is demonstrated by NPCs. Absolutely nothing has been lost, other than possible RP, and there are new ways to RP. Beyond that, they said there will be an actual lore reason to not employ Blood Magic. I feel it might be that Blood Magic is essentially the ancient elf magic employed by the Evanuris. yeah its been something I've been dancing around for awhile and still not sure how legitimate this is en masse but you have helped crystallize things. Despite bad Templars, Templars are viewed within the world as being really moral, law and order, good, and from a player oriented perspective they are assciated with faith which typically in terms of class has positive connotations. Meanwhile blood magic is the exact opposite. So as much as people cry about wanting morally gray choices seems people just want to be evil and then turn around and complement Bioware for their moral grayness. it's only unfair to the first three games if you are looking for things to consider unfair.
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illuminated11
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Post by illuminated11 on Jul 20, 2024 1:29:36 GMT
Much of this has next to nothing to do with blood magic, but okay.
And... people have constantly lambasted the combat in these games. Inquisition tries to be a strange hybrid that doesn't work at all, and the wave system of 2 ruins any merit the faster paced combat might benefit from. There are people that enjoy Origins combat, and I would consider it the strongest of the three, but personally I find it very slow and the amount of tactics needed to win are vastly overstated; moreover, whenever I play a melee character, chances are I'm going to be spending more time playing as Morrigan or Wynne than my character. Not because I can't win with a melee character, but because the set ups for melee are always the same and incredibly boring. DW rogue is probably the first time I've felt differently, because I need to micromanage fairly often for backstabs, but even there the setups very quickly flowchart the same way every time. RTwP is a heavily outdated system that existed primarily as a stopgap between action and turn based. I can't remember the last time Bioware made a turn based game like BG3 or Rogue Trader, so that just seems like a total nonstarter. I admit I will miss being able to control the rest of the party, and that memes like Blackwall soloing high dragons are no longer going to be a thing, but everything else about the change to action genuinely seems like a change for the better.
As for the companions remark, I consider it a gaffe, but I also think people are way overstating what was actually meant by that quote. They're just excited and feel like they've made the best companions yet. There's no shame in having confidence in your new work.
Most of the interesting moral quandaries in the past three games had very little to do with blood magic, so equating blood magic to morality seems strange to me. The bargain with the demon for Connor has no narrative impact in the game itself, it's yet another example of the warden getting to do something terrible without any consequence. There's only benefit. Hell, in that instance, you don't even have the disapproval of your companions as any sort of check, because they aren't there to witness it! At least if you kill Connor, you actually have to confront Isolde on the matter, you have to see how devastated she is by your decision. That's an actual moral conundrum, that's what gray morality actually looks like. Drama, pathos, catharsis. And you can still have questions around magic and ethics without it involving blood magic. Solas hates necromancers and you can talk to Cole about it as well, in Inquisition, where he clearly disapproves. I don't understand why people are so convinced a blood magic specialization is needed to have these debates.
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Post by githcheater on Jul 20, 2024 1:31:26 GMT
" ... the key to a lot of nasty stuff we aren't interested in having heroes do," Weekes said... but reading up on blood magic (and magic in general) – which is a contentious topic throughout all three Dragon Age games – has got me reflecting on how the series has let us explore morality in past, and what Weekes' words could imply for The Veilguard.
... an uncomfortable trend in the way BioWare developers have been talking about the project: that is, dogging on the old games to make the new one sound cool.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 20, 2024 1:37:47 GMT
" ... the key to a lot of nasty stuff we aren't interested in having heroes do," Weekes said
... but reading up on blood magic (and magic in general) – which is a contentious topic throughout all three Dragon Age games – has got me reflecting on how the series has let us explore morality in past, and what Weekes' words could imply for The Veilguard.
... an uncomfortable trend in the way BioWare developers have been talking about the project: that is, dogging on the old games to make the new one sound cool.
I mean I don't consider one comment from Darrah which is still pretty value neutral to be a 'trend'.
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